i just started and having fun, long as you specialize in something you can be competetive

Originally posted by x_rast_x

Originally posted by skankyrart

I'd say that you could train to be a tackling cruiser relatively fast, but in reality pvp in 0.0 space requires a BC, BS, or t2 ship - all of which will take that 4-6 months to be adequately trained in (note, I did pvp in a cruiser, but you won't be doing much dmg to a BS). Note, to be able to kill pirates in 0.0 space you need to be at least moderately trained to fly a battlecruiser. As an aside, I think it would be very interesting if they started a new server and you could see the game develop from the beginning.

Yep, and this is exactly why people like me stay the fuck out of 0.0 and are having a blast in Factional Warfare - where the blobs are smaller, entirely avoidable, and T1 frigs are fine.  Hell, I know a four-year vet, he's one of the best pilots in the Gallente militia and he spends most of his time in a Tristan, though he fits his different than I fit mine

One of the biggest advantages Eve has right now, and, imo, the reason it's still growing is there's no fixed progression - you log in, you do what you like.  Odds are whatever you like, there's a way to do it in Eve, so long as it involves spaceships.

Next to the whole 'I can't catch up to people in SPs' bit, I think the biggest misconception about Eve from people who don't play (and even those who do) is that there's some sort of end-game, and you have to be in 0.0 to experience it.  There is no 'end-game', just the game.

and soon that wont even be a limitation with the upcoming ambulation, bar owners, shop owners, fleet meetings, diplomatic negociations between 2 corps at war

i can;t wait

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Nicoli

  Generally with about a month of skill training before wasting time on learnings you can get all of the skills to the point where you can survive and live in 0.0. 

I definitely agree that knowing the basic mechanics and strategies of pvp is an absolute must, and that one can learn these somewhat in a noob corp in low sec. However, I completely disagree about your statement on 0.0 fleet combat. In my time playing the game, the largest fleet battle I participated in was the most fun and exciting time I have experienced in an MMO since I first played EQ long ago.

I do not quite believe your statement in red. Another person in thread said 4-6 months, and I said about 1.5 to 3 months. Obviously it is very subjective, as it depends on what role you are trying to fill and how much training you think is adequate. I know when I started 0.0 pvp I played in a cheaply outfitted cruiser as I expected to die. I guess I don't quite remember how long it takes to train the learning skills (3 weeks? at least to get a good amount of them), but I really would not advise training anything before them as you are being incredibly inefficient and are going to slow yourself down from getting to the point where you would be well skilled for pvp.

Again, all of this only applies if he is interested in pvp in EVE. If you want to do missions, mine, manufacture, or trade then you can start immediately (although I would still suggest tossing learning skills in if you think you will play the game for anything longer than 2 months) and will slowly develop an increased repertoire of skills.

1 month is about all you need any more to fit a Tier 2 battlecruiser that can kill of most 0.0 spawns for isk as well as be a viable ship for most ops. Sure you can waste 3 weeks with learning skills before that and it takes about 1.5 to 2 months then, as during that critical time period your advancing your characters ability absolutely none.... Does absolutely no good for a new player... everyone is soo damn conscerned about how much time they'll save over the 20+ years to max out thier character that they miss the fact that most people who pound out the learning skills during month one hate the game. To prove the point I took one of my alts with 950k skillpoints, a little bit more then what you start with I believe and ran him up to fly a harbringer that would be at least able to do 0.0 ratting in most case. is he great at it hell no but he'll survive. He also has the base skills to work well in small gang warfare as well as fit a decient cheap disposable ship for fleets. With no additional learning skills

[b]Skill plan for Dark testman[/b]

1. [b]Amarr Cruiser I[/b] (1 hour, 44 minutes, 10 seconds)
2. [b]Amarr Cruiser II[/b] (8 hours, 5 minutes, 10 seconds)
3. [b]Amarr Cruiser III[/b] (1 day, 21 hours, 44 minutes)
4. [b]Battlecruisers I[/b] (2 hours, 5 minutes)
5. [b]Battlecruisers II[/b] (9 hours, 42 minutes, 10 seconds)
6. [b]Medium Energy Turret I[/b] (1 hour, 2 minutes, 30 seconds)
7. [b]Repair Systems I[/b] (20 minutes)
8. [b]Repair Systems II[/b] (1 hour, 33 minutes, 12 seconds)
9. [b]Repair Systems III[/b] (8 hours, 46 minutes, 48 seconds)
10. [b]Repair Systems IV[/b] (2 days, 1 hour, 40 minutes, 24 seconds)
11. [b]Hull Upgrades I[/b] (40 minutes)
12. [b]Hull Upgrades II[/b] (3 hours, 6 minutes, 19 seconds)
13. [b]Hull Upgrades III[/b] (17 hours, 33 minutes, 40 seconds)
14. [b]Hull Upgrades IV[/b] (4 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes, 48 seconds)
15. [b]Science I[/b] (20 minutes)
16. [b]Energy Grid Upgrades I[/b] (40 minutes)
17. [b]Energy Grid Upgrades II[/b] (3 hours, 6 minutes, 19 seconds)
18. [b]Energy Grid Upgrades III[/b] (17 hours, 33 minutes, 40 seconds)
19. [b]Energy Grid Upgrades IV[/b] (4 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes, 48 seconds)
20. [b]Weapon Upgrades II[/b] (3 hours, 6 minutes, 19 seconds)
21. [b]Weapon Upgrades III[/b] (17 hours, 33 minutes, 40 seconds)
22. [b]Weapon Upgrades IV[/b] (4 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes, 48 seconds)
23. [b]Navigation I[/b] (23 minutes, 48 seconds)
24. [b]Navigation II[/b] (1 hour, 50 minutes, 57 seconds)
25. [b]Propulsion Jamming I[/b] (1 hour)
26. [b]Propulsion Jamming II[/b] (4 hours, 39 minutes, 26 seconds)
27. [b]Weapon Disruption I[/b] (1 hour)
28. [b]Electronic Warfare I[/b] (40 minutes)
29. [b]Sensor Linking I[/b] (1 hour)
30. [b]Drones I[/b] (17 minutes, 14 seconds)
31. [b]Scout Drone Operation I[/b] (17 minutes, 14 seconds)
32. [b]Energy Management I[/b] (1 hour)
33. [b]Energy Management II[/b] (4 hours, 39 minutes, 26 seconds)
34. [b]Energy Management III[/b] (1 day, 2 hours, 20 minutes, 33 seconds)
35. [b]Energy Management IV[/b] (6 days, 5 hours, 1 minute, 12 seconds)
36. [b]Battlecruisers III[/b] (2 days, 6 hours, 52 minutes, 50 seconds)

all total approximately one month 30days 17hours and some change

Now adding learnings....

