This thread seems like a rant against success. WoW is a very successful game by any reasonable standard. The fact that a minority of vocal MMO players don't like it, isn't going to change anything. If you really can’t find an MMO you like then you either have to a) stop playing MMOs and wait for one you like or b) start writing you own MMO. What’s the point of complain about successful games that other people like?

The current state of this genre is sad.   I have a feeling it is only going to get worse and this is the reason I have given up on MMORPG's all together.   I currently play Mount and Blade and though it is a single player game and limited - there is more game play value in it then all the MMORPG's I have ever played put together. 

What we see coming down the road is more rehashed versions of games all ready on the market.  Nothing innovative or creative and I seriously doubt we'll ever see another sandbox game.   The current genre is stale.  We're still mashing hotkeys, have classes and levels.   Bring us FPS style combat, make the games skill based and leveless!  

The system used in M&B is proof positive that FPS style combat would work and the skill based system used in the game makes it possible to have hundreds of unique PC's.  It is to bad someone in the game industry doesn't see what M&B has brought to the table and incorperate it into an MMORPG.

I take it back...Mortal Online looks promising...but I will not hold my breath.   For now though I'll just keep playing games like M&B and BF2 - MMORPG's are dead to me.

Originally posted by polypterus

This thread seems like a rant against success. WoW is a very successful game by any reasonable standard. The fact that a minority of vocal MMO players don't like it, isn't going to change anything. If you really can’t find an MMO you like then you either have to a) stop playing MMOs and wait for one you like or b) start writing you own MMO. What’s the point of complain about successful games that other people like?

i'm not trying to change anything.  i'm simply stating my opinion that all games suck.

The reason I'm able to much such a general statement that covers all mmorpg games is because they all suck. 

i'm very happy for those that are paying a monthly subscription to play their favorite mmorpg.  I, however, am left with the impression that the monthly sub is a complete and total scam.  Weigh the pay to play paradigm against the complete and utter stagnation of this industry in the last 4 years and, if you're like me, you may see it for the scam it is.

i think some you think i'm here trying to sway you from your World of Warcraft.  Unlike some people who totally despise this game I'm able to see that I am indeed in the minority.   That doesn't change the fact that  you used to get something unique with a montly subscription cost.  Now the entire system is a complete scam designed systematically as gear quest online.

The "solution" has already been implemented:  I no longer play these games. This doesn't stop me from talking about why I no longer play them and it doesnt stop people from trying to talk down from their mighty pedistals of all knowing.  thats the great thing about message boards when used properly....they can be used to discuss people's opinons on subjects even if they aren't like your own.

Originally posted by Pelu

I hate the look of WoW so much... and also all of those cartony games....

Yes, we get the point, you think WoW looks like a cartoon, You sound likea broken record. How many times in the same thread must you point out your view? Until someone makes a reply to you I suspect, so you can troll it back.

Originally posted by Rekindle

Hi,

 EQ and UO were great games but one can only play that theam of game in easy mode for so long  before it gets to be exhausting.  Gone are the days of the sandbox where you got a message (if that) that said "Welcome to UO" with no more tasks described.  Gone are the days of discovery and random wandering, trial and error and puzzle solving

It's called nostalgia and it's a very dangerous thing.

The thing  that you're describing is Nostalgia and it happens with a lot of people who played the old MMORPG .There is no MMORPG like your first MMORPG because settling foot in an online virtual world for the very first time is a thrilling experience. You don't really know what to expect and there is a certain rush knowing that nearly everybody you meet are real people playing. As soon as you play more mmorpg's, this new feeling starts to wear off and you'll start to look at MMO's differently.

A person who has played multiple MMORPG's and a person who is new to the genre approach a game  in very different was\ys. An experienced player will wonder "Ok, How do I level the fastest, when do I need to group and when will I get my first new skill?" a new player doesn't really know what to expect from the game and thus the possibilities seem endless.

A game may seem "wide open" but that's simply because you didn't know or never realised where the bounds are.

The fan lost in nostalgia will call it "Trial and Error" but the realist will point out that it's simply a result of  bad game design which leads to an inaccessible experience.

You look back at your favorite games and say "That game was not quest driven and it was full of discovery and random wandering". These type of games are still around, except nowadays you call them "Grindfests with no content".

