In star wars galaxies I wrote my own book. I made my own story. I quested if i wanted. Hunted for resources to fill a contract from a crafter. I did pvp if a bounty hunter dared find me. I explored the depths of each planet. The story never ended.

The Old Republic sounds like the complete opposite of that. Im reading someone else' book. Im following their story. Yes i can choose different story arcs within that story, but its still someone else tale. And once I complete that last quest the story ends (and thus the game for me)

The worst part is Im forced into the role of "hero" I dont want to be the hero and I dont want to be forced to quest.

SWG worked because it gave us both options. There were quests but the npc didnt have those "hey talk to me" marks above their heads. You actually had to explore and find the npcs that ga ve out quests. Or you could just skip questing alltogether and do your own thing.

Bioware is making the same mistake Funcom did with Age of Conan. The game was great for the first 20 levels but once the story fizzled so did the game. In short, no developer can make a theme park experience fun forever unless they constantly add content every week.

Sorry Bioware, I love your single player games but this is a different animal. In MMO's I want to play in a virtual world, not be some hero clone like everyone else.
 

I sure hope Bioware reconsiders this whole story-driven Im the hero theme

And you come to this deduction based off the failure of the many story-driven MMO's that have been out there I suppose? Oh wait...there are none.

Listen, if you can't live with a story-driven MMO, that is perfectly acceptable. But why...why do you all have to foretell doom and gloom for the game as a whole, mh? Why? Do you truly think there is no one out there who will enjoy playing the story (possibly even in multiple ways, since it won't be linear) and then enjoy the endgame content of RvR or PvP or Raiding or whatever will be offered and the person likes? 

Seriously, I'm sorry this is not the game for you, but to say it will fail/has no appeal in general because -you- don't like it is simply...wrong.

You do know if you wanna make a statement about how you think the next SW MMO should be you would be better off posting that in the official TOR forums were the developers or more likely to see it. I will have to say though that plenty other SWG vets have overstated their case enough to the point where it will just be redundant.

Look, no one really knows exactly what systems will be in this game yet because they have yet to announce much of anything. This is about it. And even after they confirm some things we have no idea how it will actually play out till the game launches.
 

I picked up Mass Effect for Christmas. Great game - played through twice. For my $50 it was around 15 to 20 hours play time each time through.

If Bioware can deliver the same story/gameplay and I pay $15 a month for 40 hours play time - I say go for it.

As long as I can group with other people.

Traditionally the HERO save the universe type games have been the domain of single player games. I am interested to see if Bioware can pull this off.

I like to play the hero - but its not very heroic if 30 seconds after I finish a quest it resets so the next person can do it.

On the flip-side I understand different people want to do different things in games - so the game needs to be more than a focus on story. I would like to see crafting, the ability to explore, areas for socializing etc.

Bioware have said the game will have more content than a lot of their single player games combined. So thats a lot of content. I hope they deliver.

They also said there will be different quests for different classes - so if they can deliver that - I get to try alts and replayability.

PvP in some sort or other from having Sith vs Jedi.

I am happy to wait for more information and see how it pans out.

I think a lot of what you are hearing now is to not scare off the mass of people who play every other type of MMO. Lets face it, if they said "It's a game like pre-cu SWG" Most people wouldn't even give it a second look, except for ex-swg players. But that's doesn't mean there won't be something in the game for everyone, like they have hinted at.

Originally posted by singsofdeath

And you come to this deduction based off the failure of the many story-driven MMO's that have been out there I suppose? Oh wait...there are none.

 

Listen, if you can't live with a story-driven MMO, that is perfectly acceptable. But why...why do you all have to foretell doom and gloom for the game as a whole, mh? Why? Do you truly think there is no one out there who will enjoy playing the story (possibly even in multiple ways, since it won't be linear) and then enjoy the endgame content of RvR or PvP or Raiding or whatever will be offered and the person likes? 

 

Seriously, I'm sorry this is not the game for you, but to say it will fail/has no appeal in general because -you- don't like it is simply...wrong.

If your defining "story-driven" as only quests where you have a choice then yes TOR will be unique. I personally dont make that distinction. I consider all MMO's that focus on questing as story-driven. No I cant actually choose a different reaction within a quest like TOR will offer but so what. Its still at its core no different than WoW or any other clone like it. Its focus is quests / story.

The majority of today's MMO's are story-driven MMO's. Most recent are Lord of the Rings and Age of Conan. Ironically both have flopped but LOTR has received numerous awards because it is a decent quality game. 

