Originally posted by neonwire

 No levels = no lower level mob spawns.

Just to be irritable, there are supposedly no static mob spawns in DF as we have come to think of them from previous MMOs.

However, more to the point, I disagree. While yes, there are no levels in DF, I think levels and skill are correlated to some degree. And in that sense, of course there will be mobs with lower skills and others with much higher skills. I mean, do you really think they have designed the game that mobs just outside a starting area will have skills of 50 or 90? They would simply decimate a new character. Thus, one would logically conclude that mobs near starting areas will be easier - whether you call them lower level or lower skill, the bottom line is they will be EASIER to kill.

I don't understand why people get so caught up in the levels versus skills debate. In reality, I think the more interesting thing is that DF does not have predescribed CLASSES. Thus, you are free to train in any skill or skill path you so desire and come up with your own skill set that you think has its merits.

Originally posted by Craxis

You know what would be really nice, a newbie area where you can just choose basic weapons and get used to the fighting and movement.  Perhaps you could spawn with any low level spell or weapon you want just to have a very vague feel of each class.  I realize this is probably completely unecessary for the actual world of Agon but if they released this as a separate client that only had AI in the world that would be a neat "trial version".  Maybe even they could throw in some highly skilled AI just to show you how you as a noob would match up verse a veteran.  And before you say it, I know it will never happen.  Just thought it would be neat.

.....or you could just get a feel for different skills by....hmmm.....let me see......how about.......ermmm......playing the game perhaps?

You dont get this feature in any other mmos that I can think of so why would anyone want it in Darkfall?

Also sorry to burst your bubble but not only are there no levels in Darkfall but there are also no classes either.....so....ermmm.....basicly what you would be asking for is to have a sneak preview of what it would be like to be an extremely skilled swordsman or an extremely skilled carpenter or whatever. Well what would you expect it to be like? Each time you click your mouse button you would have a better chance of succeeding. Thats what its like. You dont need a pointless sneak preview to work that out. Oh and no it wouldnt be neat. It would be completely and utterly pointless which is why (like you said) it will never happen

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by neonwire

 No levels = no lower level mob spawns.

Just to be irritable, there are supposedly no static mob spawns in DF as we have come to think of them from previous MMOs.

However, more to the point, I disagree. While yes, there are no levels in DF, I think levels and skill are correlated to some degree. And in that sense, of course there will be mobs with lower skills and others with much higher skills. I mean, do you really think they have designed the game that mobs just outside a starting area will have skills of 50 or 90? They would simply decimate a new character. Thus, one would logically conclude that mobs near starting areas will be easier - whether you call them lower level or lower skill, the bottom line is they will be EASIER to kill.

I don't understand why people get so caught up in the levels versus skills debate. In reality, I think the more interesting thing is that DF does not have predescribed CLASSES. Thus, you are free to train in any skill or skill path you so desire and come up with your own skill set that you think has its merits.

Yeah your right there. I'm curious to know how the creatures will act in Darkfall actually. Will they only roam around a particular small area or will they travel around the game world in groups or individually? If the latter is true then it would make for a pretty varied game experience and would eliminate any daft ideas that people might have of trying to find weaker characters in particular areas.

I do know what you mean about people saying that levels and skills are different but actually they are. With a skill system its harder to precisely define how powerful someone is. Even if you were able to compare all of the skills and stats of one player with another it could still be difficult to determine who is better. Each player would be good in certain situations. A seemingly weak character might be able to overcome a seemingly strong character if a certain situation came up. A person who is a master swordsman might not be able to defeat a rich master blacksmith who has recently outfitted and paid his 10 bodyguards

Also one of the main things that seperates Darkfall from other games is the fact that you cant see anyone elses details and instead have go by what you can see.....and even that can be totally misleading. This simple feature alone negates a lot of the gank-whining arguments people keep thoughtlessly chucking about.

Originally posted by neonwire

Yeah your right there. I'm curious to know how the creatures will act in Darkfall actually. Will they only roam around a particular small area or will they travel around the game world in groups or individually? If the latter is true then it would make for a pretty varied game experience and would eliminate any daft ideas that people might have of trying to find weaker characters in particular areas.

I do know what you mean about people saying that levels and skills are different but actually they are. With a skill system its harder to precisely define how powerful someone is. Even if you were able to compare all of the skills and stats of one player with another it could still be difficult to determine who is better. Each player would be good in certain situations. A seemingly weak character might be able to overcome a seemingly strong character if a certain situation came up. A person who is a master swordsman might not be able to defeat a rich master blacksmith who has recently outfitted and paid his 10 bodyguards

Also one of the main things that seperates Darkfall from other games is the fact that you cant see anyone elses details and instead have go by what you can see.....and even that can be totally misleading. This simple feature alone negates a lot of the gank-whining arguments people keep thoughtlessly chucking about.