Skill plan for Dark testman

1. Instant Recall I (17 minutes, 14 seconds)
2. Analytical Mind I (16 minutes, 7 seconds)
3. Learning I (15 minutes, 37 seconds)
4. Instant Recall II (1 hour, 11 minutes, 23 seconds)
5. Analytical Mind II (1 hour, 7 minutes, 11 seconds)
6. Learning II (1 hour, 5 minutes, 15 seconds)
7. Instant Recall III (6 hours, 1 minute, 48 seconds)
8. Analytical Mind III (5 hours, 42 minutes, 15 seconds)
9. Learning III (5 hours, 33 minutes, 14 seconds)
10. Instant Recall IV (1 day, 6 hours, 49 minutes, 48 seconds)
11. Eidetic Memory I (35 minutes, 22 seconds)
12. Eidetic Memory II (2 hours, 36 minutes, 55 seconds)
13. Eidetic Memory III (14 hours, 7 minutes, 12 seconds)
14. Analytical Mind IV (1 day, 1 hour, 28 minutes, 5 seconds)
15. Logic I (35 minutes, 22 seconds)
16. Logic II (2 hours, 36 minutes, 55 seconds)
17. Logic III (14 hours, 7 minutes, 12 seconds)
18. Eidetic Memory IV (2 days, 22 hours, 17 minutes, 32 seconds)
19. Logic IV (3 days, 2 hours, 46 minutes, 45 seconds)
20. Spatial Awareness I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
21. Iron Will I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
22. Empathy I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
23. Spatial Awareness II (41 minutes, 28 seconds)
24. Iron Will II (41 minutes, 28 seconds)
25. Empathy II (41 minutes, 28 seconds)
26. Spatial Awareness III (3 hours, 54 minutes, 25 seconds)
27. Iron Will III (3 hours, 54 minutes, 25 seconds)
28. Spatial Awareness IV (22 hours, 6 minutes, 16 seconds)
29. Iron Will IV (22 hours, 6 minutes, 16 seconds)
30. Focus I (41 minutes, 37 seconds)
31. Clarity I (38 minutes, 14 seconds)
32. Focus II (3 hours, 3 minutes, 4 seconds)
33. Clarity II (2 hours, 44 minutes, 45 seconds)
34. Focus III (16 hours, 20 minutes, 58 seconds)
35. Clarity III (14 hours, 26 minutes, 54 seconds)
36. Focus IV (3 days, 15 hours, 51 minutes, 56 seconds)
37. Clarity IV (3 days, 4 hours, 24 minutes, 17 seconds)
38. Drones I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
39. Scout Drone Operation I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
40. Repair Systems I (9 minutes, 37 seconds)
41. Science I (9 minutes, 37 seconds)
42. Navigation I (10 minutes, 28 seconds)
43. Hull Upgrades I (19 minutes, 15 seconds)
44. Energy Grid Upgrades I (19 minutes, 15 seconds)
45. Electronic Warfare I (19 minutes, 15 seconds)
46. Weapon Disruption I (28 minutes, 52 seconds)
47. Sensor Linking I (28 minutes, 52 seconds)
48. Energy Management I (28 minutes, 52 seconds)
49. Medium Energy Turret I (29 minutes, 28 seconds)
50. Repair Systems II (44 minutes, 51 seconds)
51. Amarr Cruiser I (49 minutes, 8 seconds)
52. Navigation II (48 minutes, 50 seconds)
53. Propulsion Jamming I (28 minutes, 52 seconds)
54. Battlecruisers I (58 minutes, 57 seconds)
55. Hull Upgrades II (1 hour, 29 minutes, 40 seconds)
56. Energy Grid Upgrades II (1 hour, 29 minutes, 40 seconds)
57. Weapon Upgrades II (1 hour, 29 minutes, 40 seconds)
58. Propulsion Jamming II (2 hours, 14 minutes, 30 seconds)
59. Energy Management II (2 hours, 14 minutes, 30 seconds)
60. Amarr Cruiser II (3 hours, 48 minutes, 51 seconds)
61. Repair Systems III (4 hours, 13 minutes, 33 seconds)
62. Battlecruisers II (4 hours, 34 minutes, 36 seconds)
63. Hull Upgrades III (8 hours, 27 minutes, 9 seconds)
64. Energy Grid Upgrades III (8 hours, 27 minutes, 9 seconds)
65. Weapon Upgrades III (8 hours, 27 minutes, 9 seconds)
66. Energy Management III (12 hours, 40 minutes, 45 seconds)
67. Amarr Cruiser III (21 hours, 34 minutes, 20 seconds)
68. Repair Systems IV (23 hours, 54 minutes, 32 seconds)
69. Battlecruisers III (1 day, 1 hour, 53 minutes, 13 seconds)
70. Hull Upgrades IV (1 day, 23 hours, 49 minutes, 4 seconds)
71. Energy Grid Upgrades IV (1 day, 23 hours, 49 minutes, 4 seconds)
72. Weapon Upgrades IV (1 day, 23 hours, 49 minutes, 4 seconds)
73. Energy Management IV (2 days, 23 hours, 43 minutes, 37 seconds)

Total time: 36 days, 3 hours, 58 minutes, 4 seconds

its 6 days longer and its almost 20 days till you see any improvement to your characters ability

you can push the learnings off till the second and third month or better yet just selectively do the learning skills that you need. The first one then drops to about 20 days if you only use the applicable learning skills for it which frees up some time to get some of the skills up to lvl 4 people waste a lot of early game time trying to save time in the long run, get fed up with not being able to do anything and quit never getting the use out of what they wasted the time on to begin with. I'd love for the learning skills to not even show up for new players till after thier first month.

AS for 0.0 fleet pvp I don't know how you found fleet pvp interesting.considering it was mostly just waiting for you to lock, waiting for your modules to activate switch to new target. Now you may be refering to much smaller engagements with about 25-50 people per side which is generally a mid sized to small gang engagement in eve terms.

Originally posted by Nicoli

1 month is about all you need any more to fit a Tier 2 battlecruiser that can kill of most 0.0 spawns for isk as well as be a viable ship for most ops. Sure you can waste 3 weeks with learning skills before that and it takes about 1.5 to 2 months then, as during that critical time period your advancing your characters ability absolutely none.... Does absolutely no good for a new player... everyone is soo damn conscerned about how much time they'll save over the 20+ years to max out thier character that they miss the fact that most people who pound out the learning skills during month one hate the game. To prove the point I took one of my alts with 950k skillpoints, a little bit more then what you start with I believe and ran him up to fly a harbringer that would be at least able to do 0.0 ratting in most case. is he great at it hell no but he'll survive. He also has the base skills to work well in small gang warfare as well as fit a decient cheap disposable ship for fleets. With no additional learning skills

AS for 0.0 fleet pvp I don't know how you found fleet pvp interesting.considering it was mostly just waiting for you to lock, waiting for your modules to activate switch to new target. Now you may be refering to much smaller engagements with about 25-50 people per side which is generally a mid sized to small gang engagement in eve terms.

Well, that is good information to have - although you're talking about 0.0 ratting in a t2 bc instead of training something for pvp. My guess was 1.5-3 months, so 1 month doesn't sound too far off especially if you only selectively train learning skills. My sentiment remains the same however. It is sad that you are pretty much forced to wait a month to participate in pvp when the game is quite enjoyable in that respect (again, not really counting low sec, although I guess I had a few fun moments as a noob when I wasn't dying to t2 vets). Of course, for those who are not interested in pvp, then this whole discussion does not matter unless pvpers are ruining your day and I suppose you could always hire some mercs.

In regards to the 0.0 fleet pvp, I only participated in a couple large scale (200 or so ships involved) battles. So the fun and excitement was probably just due the new feeling with the large number of ships dying and the reinforcements and such. I can imagine it is quite expensive and boring for those who have played longer. That being said, I also participated in lots of roaming gangs, gate camps, and solo pvp. I suppose it all gets boring if that is all you do - you have to change things up every now and then.

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

and in any other MMORPG how long would it take you to reach the "gates of hell" (arbitrary name) end game?

treat the 0.0 space as hostile space that you should not go untill you actually have some experience playing the game. im sure you would not take a lvl 10 character to an end game dungeon would you?

And anyway, taking WAR, for example, it takes about a month, give or take, for the average gamer to hit lvl 40 and acquire a decent amount of gear to get to the "end game" of t4 zone control, fortress sieges, and ultimately city sieges. But pvp shouldn't be "end game" content in EVE and as such it  shouldn't take 2 months to train up enough skills such that you stand somewhat of a chance out there.

well games like WAR or WoW or EQ2 or AoC are games that are meant for the general masses where everything needed to play the game decently (not the greatest items but enough to be average) is handed to you on a silver platter with very minimal effort. now EVE is not like that, you need to be logical and you have to think a bit on how you are going to proceed. there is no marked path that you take in order to do X thing. you have to figure it out and plan it out. so if you want to pvp, you have to

a) work for your ship and equipment (being missions or trading or mining)

b) think of the skills you need and their pre-requisits (heh reminds me of my choosing classes for university)

c) find yourself a corp that fits your chosen game style (pirating, mercenary, anti-pirate industrial trading etc...)

 

on a normal MMORPG such as WoW or WAR you start at lvl 1 and next step is level 2 and then level 3 and so on. and enemies get harder the further you go from the town. if you want to pvp you go to a designated area which is reserved to pvp. (on normal servers) if you want this gear you go to x dungeon and hope to get the drop you want.

The part about WAR was an addition to my reply - the rest of which you edited out. Thanks for misquoting me. YOU brought up other MMORPGs and as such, I responded with an example. So don't go lecturing me about why comparisons to them don't apply here. I only mentioned WAR because you asked to hear about another MMORPG's endgame.

The bottom line is that you can't step into EVE and pvp - and to me, that is an unfortunate part of the design of their game.

You still have the time to learn the game regardless if you go into battle with lvl5 in WAR or if you go tackling with you 2w old character in EVE.

In War you wont be able to fight the older character that is lvl 15, lvl35 and so. In EVE you can help to get that player down, and be contributing.

If you have a scale where the mobs difficulty matches the leveling, and you have arenas that also matches the levels in that game, you have the same in this game. But godforbid, don't go canflipping in highsec as you ruin the day for new players. You could though look up and join some corporations that can use a lowSP tackler and beat the veterans in lowsec.

Oh noes... tackling is superbooring, running lowlevel arenas is much more fun. Ok I don't intend to level any further in that game so why should I have to do it in this game.

some of you guys have some very funny ideas about what 0.0 is like. you can rat in 0,0 in a vexor with ease, and 25-50 people is not a "small gang" hell, for my alliance thats a blob. a small gang is 2-7ish people.

if you dont think that you can compete with others in nullsec unless you are in a tech 2 ship, then stick to losec, join a faction militia... thats what faction warfare is for, to be the first steps into pvp. get that tech 2 ship (i recommend assault ships) and come into nullsec. realise that its not the ship you fly, its how well you fly it.

we just recruited a new player, hes moved out to 0,0 and while we have to critsise his fits a bit, hes shaping up to be a real team player and an asset

Originally posted by Orphes

You still have the time to learn the game regardless if you go into battle with lvl5 in WAR or if you go tackling with you 2w old character in EVE.