WoW is also story-driven. The entire game till lvl 80 is quest based, which is where your story comes from. Skip the quests and you dont get the story.

These games have no long-term appeal to me anyway. Like I said, once ive done the quests the game is over. The only option is to sit around and wait for the developer to add more stories / quests.And when those are done, its wait some more. This is the fatal flaw of quest-based games. Without constantly adding new content, the game gets boring.

LOTR is a prime example. Great graphics, great quests, clean bug-free, but i never can play for longer than a month at a time because i run out of things to do.

In a virtual world MMO like SWG I never ran out of things to do. Had SOE fixed that game and didnt overhaul it, Id still be there. Instead Im playing these entertaining but short-term games.

Age of Conan was also heavily story driven. And it had a pretty dam good story and nice quests. But once you left the island after lvl 20 the game totally died.

Will people stick around once they burn through the content of TOR ? Not if the game is focused on stories. There wont be anything left to do once the story is done

Players stick around games like EVE and SWG (Before the changes) because there is no true endgame

Originally posted by tillamook

I think a lot of what you are hearing now is to not scare off the mass of people who play every other type of MMO. Lets face it, if they said "It's a game like pre-cu SWG" Most people wouldn't even give it a second look, except for ex-swg players. But that's doesn't mean there won't be something in the game for everyone, like they have hinted at.

if they add non-combat classes id be sold. If they let me do things besides follow a questline Id definitely play.

However frm what Im reading, their idea of something for everyone is being able to make choices within quests and having different quests for each class. Maybe some people think those options make for a replayable game but not me.

It makes for a replayable singler player game. But for an MMO ? I dont want to find myself finishing the game and so rerolling a new toon to see a different reaction from an npc if i choose option B instead of A from a storyline. I did that in WoW and yes it got me to play a little longer than I did in other theme park games but in the end I still quit.

Maybe thats the point in these MMO's today. Maybe the devs dont really care or design for a 10yr commitment from players anymore.

I remain open to the possiblity that this will be an amazing game but being a fan of Virtual Worlds over theme parks I remain skeptical about TOR. I think Star Trek Online will be closer to SWG than TOR will be

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Originally posted by singsofdeath
And you come to this deduction based off the failure of the many story-driven MMO's that have been out there I suppose? Oh wait...there are none.

Listen, if you can't live with a story-driven MMO, that is perfectly acceptable. But why...why do you all have to foretell doom and gloom for the game as a whole, mh? Why? Do you truly think there is no one out there who will enjoy playing the story (possibly even in multiple ways, since it won't be linear) and then enjoy the endgame content of RvR or PvP or Raiding or whatever will be offered and the person likes?

Seriously, I'm sorry this is not the game for you, but to say it will fail/has no appeal in general because -you- don't like it is simply...wrong.

---

There are many, MANY, story-driven MMOs out there right now.

WoW, LotRO, AoC, DDO are just some big names. And they, despite what some people here seem to think of them, carry most of the clout right now in the MMO community. So yes, there are alot of people play story-driven MMOs.

I'm with the OP. A good story is essential and fun in almost all single-player games. I do not, however, really want that in an MMO. I like the idea of some quests to give a feel for the lore, especially for roleplayers, but the focus of the game cannot be the story; it cannot, as the OP said, FORCE players to become heroes. Hell, in WoW, even the undead warlock who takes on a quest early on to do research about how to end all life will later on do many quests to save the world, and protect the light. That's BS. It's a load of bollocks and I don't like it.

While having some stories to set the players in the world, the players need to have the ability to write their own stories and not have it run counter to what happens in the game if the game wants to keep players.

A good example of this is AoC. All players start out as a slave. Now, I know it’s a rough world in the prehistoric world Howard made for us, and I love that world, but that is just ridiculous. We can’t all be slaves at some point, and we can’t all end up being legends.

This is why sandbox games from years past are the games people still bring up as having been great. Because they were, and no matter how great another game is, if you can’t be the character you want (even if you don’t role play, if you can’t be the kind of person you want), many people won’t stay very long. I know I cannot. I finish the game, and just like a single player game...I have beaten it. When I beat a game, that’s it. I’m done. I win.

You have to make a game you can’t beat.

The Witcher was great, Mass effect was great, Bioware is great.

It's a game it's supposed to have story that why its so fun! Long term appeal? So the story will end so what? In other games all you do is kill 10 foxes every quest.

