OwnYourGame is an ISK seller and often you will find their spam in the local channels in game. Now a danish ISK buyer has taken his purchase to court as he claims that he did not recieve his ISK.

Through PayPal he had purchased ISK for the value of 100.000 DKK or approx 13.500 Euro over a period of 3 months. This is a huge sum of money and speak volumes of what people invest in this game. That aside spending money over a 3 month period and not getting the ISK should have warned him the first time he did nto get the ISK, or as I believe the case is, he did indeed get the ISK but CCP has promtly taken it away from him.

“Der var tale om manglende levering af varer i form af virtuelle ydelser, som køberen havde betalt og bestilt hos spilfirmaet OwnYourGame til levering i internetspillet EVEonline. Betalingen var foregået ved brug af køberens VISA/Dankort gennem PayPal, der er udbyder af og formidler betalinger med elektroniske penge. De virtuelle ydelser, som havde en samlet værdi af ca.100.000 kr., var købt over en periode på ca. 3 måneder ad flere omgange.”

The ruling is that the banks are NOT responsible for purchaes done through PayPal to a third party.

This brings forth a number of points one of which is that using PayPal is not a guaranteed transaction under danish law which makes perfectly sence, but which should warn all users of PayPal that you should be ready to part with whatever money you use in PayPal related transactions.

What is even more important, from a gaming perspective, is that if you buy ISK you will risk loosing your money. This must not come as a surprise. ISK buyers buy electronic items of a company that deliberate break the EULA of another company and expect these companies to act honestly ?

The conclusion must be: DONT BUY ISK !!!

http://wotlankor.com/?p=190

traduced in english

Eastern Regional Court has today handed down a ruling in principle on the use of a VISA / card to prepay for a service bought over the Internet. The case concerns whether such a payment made by electronic funds transfer via the Internet company PayPal can be reclaimed by the card holder to the issuer, because it bought the service is not delivered. Consumer Ombudsman has in its guidelines, 16 December 1996 concerning distance, etc. in payment by debit card provides that the bank should make a refund in such situations - so-called charge-back, but Eastern High came to the Consumer Ombudsman's guidelines did not apply in that situation.

There was talk about non-delivery of goods in the form of virtual services that the buyer had paid and booked with game company OwnYourGame for delivery of Internet game EVEonline. The payment was done using the buyer's VISA / card through PayPal, a provider and facilitator of payments with electronic money. The virtual services, which had a total value of ca.100.000 kroner, was bought over a period of approximately. 3 months in several steps. Since there after several reminders still not happened delivery, the buyer looking to the Nordea Bank Denmark A / S ( "Nordea"), which was issued by his VISA / Credit, with the request that Nordea, the charge back in line with the Consumer Ombudsman's guidelines.

Nordea announced that payment for the virtual services were made through PayPal, and that therefore the payment was made with electronic money and not with a debit card. In our view, the Consumer Ombudsman's guidelines therefore not apply.

The buyer then filed a complaint with Pengeinstitutankenævnet that in a majority decision required the bank to pay the money back. Nordea does not want to be bound by Pengeinstitutankenævnet decision, and Consumer introduced the matter for Copenhagen Byret, which referred the case to the Eastern Regional. During the High Court treatment occurred Consumer Ombudsman as biintervenient in support of the buyer, while PBS International A / S occurred as biintervenient in support of Nordea, which was represented by Finance Council.

It was during the proceedings including indicated that VISA had reached agreement with PayPal on receipt of VISA payments, but not to disseminate VISA payments. It was also reported that VISA had not reached agreement with gaming company on receipt of VISA payments, and the game company's website does not contain a VISA logo. The buyer could therefore only pay for the virtual services with its VISA / card if he paid through PayPal.

Appeal Court gave Nordea is successful in that the law as opposed to Pengeinstitutankenævnet majority found that the Consumer Ombudsman's guidelines do not apply in the case. Nordea was therefore not following these guidelines required to make charge back.

Land Court's decision in this case is justified as follows:

Consumer Ombudsman's guidelines on remote sales, etc. in payment by debit card, 16 December 1996 issued under the law were in force on debit Section 12a, paragraph. 2 (now tender section 4, paragraph. 3) and were in force, marketing Law 17 (now Marketing Act, Section 24).

The wording of the Consumer Ombudsman's guidelines section. 1, that they apply in payment by debit card. It is also assumed that there will be an update of the guidelines before they can apply to electronic payment without credit cards. Since such an update has not been made, it must be asserted that the guidelines apply only to payments made in payment by debit card.

Neither the Consumer Ombudsman's guidelines or text or comments to the Law on payment cards, has further defined the concept of "payment by debit card."

Court finds, however, that a natural understanding of the concept leads to a payment only to the parties, in addition to card issuer has entered into an agreement with him to give, receive or convey a payment using a debit card.

The defense disputed that the card issuer, VISA, has not concluded a indløsningsaftale with OwnYourGame and OwnYourGame therefore not eligible to receive payments made with a VISA card. It is also reported that VISA and PayPal has signed a indløsningsaftale, but not a mediation agreement, and that PayPal therefore only be eligible to receive payments made with a VISA card. Under those circumstances, the High Court that Consumer Ombudsman's guidelines, which was developed following consultations with the parties concerned, can not be extended in relation to a payee, are not covered by that payment.

It noted that the [NAME] with his VISA card is purchased and delivered e-money by PayPal. The fact that PayPal in agreement with [NAME] has used the purchase e-money to pay benefits to which he has purchased from OwnYourGame, visa system is irrelevant. The fact that there is a temporal correlation between [NAME] purchase of e-money and their use for payment for services by OwnYourGame may not lead to a different result.

As a result, the Court of the Fiscal Council, acting on behalf of Nordea Bank Denmark A / S disused unfounded claim.

danish link

http://www.domstol.dk/oestrelandsret/nyheder/Pressemeddelelser/Pages/Pressemeddelelse(Betalingmedelektroniskepengeviabetalingskort.aspx

Serves the moron right. Stupidity should never be rewarded.

Damn, hopefully that moron had a high disposable income.. spending 13.5k euros on video game money?  He has a serious problem, unless he's wealthy and stupid.  Spending that ammount of money for an extra edge in an online world is rediculous.. even if I was a friggen multi-millionare/billionare, I would never spend that amount on a video game.. Actually, I wouldn't spend anything other then the box cost + subscription.. Hopefully there isn't a family in Norway that will go hungry because this guy was a complete idiot..  Yeesh, the stupidity of the human race doesn't suprise me that often, but in this case.. 13.5K? For pretend money? Really!?!? I wonder how much the banker got when he was playing monopaly?

 Sigh ... they never learn ,u can earn isk by paying with cash (tho it's more expensive) legaly with GTC trade ... but no chose the easy way and then get pwned ingame and in RL.

Damn man, lol, I am a hobbyist mmo'er, yeah this dude is a moron, with that kind of free dough sitting around he coulda started his own corps and boxed so many mining toons he woulda been rich in not time with isk.

Wow.. That is a insane amount of money to use on a videogame :O

But very nice read, and sad that he cant really get his money back due to the circumstances.. Thats kinda broken IMO.. The thing he did was wrong, but I wont buy anything over Paypal again, thats for sure..

D'oh!

Originally posted by demolishIX

 Sigh ... they never learn ,u can earn isk by paying with cash (tho it's more expensive) legaly with GTC trade ... but no chose the easy way and then get pwned ingame and in RL.

exactly. if i decided to do that, id go that route, its a win-win for both parties. i get a good amount of isk, and the other person gets couple free months for their hard work gathering the ISK. it blows my mind this due blew $13,500 euros on isk youd think common sense and logic would kick in, after the few hundred dollars that it wasnt going right lol. i have no sympathy for stupdity.

Originally posted by nakuma

Originally posted by demolishIX

 Sigh ... they never learn ,u can earn isk by paying with cash (tho it's more expensive) legaly with GTC trade ... but no chose the easy way and then get pwned ingame and in RL.

 

exactly. if i decided to do that, id go that route, its a win-win for both parties. i get a good amount of isk, and the other person gets couple free months for their hard work gathering the ISK. it blows my mind this due blew $13,500 euros on isk youd think common sense and logic would kick in, after the few hundred dollars that it wasnt going right lol. i have no sympathy for stupdity.

Yeah no kidding.

And 13500 euros...that's about how much i'd make as a teacher after I graduate.

What is the exchange rate on euros to dollars, I assumed it was between 2 and 2.5 but i'm not actually sure. Maybe I'm thinking of pounds.

Proving that being rich does not equal being smart.  With a company approved method to buy ISK, you can't feel the least bit sorry for someone who tried to circumvent the system.

think that about covers it

Originally posted by cosy

 

The buyer then filed a complaint with Pengeinstitutankenævnet that in a majority decision required the bank to pay the money back. Nordea does not want to be bound by Pengeinstitutankenævnet decision, and Consumer introduced the matter for Copenhagen Byret, which referred the case to the Eastern Regional. During the High Court treatment occurred Consumer Ombudsman as biintervenient in support of the buyer, while PBS International A / S occurred as biintervenient in support of Nordea, which was represented by Finance Council.

 

 

If I am reading that righ. It says that even if you are buying something that you seemingly are not getting, if you multiple times would pay for something and not getting the thing delivered. And you do that over and over again. Pengeinstitutet still thinks that the bank should repay the customer?

Originally posted by mrcalhou

Originally posted by nakuma

Originally posted by demolishIX

 Sigh ... they never learn ,u can earn isk by paying with cash (tho it's more expensive) legaly with GTC trade ... but no chose the easy way and then get pwned ingame and in RL.

 

exactly. if i decided to do that, id go that route, its a win-win for both parties. i get a good amount of isk, and the other person gets couple free months for their hard work gathering the ISK. it blows my mind this due blew $13,500 euros on isk youd think common sense and logic would kick in, after the few hundred dollars that it wasnt going right lol. i have no sympathy for stupdity.

 

Yeah no kidding.

And 13500 euros...that's about how much i'd make as a teacher after I graduate.

What is the exchange rate on euros to dollars, I assumed it was between 2 and 2.5 but i'm not actually sure. Maybe I'm thinking of pounds.

13 500 Euros

18 952.65 U.S. Dollars

23 020.98 Canadian Dollars

on december 25th 2008

btw on google search just type xxx USD in (conversion) or xxx (conversion) in USD and google does the change.

thats a ridiculous amount of money, thats like a

brand new car

brand new super computer

enough to start one's own business

can donate it to needy children

Support artists by buying their arts

i can think of so many things to do with 23k$

I find the ruling a bit weird, but perhaps it's the same in Sweden. But I thought PayPal had there own organisation to handle these situations (or perhaps it's through eBay). Anyway, anyone this stupid deserves to get screwed. Some people needs to be protected from themselves.

Originally posted by shieldfire

I find the ruling a bit weird, but perhaps it's the same in Sweden. But I thought PayPal had there own organisation to handle these situations (or perhaps it's through eBay). Anyway, anyone this stupid deserves to get screwed. Some people needs to be protected from themselves.

I use paypal here and there, mainly through projects for coworkers I do projects with (trusted individuals only mind you) but youd be surprised that there is a gray area in where fruad accountability and "reimbursement" is concerned, which is why he didnt recieve is money as paypal does not follow international banking laws and governed rules and regulations that are stuck to regular banking and credit card finances. trust me i use the term gray area very loosely. which is why you should always be careful when using paypal for such purposes as it inadventerantly protects those "entities" such as gold traders from full accountability and full onslaught from the legal system if they dont deliver. short version you pay through paypal for gold trading=be prepared to bend over and take it up the a$$ with no reach around.

Hm, interesting. Just out of curiosity I sent a question to the "Konsumentombudsman" (for private buyers) asking for their reasoning if such a case would turn up in Sweden (favourite diety forbid). If I get something interesting in return I'll post it here.

Cool!  I'm going to start my own paypal like business, so i can take people's money and not be held reliable when the items they pay for never come

It's almost as bad as buying station cash from SOE and when you do not recieve it then you're out of luck...they wouldn't do that...oh wait yes the do! (read the fine print when buying station cash, it's a scam lol)

That is an outrageous sum of money to spend on a game. 

A couple years back I saw Mediterranean Cruises, 30 days, for $3,000.  If I was gonna blow some money I would kick it on a cruise ship for 6 months or so, eating the food, catching some sun, exercising in their gym, and reading a novel here and there.  

I think it was PT Barnum who said "Every minute a sucker is born, and another three guys that try to get the suckers money".

Anyways if you buy stuff from people who are breaking the NDA you risk being robbed. And how you can use so much money to buy virtual stuff is a mystery to me, I get like 20K DKR a month myself, the dude must be both really rich and really stupid. And continue to buy more and more without getting anything is just sad.

You wouldn't have his E-mail, would you? I'm pretty sure a minister from Nigeria would mail him very soon or maybe someone from the Brittish national lottery.

Some people just do have more money than sense. I am just suprised that they didn't clean out his bank account at the same time.

A Fool and his money are soon parted.

Originally posted by Loke666

Anyways if you buy stuff from people who are breaking the NDA you risk being robbed. And how you can use so much money to buy virtual stuff is a mystery to me, I get like 20K DKR a month myself, the dude must be both really rich and really stupid. And continue to buy more and more without getting anything is just sad.

This.  I mean, c'mon - who calls the cops when they get ripped off in an illegal transaction?

As for trying to buy that much illegal ISK...  you could run a major alliance for quite a while on that much.  How can they *not* expect to get busted?  What on earth would they do with that much (in game) money anyway, other than failfiit a Titan and give us all something to laugh about on the official forums.  And then do it again.