In War you wont be able to fight the older character that is lvl 15, lvl35 and so. In EVE you can help to get that player down, and be contributing.

If you have a scale where the mobs difficulty matches the leveling, and you have arenas that also matches the levels in that game, you have the same in this game. But godforbid, don't go canflipping in highsec as you ruin the day for new players. You could though look up and join some corporations that can use a lowSP tackler and beat the veterans in lowsec.

Oh noes... tackling is superbooring, running lowlevel arenas is much more fun. Ok I don't intend to level any further in that game so why should I have to do it in this game.

To start, a lvl 5 in WAR takes about 30 minutes to get - don't compare it to a 2 week old EVE character. Secondly, in WAR, you have the option of fighting people of your same level. I'm not defending its scenarios, which I get quickly bored of running - but that is NOT the topic of this discussion. In EVE, you simply do not have the ability to survive in pvp from the start unless you joined a corporation of vets who for some reason let you in - that is the major problem. It is like a level 5 going out and fighting a lvl 40 - zero chance. The vast majority of people in low sec or 0.0 will have 4m SP or more, and that would simply decimate someone with 1m SP. That being said, it does begin to even out, and someone with 5m SP can make a big contribution and, depending on fit, and can a decent chance against someone with 20m SP. And of course it becomes more even if it was 10m vs 30m. Your post brings nothing new to the discussion.

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

and in any other MMORPG how long would it take you to reach the "gates of hell" (arbitrary name) end game?

treat the 0.0 space as hostile space that you should not go untill you actually have some experience playing the game. im sure you would not take a lvl 10 character to an end game dungeon would you?

And anyway, taking WAR, for example, it takes about a month, give or take, for the average gamer to hit lvl 40 and acquire a decent amount of gear to get to the "end game" of t4 zone control, fortress sieges, and ultimately city sieges. But pvp shouldn't be "end game" content in EVE and as such it  shouldn't take 2 months to train up enough skills such that you stand somewhat of a chance out there.

well games like WAR or WoW or EQ2 or AoC are games that are meant for the general masses where everything needed to play the game decently (not the greatest items but enough to be average) is handed to you on a silver platter with very minimal effort. now EVE is not like that, you need to be logical and you have to think a bit on how you are going to proceed. there is no marked path that you take in order to do X thing. you have to figure it out and plan it out. so if you want to pvp, you have to

a) work for your ship and equipment (being missions or trading or mining)

b) think of the skills you need and their pre-requisits (heh reminds me of my choosing classes for university)

c) find yourself a corp that fits your chosen game style (pirating, mercenary, anti-pirate industrial trading etc...)

 

on a normal MMORPG such as WoW or WAR you start at lvl 1 and next step is level 2 and then level 3 and so on. and enemies get harder the further you go from the town. if you want to pvp you go to a designated area which is reserved to pvp. (on normal servers) if you want this gear you go to x dungeon and hope to get the drop you want.

The part about WAR was an addition to my reply - the rest of which you edited out. Thanks for misquoting me. YOU brought up other MMORPGs and as such, I responded with an example. So don't go lecturing me about why comparisons to them don't apply here. I only mentioned WAR because you asked to hear about another MMORPG's endgame.

The bottom line is that you can't step into EVE and pvp - and to me, that is an unfortunate part of the design of their game.

the other 2 paragraphs had nothing to do with the topic of another MMO, sry should have writtien [snip] and [snip]

and you are wrong when saying that you cant pvp when you step into EVE(takes about 3-7 days to train the skills to support others). you just can't pvp ALONE or for that matter treat ANY PART OF EVE ONLINE as SOLO content. exept mining in very high sec... and even then...

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Orphes

You still have the time to learn the game regardless if you go into battle with lvl5 in WAR or if you go tackling with you 2w old character in EVE.

In War you wont be able to fight the older character that is lvl 15, lvl35 and so. In EVE you can help to get that player down, and be contributing.

If you have a scale where the mobs difficulty matches the leveling, and you have arenas that also matches the levels in that game, you have the same in this game. But godforbid, don't go canflipping in highsec as you ruin the day for new players. You could though look up and join some corporations that can use a lowSP tackler and beat the veterans in lowsec.

Oh noes... tackling is superbooring, running lowlevel arenas is much more fun. Ok I don't intend to level any further in that game so why should I have to do it in this game.

To start, a lvl 5 in WAR takes about 30 minutes to get - don't compare it to a 2 week old EVE character. Secondly, in WAR, you have the option of fighting people of your same level. I'm not defending its scenarios, which I get quickly bored of running - but that is NOT the topic of this discussion. In EVE, you simply do not have the ability to survive in pvp from the start unless you joined a corporation of vets who for some reason let you in - that is the major problem. It is like a level 5 going out and fighting a lvl 40 - zero chance. The vast majority of people in low sec or 0.0 will have 4m SP or more, and that would simply decimate someone with 1m SP. That being said, it does begin to even out, and someone with 5m SP can make a big contribution and, depending on fit, and can a decent chance against someone with 20m SP. And of course it becomes more even if it was 10m vs 30m. Your post brings nothing new to the discussion.

what good is it if someone has 5 million in missiles 5 mil in navigation and 5 mil in mining 5 mil in refining. against someone who has 7 mil in hybrids 8 mil in navigation? (in my view both are at equal chance.

it all comes down to specialization since there is only so much someone can train missiles... or any skills for that matter.