Originally posted by tillamook

I think a lot of what you are hearing now is to not scare off the mass of people who play every other type of MMO. Lets face it, if they said "It's a game like pre-cu SWG" Most people wouldn't even give it a second look, except for ex-swg players. But that's doesn't mean there won't be something in the game for everyone, like they have hinted at.

Till, love ya like a brother from another mother, but I have to whole-heartedly disagree with your statement here. From what they have told us so far as to what elements they are putting in the game the only part that I was waiting to here about was the crafting part. The remarks by Vogel in his interview when asked about crafting paired with a couple of words about philopshy in general by Walton have pretty much assured me that this game has nothing for me.

There won't be something for everyone in TOR and while it is fair to say that about every game, true, we are talking specifically about TOR here. Crafting in an MMO should not be comparable in scope/breadth to, oh, say the crafting available in the Neverwinter Nights series of games. Crafting in those games, if you put things in pie format (mmm, pie) was maybe 10 to 15 percent of the overall game pie. Crafting in SWG (pre NGE) was probably 35 to 40 percent of the overall game pie with the number of different things you could make and dynamic resources fitting into the crafting equation, etc.

Creation and building..."things" is apart of a world. A strong aspect of that part of "living in any world" should be a desirable trait that any MMO company, no matter the license, should strive for. To date, the only crafting systems that have made it into that ballpark are SWG(pre NGE), UO, AC1, EQ1 (I'm thinking about all the combinations that could happen with making arrows as an example) and EvE.

It's unfortunate, but crafting has become a red-headed step child (no offense to you forum goers who fit that description) mechanic in this genre. Notice in the games I mention 3 of the 5 are first generation games and the remaining two are second. None of the recent games can compare to the scope these games offered in that area in my opinion.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

 

---

Originally posted by singsofdeath
And you come to this deduction based off the failure of the many story-driven MMO's that have been out there I suppose? Oh wait...there are none.

Listen, if you can't live with a story-driven MMO, that is perfectly acceptable. But why...why do you all have to foretell doom and gloom for the game as a whole, mh? Why? Do you truly think there is no one out there who will enjoy playing the story (possibly even in multiple ways, since it won't be linear) and then enjoy the endgame content of RvR or PvP or Raiding or whatever will be offered and the person likes?

Seriously, I'm sorry this is not the game for you, but to say it will fail/has no appeal in general because -you- don't like it is simply...wrong.

---

 

There are many, MANY, story-driven MMOs out there right now.

WoW, LotRO, AoC, DDO are just some big names. And they, despite what some people here seem to think of them, carry most of the clout right now in the MMO community. So yes, there are alot of people play story-driven MMOs.

I'm with the OP. A good story is essential and fun in almost all single-player games. I do not, however, really want that in an MMO. I like the idea of some quests to give a feel for the lore, especially for roleplayers, but the focus of the game cannot be the story; it cannot, as the OP said, FORCE players to become heroes. Hell, in WoW, even the undead warlock who takes on a quest early on to do research about how to end all life will later on do many quests to save the world, and protect the light. That's BS. It's a load of bollocks and I don't like it.

While having some stories to set the players in the world, the players need to have the ability to write their own stories and not have it run counter to what happens in the game if the game wants to keep players.

A good example of this is AoC. All players start out as a slave. Now, I know it’s a rough world in the prehistoric world Howard made for us, and I love that world, but that is just ridiculous. We can’t all be slaves at some point, and we can’t all end up being legends.

This is why sandbox games from years past are the games people still bring up as having been great. Because they were, and no matter how great another game is, if you can’t be the character you want (even if you don’t role play, if you can’t be the kind of person you want), many people won’t stay very long. I know I cannot. I finish the game, and just like a single player game...I have beaten it. When I beat a game, that’s it. I’m done. I win.

You have to make a game you can’t beat.

Curious how you managed to reply to me without at any time, actually replying to the points I made.

Yes, I understand quite well what -YOU- do not like. I understand fully well that you do not think Story-Driven Gameplay is for you. And i understand that it is you -OPINION- that this game will fail because of that.

What i said was that you have no idea if that is true. I said that there are people out there who enjoy the thought of a game where they follow a rich and at least partially non-linear storyline (which -is- new, no matter how much you want to deny it), and then, when "done" with the story, venture into RVR, PVP, socializing, raiding...whatever the game offers and they enjoy.

