Originally posted by metalleke 

On my server queues were gone all a sudden. Wasnt just after free month btw. So on a certain day more than 3hour worth off queue just left the game? Right.

Server went from high/high to med/med.

Gamers are not the same everywhere. Try and feel the difference between the loads of clans that start and die evey month in a shooter. And the atmosphere in a guild thats older then some games. If you dont notice a difference. Thats very strange.

Just in general btw, arguments like "everyone says after x time of playing". Don't insinuate things as a truth, when ya blatantly know they arent.

Like I said, I happened to be watching server loads to see which server would make a good new home right around this time, because my server was already dead.   There was not some drop across the board due to some less than talked about population cap increase.  I saw the slow and steady decline as choice after choice I picked dropped from heavy to medium.  It wasn't just some overnight occurance. 

Something I am curious about is what server had a 3 hour que anywhere after the free month or close to it?  I know my server went from medium to low the day after the three top guilds all decided to reroll on another server, but to my knowledge there wasn't any server US side that had 3 hour ques that far into release.  Around this time I could count the number of heavy servers on 1 hand most nights and that is counting both factions.

As for players being the same, they are for the most part.  Gamers are gamers and for the most part share identical values and styles.  Skuz was making a point that something things are different now due to "fps" types playing mmos.  He focuses on the large swings in players trying new games and returning to old games as if the people making the choice are the biggest factor.  I disagree with that and think gamers are gamers for the most part.  What he overlooks is that most of the games release post-wow era have been total crap or at best not even close to as good as the game they departed. There has been very little compelling reason for people to leave their old games for new games.  Where earlier mmos all sort of suffered rough launches and it was more or less accepted to pay a fee while companies fixed their game over the next several months/years. 

Games are not failing now because the new breed of mmo players just won't leave their old game.  Games are falling down now, because people have more options.  There isn't really a need to pay for some unfinished game when they can simply go back to an established game and wait for the next release to come out.  However those days too are going to slow down as pretty much all the big blockbusters have made their debute. 

A good game will pull old players, new players and everything in between if it is crafted well enough. 

Originally posted by NightbladeX1

No depth, crappy combat engine, crappy RVR that's almost as Bad's as WoW's, crappy PvE, falling woefully short of sales and subscription expectations... It's a fucking flop; ok? 

This lol

reading through  a lot of these posts and I have to comment. 

First, the game is not failing.  Has it lost members?  yes.  Do some things need to be fixed?  yes.  So has and does every other MMO out there.  This game, to me granted, has the best PvP so far implemented.  Don't name me other games that are better cuz as I said, this is my opionion and I probably haven't played them.  

Mythic has also started consolidating the servers.  They started with way, way too many to begin with and this caused problems on some servers, others were the opposite.  So what do they do at the time instead of raise the pop cap?  Clone servers.  That was a disaster.  They raised the pop cap after that but should have well before as well as offered free server transfers then instead of after.  Whoops.  But the game didn't fail, it's still going strong.

Things they could do better?  There is a lot, just like any other MMO.  Character customization is one I think that needs to be especially looked at.  As for PvP balance, zog off.  It's not that friggin' bad.  I play a shaman and get punted all over the place and die all the time.  It's war people, you're gonna die.  And balance is something again that all MMOs must and do focus on so quit yer whinin' already.

I don't have firm numbers as Mythic hasn't released them yet but  I can say for my server on Phoenix Throne, it's still going strong and mostly balanced, perhaps more in favor of order even.  Other servers, maybe not as well but with such a plethora of new MMOs on the horizon and open beta going strong in them now, it's not surprising the numbers are down here, for now.  This is a great game, to me, and I can only see it getting better.  If not, well then I'll pack me waaaghstik and move on to 40k when it comes out.  Even then I'll still stick around here for the PvP.

The game isnt failing.. it already failed

Originally posted by mcpoopypantz

The game isnt failing.. it already failed

Riiight.. Because they are closing everything down, and the developers are being laid off.. DnL failed.. Mourning failed.. Hell, Tabula Rasa failed.. Even Age of Conan was a failure of a much larger scale.  The majority of servers have healthy populations, and the dev team are working on improving the game constantly.. Sure, it was a failure for those that expected it to top WoW, or those that would only consider it a success with WoW type numbers.. but those people are retarded.  I'm sure the game is profitable, and has a very decent subscriber number.. If that's a failure, then you must have extremely high standards.

