Well instead of crying here, get off the computer go to the local game store and by a rp game and some dice. What you want can be found in those old pencil and paper dice games, but you wont find it in a mmorpg on the computer, not ever going to happen. But that takes effort and imagination, and mmorpg gamers are losing those traits. Sad to see....

+1 Op that is how I feel too. 

Asheron's Call  1.5 is our only hope.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Abrahmm

The whole point of what we want is NOT to be the hero, just to be an average joe.

That doesn't make a damn bit of sense. If you just want to be an average Joe, then why the hell would you spend $50 on a game box and pay $15 a month in subscription fees? That's stupid. Just go outside and live a normal life.

These games are about an escape from the normal. They're entertainment, and a way to unwind after a long day of work and school. Who the hell wants to just be a normal Joe in an MMO?

 

Can I go outside and jump in my spaceship and go shoot down other people? Can I hop on a giant flying griffin and fly around launching fire balls at people? No. It never occured to you that the setting is the escape, and the joy of the game is LIVING like a normal person in a DIFFERENT setting. That never occurred to you because you are absolutely clueless about what you are talking about yet still feel the need to argue with people about what THEY WANT. If we didn't want this, there wouldn't be so many people on this website asking for it. Yet you have come here to argue with us telling us no one wants what so many of us are asking for. Brilliant.

I play single player games to be a hero. It is just plain stupid for everyone to automatically be a hero in an MMORPG. Earning "hero" status, or earning a formidable reputation among the community is one thing, but automatically becoming a hero because the NPC's told you you were is stupid, because when everyone is a hero, when everyone is special, no one is. Again, you don't understand this.

Originally posted by Gravarg

You forgot, "I'm sorry I left DAoC for WAR, DAoC was 1000x better."

Take off the Rose lense and see the truth.  Everytime I see this comment about DAOC, I'm going to remind you all that DAOC had 10 years to develop and when it launched it was in worse shape than WAR ever was.  PvP in that game was ABSOLUTE pointless and imbalanced.

If forums, like this one, were around and popular, like today, when that game released it would have eben torn to shreds by whiner post every hour talking about pointless PvP, Imbalanced classes, unfinished game, horrid animaitons, unoriginal item designs.  Twice as many complaints as WAR or AOC got today.  that is how bad DAOC was when it launched.

Here's what I notice with sandbox games that frustrates me.  The more freedom you give the people to make whatever they want, the less innovative people get.  Many players claim they want sandbox so they can break away from the average Joe build, then when they get in game they choose the same skills as 1000s of other people and level up in the same zones.  Only a minute few break the mold.  BUT, thos minute few typically do not becomes god like int he game.  they just end up being people with an odd tactic that works only sometimes compared to the pros with their "strategy gide" builds.  Every once in a while someone will break the mold and discover an awesome build or an awesome spot to level or quest.  Then within a month everyone on the server is copying that person.

take a look at Guild War skill set to see the truth of freedom.  You have a game with 1000s or people running around with the same 10 builds.  In City of Heroes you have 1000s of player running around with the same costume design and simular names.

Now look at a restricting game like WoW, DAOC, Lineage 2.  In these games you are very simular to everyone else around you.  Leveling up is basiclaly handed to you in predetermined paths.  Yet in these games players go out of their way more to become unique.  You see player using unorthodox items for their character just to get an edge.  When I played WoW, I was knoown as the paladin that freezes people.  I had many many talks with CSR about hacking all because I thought outside the box and wore a ring made for mages.  I felt more unique in WoW than I did in Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, or Star Wars Galaxies.  there seemed to be more guildes and more people searching for new unique builds in these games than in the open skill system games.