Originally posted by Xennith

some of you guys have some very funny ideas about what 0.0 is like. you can rat in 0,0 in a vexor with ease, and 25-50 people is not a "small gang" hell, for my alliance thats a blob. a small gang is 2-7ish people.

if you dont think that you can compete with others in nullsec unless you are in a tech 2 ship, then stick to losec, join a faction militia... thats what faction warfare is for, to be the first steps into pvp. get that tech 2 ship (i recommend assault ships) and come into nullsec. realise that its not the ship you fly, its how well you fly it.

 

we just recruited a new player, hes moved out to 0,0 and while we have to critsise his fits a bit, hes shaping up to be a real team player and an asset

I doubt a newish character can solo rat in 0.0 with a vexor. At least it wasn't possible when I played, and was much easier to use a battlecruiser even if you weren't optimally trained. I agree with your comment about gangs - I don't know what that other guy was talking about, but most of the small gangs I would participate in daily had 2-7 people.

I don't think you need a t2 ship to join a 0.0 corp. That being said, I do think you need a decent amount of sp to be able to fly a ship, most likely a cruiser or battlecruiser, and contribute to a gang.

I guess faction warfare is a relatively new thing? I looked it up and found an article (www.massively.com/2008/06/16/eve-evolved-faction-warfare-unleashed/) that says "The big promise of faction warfare was that it would make PvP accessible to every player." It sounds like it was released in June of this year with the Empyrean Age patch. Obviously I haven't played EVE since then, but that sounds like it could be exactly what the game needed to allow newer players to get into pvp without waiting so long to train skills. Thanks for bringing up something useful.

Also, it's good to know that some corporations are willing to take a chance on newer players. You have to hope that an intelligent person can learn quickly and become an asset to the corp.

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Orphes

You still have the time to learn the game regardless if you go into battle with lvl5 in WAR or if you go tackling with you 2w old character in EVE.

In War you wont be able to fight the older character that is lvl 15, lvl35 and so. In EVE you can help to get that player down, and be contributing.

If you have a scale where the mobs difficulty matches the leveling, and you have arenas that also matches the levels in that game, you have the same in this game. But godforbid, don't go canflipping in highsec as you ruin the day for new players. You could though look up and join some corporations that can use a lowSP tackler and beat the veterans in lowsec.

Oh noes... tackling is superbooring, running lowlevel arenas is much more fun. Ok I don't intend to level any further in that game so why should I have to do it in this game.

To start, a lvl 5 in WAR takes about 30 minutes to get - don't compare it to a 2 week old EVE character. Secondly, in WAR, you have the option of fighting people of your same level. I'm not defending its scenarios, which I get quickly bored of running - but that is NOT the topic of this discussion. In EVE, you simply do not have the ability to survive in pvp from the start unless you joined a corporation of vets who for some reason let you in - that is the major problem. It is like a level 5 going out and fighting a lvl 40 - zero chance. The vast majority of people in low sec or 0.0 will have 4m SP or more, and that would simply decimate someone with 1m SP. That being said, it does begin to even out, and someone with 5m SP can make a big contribution and, depending on fit, and can a decent chance against someone with 20m SP. And of course it becomes more even if it was 10m vs 30m. Your post brings nothing new to the discussion.

what good is it if someone has 5 million in missiles 5 mil in navigation and 5 mil in mining 5 mil in refining. against someone who has 7 mil in hybrids 8 mil in navigation? (in my view both are at equal chance.

it all comes down to specialization since there is only so much someone can train missiles... or any skills for that matter.

If you read my post, that was my entire point. It does begin to even out once you to 5 or 10m SP as you can only train so much in a given area and then you will have to continue training in other areas that are not useful to your current pvp fit.

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Squal'Zell

and in any other MMORPG how long would it take you to reach the "gates of hell" (arbitrary name) end game?

treat the 0.0 space as hostile space that you should not go untill you actually have some experience playing the game. im sure you would not take a lvl 10 character to an end game dungeon would you?

And anyway, taking WAR, for example, it takes about a month, give or take, for the average gamer to hit lvl 40 and acquire a decent amount of gear to get to the "end game" of t4 zone control, fortress sieges, and ultimately city sieges. But pvp shouldn't be "end game" content in EVE and as such it  shouldn't take 2 months to train up enough skills such that you stand somewhat of a chance out there.

well games like WAR or WoW or EQ2 or AoC are games that are meant for the general masses where everything needed to play the game decently (not the greatest items but enough to be average) is handed to you on a silver platter with very minimal effort. now EVE is not like that, you need to be logical and you have to think a bit on how you are going to proceed. there is no marked path that you take in order to do X thing. you have to figure it out and plan it out. so if you want to pvp, you have to

a) work for your ship and equipment (being missions or trading or mining)

b) think of the skills you need and their pre-requisits (heh reminds me of my choosing classes for university)

c) find yourself a corp that fits your chosen game style (pirating, mercenary, anti-pirate industrial trading etc...)

 

on a normal MMORPG such as WoW or WAR you start at lvl 1 and next step is level 2 and then level 3 and so on. and enemies get harder the further you go from the town. if you want to pvp you go to a designated area which is reserved to pvp. (on normal servers) if you want this gear you go to x dungeon and hope to get the drop you want.

The part about WAR was an addition to my reply - the rest of which you edited out. Thanks for misquoting me. YOU brought up other MMORPGs and as such, I responded with an example. So don't go lecturing me about why comparisons to them don't apply here. I only mentioned WAR because you asked to hear about another MMORPG's endgame.

The bottom line is that you can't step into EVE and pvp - and to me, that is an unfortunate part of the design of their game.

the other 2 paragraphs had nothing to do with the topic of another MMO, sry should have writtien [snip] and [snip]

and you are wrong when saying that you cant pvp when you step into EVE(takes about 3-7 days to train the skills to support others). you just can't pvp ALONE or for that matter treat ANY PART OF EVE ONLINE as SOLO content. exept mining in very high sec... and even then...

3 to 7 days? I'd have to disagree unless there have been changes since I played. All of this is moot though if the "faction warfare" they added has given people an avenue to pvp from the get go.

I am a hardcore player and that's what always somewhat pushed me away from EVE...plus I was an EnB player, and 6-7 years ago when EVE first came out, we were the rivals, EnB was my first love for MMO's (especially space ones), I was never able to do the transition from EnB to EVE, probably because they were such different games, and I was upset that EnB was gone.

However after that I started on L2, where it (and EVE is also considered) to be one of the most hardcore PvP games out there, just in the sense that you have real accomplishments and losses for PvP, especially in clan/corporation based PvP. I was then drawn to that about EVE...but at the same time having a skill system that levels up over a static amount of time, to me meant that everyone who had a character before mine, would always be ahead no matter what, no matter how good I was, or how much effort I put into it...yes being a better player might give me the ability to beat someone ahead of me, but nevertheless, I would always have that handicap.

and these arguments about WoW taking time are invalid...once you reach end game in WoW, your progression slows by a large margin, which allows people to get close, and come the release of a new teir/season or expansion, everyone is back to square one, they will all need to start from scratch to get the new teirs, reputation, honor (it is reset often), etc...

a prime example would be my clan started on WoW about 6 weeks ago, by the time WotLK was released we were lvl 60-70, we grinded up to 80, started raiding, honor was reset, new factions were added, and we were at square one with EVERYONE else, no matter if they had been playing for a month or for 4 years on that character...so even though I don't like WoW, thats what made starting from scratch appealing to me.

Bottom line:

• No, it's never 'too late' to start EVE.
• Yes, there will be players more advanced than you.
• No, you don't have to have as many SP or ISK as them to beat them in PVP.
• No, you will never catch up in total SP unless they stop training.
• It doesn't matter.
• If you play for more than 1 year you will have more SP than 50% of the players in the game. (playerbase roughly doubles every year).
• You do not have to have as many SP as someone to be able to fight them.
• It will take you approximately 2-3 months to become truly effective in PVP. Before that you can be effective as a tackler or low end EWAR pilot.
• The hardest part of EVE is making the money to afford good PVP ships.
• Joining a GOOD corp can make all the difference in the world in EVE.

In short:
You can start EVE today and have just as much fun as someone who has been playing since Day 1. The question is:
Do you have the patience, drive and ambition to excel in a very competitive world?

Originally posted by skankyrart

I doubt a newish character can solo rat in 0.0 with a vexor. At least it wasn't possible when I played, and was much easier to use a battlecruiser even if you weren't optimally trained. I agree with your comment about gangs - I don't know what that other guy was talking about, but most of the small gangs I would participate in daily had 2-7 people.

I don't think you need a t2 ship to join a 0.0 corp. That being said, I do think you need a decent amount of sp to be able to fly a ship, most likely a cruiser or battlecruiser, and contribute to a gang.

I guess faction warfare is a relatively new thing? I looked it up and found an article (www.massively.com/2008/06/16/eve-evolved-faction-warfare-unleashed/) that says "The big promise of faction warfare was that it would make PvP accessible to every player." It sounds like it was released in June of this year with the Empyrean Age patch. Obviously I haven't played EVE since then, but that sounds like it could be exactly what the game needed to allow newer players to get into pvp without waiting so long to train skills. Thanks for bringing up something useful.

Also, it's good to know that some corporations are willing to take a chance on newer players. You have to hope that an intelligent person can learn quickly and become an asset to the corp.

Could have been because I was always in a major 0.0 war when I was out there. Now my current low sec outings are mostly 5-15 people, but when I was in 0.0 it was rarely  less then 15 members  and more likely 25+ members in the gangs.  I'd have to say I  wouldn't want to try a vexor with a low skillpoint character because you'd have a damn hard time breaking any of the good NPCs tanks, not saying it couldn't be done but it would be rough as hell compared to a brutix or mrym doing the same thing.

we have just opened up a small corp, 7 people so far, all noobies who are just learning the game. So far we are having a blast and opened up 2 offices, one in caldari space and one in amarr space. We thought it would be too late as well to catch up. But honestly, the game is so open that it never is too late. Some of us specialize in mining, some in invention, and for the most part we are running missions together (Level 2) to get used to group play and dynamics.

Find some like minded friends and hook up with some noobies, and honestly the game is a ton of fun. Eventually pvp and 0.0 space is a goal, but right now, fun is primary. A good corp makes a huge difference....and if you are just looking for some advice....look me up in game IGN: Miagi Sans.

Originally posted by Nicoli

Originally posted by skankyrart

Originally posted by Nicoli

  Generally with about a month of skill training before wasting time on learnings you can get all of the skills to the point where you can survive and live in 0.0. 

I definitely agree that knowing the basic mechanics and strategies of pvp is an absolute must, and that one can learn these somewhat in a noob corp in low sec. However, I completely disagree about your statement on 0.0 fleet combat. In my time playing the game, the largest fleet battle I participated in was the most fun and exciting time I have experienced in an MMO since I first played EQ long ago.

I do not quite believe your statement in red. Another person in thread said 4-6 months, and I said about 1.5 to 3 months. Obviously it is very subjective, as it depends on what role you are trying to fill and how much training you think is adequate. I know when I started 0.0 pvp I played in a cheaply outfitted cruiser as I expected to die. I guess I don't quite remember how long it takes to train the learning skills (3 weeks? at least to get a good amount of them), but I really would not advise training anything before them as you are being incredibly inefficient and are going to slow yourself down from getting to the point where you would be well skilled for pvp.

Again, all of this only applies if he is interested in pvp in EVE. If you want to do missions, mine, manufacture, or trade then you can start immediately (although I would still suggest tossing learning skills in if you think you will play the game for anything longer than 2 months) and will slowly develop an increased repertoire of skills.

 

1 month is about all you need any more to fit a Tier 2 battlecruiser that can kill of most 0.0 spawns for isk as well as be a viable ship for most ops. Sure you can waste 3 weeks with learning skills before that and it takes about 1.5 to 2 months then, as during that critical time period your advancing your characters ability absolutely none.... Does absolutely no good for a new player... everyone is soo damn conscerned about how much time they'll save over the 20+ years to max out thier character that they miss the fact that most people who pound out the learning skills during month one hate the game. To prove the point I took one of my alts with 950k skillpoints, a little bit more then what you start with I believe and ran him up to fly a harbringer that would be at least able to do 0.0 ratting in most case. is he great at it hell no but he'll survive. He also has the base skills to work well in small gang warfare as well as fit a decient cheap disposable ship for fleets. With no additional learning skills

[b]Skill plan for Dark testman[/b]

1. [b]Amarr Cruiser I[/b] (1 hour, 44 minutes, 10 seconds)
2. [b]Amarr Cruiser II[/b] (8 hours, 5 minutes, 10 seconds)
3. [b]Amarr Cruiser III[/b] (1 day, 21 hours, 44 minutes)
4. [b]Battlecruisers I[/b] (2 hours, 5 minutes)
5. [b]Battlecruisers II[/b] (9 hours, 42 minutes, 10 seconds)
6. [b]Medium Energy Turret I[/b] (1 hour, 2 minutes, 30 seconds)
7. [b]Repair Systems I[/b] (20 minutes)
8. [b]Repair Systems II[/b] (1 hour, 33 minutes, 12 seconds)
9. [b]Repair Systems III[/b] (8 hours, 46 minutes, 48 seconds)
10. [b]Repair Systems IV[/b] (2 days, 1 hour, 40 minutes, 24 seconds)
11. [b]Hull Upgrades I[/b] (40 minutes)
12. [b]Hull Upgrades II[/b] (3 hours, 6 minutes, 19 seconds)
13. [b]Hull Upgrades III[/b] (17 hours, 33 minutes, 40 seconds)
14. [b]Hull Upgrades IV[/b] (4 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes, 48 seconds)
15. [b]Science I[/b] (20 minutes)
16. [b]Energy Grid Upgrades I[/b] (40 minutes)
17. [b]Energy Grid Upgrades II[/b] (3 hours, 6 minutes, 19 seconds)
18. [b]Energy Grid Upgrades III[/b] (17 hours, 33 minutes, 40 seconds)
19. [b]Energy Grid Upgrades IV[/b] (4 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes, 48 seconds)
20. [b]Weapon Upgrades II[/b] (3 hours, 6 minutes, 19 seconds)
21. [b]Weapon Upgrades III[/b] (17 hours, 33 minutes, 40 seconds)
22. [b]Weapon Upgrades IV[/b] (4 days, 3 hours, 20 minutes, 48 seconds)
23. [b]Navigation I[/b] (23 minutes, 48 seconds)
24. [b]Navigation II[/b] (1 hour, 50 minutes, 57 seconds)
25. [b]Propulsion Jamming I[/b] (1 hour)
26. [b]Propulsion Jamming II[/b] (4 hours, 39 minutes, 26 seconds)
27. [b]Weapon Disruption I[/b] (1 hour)
28. [b]Electronic Warfare I[/b] (40 minutes)
29. [b]Sensor Linking I[/b] (1 hour)
30. [b]Drones I[/b] (17 minutes, 14 seconds)
31. [b]Scout Drone Operation I[/b] (17 minutes, 14 seconds)
32. [b]Energy Management I[/b] (1 hour)
33. [b]Energy Management II[/b] (4 hours, 39 minutes, 26 seconds)
34. [b]Energy Management III[/b] (1 day, 2 hours, 20 minutes, 33 seconds)
35. [b]Energy Management IV[/b] (6 days, 5 hours, 1 minute, 12 seconds)
36. [b]Battlecruisers III[/b] (2 days, 6 hours, 52 minutes, 50 seconds)

all total approximately one month 30days 17hours and some change

Now adding learnings....