Originally posted by Syyth007

Originally posted by mcpoopypantz

The game isnt failing.. it already failed

 

Riiight.. Because they are closing everything down, and the developers are being laid off.. DnL failed.. Mourning failed.. Hell, Tabula Rasa failed.. Even Age of Conan was a failure of a much larger scale.  The majority of servers have healthy populations, and the dev team are working on improving the game constantly.. Sure, it was a failure for those that expected it to top WoW, or those that would only consider it a success with WoW type numbers.. but those people are retarded.  I'm sure the game is profitable, and has a very decent subscriber number.. If that's a failure, then you must have extremely high standards.

I do have high standards...

For all the hype Warhammer going in, yes it could be considered a failure. Did it do a lot of box sales and have intial large numbers of subscribers? yes,, but the numbers of people who would play this game long term have dropped. My guild has had, including myself 10 people subscribe to other games. I'm pretty sure there are many people who can say the same.

The game did not deliver what was promised at all, War Everywhere! It is scenario ridden, the only rvr that happens is in 10% of any tiers map, the rewards system is bunk, the CC is ridiculous, the PvE areas are stagnant with no epic feel to them, the servers can't handle a large raid, keep swapping is more prevalent than pvp.

Warhammer is surviiving, thriving (however you want to put it) because there really aren't many good games out. WoW has their fanbase because they feel it's good, EvE is a good game imo but it is a niche game being in space and all. There are fans of AoC but many are turned off by it's previous problems at release. There are games like StarWars, Star Trek, Darkfall, Mortal down the pipeline but they cater to certain crowds or they face a very weary customer base due to a myriad of reasons.

All in all, Mythic should be grateful they didn't release WaR at any other time than now. Lack of competition is helping them way much more than anyone thinking this is a good game.

Originally posted by srsh12345

I can't believe this is the same company that made DAOC. I was really wished that they would remake DAOC with the WAR IP.  I just don't understand why they decided to WOW-enize their game so much when they had a succesful track record with DAOC.

--You can't copy WOW and expect to pull the WOW players unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard.
--You can't copy EVE and expect to get the EVE players unless you do the EVE experience better than CCP.
Same with any established game/business.

I really feel that they underestimated how low burned out WOW-players have set their bar when seeking their next MMO.

I still feel that WAR has the potential to turn things around and I am hoping they can. However, I am not going to be paying them while I feel there’s so much that needs to be improved.

  

I so much agree with this statement. It seems like the MMORPG industry is in crisis because almost all devs look at WoWs subscription numbers and think if they copy WoWs features and add their own twist then they will get similar subscription numbers.

But as you say you wont do that unless you do the WOW experience better than Blizzard and that is a very hard thing to do. For one Blizzard is an excellent company that always hold a very high standard of their games and second they know the Warcraft IP better than anyone else so trying to make a better WoW copy us very hard if not impossible.

Hopefully after the many semi-failures such as AoC and WAR the devs realise this and try to be innovative instead of copying other companies product.  Not saying that WAR is a complete copy of WoW but it has many elements, the very linear progression and lenient death penalties for one thing, that is very similar to WoW and when people see this they probably think. Hey this is like WoW then why dont I play WoW instead which has ten times the number of people and many times the content than this game?

Devs wake up!

Yep and hopefully they can connect the dots and realise that you wont get WoWs subscription numbers by copying WoW features.

Originally posted by Yamota

Yep and hopefully they can connect the dots and realise that you wont get WoWs subscription numbers by copying WoW features.

While I agree I don't think any P2P (of F2P, for that matter) could ever come close to WoW's numbers while WoW is still running, but IMHO while games like WAR tried to copy WoW's features (or maybe, it's more fair to say they attempted to implement similar features) they generally fail to implement those features well.

People can knock WoW all they want, but it's VERY stable and, like it or not, is a very easy game to play (from a game mechanics perspective) and people nowadays like something that's stable and isn't a pain in the neck to run.

I believe that if a game came along that had a similar feature set and did them well, and had the other "intangibles" that WoW has, that game would see good success, though not, as I mentioned before, with the kinds of subs WoW boasts.

 That is the whole problem. No one was really waiting for a WoW copy. 

Ofcourse people compare features with WoW. But they are not waiting for a WoW 2.

Instead they should have looked more to their own game DAoC and used the good and working RvR features and ideas from that game and use it in Warhammer Online.