You completely dismiss the possibility that there are a lot of people who look forward to this when you say that a story-driven MMO -cannot- work. And since you have no proof to support your theory, I was asking you to stop predicting doom.

You have your opinion and your mentality. You do not like a story-driven MMO. You do not want to play one. That#s fine and understandable, because people are different. Me, I am -really- looking forward to the story-line aspect. And then later to the fun in RvR and PvP, plus the socializing with other people. See. Just as valid as your opinion.

Story driven theme parks have no long-term appeal? Apparently, neither did SWG pre-CU. It lost over half of its initial subscription base shortly after launch, and was bleeding an average of 10,000 subscribers per month after that.

BTW, I'm not personally a fan, but I think there's around 11.5 million players who might disagree with your opinion regarding theme parks.

---

Originally posted by nightwing70

 

The Witcher was great, Mass effect was great, Bioware is great.
 
It's a game it's supposed to have story that why its so fun! Long term appeal? So the story will end so what? In other games all you do is kill 10 foxes every quest.

---

 
and this will be no different, execpt maybe it will be more boss fights.
The reason that SWG "failed" was because of bugs, and then SoE alienated its reaming base with NGE

Not that there are any mechanics known about TOR as of now. But given the current trends in any current MMO, is the OP really so far out of context?

The story line aspect might actually offer people the sand box feel they want; however, there will have to be so many options, people will have to be able to pick neutrality, the quest can never be able to dry up , nor the option from becoming corrupted, neutral, or noble can be removed (basically no end result, constant evolution). If Bioware can pull this off then this game will have a greater appeal and may draw in some of the sandbox crowd, but only time will tell. Peron ally, I'm interested in trying the game out, but I'll be disappointed if the character evolution has a stopping point and if there isn't in depth PvP system.

And for the love of god do not make this game auto attack and non active combat. A lot of games are going toward more active combat  and I know there are lots of AoC fans/hates that have admitted they were spolied by the system. It truly is the next-phase in MMO development and new games should be apart of it or be left in the dust

In the current MMO climate I would be happy just to have a decent MMO, it doesn't have to perfect but just something I can sink my teeth into again. Whether it's linear or sandbox, I've simply been itching for a good MMO to play again.

I totally understand the want for a GALAXY OF FREEDOM over a GALAXY OF WEBBED TRAINTRACKS.  Anything less is only limiting your choices of HOW you want to play out the game... the former enables you to play it however you want.

To be fair, we don't know just how much freedom we will have in SWTOR.

It's perfectly fine for a single player offline game to be a 'theme park' type experience. But, in my opinion it is utter failure and completely against what a massively multiplayer online role playing game should be if it doesn't allow players the freedoms of a 'simulated existance'. It goes against the very essence of the IDEA of MMORPG's and is stagnant rathert han evolving. We've seen a 'DE-EVOLUTION' of the genre in a lot of cases. An oversimplification, if you will.

BioWare have already stated however, that SWTOR will be an entertainment experience and not a simulation. Well, it damn well better be an entertainment experience, no GAME can succeed if it weren't... but I think what they're trying to do is make it VERY CINEMATIC through storytelling. That's all fine and dandy, but IF the game plays out like a series of 'mini-movies', it might as well be a single player game with multiplayer capability, which is what many people were hoping for with KOTOR III [Kind of like NEVERWINTER NIGHTS].

OP, I hear ya and share your feelings more or less. To me, the perfect Star Wars MMORPG would have BioWare's development style mate with SWG's and produce 'the best of both'. An open galaxy of freedom, filled with adventure, excitement, choices and deep role playing.

SWG [pre-cu, nge for those whom need that even mentioned...] Strengths:

-Completely explorable large worlds
-Great crafting which is still considered among the best in MMORPG standards
-Good artistic vision/style
-Great early skill / career system
-Planetary and Space vehigles

Weaknesses:
-Pretty terrible 'storytelling'
-Weak combat
-'Overcomplicated' for the mass market
-With the exception of sandbox elements, the game is basically just another soulless grind

BioWare Strengths:
-The best STORYTELLING in the gaming industry
-Decent crafting in KOTOR at least
-Usually top-notch artistic vision/style [I say usually because I'm not yet won over by the childish cartoony avatars which I feel detract from immersion into the Star Wars setting, but I do love the backgrounds which seem perfectly Star Wars]
-CHOICES that matter and rewards/consequences that affect the player
-MEANINGFUL depth in gaming experience, making the player actually care about their characters

CONS:
-Have never done a 'sandbox style' experience like Fallout 3, SWG, the later GTA games. All their games are basically 'zoned' because they're single player games meant to keep you on track. However, MASS EFFECT showed great potential in the way of allowing more freedom than ever before, even if most of the worlds you visited by choice were mostly barren. I wouldn't really hold this against them too much and hope their first venture into MMORPG's doesn't turn out to make players feel like they're restricted/boxed into their environments.

Put the best of those two TOGETHER and ... pure pazaak!

Originally posted by DeaconX

OP, I hear ya and share your feelings more or less. To me, the perfect Star Wars MMORPG would have BioWare's development style mate with SWG's and produce 'the best of both'. An open galaxy of freedom, filled with adventure, excitement, choices and deep role playing.

-Have never done a 'sandbox style' experience like Fallout 3, SWG, the later GTA games. All their games are basically 'zoned' because they're single player games meant to keep you on track. However, MASS EFFECT showed great potential in the way of allowing more freedom than ever before, even if most of the worlds you visited by choice were mostly barren. I wouldn't really hold this against them too much and hope their first venture into MMORPG's doesn't turn out to make players feel like they're restricted/boxed into their environments.

Put the best of those two TOGETHER and ... pure pazaak!

Yes, and thats what I hope they do with SWOR . I don't mind having a central liner story arc that most players of the same class take, or being offered the same quest as others that go where I go, but if the eveultion of the character ever stops, if a person is ever forced to stay good or evil by design rather than choice the game may as well just be WoW with a different skin and lore. I want a game where a person can choose to start off as part of the jedi order and then convert to the sith and then be reformed again, who can play the double agent, the spy, the rouge, the mercary and in a SW universe this should be possible.

An MMO should never truly end, and box a person completly in by their choices (although I do like final choices the game offers)  because then the player is forced to do the same things over and over again at end game until the developers builds a new ride.

Why shouldnt bioware do what they do best? Why dont let other companies do sandboxes and let thoose who are great at storytelling do games based on story? In my opinon snadboxes sholdnt be made of movie/book license instead make sandboxes from original IPs.

And I dissagree that there are alot story-based MMOs... Just because a MMO have quests and a story doesnt meen its story based. I think LotrO is the closest things to storybased since the epic-book is a main part of the game and that the story get a new book every 3 months.

WoWs lack of story was one of the things that made me quit it (Its a carrot based game not story based).

Sure AoC have a story but when everyone is a -fugitive with a memory loss who turns out to be the choosen one and have to kill the evil wizard who took his memory away- its just silly in a MMO.

The hard truth a lot of "hardcore" MMO players need to learn is that you only make up a small, tiny insignificant portion of the paying customers in todays MMO world.  No matter how grand our ego's are and how LEET we think we are.  We simply do not offer enough dollar clout to change the current MMO genre.  The good ole' days are gone.  You can either learn to live in the world of instant gratification and accessability or you can be like those old geezers on their porches who wonder what happened to the world. 

Our ancestors explored the world and found everything there was to find.  Now we live in a world that never changes until some new tech or some new fancy theme park opens up to visit.  You either change with the times or you get left behind.  Darkfall may offer the gameplay you long for as well as a few other new offerings but at the most they will be minor successes by industry standards due to the market they are catering too.  Simply put there are more consumers who prefer a quick ride or two that blow them away then to live in the theme park their entire lives building new rides just for them to ride on.  Yes, todays world is about the casual player and the "kiddies."  They come in larger numbers than you do.  They complain less than you do.  and on average they are willing to pay more for less than you are.

MMO's is a business and businesses will cater to what ever get's them the most money.  If SWTOR can offer a story driven world that blows WoW out of the water then they will be a massive success on scale with WoW and lets be honest there is no bigger prize in the MMO industry right now than to pull that off.  And the only dev team that could possibly do that is Bioware.  Their story telling is on par with the day of past Blizzard.  And if they do pull it off (Which even one of the blizzard big wigs in a recent PC Gamer article suggests it just might) Then no matter what you old timers and your great stories of how you walked through the snow to collect your 10 fox ears, up hill both ways, Mean diddly spit.

I was one of those old timers, but I found new ways to explore and have adventures, I changed with the times.  I wax nostalgic all the time about how nice it was and I look forward to new chances to do some of those things again.  But I do not hide from the reality of the current gaming world.