Skill plan for Dark testman

1. Instant Recall I (17 minutes, 14 seconds)
2. Analytical Mind I (16 minutes, 7 seconds)
3. Learning I (15 minutes, 37 seconds)
4. Instant Recall II (1 hour, 11 minutes, 23 seconds)
5. Analytical Mind II (1 hour, 7 minutes, 11 seconds)
6. Learning II (1 hour, 5 minutes, 15 seconds)
7. Instant Recall III (6 hours, 1 minute, 48 seconds)
8. Analytical Mind III (5 hours, 42 minutes, 15 seconds)
9. Learning III (5 hours, 33 minutes, 14 seconds)
10. Instant Recall IV (1 day, 6 hours, 49 minutes, 48 seconds)
11. Eidetic Memory I (35 minutes, 22 seconds)
12. Eidetic Memory II (2 hours, 36 minutes, 55 seconds)
13. Eidetic Memory III (14 hours, 7 minutes, 12 seconds)
14. Analytical Mind IV (1 day, 1 hour, 28 minutes, 5 seconds)
15. Logic I (35 minutes, 22 seconds)
16. Logic II (2 hours, 36 minutes, 55 seconds)
17. Logic III (14 hours, 7 minutes, 12 seconds)
18. Eidetic Memory IV (2 days, 22 hours, 17 minutes, 32 seconds)
19. Logic IV (3 days, 2 hours, 46 minutes, 45 seconds)
20. Spatial Awareness I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
21. Iron Will I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
22. Empathy I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
23. Spatial Awareness II (41 minutes, 28 seconds)
24. Iron Will II (41 minutes, 28 seconds)
25. Empathy II (41 minutes, 28 seconds)
26. Spatial Awareness III (3 hours, 54 minutes, 25 seconds)
27. Iron Will III (3 hours, 54 minutes, 25 seconds)
28. Spatial Awareness IV (22 hours, 6 minutes, 16 seconds)
29. Iron Will IV (22 hours, 6 minutes, 16 seconds)
30. Focus I (41 minutes, 37 seconds)
31. Clarity I (38 minutes, 14 seconds)
32. Focus II (3 hours, 3 minutes, 4 seconds)
33. Clarity II (2 hours, 44 minutes, 45 seconds)
34. Focus III (16 hours, 20 minutes, 58 seconds)
35. Clarity III (14 hours, 26 minutes, 54 seconds)
36. Focus IV (3 days, 15 hours, 51 minutes, 56 seconds)
37. Clarity IV (3 days, 4 hours, 24 minutes, 17 seconds)
38. Drones I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
39. Scout Drone Operation I (8 minutes, 53 seconds)
40. Repair Systems I (9 minutes, 37 seconds)
41. Science I (9 minutes, 37 seconds)
42. Navigation I (10 minutes, 28 seconds)
43. Hull Upgrades I (19 minutes, 15 seconds)
44. Energy Grid Upgrades I (19 minutes, 15 seconds)
45. Electronic Warfare I (19 minutes, 15 seconds)
46. Weapon Disruption I (28 minutes, 52 seconds)
47. Sensor Linking I (28 minutes, 52 seconds)
48. Energy Management I (28 minutes, 52 seconds)
49. Medium Energy Turret I (29 minutes, 28 seconds)
50. Repair Systems II (44 minutes, 51 seconds)
51. Amarr Cruiser I (49 minutes, 8 seconds)
52. Navigation II (48 minutes, 50 seconds)
53. Propulsion Jamming I (28 minutes, 52 seconds)
54. Battlecruisers I (58 minutes, 57 seconds)
55. Hull Upgrades II (1 hour, 29 minutes, 40 seconds)
56. Energy Grid Upgrades II (1 hour, 29 minutes, 40 seconds)
57. Weapon Upgrades II (1 hour, 29 minutes, 40 seconds)
58. Propulsion Jamming II (2 hours, 14 minutes, 30 seconds)
59. Energy Management II (2 hours, 14 minutes, 30 seconds)
60. Amarr Cruiser II (3 hours, 48 minutes, 51 seconds)
61. Repair Systems III (4 hours, 13 minutes, 33 seconds)
62. Battlecruisers II (4 hours, 34 minutes, 36 seconds)
63. Hull Upgrades III (8 hours, 27 minutes, 9 seconds)
64. Energy Grid Upgrades III (8 hours, 27 minutes, 9 seconds)
65. Weapon Upgrades III (8 hours, 27 minutes, 9 seconds)
66. Energy Management III (12 hours, 40 minutes, 45 seconds)
67. Amarr Cruiser III (21 hours, 34 minutes, 20 seconds)
68. Repair Systems IV (23 hours, 54 minutes, 32 seconds)
69. Battlecruisers III (1 day, 1 hour, 53 minutes, 13 seconds)
70. Hull Upgrades IV (1 day, 23 hours, 49 minutes, 4 seconds)
71. Energy Grid Upgrades IV (1 day, 23 hours, 49 minutes, 4 seconds)
72. Weapon Upgrades IV (1 day, 23 hours, 49 minutes, 4 seconds)
73. Energy Management IV (2 days, 23 hours, 43 minutes, 37 seconds)

Total time: 36 days, 3 hours, 58 minutes, 4 seconds

its 6 days longer and its almost 20 days till you see any improvement to your characters ability

you can push the learnings off till the second and third month or better yet just selectively do the learning skills that you need. The first one then drops to about 20 days if you only use the applicable learning skills for it which frees up some time to get some of the skills up to lvl 4 people waste a lot of early game time trying to save time in the long run, get fed up with not being able to do anything and quit never getting the use out of what they wasted the time on to begin with. I'd love for the learning skills to not even show up for new players till after thier first month.

AS for 0.0 fleet pvp I don't know how you found fleet pvp interesting.considering it was mostly just waiting for you to lock, waiting for your modules to activate switch to new target. Now you may be refering to much smaller engagements with about 25-50 people per side which is generally a mid sized to small gang engagement in eve terms.

This man is right and i agree with him atleast the first trial and month do not worry about the learning as hard as most vets say to do it, Its nice once you get to the rank 6 skills and up but in the start it saves you not much time at all, Its nice to have most at level 3-4 but anyways, try to have fun and learn the game.
 

The amount of skillpoints you need to be effective in Eve is the amount you have when you realize that SPs are a part of a much bigger picture, gaining more SPs stops being effective in any given area fairly quickly, and other factors will eventually end up contributing much, much more to your overall 'effectiveness'

For me this was at about the 3M mark, when I killed a canflipper because I baited him, then engaged him with a vastly superior ship despite the fact I was only a couple months old at that point.

Like many of the concepts in Eve, the idea that anything on your character sheet is more important than the brain in the head of the person behind the keyboard is so far outside the mainstream that most people have a really hard time getting their heads around it, particularly if they have previous MMO experience.

Originally posted by Taram

Bottom line:

 

• No, it's never 'too late' to start EVE.
• Yes, there will be players more advanced than you.
• No, you don't have to have as many SP or ISK as them to beat them in PVP.
• No, you will never catch up in total SP unless they stop training.
• It doesn't matter.
• If you play for more than 1 year you will have more SP than 50% of the players in the game. (playerbase roughly doubles every year).
• You do not have to have as many SP as someone to be able to fight them.
• It will take you approximately 2-3 months to become truly effective in PVP. Before that you can be effective as a tackler or low end EWAR pilot.
• The hardest part of EVE is making the money to afford good PVP ships.
• Joining a GOOD corp can make all the difference in the world in EVE.

 

In short:
You can start EVE today and have just as much fun as someone who has been playing since Day 1. The question is:
Do you have the patience, drive and ambition to excel in a very competitive world?

QFT

wow, this pretty much summarizes it perfectly. very good post,

/me tips his hat

im just gonna highlight in green some of the most important points that says it all