Truth is, World of Warcraft relaunched the genre. Games like Ultima Online kept the MMORPG popularity from reaching its full potential. Ultima Online wasn't the first MMORPG but it was certainly the first "Big name" MMORPG and look at it, it maxed out at around 200k subscribers. The Korean equivalent of Ultima Online would be Lineage, except that Lineage was more accessible . And look at it, Lineage had millions of subscribers and the MMORPG genre in Korea just exploded, which didn't happen with UO. Everquest did a lot better, and WoW is just enormous. Why is WoW so enormous? Because it didn't make the same mistakes old MMORPG's made, in fact, WoW's designers were Everquest players. But if you keep blinding yourself with nostalgia, you'll never see where UO and EQ went wrong.

Will there be more innovation? Over time, yes I think innovation will happen, just not yet. With the introduction of WoW,, MMORPG"s have finally reached a big enough audience to help it lift ouf of the "niche genre" it used to be.There are lots of new players and they need to be introduced to the genre properly before they move on to the next step, and that takes time.

Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Rekindle

Hi,

 EQ and UO were great games but one can only play that theam of game in easy mode for so long  before it gets to be exhausting.  Gone are the days of the sandbox where you got a message (if that) that said "Welcome to UO" with no more tasks described.  Gone are the days of discovery and random wandering, trial and error and puzzle solving

 

It's called nostalgia and it's a very dangerous thing.

The thing is that you're describing is Nostalgia and it happens with a lot of people who played the old MMORPG is.There is no MMORPG like your first MMORPG because settling foot inin an online virtual world for the very first time is a thrilling experience. You don't really know what to expect and there is a certain rush knowing that nearly everybody you meet are real people playing. As soon as you play more mmorpg's, this new feeling starts to wear off and you'll start to look at MMO's differently.

A person who has played multiple MMORPG's and a person who is new to the genre approach a game  in very different was\ys. An experienced player will wonder "Ok, How do I level the fastest, when do I need to group and when will I get my first new skill?" a new player doesn't really know what to expect from the game and thus the possibilities seem endless.

A game may seem "wide open" but that's simply because you didn't know or never realised where the bounds are.

The fan lost in nostalgia will call it "Trial and Error" but the realist will point out that it's simply a result of  bad game design which leads to an inaccessible experience.

You look back at your favorite game and say "That game were not quest driven and was full of discovery and random wandering". These type of games are still around, except nowadays you call them "Grindfests with no content".

Truth is, World of Warcraft relaunched the genre. Games like Ultima Online kept the MMORPG popularity from reaching its full potential. Ultima Online wasn't the first MMORPG but it was certainly the first "Big name" MMORPG and look at it, it maxed out at around 200k subscribers. The Korean equivalent of Ultima Online would be Lineage, except that Lineage was more accessible . And look at it, Lineage had millions of subscribers and the MMORPG genre in Korea just exploded, which didn't happen with UO. Everquest did a lot better, and WoW is just enormous. Why is WoW so enormous? Because it didn't make the same mistakes old MMORPG's made, in fact, MMORPG's designers were Everquest players. But if you keep blinding yourself with nostalgia, you'll never see where UO and EQ went wrong.

Excellent post.  I couldn't agree more.

Sorry but I disagree with this "all MMOs sux" OP.

While I understand liking or disliking a MMO is all a matter of a players tastes.

I happen to think Eve, Ryzom,CoH and even LotRO are really good games.

While we have had some stinkers like Vanguard, TR and AoC they aren't all bad.

Now you say you don't like all the WoW clones? well first of all they aren't WoW clones (except for WAR)

all these games are taking something away from UO, EQ and AC mostly.

You say you dont like the boring fedex quests? well thats what an MMO is if it has quests.

Maybe you just don't like the MMO genre as a whole?

What do you want out of a MMO? different types of combat options? like TCoS? well I just tried that mmo/fps hybrid and the combat is boring and unresponsive as shit.

You want FFA pvp? well I've been playing Eve and no game has Harsher pvp yet you don't like Eve.

You want different quests? well LotRO and EQ2 have a ton of quests all types and you don't like those and even go as far as saying they are WoW clones which they clearly aren't.

Personally I just think you need to leave the MMO genre because it will never turn out to be the way you want it. MMOs will always have fetch quests, simple combat, Either skill or talent trees and either a static pvp endgame or a pve item grind. ASking for different is like asking Devs of a car racing game to omit the roads or take all the wheels off the cars. It doesn't work.