Originally posted by Urrelles

Here's what I notice with sandbox games that frustrates me.  The more freedom you give the people to make whatever they want, the less innovative people get.  Many players claim they want sandbox so they can break away from the average Joe build, then when they get in game they choose the same skills as 1000s of other people and level up in the same zones.  Only a minute few break the mold.  BUT, thos minute few typically do not becomes god like int he game.  they just end up being people with an odd tactic that works only sometimes compared to the pros with their "strategy gide" builds.  Every once in a while someone will break the mold and discover an awesome build or an awesome spot to level or quest.  Then within a month everyone on the server is copying that person.

take a look at Guild War skill set to see the truth of freedom.  You have a game with 1000s or people running around with the same 10 builds.  In City of Heroes you have 1000s of player running around with the same costume design and simular names.

 

Now look at a restricting game like WoW, DAOC, Lineage 2.  In these games you are very simular to everyone else around you.  Leveling up is basiclaly handed to you in predetermined paths.  Yet in these games players go out of their way more to become unique.  You see player using unorthodox items for their character just to get an edge.  When I played WoW, I was knoown as the paladin that freezes people.  I had many many talks with CSR about hacking all because I thought outside the box and wore a ring made for mages.  I felt more unique in WoW than I did in Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, or Star Wars Galaxies.  there seemed to be more guildes and more people searching for new unique builds in these games than in the open skill system games.

So basically, you claim a minute few have unique builds in skill based games, but basically everyone tries to be unique in restricting class based games? Give me a break. You cannot even try to use WoW in this example because, as once a WoW player, I know you are completely full of crap. Sure, you may have worn an odd piece of gear to be unique, but you are incredibly few in numbers. There are 10 classes in WoW, and nearly every single person in that game will have one of usually 3 builds(3 is stretching it since many classes have only one or two viable builds), one for each tree. I would venture to guess 95% of the people in the game have a talent build similar or identical to everyone else playing that role with that class. Everyone has the same gear too, they all have the same arena gear, or same BG gear, or same raid gear. Their are obvious gear choices that are far superior to others. The situation of everyone running around in the same builds is 10x worst in WoW than it is in skill based games because people actually GRIND UP new characters to make the new fotm builds.

Yes, skill based games have fotm builds, as does EVERY game(point in case, were you in WoW over the last year? Remember the Warlock influx because they were OP? Then the resto druid influx.. Then the rogue influx? Yeah). It is unavoidable. People are going to find the most efficient/best build and they are going to use it. But what does it matter to you? Find what you like and play it.

In SWG, I ran a build that I never saw anyone else have. I loved it, and I did extremely well with it. In Guild Wars, one of my favorite things to do is find and create new builds, and I have made some awesome ones. I don't go around sharing my builds to help avoid the very problem you discussed. But just because so many people lack the imagination and creativity to think for themselves doesn't mean that the systems shouldn't be used.

I've pretty much given up completely on this genre. Hate to admit it but I've returned to my console and single player RPGs. They offer me much more depth and fun then the typical watered down mmorpg of today

I did have some fun in EVE for awhile but alas I tired of the pursuit of ISK.

I still want a sandbox but ideally I'd want something that makes it a lot of fun to accrue wealth, xp, etc. For instance I'm really digging how I can buy a business in Fable 2 and make money offline.

Until mmorpgs figure out ways to make me have fun w/o extreme grinding I'll just stick to my offline RPGs (elder scrolls, fallout 3, fable 2, etc)

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Can I go outside and jump in my spaceship and go shoot down other people? Can I hop on a giant flying griffin and fly around launching fire balls at people? No. It never occured to you that the setting is the escape, and the joy of the game is LIVING like a normal person in a DIFFERENT setting.

Why would I want to live like a normal person in a different setting? That's boring. I play these games to get away from normal. Whether it's throwing myself into a superhero toon in City of Heroes, flying around the city, or traveling across a world filled with orcs and elves in WAR and LOTRO, I'm not in a normal world, so why would I want to be a normal shlub in that game? If I wanted normal, I wouldn't play MMO's.

That never occurred to you because you are absolutely clueless about what you are talking about yet still feel the need to argue with people about what THEY WANT. If we didn't want this, there wouldn't be so many people on this website asking for it. Yet you have come here to argue with us telling us no one wants what so many of us are asking for. Brilliant.