The game would have been much more succesful and not people mass quiting like is happening now.

As when you looked at all the message boards from the past years, then you saw people hoping and asking for DAoC style Open RvR, because it was awesome and more important... it was addictively fun with long time replayability!!!

So that's why I am completely baffled that they ignored their own following and large fanbase (they had).

And for the PvE ....sure they could have copied the best and good working features from WoW and used that. Wich now they horribly failed at as well. 

Cheers

Originally posted by Proto23

 Very simply. T3 sucked too much. People were having a great time doing T1 and T2 and then burned out in T3. They left the game in droves in once they got to T3.

i agree this is why im not playing the game currently
 

What killed the game for me was essentially tired, dull gameplay.

combat is the same as we've seen in a million other games from years ago.

PQs were a good idea, but other then that questing/pve is a tiresome chore.

Classes are lackluster due to straight mirrors, and too little customization in terms of looks and play style.

ORVR, which was supposed to be the core of the game is usually underpopulated, and too centered on loot rewards as players are rewarded more for taking undefended keeps, making defense pointless and causes zergs to purposely avoid each other.

Capital city sieges were supposed to be awesome, but they only opened up new instances, were bugged, and no one really cared after a while.

It seemed to me like DAOC had way better RVR due to relic raids, realm pride, more expansive zones, and more emphasis on defense.

There is basically no compelling reason to stay in the game after one has seen what is has to offer because there is really nothing that is 'fun', just lackluster, tired gameplay they we have seen done better before.

Originally posted by Fargol

Originally posted by Yamota

Yep and hopefully they can connect the dots and realise that you wont get WoWs subscription numbers by copying WoW features.

While I agree I don't think any P2P (of F2P, for that matter) could ever come close to WoW's numbers while WoW is still running, but IMHO while games like WAR tried to copy WoW's features (or maybe, it's more fair to say they attempted to implement similar features) they generally fail to implement those features well.

People can knock WoW all they want, but it's VERY stable and, like it or not, is a very easy game to play (from a game mechanics perspective) and people nowadays like something that's stable and isn't a pain in the neck to run.

I believe that if a game came along that had a similar feature set and did them well, and had the other "intangibles" that WoW has, that game would see good success, though not, as I mentioned before, with the kinds of subs WoW boasts.

Well that is what most MMORPG devs think these days. That if we can just copy WoWs features well and add our own twist then our game will be a success.

However I disagree with that. If I want to play WoW then I play WoW and not a WoW copy particulary since a new game cannot possibly have as much content and playerbase as WoW has.

What devs need to realise is that there are alot of people that are SICK of WoW and WoW copies and wants either something new or atleast something different from WoW. WAR could have been it with its innovative PvP system and other things like innovative classes and Public Quests but by WoWifying their game and making it easy and casual those innovative things are being overshadowed by so many other WoW like features.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Fargol

Originally posted by Yamota

Yep and hopefully they can connect the dots and realise that you wont get WoWs subscription numbers by copying WoW features.

While I agree I don't think any P2P (of F2P, for that matter) could ever come close to WoW's numbers while WoW is still running, but IMHO while games like WAR tried to copy WoW's features (or maybe, it's more fair to say they attempted to implement similar features) they generally fail to implement those features well.

People can knock WoW all they want, but it's VERY stable and, like it or not, is a very easy game to play (from a game mechanics perspective) and people nowadays like something that's stable and isn't a pain in the neck to run.

I believe that if a game came along that had a similar feature set and did them well, and had the other "intangibles" that WoW has, that game would see good success, though not, as I mentioned before, with the kinds of subs WoW boasts.

Well that is what most MMORPG devs think these days. That if we can just copy WoWs features well and add our own twist then our game will be a success.

However I disagree with that. If I want to play WoW then I play WoW and not a WoW copy particulary since a new game cannot possibly have as much content and playerbase as WoW has.

What devs need to realise is that there are alot of people that are SICK of WoW and WoW copies and wants either something new or atleast something different from WoW. WAR could have been it with its innovative PvP system and other things like innovative classes and Public Quests but by WoWifying their game and making it easy and casual those innovative things are being overshadowed by so many other WoW like features.

Just curious what stuff in WAR you consider WoWified? :)

Originally posted by Pheace

Just curious what stuff in WAR you consider WoWified? :)

The casual feel of the game. I.e. very lenient death penalty system, PvP with no real reward or consequences (beside loot and exp), easy linear game play (zone XX and YY for level AA then move on and never look back, takes very little effort to level).

The quest system, beside PQs also feel very much like WoW. I.e. kill this, collect that with big red markers saying where you should go. Almost all choices are made for you, like you are an idiot who can choose for yourself or rather the devs are for not being able to balance a more open ended system.

Also the class advancement feels very similar. You level and go to trainer and get your new skills, no choices besides masteries (again similar to WoW).

Furthermore WoW tries very much not to mix PvE with PvP which works well in that game because even the game is called World of Warcraft there is no war going on. In WAR there supposed to be a WAR raging between the sides so it is just natural that whoever is winning the war should get tangible rewards and the one losing it should get penalties. Thats how wars are, one side is winning and the other is losing and that should be dependant on the players.

However since WAR seems to be following WOWs way of doing things then there are little consequences for losing or rewards for winning which makes the war feel fake and the PvP meaningless. It doesnt matter who takes over that keep today, it will get flipped tomorow and then flipped back and forth infinitum until players get bored and quit. Thats not how wars are, they are by nature definitive and the result usually disastrous for the losing side.

So when someone is yelling "The keep is getting attacked in XX zone" I think. So what? Why should I defend it, if we need some temporary bonus then we can just flip it back once the attackers are gone. I will just do some scenarios meanwhile which will yield me more exp than lagging through zerg fights which outcome mostly depend on which side has the most numbers anyway. In scenarios at least the numbers are somewhat the same and the outcome decides by the players.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Pheace

Just curious what stuff in WAR you consider WoWified? :)

 

The casual feel of the game. I.e. very lenient death penalty system, PvP with no real reward or consequences (beside loot and exp), linear game play (zone XX and YY for level AA then move on and never look back).

The quest system, beside PQs also feel very much like WoW. I.e. kill this, collect that with big red markers saying where you should go.

Also the class advancement feels very similar. You level and go to trainer and get your new skills, no choices besides masteries (again similar to WoW).

Furthermore WoW tries very much not to mix PvE with PvP which works well in that game because even the game is called World of Warcraft there is no war going on. In WAR there supposed to be a WAR raging between the sides so it is just natural that whoever is winning the war should get tangible rewards and the one losing it should get penalties. Thats how wars are, one side is winning and the other is losing and that should be dependant on the players.

However since WAR seems to be following WOWs way of doing things then there are little consequences for losing or rewards for winning which makes the war feel fake and the PvP meaningless. It doesnt matter who takes over that keep today, it will get flipped tomorow and then flipped back and forth infinitum until players get bored and quit. Thats not how wars are, they are by nature definitive and the result usually disastrous for the losing side.

So when someone is yelling "The keep is getting attacked in XX zone" I think. So what? Why should I defend it, if we need some temporary bonus then we can just flip it back once the attackers are gone. I will just do some scenarios meanwhile which will yield me more exp than lagging through zerg fights which outcome mostly depend on which side has the most numbers anyway. In scenarios at least the numbers are somewhat the same and the outcome decides by the players.

Sounds to me you play WAR as you play WoW. I dont do quests, other than the RvR ones. I level up purely by doing oRvR with a scenario here and there thrown in. That's where WAR and WoW are very, VERY different.

And the RvR BO trains are frowned upon. There are plenty of warbands that form up just to engage (and hopefully destroy) the other warbands that purely go for the BO's.

Seriously, you're very narrow-minded. You don't seem to be interested at all, immediately relating it to WoW. It can't be, other than some similarities here and there.

All that's missing in your reply is "Darkfall rules!".

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Sounds to me you play WAR as you play WoW. I dont do quests, other than the RvR ones. I level up purely by doing oRvR with a scenario here and there thrown in. That's where WAR and WoW are very, VERY different.

And the RvR BO trains are frowned upon. There are plenty of warbands that form up just to engage (and hopefully destroy) the other warbands that purely go for the BO's.

Seriously, you're very narrow-minded. You don't seem to be interested at all, immediately relating it to WoW. It can't be, other than some similarities here and there.

All that's missing in your reply is "Darkfall rules!".

Uhm, I was asked where the similarities are between this game and WoW and I answered. I usually dont to quests either and I level by doing scenarios.

My point with the O-RvR comment was that there is no point in doing it, beside getting exp and gear (just like WoW). Noone cares about a keep being taken over because you can just flip it back once they are gone. And they will be gone because there is no point in staying and defending a keep since you can just flip it back again.