You don't like MMOs anymore thats ok, its only a game. hell I out grew fighting games like Street fighter and Mortal kombat you dont see me on a fighting game board wanting them to omit combos.

I wish people would stop telling me how to think.

MMOs suck is an opinion and I've already stated that the modern day mmo is garbage compared to what it could be, a feeling that places me in the minority.

If you want to get technical they are all EQ clones. WoW clones is a better term because its modern and everyone knows what you're talking about. 

My definition of a wow clone:

A game with quests.

A game with task after task as if I need to be led by my nose from zone to zone to zone.

Hierarchical zone content in the sense that you do one zone , get the levels and move on to the next zone.  Was Deceit actually "harder" than Shame ?  (Well the lich lord room for sure but you get my point).

A game where gear is meaningless. There is too much emphasis on loot and less on writing a good story behind the acquisition of each and every item.  When I played D&D I could tell you a story about each item I obtained. Magic items are suposed to be rare - not dropping off a rat in the woods.

Leveling / Endgame progression......MMOS aren't suposed to have an end game.

I am indeed not a mmorpg gamer because people dont want RPG games online anymore. They WANT to run on a treadmill like a hamster and collect the next piece of trivial gear so they can move on to the next piece of trivial gear.

Its sad really, that people have such low expectations from their games.  What me and many others are looking for is not a complex change really. 

Originally posted by Rekindle

I wish people would stop telling me how to think.

MMOs suck is an opinion and I've already stated that the modern day mmo is garbage compared to what it could be, a feeling that places me in the minority.

If you want to get technical they are all EQ clones. WoW clones is a better term because its modern and everyone knows what you're talking about. 

 

My definition of a wow clone:

A game with quests.

A game with task after task as if I need to be led by my nose from zone to zone to zone.

Hierarchical zone content in the sense that you do one zone , get the levels and move on to the next zone.  Was Deceit actually "harder" than Shame ?  (Well the lich lord room for sure but you get my point).

A game where gear is meaningless. There is too much emphasis on loot and less on writing a good story behind the acquisition of each and every item.  When I played D&D I could tell you a story about each item I obtained. Magic items are suposed to be rare - not dropping off a rat in the woods.

Leveling / Endgame progression......MMOS aren't suposed to have an end game.

 

I am indeed not a mmorpg gamer because people dont want RPG games online anymore. They WANT to run on a treadmill like a hamster and collect the next piece of trivial gear so they can move on to the next piece of trivial gear.

Its sad really, that people have such low expectations from their games.  What me and many others are looking for is not a complex change really. 

And You're not telling everyone else how to think?   At least to the same strength that we're tell you to.   Only you're worse because you know that by spewing about a bit of poison you can get the "weaker" to think twice about their MMOs, because the same thing just might have happened to you.

__________

You mean people actually play MMOs like that? Because I certaily haven't played many that were like that because I know that I don't want to.

I guess if you're calling every MMO on the list to the left a WoW clone(no wait all MMOs) based on that criteria it really just proves you haven't gotten around as much as you claimed to have.

Lets see: all browser MMOs(empire building, character building, hybrid), Mabinogi(F2P), Runescape(another F2P but hybrid ish), EvE, Ryzom, WurmOnline, and A Tale in the Desert.   I mean come on these are just games no one will argue with You could easily start including things like Guildwars, the pirates/ship games from last year, and quite a few others.  

____________

Actually it is a complex change because it's already all around you and you don't see it.   Developers can't change the player after all.

You have no economic vote in the MMORPG genere because you don't play MMOs, you only play flaws then spew forum rhetoric about them a month later.
 

Originally posted by Rekindle

I wish people would stop telling me how to think.

MMOs suck is an opinion and I've already stated that the modern day mmo is garbage compared to what it could be, a feeling that places me in the minority.

If you want to get technical they are all EQ clones. WoW clones is a better term because its modern and everyone knows what you're talking about. 

 

My definition of a wow clone:

A game with quests.

A game with task after task as if I need to be led by my nose from zone to zone to zone.

Hierarchical zone content in the sense that you do one zone , get the levels and move on to the next zone.  Was Deceit actually "harder" than Shame ?  (Well the lich lord room for sure but you get my point).

A game where gear is meaningless. There is too much emphasis on loot and less on writing a good story behind the acquisition of each and every item.  When I played D&D I could tell you a story about each item I obtained. Magic items are suposed to be rare - not dropping off a rat in the woods.

