Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Blodpls

I doubt that, it's probably a standard Greek NDA thats already been successfully tested in Greek court.

That's great. However, it wouldn't stand up in a court outside of Greece, which is the point. It's laughable on its face.

It might be laughable to you but it wouldn't be laughable to anyone in the EU and being that is where the game is launching this is probably where the majority of the testers are.

Originally posted by Aragon100

Yup. Its a legal contract you sign so if you break it you just have to face the consequences.

That's just it-- for anyone outside of Greece, it's not legal at all, because people who are not citizens of Greece are not beholden to Greek law or Greek jurisdiction.

Find me any lawyer in England, or the States, or Germany, or anywhere outside of Greece who wouldn't fight that NDA or the jurisdiction clauses, and I'll show you a lawyer that should have their license to practice revoked. That NDA is a joke and wouldn't hold up in court anywhere outside of Athens.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Blodpls

I doubt that, it's probably a standard Greek NDA thats already been successfully tested in Greek court.

That's great. However, it wouldn't stand up in a court outside of Greece, which is the point. It's laughable on its face.

It might be laughable to you but it wouldn't be laughable to anyone in the EU and being that is where the game is launching this is probably where the majority of the testers are.

Yup, as a citizen of a EU country just as Greece is you wouldnt find this a laughing matter.

Originally posted by Blodpls

It might be laughable to you but it wouldn't be laughable to anyone in the EU and being that is where the game is launching this is probably where the majority of the testers are.

Yeah, right. As if a citizen of any other country in the EU wouldn't fight that jurisdiction clause tooth and nail.

If that's the real NDA, it's a joke, even in the EU. It wouldn't be held up in court because anyone outside of Greece would fight it, and would fight the notion that they, as a citizen of whatever other country are somehow beholden to Greek law and must therefore pay money to a game company.

Originally posted by Aragon100

Originally posted by Blodpls

I doubt that, it's probably a standard Greek NDA thats already been successfully tested in Greek court.

Yup. Its a legal contract you sign so if you break it you just have to face the consequences.

It will not be cheap id tell you.

And the money will be taken out of your account no matter you like it or not.

Your assumptions could not be further from the truth.

1) While a contract between two parties, it does not automatically make it legally binding. If the contract is found in violation of current laws, it is voided. Since this particular contract says Aventurine does not have to provide any proof of breach... I would say it is not legally binding.

2) Cheap is a relative term. Aventurine regardless of what it states in the contract would have to prove damages of some kind and then prove the defendant caused them. If they fail it opens the door for a counter suit (not neccessarily in Greece) and Aventurine could be held accountable for legal fees.

3) Money cannot be removed from an account outside a courts jurisdiction without legal consent by the nation the banking institution and account are legally subject to. This would give adaquate time for the funds to be removed from those institutions unless a freeze was put in place. This would be highly unusual since the damages would likely be minimal.

You are looking at this like it is some huge international crime. This is a standard contract dispute and not even a blip on the radar for international law. The chances any significant actions would be taken is remote to say the least. Aventurine would be better served just banning the offender from their game until release. After that point it would be difficult and unprofitable to ban them permanently. Especially for an indy company without the legal or funding muscle needed to really put the screws to someone.

Originally posted by Aragon100

Yup, as a citizen of a EU country just as Greece is you wouldnt find this a laughing matter.

Sure I would.

If I was French, or German, or whatever, I'd scoff at the idea that I owe money to a Greek game company over a screenshot, or a blog post about Darkfall or whatever. As a citizen of another country, I'm not automatically beholden to the laws in Greece. Jurisdiction would have to be proven first, and that would cost time and money that Aventurine doesn't have.

If someone outside of Greece is stupid enough to roll over and accept that agreement on its face should Aventurine come after them, they might as well have the word IDIOT tattooed on their forehead.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Aragon100

Yup. Its a legal contract you sign so if you break it you just have to face the consequences.

That's just it-- for anyone outside of Greece, it's not legal at all, because people who are not citizens of Greece are not beholden to Greek law or Greek jurisdiction.

Find me any lawyer in England, or the States, or Germany, or anywhere outside of Greece who wouldn't fight that NDA or the jurisdiction clauses, and I'll show you a lawyer that should have their license to practice revoked. That NDA is a joke and wouldn't hold up in court anywhere outside of Athens.

Ok, lets say youre right. Then you would disqualify yourself to travel to Greece for many years cause you broke some NDA?

Is that a price worth to pay?

I doubt many would like to take a chance with this Darkfall NDA. I wouldnt.

Originally posted by Lidane 

Yeah, right. As if a citizen of any other country in the EU wouldn't fight that jurisdiction clause tooth and nail.

If that's the real NDA, it's a joke, even in the EU. It wouldn't be held up in court because anyone outside of Greece would fight it, and would fight the notion that they, as a citizen of whatever other country are somehow beholden to Greek law and must therefore pay money to a game company.

Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.

This was in 2000 as far as I know it much easier to do this now: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/872532.stm

Originally posted by Kurt00

Originally posted by daarco

I dont know where you live...but in the EU,  YOU SHOW UP to court.

Why? When nothing can happen to you when you don't.

In any place in the world if you dont' show up to court a warrent is issued for your arrest and you WILL face charges and you WILL go to jail for skipping out on court.

I love children who think they know the law

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by Lidane 

Yeah, right. As if a citizen of any other country in the EU wouldn't fight that jurisdiction clause tooth and nail.

If that's the real NDA, it's a joke, even in the EU. It wouldn't be held up in court because anyone outside of Greece would fight it, and would fight the notion that they, as a citizen of whatever other country are somehow beholden to Greek law and must therefore pay money to a game company.

 

Anyone the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.

This was in 2000 as far as I know it much easier to do this now: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/872532.stm

 

Yup agree.

It's so funny reading these wannabe attourneys claiming this and claiming that without any clue about the legal system of EU or Greece.

Originally posted by Aragon100

Ok, lets say youre right. Then you would disqualify yourself to travel to Greece for many years cause you broke some NDA?

Breaking an NDA =/= breaking an actual law. I highly doubt the Greek government would ban me from entering the country because I posted a Darkfall screenshot or whatever.

If I was a terrorist, or a serious criminal threat to Greece? Sure, I could see them banning me, but over an NDA? Get real.

Is that a price worth to pay?

You've got to be kidding. The Greek government has other problems to deal with, like those recent riots they had. Aventurine's problems would be the absolute least of their worries.

I doubt many would like to take a chance with this Darkfall NDA. I wouldnt.

That NDA has as much legal weight as the DO NOT REMOVE tags on your mattress. It's a joke, and anyone scared of that NDA is kidding themselves. 

Originally posted by atziluth

I don't see many thing that are unusual here with their "NDA". The couple of things of note...

1) Having the NDA be binding for 5 years after termination of the beta test. This makes absolutely no sense as the NDA becomes voided once the NDA is lifted. It would never hold up in court and they know it. Why put it in unless either the presented NDA is a fake or Aventurine has no clue what they are doing.

2) Saying that any court proceedings will be under Greece jurisdiction. They well know that they cannot enforce national law if that law is not recognised by the nation that the defendant is a part of. Again this contract holds no weight outside of Greece.

3) They put in a provision that some of the NDA could be found not legally binding. So they themselves acknowledge that parts of this NDA would not hold up in court. This is rather standard however because NDAs and EULAs are difficult to prosecute with.

4) Aventurine implies in the NDA that they do not have to prove and damages in a court, that the court must recognize any breach as irreprable damage with no adaquate monetary value. This is completely untrue and holds no weight in a court of law. In fact this could be used against Aventurine as unreasonable expectations and likely help get the case thrown out.

 

If this circulating NDA is in fact a true document, then it is nothing more then smoke and mirrors. The true legal value of the document is suspect at best and would cost Aventurine far more to enforce then to actually allow breaches. It was a good laugh though.

You saying that the contract is only binding in Greece is just wrong.  International copy write law? 

Last time I checked Greece is a recognized nation from everyone's point of view, so if they want to extradite you to their country to try to seek legal compensation they would have every right to do so, and most countries would turn you over for breaking international law.

You kids and your knowledge of law...

its all "It can't happen to me, I'm am American!"   Lawl?

Originally posted by Blodpls

Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.

I've highlighted the relevant phrase.

You're talking about commission of a crime. Breaking an NDA isn't a crime. It might be an ethical violation of a contract, but that's not a criminal offense. It's a civil one.

I suggest going back and learning the difference between civil and criminal law. NDA's are subject to CIVIL law because they are contracts, not criminal law.

Originally posted by Lidane 

I've highlighted the relevant phrase.

You're talking about commission of a crime. Breaking an NDA isn't a crime. It might be an ethical violation of a contract, but that's not a criminal offense. It's a civil one.

I suggest going back and learning the difference between civil and criminal law. NDA's are subject to CIVIL law because they are contracts, not criminal law.

If you were told to pay to damages and you refused it wouldn't be a civil matter anymore.  Anyway I said they DO NOT NEED PROOF of a crime just for the judge to make the request.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Aragon100

Ok, lets say youre right. Then you would disqualify yourself to travel to Greece for many years cause you broke some NDA?

Breaking an NDA =/= breaking an actual law. I highly doubt the Greek government would ban me from entering the country because I posted a Darkfall screenshot or whatever.

If I was a terrorist, or a serious criminal threat to Greece? Sure, I could see them banning me, but over an NDA? Get real.

Is that a price worth to pay?

You've got to be kidding. The Greek government has other problems to deal with, like those recent riots they had. Aventurine's problems would be the absolute least of their worries.

I doubt many would like to take a chance with this Darkfall NDA. I wouldnt.

That NDA has as much legal weight as the DO NOT REMOVE tags on your mattress. It's a joke, and anyone scared of that NDA is kidding themselves. 

 

You will be in their system and it will show when you enter the airport and you will have to face consequences and visit their courts. This is about money and they take that serious.

If its established you caused the company Aventurine losses you will pay a fine, end of story.

Originally posted by Jerid13

You saying that the contract is only binding in Greece is just wrong.  International copy write law? 

Breaking an NDA =/= copyright violation. Try again.

And there's no way that the Greek government would extradite an American citizen over a civil court case, which is what breaking an NDA amounts to.  Any American lawyer -- or any EU lawyer for that matter -- would fight like hell over any attempts to extradite someone over something as minor as an NDA.

Seriously. You guys need to learn the difference between civil and criminal law, and about proportionality. There's no way that the States or any country in the EU would allow their citizens to be extradited to another country like a criminal over violating a video game NDA.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Blodpls

Anyone in the EU can be deported to any other EU country with no proof of committing a crime, it just needs a judge in the country where the prosecution is taking place to authorise it. They can also send international bailiffs to take you property.

I've highlighted the relevant phrase.

You're talking about commission of a crime. Breaking an NDA isn't a crime. It might be an ethical violation of a contract, but that's not a criminal offense. It's a civil one.

I suggest going back and learning the difference between civil and criminal law. NDA's are subject to CIVIL law because they are contracts, not criminal law.

Breaking a, wait let me highlight it for you,  LEGAL, Document is normally viewed as a crime, ya know?

Their contract is a binding and legal doccument, its the same as if you just left your apartment and broke hte lease, you would be subject to fiscal resoncibility.

If you break the NDA and they can find a way to prove you messed with their earning potential they will sue you for all your worth.

Originally posted by Blodpls

If you were told to pay to damages and you refused it wouldn't be a civil matter anymore.  Anyway I said they DO NOT NEED PROOF of a crime just for the judge to make the request.

I hope you're not a lawyer. You're delusional if you think that would stand up in any court outside of Greece.

Originally posted by Jerid13

Breaking a, wait let me highlight it for you,  LEGAL, Document is normally viewed as a crime, ya know?

Please learn the difference between civil and criminal law. And please learn about jurisdiction.

That NDA is laughable on its face. I can find a bunch of loopholes in it,and I've only taken a couple of business law classes. A real lawyer could shred that NDA like a cat attacking a toilet paper roll.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Blodpls

If you were told to pay to damages and you refused it wouldn't be a civil matter anymore.  Anyway I said they DO NOT NEED PROOF of a crime just for the judge to make the request.

I hope you're not a lawyer. You're delusional if you think that would stand up in any court outside of Greece.

It you were told to pay damages in Texas and you then went New York they wouldn't bother pursuing it?  Of course they would and you would end up in whole world of trouble.  It's the same in the EU.