Hence why open RvR is pointless. So are scenarios but at least there is no zerging there (not the same way as in O-RvR anyway).

I'm not playing WAR atm but i may try it again. I don't think the game is a flop but I'll explain why momentarily.

First i'd REALLY like to know what games all the people who are saying it's awfull are playing. In terms of alot of those people a game is a flop if it doesn't meet WoW numbers in the first couple months. Well if this is the case that means there is only 1 true mmorpg out there. No mmo to this date has ever even come close. People talk about the good old days of DaOC and UO and EQ but even then mmo's as fun as they were, were a niche market. None of these games ever came close to bringing in those type of numbers.

Yes WoW has alot of people playing but this by no means is the bar that a company must either "Beat or Fail" (or does it mean it's the BEST game). There (By this logic) has NEVER been an "UnFlop" MMo besides WoW and i myself just do not believe this. Every MMO is different every MMO has it's particular flavor that will apeal to some and be "Not the one" for others. Thats what mmo's are. Each MMORPG is a type of game fitting to some restraints of genre each with it's own flavor and take on this same genre.

I mean is every RPG a failure that doesn't meet ff7's numbers or every FPS a failure for not meeting Halo's? Now I understand MMO's need subs to keep the current players happy but this game from what I can tell (from the last time I logged in a month and a half ago) it had a decent sub count. It just so happens though that due to the nature of this game and the spread out of classes and races that it needs a fairly populated server to feel fun but thats fine too. I'm not saying this is everyone but alot of people from WoW had never played an MMO before untill WoW was stable not alot of the current market remembers or ever experienced the rocky launches that are the majority of mmo's. Alot of people just remember hearing about this thing called WoW and logging and going OOO.

I mean just the other day i was talking to a friend of mine who just started playing wow and i asked "Is this your first MMORPG?" and she said "Whats an MMORPG" Now i have nothing against that game but it IS probably the MOST accesable game for a new comer to the genre if just the number of friends they have playing is a drawing factor.

I've come to realise from this site that people want the moon... but not JUST the moon. they want the moon bronzed and gold plated and filled with chocolate moose. You're darned if you do and darned if you don't with this community. Be too different and you get back burnered, be too the same and you get called a clone (even though I don't get this as all MMO's are pretty mch similar at least in SOME aspects) and if you try and do a little bit of both as i feel most games are doing you get both aspects of the commmunity.

War has it's similarities and it's got it's new things it's trying to do. But mmo's are not a flop if they just fail to have 10 mil subs. People will like a game & people will not like it. Move on.

Originally posted by BizkitNL 

Sounds to me you play WAR as you play WoW. I dont do quests, other than the RvR ones. I level up purely by doing oRvR with a scenario here and there thrown in. That's where WAR and WoW are very, VERY different.

And the RvR BO trains are frowned upon. There are plenty of warbands that form up just to engage (and hopefully destroy) the other warbands that purely go for the BO's.

Seriously, you're very narrow-minded. You don't seem to be interested at all, immediately relating it to WoW. It can't be, other than some similarities here and there.

All that's missing in your reply is "Darkfall rules!".

The only thing that plays different is that you can level by doing open PvP.  Everything else about this game plays just like WoW.  Sure some of the mechanics might differ here and there, but this is a straight up Diku/EQ/WoW clone, cut straight from the same cloth.  Most of the efforts where not even dressed up as something different and are straight out system clones.  Tell me you didn't have a firm grasp of how to play this game within ten minutes after logging on. 

Just because the game rewards people for running around in a pvp playpen with some experience doesn't somehow change the nature of what the game is.

You ignore the points of the person you criticize.  Sure you can level by running around in the RvR lakes and take keeps, but overall there is no driving passion to do so.  The whole RvR system is rather meaningless for 3/4 of the game and can be ignored without consequences. 

PvP just for the sake of fighting other players can be found in any game.  Mythic cloned a keep a hald dozen times and their best plan was "here fight over these".  Yet at the end of the day there is almost no reason to do so when that activity is scrutinized.  Why fight over the keeps?  The whole RvR system is a messy nightmare that doesn't stimulate people enough to play it for the sake of enjoyment, pride or victory.  The only way they could get people to engage each other was to slather gear rewards and reputation grinds into it.

Yamota is being realistic when he made his comments.  The problem isn't that people play this game like WoW, the problem is the game itself.