Leveling / Endgame progression......MMOS aren't suposed to have an end game.

 

I am indeed not a mmorpg gamer because people dont want RPG games online anymore. They WANT to run on a treadmill like a hamster and collect the next piece of trivial gear so they can move on to the next piece of trivial gear.

Its sad really, that people have such low expectations from their games.  What me and many others are looking for is not a complex change really. 

The funny thing is that the MMORPG's you mentioned are just as character progressive as todays modern MMO's are.

Paulscott, cant talk with ya bud you just want to look down and say im wrong. You are combative and argumentative and look for every chance you can for subtle attacks on my intelligence. Surely I must be "wrong" because we don't agree.

Gameloading i dont buy the nostaliga arguement one little bit.

There is nothing nostaligic about wanting to move from task driven games that have beautiful landscapes and completely stagnatated game play.  Its not a lack of technical ability or some desentization on my part that drives shitty games.

Why do mobs need to stand around and wait to be killed?

Why do we have to have crappy quest hubs with crappy quests to get crappy gear?

I'm not new to this genre. I've seen era's come and go and today's lack of innovation on the developer's part is not my problem (quite literally since I'm not playing). 

All games suck because they are basically rehashed versions of the same game.

Let me say it again: All games that have task driven quests, level based hierarchial based content systems are clones of one another. Its like having different versions of a word processor or cans of Cola Soda.  THey may have slightly different flavors but they all fizz.

An open ended world like UO or early era Eq is what some of us are looking for. 

Eh, my only problem with WoW is that it hasn't stolen quite everything from WAR yet.
It will come... soon...
And we will have World of Warhammercraft, where leveling from pvp will be easily accessable and such.

Until that happens, I'ma play free MMOs, although I hate Guild Wars' patching system. 200mb per area to load? I was like "wtf!?" when I came back from my three year-ish absence.

Originally posted by Rekindle

i'm very happy for those that are paying a monthly subscription to play their favorite mmorpg.  I, however, am left with the impression that the monthly sub is a complete and total scam.  Weigh the pay to play paradigm against the complete and utter stagnation of this industry in the last 4 years and, if you're like me, you may see it for the scam it is.

I dont deny that innovation is lacking

but at the same time, I think the current mmos are more entertaining than the majority of new PC games

$15.00 a month for doing the same old stuff year after year?  

I dont agree it a scam

I personally find it cheap entertainment  (despite the issues)

Originally posted by Rekindle

Paulscott, cant talk with ya bud you just want to look down and say im wrong. You are combative and argumentative and look for every chance you can for subtle attacks on my intelligence. Surely I must be "wrong" because we don't agree.

 

Gameloading i dont buy the nostaliga arguement one little bit.

There is nothing nostaligic about wanting to move from task driven games that have beautiful landscapes and completely stagnatated game play.  Its not a lack of technical ability or some desentization on my part that drives shitty games.

Why do mobs need to stand around and wait to be killed?

Why do we have to have crappy quest hubs with crappy quests to get crappy gear?

I'm not new to this genre. I've seen era's come and go and today's lack of innovation on the developer's part is not my problem (quite literally since I'm not playing). 

All games suck because they are basically rehashed versions of the same game.

 

Let me say it again: All games that have task driven quests, level based hierarchial based content systems are clones of one another. Its like having different versions of a word processor or cans of Cola Soda.  THey may have slightly different flavors but they all fizz.

An open ended world like UO or early era Eq is what some of us are looking for. 

 

An opinion cannot necessarily be wrong, but it is not necesarily right because it is opinion.  You have stated yours, others are telling you that that is not the fact of the genre but just your opion.   Your opinion may not be wrong to you, but since it is opinion it is wrong to others.

Stagnated game play is largely opinion, not fact, especially for new gamers since of course then it's not stagnated (thats where part of the nostalgia would come in, you've been there and done it).

Shitty games is opinion, not fact.

Most games have have static mobs AND wondering mobs, actually I've never played an MMO that didn't.  EQ, EQ2, WoW, SWG, CoX, HZ, LOTRO, DAOC, Vanguard they all had wondering mobs.

Crappy is completely opinion, not fact.

I'm not new to the genre either and haven't seen a lot of era's.  I'm doing the same thing now as I did in early EQ, which to me is getting stale because again I've been there and done that, so it's me thats changed, not the games.

"They all fizzz"  Thats the definition of soda, carbonation.