I agree with all you said here. One thing left to be determined is how how much gear of differing power or skill looks - it may be easier or harder to identify higher skilled opponents. But as you said, depending on the situation a blademaster may find himself wishing he had other skills at his disposal.

However, I didn't say that levels aren't different from skills - they most certainly are. However, do have some sort of correlation. And thus, it logically follows that there will be starting areas where the mobs around them will have lower skills such that new characters can kill them.

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by neonwire

Yeah your right there. I'm curious to know how the creatures will act in Darkfall actually. Will they only roam around a particular small area or will they travel around the game world in groups or individually? If the latter is true then it would make for a pretty varied game experience and would eliminate any daft ideas that people might have of trying to find weaker characters in particular areas.

I do know what you mean about people saying that levels and skills are different but actually they are. With a skill system its harder to precisely define how powerful someone is. Even if you were able to compare all of the skills and stats of one player with another it could still be difficult to determine who is better. Each player would be good in certain situations. A seemingly weak character might be able to overcome a seemingly strong character if a certain situation came up. A person who is a master swordsman might not be able to defeat a rich master blacksmith who has recently outfitted and paid his 10 bodyguards

Also one of the main things that seperates Darkfall from other games is the fact that you cant see anyone elses details and instead have go by what you can see.....and even that can be totally misleading. This simple feature alone negates a lot of the gank-whining arguments people keep thoughtlessly chucking about.

I agree with all you said here. One thing left to be determined is how how much gear of differing power or skill looks - it may be easier or harder to identify higher skilled opponents. But as you said, depending on the situation a blademaster may find himself wishing he had other skills at his disposal.

However, I didn't say that levels aren't different from skills - they most certainly are. However, do have some sort of correlation. And thus, it logically follows that there will be starting areas where the mobs around them will have lower skills such that new characters can kill them.

Actually wouldnt it be great if Darkfall says "Bollocks to the logical conclusion cos life doesnt work that way" and actually just allows its creatures to wander wherever they please? So a new player logs into the game, creates their character and enters the world of Agon. They wander around town for a bit, get used to the game, get a few supplies and some basic equipment and then set off through the city gates into the wilderness outside. An hour later as they are traveling through the hills the player sees a small speck in the sky and as it gets larger the player realises that its a dragon! Its not a scripted event and the creature hasnt been placed there like some kind of living signpost with the words "Kill me and farm me for phat loot". No this dragon is out hunting and it doesnt give a shit if one of those little creatures on the ground is weak or strong. Its all just food to the dragon.....actually stronger tastes better! So the player has to quickly find somewhere to hide or run the risk of being spotted and eaten by the dragon.

Many weak-minded players would whine about how unfair it was that they had to meet a dragon so early in the game. They would cry and complain about game balance and how everything should be tailored to give them a fair, smooth and easy ride. I on the other hand would be jumping up and down with glee. I would be saying "Oh my god my new fledgling adventurer just got eaten by a dragon. Its actually realistic because the whole point of dragons being so old and powerful is that players DONT get to kill them easily. It actually works the other way round".

Unfortunately I doubt situations like this will occur and the game will probably follow along the usual approach that nearly all games take of having certain areas designated with varying levels of toughness.......despite the fact that its completely unrealistic. Oh we cant upset the pathetic players can we oh no no.

I hope Darkfall doesnt do this and for once we actually end up getting an mmo that is truly dangerous to explore where the creatures dont give a toss about how weak or strong someone is. I'm sure many people think that a game like that would cause many players to quit in frustration but I say fuck em and make it that way anyway. I actually think a game like that would be very appealing to many people as it would be totally unique. No other game would be able to offer a similar experience. Even the players that quit would probably begin the miss the challenge and realism they once faced after they had gone back to playing the other easy & bland mmos for a while.

Originally posted by neonwire

 No levels = no lower level mob spawns.

sorry but thats total BS. ofcorse it will have mobs that are lower or higher "level" /  "strength", however you wish to think of it.

if all the mobs are the same strength then there really is no reason to have mobs an just make the game purely pvp with no pve. if a noob with no skill thats just started could kill something someone with high skill levels can then thats just stupid. you have to start somewhere.. like in uo.. you couldent go out right away an kill a dragon, had to smack a few chickens around 1st haha or a goat.. a headless one.. something.. to get your skills up enough to fight something worth while.

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Craxis

You know what would be really nice, a newbie area where you can just choose basic weapons and get used to the fighting and movement.  Perhaps you could spawn with any low level spell or weapon you want just to have a very vague feel of each class.  I realize this is probably completely unecessary for the actual world of Agon but if they released this as a separate client that only had AI in the world that would be a neat "trial version".  Maybe even they could throw in some highly skilled AI just to show you how you as a noob would match up verse a veteran.  And before you say it, I know it will never happen.  Just thought it would be neat.

 

.....or you could just get a feel for different skills by....hmmm.....let me see......how about.......ermmm......playing the game perhaps?

You dont get this feature in any other mmos that I can think of so why would anyone want it in Darkfall?

Also sorry to burst your bubble but not only are there no levels in Darkfall but there are also no classes either.....so....ermmm.....basicly what you would be asking for is to have a sneak preview of what it would be like to be an extremely skilled swordsman or an extremely skilled carpenter or whatever. Well what would you expect it to be like? Each time you click your mouse button you would have a better chance of succeeding. Thats what its like. You dont need a pointless sneak preview to work that out. Oh and no it wouldnt be neat. It would be completely and utterly pointless which is why (like you said) it will never happen

When i said low level weapon or spell. I didn't mean level of character i meant level of skill.  Why is it that as soon as someone says level people scream THERE AREN"T ANY LEVELS why not consider what is being said.  Low level SKILL like very untrained skill. And no i never said so you could see what its like to  be a highly skilled player i was saying you could see what its like to FIGHT a highly skilled player to see "how as a noob you would match up verse a veteran."  And when i said class once again you completely missed the point of CLASS OF WEAPON/ATTACK .  Try not to be so critical over word choice then i wont have to be so critical explaining why you misread what i said.

The game should allow ganking. Gank teams. Gank NATIONS. Hell if someone was persuasive enough to get a hundred players together and murder everybody on the server... it doesnt make him a ganker... it makes him a leader with a cause.

If you find a player(s) who resembles the bad guy from "The Postman" (Will Patton, 1997) you should do what Kevin Costner did... FIND (or found) YOUR OWN ARMY!

Or just continue to die... or run. All very viable options.

Reports show when a game is designed for mainly pvp theres going to be pvp. Complaining about ganking will come when Darkfall is finally released. You just have to remind people its a pvp game and not a quest grinder.

 It's a pvp game ... where 2 guilds get formed and just farm people for gear,there needs to be some sort of punishment system for continuosly killing random players or one guild will dominate the server and people will just leave.

Yah know, i have always found it funny when people cry about being ganked. or being protected from ganking... or even the term gank. In old school DnD the one guy who wanted to gank never got to play again, in text based MUD's, PK became the term, which followed thru to Ultima Online. I think the first time I heard gank was in EverQuest, and I laughed then as I laugh now.

Back in dah dey, anyone could fight you, and especially before vision, you pretty much could not see who was a bad ass or not.

Enter WoW's coloring system for honor: grey: none, green: easy kill but still some honor, ect ect... enter the ganker as is feared in most MMO's now.

Even in WoW, most bully gankers can't play, I seen a 39 beat up a 60 ganker, no problem. Now back to my chuckling.

Gank Teams might come out, might even become a threat, then choose to be called outlaws and add a whole new dimension to the game.

In EVE, i cut my 0.0 teeth on low sec "gankers", normally called pirates.

Point being, go play in something else if you can't handle the heat. 'Nuf said.

Oh, and because of this discussion I am now interested in Darkfall.

Originally posted by neonwire 

Actually wouldnt it be great if Darkfall says "Bollocks to the logical conclusion cos life doesnt work that way" and actually just allows its creatures to wander wherever they please? So a new player logs into the game, creates their character and enters the world of Agon. They wander around town for a bit, get used to the game, get a few supplies and some basic equipment and then set off through the city gates into the wilderness outside. An hour later as they are traveling through the hills the player sees a small speck in the sky and as it gets larger the player realises that its a dragon! Its not a scripted event and the creature hasnt been placed there like some kind of living signpost with the words "Kill me and farm me for phat loot". No this dragon is out hunting and it doesnt give a shit if one of those little creatures on the ground is weak or strong. Its all just food to the dragon.....actually stronger tastes better! So the player has to quickly find somewhere to hide or run the risk of being spotted and eaten by the dragon.

Many weak-minded players would whine about how unfair it was that they had to meet a dragon so early in the game. They would cry and complain about game balance and how everything should be tailored to give them a fair, smooth and easy ride. I on the other hand would be jumping up and down with glee. I would be saying "Oh my god my new fledgling adventurer just got eaten by a dragon. Its actually realistic because the whole point of dragons being so old and powerful is that players DONT get to kill them easily. It actually works the other way round".

Unfortunately I doubt situations like this will occur and the game will probably follow along the usual approach that nearly all games take of having certain areas designated with varying levels of toughness.......despite the fact that its completely unrealistic. Oh we cant upset the pathetic players can we oh no no.

I hope Darkfall doesnt do this and for once we actually end up getting an mmo that is truly dangerous to explore where the creatures dont give a toss about how weak or strong someone is. I'm sure many people think that a game like that would cause many players to quit in frustration but I say fuck em and make it that way anyway. I actually think a game like that would be very appealing to many people as it would be totally unique. No other game would be able to offer a similar experience. Even the players that quit would probably begin the miss the challenge and realism they once faced after they had gone back to playing the other easy & bland mmos for a while.

I remember when I first started EQ and was playing happily along killing some spider, when all of a sudden I get wtfpwned by a skeleton (they had some aggressive lvl 8-10 skeletons that would roam near or into the starting area). The first time it happened it was definitely shocking and exciting - and of course made me worry what would happen to my gear. That being said, having really powerful mobs roam near starting areas would cause major difficulties in being able to skill up if you couldn't find anything you could actually kill. Obviously they could just make the occurence rare, and maybe that would just leave the excitement aspect of never knowing what could happen. At any rate, hopefully their mob habitats and non-static spawns will make PvE different in that sense. I'm skeptical, but maybe they came up with some good ideas and actually succeeded in implementing them.

I laughed when i heard the term too but i use it just the same to describe GANg Killing.  The team part is the guy waiting by the bank to loot.  I guess when i started this thread, i was picturing snipers firing at the bank from outside of town. I am glad my thread made you interested in DF

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by neonwire 

Actually wouldnt it be great if Darkfall says "Bollocks to the logical conclusion cos life doesnt work that way" and actually just allows its creatures to wander wherever they please? So a new player logs into the game, creates their character and enters the world of Agon. They wander around town for a bit, get used to the game, get a few supplies and some basic equipment and then set off through the city gates into the wilderness outside. An hour later as they are traveling through the hills the player sees a small speck in the sky and as it gets larger the player realises that its a dragon! Its not a scripted event and the creature hasnt been placed there like some kind of living signpost with the words "Kill me and farm me for phat loot". No this dragon is out hunting and it doesnt give a shit if one of those little creatures on the ground is weak or strong. Its all just food to the dragon.....actually stronger tastes better! So the player has to quickly find somewhere to hide or run the risk of being spotted and eaten by the dragon.

Many weak-minded players would whine about how unfair it was that they had to meet a dragon so early in the game. They would cry and complain about game balance and how everything should be tailored to give them a fair, smooth and easy ride. I on the other hand would be jumping up and down with glee. I would be saying "Oh my god my new fledgling adventurer just got eaten by a dragon. Its actually realistic because the whole point of dragons being so old and powerful is that players DONT get to kill them easily. It actually works the other way round".

Unfortunately I doubt situations like this will occur and the game will probably follow along the usual approach that nearly all games take of having certain areas designated with varying levels of toughness.......despite the fact that its completely unrealistic. Oh we cant upset the pathetic players can we oh no no.

I hope Darkfall doesnt do this and for once we actually end up getting an mmo that is truly dangerous to explore where the creatures dont give a toss about how weak or strong someone is. I'm sure many people think that a game like that would cause many players to quit in frustration but I say fuck em and make it that way anyway. I actually think a game like that would be very appealing to many people as it would be totally unique. No other game would be able to offer a similar experience. Even the players that quit would probably begin the miss the challenge and realism they once faced after they had gone back to playing the other easy & bland mmos for a while.

I remember when I first started EQ and was playing happily along killing some spider, when all of a sudden I get wtfpwned by a skeleton (they had some aggressive lvl 8-10 skeletons that would roam near or into the starting area). The first time it happened it was definitely shocking and exciting - and of course made me worry what would happen to my gear. That being said, having really powerful mobs roam near starting areas would cause major difficulties in being able to skill up if you couldn't find anything you could actually kill. Obviously they could just make the occurence rare, and maybe that would just leave the excitement aspect of never knowing what could happen. At any rate, hopefully their mob habitats and non-static spawns will make PvE different in that sense. I'm skeptical, but maybe they came up with some good ideas and actually succeeded in implementing them.

Ah but the difference there is that the level 8-10 skeletons were scripted to always roam around in that particular area. They would always be there so after your first encounter you would know to avoid them until your level was higher as they never left their designated area.

I think it would be great if the equivelent of those skeletons in Darkfall roamed wherever they pleased so even if you spotted one in a particular area it might not neccessarily be there an hour later. Also having powerful creatures roaming around near starting areas wouldnt necessarily cause a problem with increasing your skills because regardless of what you are fighting your skills would still be getting used. Whether you are fighting a dragon or a goblin you are still swinging a sword, firing a bow or casting a spell or whatever. Also its not as though the dangerous creature/s will always be there to threaten weaker players.

Besides for me personally I dont think I'm going to be interested in playing the game to "level up" my skills. Thats the kind of mentality that has been put into peoples heads by playing all of the other story driven level based mmos where the only way to make any progress is to go up levels. In Darkfall hopefully I will get the opportunity to actually roleplay a character and I wont be measuring my progress by how high I can get a bunch of numbers to reach. If there is a giant demon from hell wandering around outside town and I end up not improving my fighting skill for a while because I'm too scared to go outside then it wont bother me. I'll just do something else. As long as I am presented with situations that I can choose to react to however I like then thats fine with me.

Originally posted by neonwire 

Ah but the difference there is that the level 8-10 skeletons were scripted to always roam around in that particular area. They would always be there so after your first encounter you would know to avoid them until your level was higher as they never left their designated area.

I think it would be great if the equivelent of those skeletons in Darkfall roamed wherever they pleased so even if you spotted one in a particular area it might not neccessarily be there an hour later. Also having powerful creatures roaming around near starting areas wouldnt necessarily cause a problem with increasing your skills because regardless of what you are fighting your skills would still be getting used. Whether you are fighting a dragon or a goblin you are still swinging a sword, firing a bow or casting a spell or whatever. Also its not as though the dangerous creature/s will always be there to threaten weaker players.

Besides for me personally I dont think I'm going to be interested in playing the game to "level up" my skills. Thats the kind of mentality that has been put into peoples heads by playing all of the other story driven level based mmos where the only way to make any progress is to go up levels. In Darkfall hopefully I will get the opportunity to actually roleplay a character and I wont be measuring my progress by how high I can get a bunch of numbers to reach. If there is a giant demon from hell wandering around outside town and I end up not improving my fighting skill for a while because I'm too scared to go outside then it wont bother me. I'll just do something else. As long as I am presented with situations that I can choose to react to however I like then thats fine with me.

Yes, they had a set pathing, however there were other lvl 1 skeletons that looked exactly the same, so the high lvl ones blended in pretty damn well. As well as the fact that I was young and probably didn't pay good enough attention and would let them sneak up on me as I was fighting another mob :)

In terms of what you described, I was logically thinking that a new player would be killed by a dragon in one or two hits, and I can't imagine your skills would increase. I suppose I am interested in increasing my skills because I'd rather prefer of having multiple spells at my disposal rather than the two starter ones. I'm all for roleplaying because it isn't fun to simply level and gear up just because the game has been designed that way. Hopefully the game game will encourage it and it will be a fun way to play. However, in all reality we don't know the specifics about how things will function including mobs, npc guards, skill leveling and decay, clan cities, crafting, etc.

Not going to read all the replies, but the easiest way to prevent this from happening is 1) Guards that can 1 shot, 2) Making towns safe zones.

This issue is probably what will make or break the game for me.

I really like the idea of not being able to tell how strong someone is compared to yourself as that alone will put a lot more risk onto the ganker.

The race aspect also seems like it will prevent ganking somewhat since killing those of your own race seems like it will mess up your faction with city guards.

But probably the most important aspects will be based on how the skill system and gear works and how level a playing field is given to noobs.

For instance if all characters are given a base health number that doesn't increase with experience, then a vet won't necessarily have a huge advantage in terms of surviability right off the bat.

Additionally, if the combat system is significantly influenced by timing, aiming, blocking, kiting, and dodging like it appears to be, then a noob should still be able to conceivably put up a decent fight.

I think as long as noobs have some ability to fight back, then the game can remain competitive and fun for everyone, which is something that is severely lacking in many so called pvp mmorogs.

If this game is all based on player skill.  Many MMORPG players may hate it.  I used to play fps all the time.  I could kill nearly anyone in tribes vengeance with the weapons everyone said were useless.  In battlefield 2 i could go toe to toe with a player weilding machine gun with just a pistol in one hand and my........ pride in the other and win.  If its all skill a newbie could actually fight a veteran and win. 

whats to stop them from getting ganked by a different party

Is it my imagination or does it seem like people are getting a little too paranoid about pvping?