I don't understand how anyone could want normalcy in a fantasy game. Start by explaining that, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. When you're done with that, explain why anyone would want to be the average Joe in a game world. The average Joes are the NPC's. That's why they depend on your character to help them. They can't do it themselves because they're the average and you're the hero who is there to save them from their predicament.

That's how these games work. You start off as just a peon with a crappy weapon in your hand, or whatever, and you slowly work your way up to where you're wearing legendary armor and fighting dragons and gods that are threatening the world. It's a hero's quest no matter how you look at it, and even if there are 10,000 other people on your server on the same journey.

I play single player games to be a hero. It is just plain stupid for everyone to automatically be a hero in an MMORPG. Earning "hero" status, or earning a formidable reputation among the community is one thing, but automatically becoming a hero because the NPC's told you you were is stupid, because when everyone is a hero, when everyone is special, no one is. Again, you don't understand this.

Yes, yes. I get all that. The point is, I can't think of a single person who plays these games just to be the average Joe. Who plays an MMO just to be another cog in the machine? Sure, that's what your character ultimately is because of everyone else playing the same game and everyone else being told by the NPC's that they're a hero. That's not the point.

I believe most folks play these games just to create that character they've always wanted to be, in a world that appeals to them. They fight their way through the game world on their own and with others, eventually getting to those big epic fights so they can get that awesome sword or whatever and feel accomplished. It's why the big battles in the end game are so desireable to people -- no one wants to be stuck killing rats in the n00b yard forever. They want to fight those big monsters and do those impressive raids, not only for the gear, but the prestige of their character fighting those monsters at all. That suggests that normal is anathema to what many players want from these games.

Originally posted by Urrelles

Here's what I notice with sandbox games that frustrates me.  The more freedom you give the people to make whatever they want, the less innovative people get.  Many players claim they want sandbox so they can break away from the average Joe build, then when they get in game they choose the same skills as 1000s of other people and level up in the same zones.  Only a minute few break the mold.  BUT, thos minute few typically do not becomes god like int he game.  they just end up being people with an odd tactic that works only sometimes compared to the pros with their "strategy gide" builds.  Every once in a while someone will break the mold and discover an awesome build or an awesome spot to level or quest.  Then within a month everyone on the server is copying that person.

take a look at Guild War skill set to see the truth of freedom.  You have a game with 1000s or people running around with the same 10 builds.  In City of Heroes you have 1000s of player running around with the same costume design and simular names.

 

Now look at a restricting game like WoW, DAOC, Lineage 2.  In these games you are very simular to everyone else around you.  Leveling up is basiclaly handed to you in predetermined paths.  Yet in these games players go out of their way more to become unique.  You see player using unorthodox items for their character just to get an edge.  When I played WoW, I was knoown as the paladin that freezes people.  I had many many talks with CSR about hacking all because I thought outside the box and wore a ring made for mages.  I felt more unique in WoW than I did in Guild Wars, Anarchy Online, or Star Wars Galaxies.  there seemed to be more guildes and more people searching for new unique builds in these games than in the open skill system games.

Sigh, it's not about "builds" that is such a restricted way to view sandboxes. Take EVE Online. There are no "builds" per se. You grab the skills you want to create a unique character

And dude what are you talking about in City of Heroes you saw 1000s of players running around with the same costumes? I played that game for a year and NEVER saw anyone with a similar costume.

Sandboxes, a fully developed one, will be like EVE Online. Players can build cities. It's not just about your character. You can impact the world itself and that will be your legacy

You can quit the game; never play it again. But there will always be things left behind that you made. In regards to EVE- this maybe a POS that your corp/friends put up. In SWG, this should be the cities and houses you had up. Impact! Not just about your 'character'

That's the problem. Thats why current mmorpgs are so shallow. They only cater to people that sweat over spreadsheets over their 'builds' and GEAR.

So?

The game should have DEPTH. You should be able to go out with your Guild and IMPACT the world. Leave your mark. One day you may quit the game. One day you may logout. But you leave something behind

I dont care if everyone in the game has the same build. I could care less. Just give me the freedom to look unique. Let my player skill make a difference in battle. Give me a lot of tactical options.

Builds; such a shallow way to view mmorpgs.

Originally posted by logicbomb82

+1 Op that is how I feel too. 

 

Asheron's Call  1.5 is our only hope.

If Turbine went back to that progression system...I'd so be there. I heard they were working on another game but haven't heard anything about it yet.

Well, this always comes back to the same points:

1) Entertainment

2) The player's "role"

I know this is obvious, but it's almost completely subjective when you say that some thing is entertaining.  Questing, grinding, raiding, PvP, classes, skills, instances, open world...it just depends on what you like.  You can say that the WoW style of gaming is more entertaining and that's probably true for a lot of people, but not every one. 

The Hero vs Average Joe debate is kind of pointless.  In every MMO, regardless of whether it's "sandbox" or themepark, 99% of players are just average joes.  Every one can't be a hero.  Sure, you can do a bunch of heroic type of quests, but they don't have any effect on the game world and every one else is doing them too...so, you're not really a hero.  A more open MMO just gives you the option of choosing your own path, rather than forcing you through the level grind of the quest train.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Can I go outside and jump in my spaceship and go shoot down other people? Can I hop on a giant flying griffin and fly around launching fire balls at people? No. It never occured to you that the setting is the escape, and the joy of the game is LIVING like a normal person in a DIFFERENT setting.

Why would I want to live like a normal person in a different setting? That's boring. I play these games to get away from normal. Whether it's throwing myself into a superhero toon in City of Heroes, flying around the city, or traveling across a world filled with orcs and elves in WAR and LOTRO, I'm not in a normal world, so why would I want to be a normal shlub in that game? If I wanted normal, I wouldn't play MMO's.

Thats great that YOU want that, that YOU enjoy that, that YOU look for that in an MMO. But clearly, I and many others don't. Lucky for you there is a slew of games that cater just to what you want, and all we ask is for a few games to cater to us. Yet you come here and tell us how what you want is how it should be, and how what we want is wrong. This is what  we want, and if you are too dense to understand that people have different opinions, than explaining it any further is pointless.

That never occurred to you because you are absolutely clueless about what you are talking about yet still feel the need to argue with people about what THEY WANT. If we didn't want this, there wouldn't be so many people on this website asking for it. Yet you have come here to argue with us telling us no one wants what so many of us are asking for. Brilliant.

I don't understand how anyone could want normalcy in a fantasy game. Start by explaining that, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. When you're done with that, explain why anyone would want to be the average Joe in a game world. The average Joes are the NPC's. That's why they depend on your character to help them. They can't do it themselves because they're the average and you're the hero who is there to save them from their predicament.

That's how these games work. You start off as just a peon with a crappy weapon in your hand, or whatever, and you slowly work your way up to where you're wearing legendary armor and fighting dragons and gods that are threatening the world. It's a hero's quest no matter how you look at it, and even if there are 10,000 other people on your server on the same journey.

Thats YOUR opinion,  YOUR ideals, and YOUR wants and needs in a game. See above.

I play single player games to be a hero. It is just plain stupid for everyone to automatically be a hero in an MMORPG. Earning "hero" status, or earning a formidable reputation among the community is one thing, but automatically becoming a hero because the NPC's told you you were is stupid, because when everyone is a hero, when everyone is special, no one is. Again, you don't understand this.

Yes, yes. I get all that. The point is, I can't think of a single person who plays these games just to be the average Joe. Who plays an MMO just to be another cog in the machine? Sure, that's what your character ultimately is because of everyone else playing the same game and everyone else being told by the NPC's that they're a hero. That's not the point.

I believe most folks play these games just to create that character they've always wanted to be, in a world that appeals to them. They fight their way through the game world on their own and with others, eventually getting to those big epic fights so they can get that awesome sword or whatever and feel accomplished. It's why the big battles in the end game are so desireable to people -- no one wants to be stuck killing rats in the n00b yard forever. They want to fight those big monsters and do those impressive raids, not only for the gear, but the prestige of their character fighting those monsters at all. That suggests that normal is anathema to what many players want from these games.

Once again you are speaking for other people. I'm not saying their should be no heroes in the game, but players should earn their reputation by being the best on the server, not because the developers give them god like powers. Again, if you can't understand the idea of differing opinions, than you are too dense to understand any of this. And you don't understand it, but here you are telling people what they think is wrong, then go on to claim you that you know no one that thinks like this even though this thread is full of those people.

 

video games are an escape from reality... why mimic reality... why make a world that copies our economy, copies endless level grinding (sort of like getting up every morning, going to work, coming home and sleeping just to do it again in the morning).

video games, and specifically, MMORPGs should try to be an escape from this abysmally dull, and lack-luster, mundane world we humans live in day after day.

with that said... i would like to play in an mmorpg wherein i can be an average joe, and do nothing special, and beat up on rats all day in the n00b areas forever... then I can log off, go to bed, get up in the morning and go back to work LOL

'nuff said

Originally posted by Abrahmm

And you don't understand it, but here you are telling people what they think is wrong, then go on to claim you that you know no one that thinks like this even though this thread is full of those people.

I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying it makes no sense to me.

If the whole point of a sandbox is to be able to go anywhere, do anything, and be anyone, then it stands to reason that it would require the desire to stand out over others and be treated as a godlike hero by everyone else in the game, or to be otherwise recognized for having a tangible influence and/or impact on the world. That's not a desire for normalcy or to be the average Joe. It's a desire to be the Epic Uber hero of the story, beloved by your admirers and hated by your enemies. It's a way to be the undisputed King of the Hill, and in a way where everyone else will know it when they see you.

That's what I think of when I read all the talk about sandbox games -- being able to forge your own path so that you can truly stand out over everyone else in a game and be recognized as the pinnacle of skill on your server or in the game. What part of that comes from being the average Joe?

I don't know anyone who plays an MMO -- any MMO, whether it's WoW, or WAR, or CoH, or whatever -- that does so just so they can be the normal, average guy in the game world. These games are an escape from all that. I just don't get the mindset you're talking about at all.

 @Abrahamm

If you want to live like a normal person, in fantasy or sci-fi, go outside, and make your own place, you can make it a sci-fi setting or fantasy, and it's much easier than coding a game. 

Wanting sandbox isnt wrong, but why should they make it when the majority wont play and pay for it? Its a huge risk because sandbox is a niche community, if its not exactly right they will quit the game.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Abrahmm

And you don't understand it, but here you are telling people what they think is wrong, then go on to claim you that you know no one that thinks like this even though this thread is full of those people.

I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying it makes no sense to me.

If the whole point of a sandbox is to be able to go anywhere, do anything, and be anyone, then it stands to reason that it would require the desire to stand out over others and be treated as a godlike hero by everyone else in the game, or to be otherwise recognized for having a tangible influence and/or impact on the world. That's not a desire for normalcy or to be the average Joe. It's a desire to be the Epic Uber hero of the story, beloved by your admirers and hated by your enemies. It's a way to be the undisputed King of the Hill, and in a way where everyone else will know it when they see you.

That's what I think of when I read all the talk about sandbox games -- being able to forge your own path so that you can truly stand out over everyone else in a game and be recognized as the pinnacle of skill on your server or in the game. What part of that comes from being the average Joe?

I don't know anyone who plays an MMO -- any MMO, whether it's WoW, or WAR, or CoH, or whatever -- that does so just so they can be the normal, average guy in the game world. These games are an escape from all that. I just don't get the mindset you're talking about at all.

seems like a paradox, everyone wants to be unique and be this ubber hero/godlike character... yet that uniqueness goes away when everyone acheives it.... yep this is a paradox of the human psychological condition known also as "Illusions of Granduer" we all want to be the best, and especially in an MMORGP to show off (I believe this is often referered to as "epeen" by some players) but what happens when everyone is ubber... the uniqeness becomes cheapened...

I think what you're saying is neither wrong nor right, just seems like there's no solution to it.  The only thing that comes to a solution is adding Hardcore mode to all mmorpgs, that way you get one life to reach your godlike/hero status (but if you die, u lose everything).  Again that presents yet another paradox... poeple complain about the loss of uniqueness when everyone acheives high lvls/status, but I'm sure the same complainers would be scared to even play in a Hardcore mode) 

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Abrahmm

And you don't understand it, but here you are telling people what they think is wrong, then go on to claim you that you know no one that thinks like this even though this thread is full of those people.

I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying it makes no sense to me.

If the whole point of a sandbox is to be able to go anywhere, do anything, and be anyone, then it stands to reason that it would require the desire to stand out over others and be treated as a godlike hero by everyone else in the game, or to be otherwise recognized for having a tangible influence and/or impact on the world. That's not a desire for normalcy or to be the average Joe. It's a desire to be the Epic Uber hero of the story, beloved by your admirers and hated by your enemies. It's a way to be the undisputed King of the Hill, and in a way where everyone else will know it when they see you.

That's what I think of when I read all the talk about sandbox games -- being able to forge your own path so that you can truly stand out over everyone else in a game and be recognized as the pinnacle of skill on your server or in the game. What part of that comes from being the average Joe?

I don't know anyone who plays an MMO -- any MMO, whether it's WoW, or WAR, or CoH, or whatever -- that does so just so they can be the normal, average guy in the game world. These games are an escape from all that. I just don't get the mindset you're talking about at all.

Perhaps you may have misunderstood me a little. I agree, that everyone WANTS to stand out, be the hero among their server. I'm saying that they shouldn't be automatically MADE the hero by the developers, but should earn that reputation by being good at what they do. I'm also inferring on being the hero almost always refers to being a great warrior, while the option to simply be a crafter or an entertainer, both roles that aren't very hero like, aren't available in linear games. Their were tons of "average joes" in SWG who solely crafted, entertained, or were doctors. These people weren't playing the game to be a hero, they were playing it to do the jobs above because they enjoyed it, and people earned reputations based on the quality of the goods they made, not because the developers blew smoke up their asses.

Wow. If I may interlude, for just a second

I posted this more out of frustrated retrospect; I sat down at my desk, and took a look at the Warhammer box sitting on my desk; and then looked at the icon on my desktop, unused. So then I launched into a rant - of course i wanted to do it a little differently, so I included sarcasm. I did not expect this thread to grow like this.

Looking  back at what I wrote in my little spout of anger, I can conclude that it is very harsh, but at the same time, very stark and pretty much throws the clothes off the whole "linear MMO" sideshow, and reveals some of the absurdities of linear play.

My original post, regardless if you think its "right" or not, reflects the sentiments of a growing minority, and even reflects the frustrated sentiments of some of the majority. I think there are some people out there which are unhappy with the current treadmill system and would like things to change.

Reading over this thread, I think there are two kinds of people out there in this situation. (I'm not going to count the people who go on uselessly "stop the QQ'ing!" this is a forum idiots!) There are the people who think that sandbox is

A)  under-represented

B)  Is a valid play style

C) Should be represented more

Or there are people who think that sandbox is

A) Unessecasry

B) Is not a valid play style, or is one that is detrimental in some fashion

C) Should be kept down as it is

One of the main arguments of the non sandbox people is that people become too powerful in sandbox and people without the proper skill are not able to advance; only people with greater skill advance farther. People should advance equally, everyone should be a hero, and that way everyone will be happy. Now what political system does this refer to? Yep, thats right, communism and socialism. My goal is not to insult linear games here, but as one other poster but it: its a paradox. When everyone is a hero, when everyone is doing the same thing, then you become the "average joe" or normal. The stark reality of life, and thus, of MMO's, is that only a FEW people can become heroes, and thats that. NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, can change that.

Thats the appeal of MMO's, at least for me. I want to become one of the most feared fighters on the server. Thats what I want to do. Why keep me down all because someone skills are "worse"? Thats the essence of playing video games, and if you notice, the essence of life. When you institute communism, people's production goes DOWN, because they do not have an incentive to work other than basic survival. The same applies to linear game play. The game is automatically watered down because people are restricted through their skills (and only game time matters).

Am I saying that I think linear games are boring? Yes. Am I saying they are not a valid mode of play? Absolutely not.

 But.

I noticed it is simply not fair to punish one group of people. You cannot go on these forums and spout "ALL CAREBEARS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PLAY!" You know what would happen to you? Youd get torn to pieces. Shredded instantly. I think its in general consensous on this forum.Because, well quite frankly, its someone's mode of play, and they should be entitlted to that. The same to sandbox. Its only fair, right?

Many non sandbox supporters state that there isnt any money in sandbox. I beg to differ. There is money in Jeeps and trucks, yet cars are mainstream. Italian and Chinese seem to be the leading food types, yet people still go to Greek and Indian resteraunts as well. Even "if" sandbox is a niche, niches still make good money; you just have to market and create accordingly. And the sad fact is....those big men in suits are *struggling* and you and me know it, they are struggling for a piece of the WoW pie. But I think it hasnt really sunk in yet; WoW is holding a large piece of the Linear crowd, who havent even tried a different MMO, so that crowd is taken up.

Since Sandbox is a nice, and an untapped niche, Adventurine (the creators of Darkfall) is making a very sound business move. To ignore an UNTAPPED niche of people is to ignore a sound business opportunity. And we all know how....well...troubling some of those big suits are with business decisions (Gaute Godager *cough cough* Smedely...yes and even Mythic.)

I mean, to laugh out loud for a second, Runescape can be classified as a Sandbox, and it holds more players than half of the triple AAA MMO's out there. And its a low budget game. Its been running even before Granddaddy WoW came out. And that game is nasty; full loot when you die. So dont tell me sandbox is an unproven niche.

The fact of the matter is, I think that my post and rant resonated with many people out there, especially with the tons of "thumbs up" responses we got. Even the people who do not support sandbox. Why? Because they are posting in this thread.

This is now an 18 page thread. Okay? And its going to go on longer. I think people are underestimating other peoples....capacity for what they like, or enjoy. This niche is bigger than many people think. Do not underestimate an untapped niche. Its a sound business opportunity, and if Adventurine did their game right, theyre going to strike gold.

Originally posted by sanders01

 @Abrahamm

If you want to live like a normal person, in fantasy or sci-fi, go outside, and make your own place, you can make it a sci-fi setting or fantasy, and it's much easier than coding a game. 

Wanting sandbox isnt wrong, but why should they make it when the majority wont play and pay for it? Its a huge risk because sandbox is a niche community, if its not exactly right they will quit the game.

I garuntee you a new good sandbox MMO would get more suscribers than a new theme park MMO .  Theme park MMOs have to compete with WoW.  Sandbox MMOs have no competition out there right now besides Eve...and that's not a very big competition.

These companies that keep trying to knock off WoW just make me cry.  These theme park MMOs are so pathetic.  They have no idea that they can do a lot better with a sandbox.

Originally posted by Ghost12

Wow. If I may interlude, for just a second

I posted this more out of frustrated retrospect; I sat down at my desk, and took a look at the Warhammer box sitting on my desk; and then looked at the icon on my desktop, unused. So then I launched into a rant - of course i wanted to do it a little differently, so I included sarcasm. I did not expect this thread to grow like this.

Looking  back at what I wrote in my little spout of anger, I can conclude that it is very harsh, but at the same time, very stark and pretty much throws the clothes off the whole "linear MMO" sideshow, and reveals some of the absurdities of linear play.

My original post, regardless if you think its "right" or not, reflects the sentiments of a growing minority, and even reflects the frustrated sentiments of some of the majority. I think there are some people out there which are unhappy with the current treadmill system and would like things to change.

Reading over this thread, I think there are two kinds of people out there in this situation. (I'm not going to count the people who go on uselessly "stop the QQ'ing!" this is a forum idiots!) There are the people who think that sandbox is

 

A)  under-represented

B)  Is a valid play style

C) Should be represented more

 

Or there are people who think that sandbox is

 

A) Unessecasry

B) Is not a valid play style, or is one that is detrimental in some fashion

C) Should be kept down as it is

 

One of the main arguments of the non sandbox people is that people become too powerful in sandbox and people without the proper skill are not able to advance; only people with greater skill advance farther. People should advance equally, everyone should be a hero, and that way everyone will be happy. Now what political system does this refer to? Yep, thats right, communism and socialism. My goal is not to insult linear games here, but as one other poster but it: its a paradox. When everyone is a hero, when everyone is doing the same thing, then you become the "average joe" or normal. The stark reality of life, and thus, of MMO's, is that only a FEW people can become heroes, and thats that. NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, can change that.

Thats the appeal of MMO's, at least for me. I want to become one of the most feared fighters on the server. Thats what I want to do. Why keep me down all because someone skills are "worse"? Thats the essence of playing video games, and if you notice, the essence of life. When you institute communism, people's production goes DOWN, because they do not have an incentive to work other than basic survival. The same applies to linear game play. The game is automatically watered down because people are restricted through their skills (and only game time matters).

Am I saying that I think linear games are boring? Yes. Am I saying they are not a valid mode of play? Absolutely not.

 But.

I noticed it is simply not fair to punish one group of people. You cannot go on these forums and spout "ALL CAREBEARS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PLAY!" You know what would happen to you? Youd get torn to pieces. Shredded instantly. I think its in general consensous on this forum.Because, well quite frankly, its someone's mode of play, and they should be entitlted to that. The same to sandbox. Its only fair, right?

Many non sandbox supporters state that there isnt any money in sandbox. I beg to differ. There is money in Jeeps and trucks, yet cars are mainstream. Italian and Chinese seem to be the leading food types, yet people still go to Greek and Indian resteraunts as well. Even "if" sandbox is a niche, niches still make good money; you just have to market and create accordingly. And the sad fact is....those big men in suits are *struggling* and you and me know it, they are struggling for a piece of the WoW pie. But I think it hasnt really sunk in yet; WoW is holding a large piece of the Linear crowd, who havent even tried a different MMO, so that crowd is taken up.

Since Sandbox is a nice, and an untapped niche, Adventurine (the creators of Darkfall) is making a very sound business move. To ignore an UNTAPPED niche of people is to ignore a sound business opportunity. And we all know how....well...troubling some of those big suits are with business decisions (Gaute Godager *cough cough* Smedely...yes and even Mythic.)

I mean, to laugh out loud for a second, Runescape can be classified as a Sandbox, and it holds more players than half of the triple AAA MMO's out there. And its a low budget game. Its been running even before Granddaddy WoW came out. And that game is nasty; full loot when you die. So dont tell me sandbox is an unproven niche.

The fact of the matter is, I think that my post and rant resonated with many people out there, especially with the tons of "thumbs up" responses we got. Even the people who do not support sandbox. Why? Because they are posting in this thread.

This is now an 18 page thread. Okay? And its going to go on longer. I think people are underestimating other peoples....capacity for what they like, or enjoy. This niche is bigger than many people think. Do not underestimate an untapped niche. Its a sound business opportunity, and if Adventurine did their game right, theyre going to strike gold.

... as long at they put Hardcore mode (I.e., you get only one life and death is permanent or until you delete and reroll and start all over), and it's advertised when some other player highlights your toon... I need to feel like my huge ego must be expressed as a godlike player since I want to escape the reality that I"m such a real looser in life.  So if I have a toon in any mmorgp i play it must be advertised that it's a "Hardcore" player.