Early EQ is almost exactly the same as modern games.  level based hierarchial based content with level grind, mob grind, quest grind.  No different than today.  So if this is what you are looking for, there is a plethora of them availble.

You don't want a clone but you want something like early EQ of which most games today are a clone of, doesn't make a lot of sense.

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by Blazz

I hate Guild Wars' patching system. 200mb per area to load? I was like "wtf!?" when I came back from my three year-ish absence.

off topic, GuildWars

there is a way you can download all new content before you launch the game

use the -image option in your GW shortcut to launch the game

wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/-image#-image

example:

"C:\Program Files\Guild Wars\Gw.exe" -image

---

Originally posted by Blazz

Eh, my only problem with WoW is that it hasn't stolen quite everything from WAR yet.
It will come... soon...
And we will have World of Warhammercraft, where leveling from pvp will be easily accessable and such.
Until that happens, I'ma play free MMOs, although I hate Guild Wars' patching system. 200mb per area to load? I was like "wtf!?" when I came back from my three year-ish absence.

---

Though it does take a nice long while, but it is faster than passively leaving the login screen up for a night. which works as well.

---

Originally posted by Rekindle

Let me say it again: All games that have task driven quests, level based hierarchial based content systems are clones of one another. Its like having different versions of a word processor or cans of Cola Soda. THey may have slightly different flavors but they all fizz.

---

I consider this successful progress because now you aren't subtyping the games that I play as idiotic rehashes of the "World of Everclone" subtype. Even if they do have issues in their other aspects.

I don't disagree with you that a lot of games are "World of Everclone" but I utterly hate the fact that you offer no alternatives and blatently tell people not to play the alternatives because other different games suck.

The only way that the genre will change is when people see what few alternatives there and start to play them. This is the only way to get "feature envy", "income envy", and whatever else into the heads of AAA developers so they actually make something different.

Vetoing the whole genre will not change it at all, it'll just concentrate the people who are perfectly happy with it staying + playing + paying.

Basically I see your mindset as the real death of the genre. Not the "world of everclone" subtype which will eventually knock itself out.

Here are some solutions.

Play EVE Online.

Play Ryzom.

but most of all, quit coming here and telling MMO players that they are wrong and stupid for playing the games they play, and then whining when someone takes issue with your point of view, and has the nerve to disagree.

we get it, you want a sandbox game. I just named two sandbox games for you to play. why don't you simply play them instead of constantly complaining that there are no sandbox games, because that is a flat out lie.

I've played nearly every major MMO there was dating back to UO. and the OP of this thread is absolutely no better than any of the people he is complaining about "talking down to him and telling him he is wrong."  You are doing the exact same thing they are doing, except you think it is okay as long as you are the one doing the talking down from on top of your pedestal.

Originally posted by Rekindle

i'm not trying to change anything.  i'm simply stating my opinion that all games suck.

The reason I'm able to much such a general statement that covers all mmorpg games is because they all suck. 

i'm very happy for those that are paying a monthly subscription to play their favorite mmorpg.  I, however, am left with the impression that the monthly sub is a complete and total scam.  Weigh the pay to play paradigm against the complete and utter stagnation of this industry in the last 4 years and, if you're like me, you may see it for the scam it is.

i think some you think i'm here trying to sway you from your World of Warcraft.  Unlike some people who totally despise this game I'm able to see that I am indeed in the minority.   That doesn't change the fact that  you used to get something unique with a montly subscription cost.  Now the entire system is a complete scam designed systematically as gear quest online.

The "solution" has already been implemented:  I no longer play these games. This doesn't stop me from talking about why I no longer play them and it doesnt stop people from trying to talk down from their mighty pedistals of all knowing.  thats the great thing about message boards when used properly....they can be used to discuss people's opinons on subjects even if they aren't like your own.

 

You are right. It’s a message board and you can post what you like. However what do you think it’s going to get you, since you yourself admit you are in the minority? I have seen many similar threads and the one thing they have in common is they are all complaints with no solutions. It’s the same thing over and over. But post away if you like. By the way, I quit WoW to work on my own game and I’m not playing any other games currently, so you don’t have to sway me from WoW. I do however still think it’s a good game and I won’t hesitate to copy things I like about it and throw out things I don’t.

Good luck with your gaming in 2009.

Im currently not playing any MMO. I find myself going back and trying games that never appealed to me out of desperation but I quickly cancel.

Nothing comes close to the sheer joy I felt in Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu