Originally posted by Azrile

It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).

The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.

1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.

2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  

3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 

4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew

5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.

6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?

UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.

1.  New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 
4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.

There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.

If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game

i like pre-trammel uo.  in my first week of play, this one mob kept killing me.  every time i would venture past the brit graveyard, this glowing red mob would come rushing me and kill me.

i could travel anywhere else and i never saw this glowing red monster.   it was always lurking just beyond the brit gy.

then i found out, it was a murderer.  who did nothing but wait for noobs to venture past brit and would loot their noob gear.

i chuckled a lot.

Originally posted by Thomas2641

Originally posted by Azrile

It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).

The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.

1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.

2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  

3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 

4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew

5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.

6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?

UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.

1.  New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 
4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.

There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.

If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game

 

Can you document that postulate?? I have always been under the impression that UO did fine in the T2A era... And I was playing back then... (In fact I think you would have trouble proving it since they didn't show the server population numbers back then.. )

so why did they change uo from ffa pvp to carebear-land with insurance for all your items?

draw a line from point a to point b and logically explain the thinking instead of just throwing out "nuh huh".

Originally posted by Eyrothath

I am all for a PvP game, but there has to be certain restrictions. Player Killers, Ganking, Training, Ninja looting, MOB stealing, Griefing: these are all negative gaming terms and are originally from UO.

 We already know that UO had ganking and griefing but World of Warcraft does too, are you aware of that? You have the level 80's on the WoW PvP servers going around and killing lower levels, over and over again, and there is nothing they can do about it, that is what griefing is.. You get griefed in WoW just as much as UO back then, it sounds like Darkfall is going to find ways around this...

yes wow has ganking where you lose.... time running back to your body, or you just rez at the graveyard...

uo had ganking where you lost everything on your body and if you rez'd at your body you'd be repeatedly killed.

you can not logically, nor rationally, compare pvp in the two games.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by metalhead980 

It took me less then two minutes to get back to my body with no durability hit. I didnt need to buy new gear, I have virtually no downtime. I was like "Ok, so when you kill me I lose nothing? LOL!"

 

 

But you are losing something, your time. This is exactly the same thing that you lose in a ffa full loot game.

let's compare this loss of time, shall we?

you lose time in wow, which means, you run back to your body (a minute or two).

in uo, you'd lose time, as in you would have to create/buy all new equipment to replace the equipment which was lost.  which means you'd have to earn the loot, or dig up the resources, etc.

there is no comparison.  not rationally.  not logically.

Originally posted by rageagainst

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by Azrile

It's apparent that  part 6 of Noobs really clarifies how 'exactly' the ruleset of DF will be the same as UO was before Trammel.   Her comments about going rogue (grey in UO).

The fact is, that UO was dying pretty rapidly up until they announced Trammel.    Let me give you some reasons why players quit under this kind of system.

1.  Exploits -     Dying to players who exploit in other games is annoying.. dying to exploiters and losing all your stuff will make you completely stop playing until the exploit is fixed.   How fast do 'exploits' spread? Once someone learns it, they will pass it onto their guild and friends.  How fast do most games take to fix an exploit?  A few weeks to acknowledge it, another 2 weeks to fix it?  UO had a bunch of real exploits (spamming chat to get people to lag) and they also had 'tricks'.   Just like in UO.. players will learn how to get you to go rogue/grey so they can get you killed.  Honest players will just stop playing, everyone else will learn to use the exploit.

2. Lag/Crashes - Same as above.  If you have lag spikes at all, will you really play that day? In other games, death isn't that big of a deal, so you don't mind getting killed a few extra times because your connection is bad.  

3. Brit graveyard - To those that didn't play UO, I'll explain this :)  Brit graveyard was typically the first area where new players would 'wander' outside of town.  It was right outside of the biggest town, and it had easy monsters to kill.  Because of this, it was often the place where Murderers hung out.  In UO, new players were often essentially trapped in town.  Yes, if you knew people before you started playing, they could help you.. but you basically had to know them BEFORE you started playing.  Someone who just bought the box, logged in and started playing, probably spent their first month rarely getting out of town.  This is the exact reason UO introduced Trammel.   Players weren't renewing after their free month, and they were citing 'ganking' as the reason.   The same thing will happen in Darkfall.  Anti-social players will camp the area where new players first step into the 'world' and gank them. 

4. Don't come late to the party -  This kind of goes with #3.  But basically what happens is if you are a month or two late starting the game, you will be getting ganked all the time by players that are more powerful than you and they will block your progress.  The first players who got through 'brit graveyard' were free to advance their skills pretty freely, but anyone who started late, always had more powerful characters waiting for them.  This was the reason that some players 'loved' old UO.. because they were out there early.   I was lucky when I played UO, i started at launch.  But I had enough friends who started late and I 'experienced' what they did.   New players won't renew

5. Class/skill balance - Class balance is extremely hard to do.  Class balance in PvP is almost impossible.   How much fun is it going to be to play if you aren't the OP class? If because of skill/class balance you are losing your gear all the time.  In every game, players cry about class balance.. in a game where it means you lose your gear..they will do more than cry, they will quit, or they will reroll to the OP class.

6. Bring your friends -  full-loss death means that players will group up and wander in bands.  This sounds cool in theory, but what happens if you log in and you don't have many friends on?   And again, what about new players?

UO pre-trammel showed exactly what is going to happen with DF.

1.  New players won't last the first month
2. Exploits will be rampent and spread quickly.   'tricking' players into going grey will be considered a tactic.  Players who are successful aren't the ones who use their skills the best, they will be the ones who learn to game the game.
3. The Flavor-of-the-month class will be the only one played.   UO had a phase (about 6 months) where everyone was a mage who carried a polearm. 
4.  Gear grinding -  You'll have to have many sets of gear stored, or else when you die with your group, you will get left behind as you try to get more gear.

There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset.

If you have a pre-built guild and you plan on starting on day 1 things will seem fine for a few weeks... but the UO ruleset just is not viable for a longterm game

 

Yes thats a nice long detailed description of how open PvP did not work in Ultima Online......yeah that game thats 10 years old. Just because that old game used FFA PvP doesnt mean it will be anything like Darkfall. They are totally different games so stop being so predictable and comparing the two of them purely because you dont have any other examples to compare it with. You could just as easily use EVE as an example of how PvP can work in a game. Yes congratulations some games in tbe past have failed and some have succeeded. So whats your point? UO didnt do it well so it will be the same for any other FFA PvP game? Use your brain.

You said "There is a reason why UO made Trammel, they were losing a ton of players because of the ruleset."

Well its a good thing that Darkfall is using Darkfalls ruleset then isnt it which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ultima Online as thats a totally different game with a totally different ruleset........oh yeah and its 10 years old as well lol.

There are so many problems with the points the op makes I'm not going to try to correct him, and yeah WoW didn't fail because Asheron's Call 2 failed, did it?

wow, in no way, is a pvp game.  even the pvp servers on wow are carebear.

why are you comparing wow to pvp games?  that makes no sense.  that's like me comparing an apple to a cow turd and saying that apples taste a lot better than cow turds... sure you can make the comparison... but WHY would you?

Originally posted by Evasia

still whine about about a 11year old game hey guys

well, we are talking about darkfall after all.

Originally posted by damian7 

let's compare this loss of time, shall we?

 you lose time in wow, which means, you run back to your body (a minute or two).

in uo, you'd lose time, as in you would have to create/buy all new equipment to replace the equipment which was lost.  which means you'd have to earn the loot, or dig up the resources, etc.

 there is no comparison.  not rationally.  not logically.

It is exactly the same, rationally and logically.  The amount of time may differ but it is still the same.

Just because someone may consider the amount of downtime in one game acceptable in one game but unacceptable in the other does not make it different.

Originally posted by Wickersham

Is it enough?  For me, it depends on how soft or hard they make the redemption system.

There's a fine line between a perfect balance for those who are upset and extreme overkill.   There were a thousand and one solutions to remedy the extreme nature of Ultima Online without totally destroying the community. 

 Ever meet an original UO gamer that doesn't talk about it like it was the greatest game in the world? Ever meet an original UO gamer who doesn't cry when you mention Trammel? Sorry buddy, but there's a reason why UO had the most die-hard MMO fans to date... and it's not because of what you said was wrong with the game.

Haha, this is true.

Now Trammel fans, let us hear about your great stories from the carebearland. I never understood why you wanted it back then, and I can`t understand why you want DF to be Trammel today. I might have missed something so please tell me.

What made Trammel so exciting and worth fighting for?

What was your great moments in Trammel that you remember 10 years later?

Originally posted by ShneakyOne

The OP is wrong. The above poster is wrong.

OSI did NOT make the game, OSI killed the game. The numbers REFLECT this. You say the numbers went down prior to releasing Trammel? They were actually going down when OSI took over, not because of what was happening in the community, but what was happening in the company.

 

That is the proof. Ever meet an original UO gamer that doesn't talk about it like it was the greatest game in the world? Ever meet an original UO gamer who doesn't cry when you mention Trammel? Sorry buddy, but there's a reason why UO had the most die-hard MMO fans to date... and it's not because of what you said was wrong with the game.

I'm w-w-w-w-w-w-wrong?!?!?!????
 

Raph Koster himself admitted that PKing was a problem in UO when he said "I think we hit a lot of [our design goals], and were close to having much of it working, but the PK [player killing] problem basically undermined everything."  And again "UO often felt like long days of taking out things we had put into the game because players found ways to hurt each other with the toys we gave them."

His solutions were "...various systems like stat loss and ping-pong murder counts were having a gradual effect on PK attacks." and "If we had gotten to the natural next step, which was player cities with control over PvP within their territory, I think the real nature of PvP in the game could have emerged."

Koster left and they addressed the issue once and for all with Trammel.

PKing was a problem with the anarchy system that was original UO and it needed to be addressed.  How it was addressed is really the only issue at hand.  There is more than one way to curb PKing - Darkfall has one and UO implemented several before they gave players the choice.

      The problem with Uo was that even though it was a sandbox too many players took their pleasure in griefing and killing other players all the time.......There wasnt a single activity you could where you could just sit back and relax a couple minutes without some jerk trying to kill you.....You couldnt mine, fish, work on animal taming, nothing.....In UO the joy for too many players was basically waiting for people to walk outside the gates of Brittain and kill them or go to the Brittain graveyard and kill the noobs.........  If this is what Darkfall is going to be like then it will struggle mightily as most new players dont want to get ganked by losers all day long.

Originally posted by damian7 

so why did they change uo from ffa pvp to carebear-land with insurance for all your items?

draw a line from point a to point b and logically explain the thinking instead of just throwing out "nuh huh".

So why did SOE change SWG from a great sandbox game that was still bringing in new subscriptions to a completely different game that is now a wasteland and alienated all of their original customer base?

The answer to this question and yours:  money. 

EA wanted more money with UO.  They looked at the market and saw that EQ was going to be doing better than UO and started making changes to the game to try and cater to the EQ crowd.  The only problem was, UO already had a loyal fanbase that was steadily GROWING.  The changes forced out the fans of UO and brought in a lot new players until the game tanked because they turned it from an engaging, fun, intense gaming experience into ... well.. EQ 2D.

SOE saw WoW and did pretty much the same thing EA did.

IMO Darkfall is not only appealing to griefers.  Its immersive world will draw forth many Role Players.  I honestly think it could go either way, but Anarchy CAN work.  There was a long period of time in the (dare I say it) real world when you couldnt get your gear back and you could attack anyone any time.  The thing is you have incentive to not kill people, and there will be large groups ready to squash you if you grief.  Guilds will build cities, and guess who isn't welcome.  Im sure there will be bounty hunters and mercenaries devoted full time to hunting down griefers. 

For those of you who have played EVE online, you are probably aware that you can attack anyone any time.  Are you going to?  NO!!!!  Is high sec much different than the confines of a city wall?  Are Corps that much different than guilds?  Even when 2 ships run into each other in the middle of now where, sometimes they just are busy doing their own thing like ratting or mining whatever.  Just because you can kill somone doesnt mean you will.   If everyone runs around spawning and killing each other, the game likely wont be much fun.  If the game wont be fun that way, why will people play that way?  Oh wait...they won't.

pre-trammel UO was the most exciting heart-pounding action I ever experienced in a mmo.....hands down

did it hurt to be pk'd and looted? yes

was there alot of people doing this? at times

but that  sense of fear and excitement is something I have been lookin for in an mmo ever since.

to be perfectly honest I welcomed trammel at first because it was a chance for me and my wife too place a tower ( slightly smaller castle) that we had worked and saved for. we came into UO a few months after release. not only was we behind the 8-ball so too say but it was our first mmo....we were total noobs and it was rough I wont lie but thats fun to me and I think quite a few others. but a few months after trammel we quit to go play eq......UO had lost its excitement .

those that want theme-park/ zero death penalty/item grinders have plenty to choose from......those of us that have been waiting for an exciting skill-based sandbox with severe penaltys for not being ontop of your game at all times will hopefully have a new home in DF.......if thats only 80k-150k people so be it....they may only get 40k-75k ....so what ...as long as they can stay afloat and make a few bucks I wont complain.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by damian7 

let's compare this loss of time, shall we?

 you lose time in wow, which means, you run back to your body (a minute or two).

in uo, you'd lose time, as in you would have to create/buy all new equipment to replace the equipment which was lost.  which means you'd have to earn the loot, or dig up the resources, etc.

 there is no comparison.  not rationally.  not logically.

 

It is exactly the same, rationally and logically.  The amount of time may differ but it is still the same.

Just because someone may consider the amount of downtime in one game acceptable in one game but unacceptable in the other does not make it different.

so, you're saying that 2 minutes running back to your body in wow is equal to 8 hours of work getting the same gear that you'd lost in a ffa pvp game?

the CONCEPT of time loss is the same, the ACTUAL time lost is nowhere near the same.

so, what are you havering about?

edit:  no really, i re-read the quoted.  and just because someone types something, does NOT mean that the information is accurate, factual or makes any sense.

NO, dying in pvp in wow is pretty much ZERO penalty.  running back to your body?  if that's a problem for you, i'm so sorry that you have no concept of what a death penalty is.  running back to your body is NOT a death penalty.  having all your goodies (or even some of your goodies) looted is a death penalty.  item decay (i.e. you can repair it but it still decays a little more each time until it's useless) is a penalty.

running back to your body in WOW is in no way shape or form any type of a PENALTY.

typing that it is, or that it's the same as a ffa pvp game is still WRONG, and because someone typed otherwise does NOT change the fact that what was typed is wrong.

Originally posted by damian7 

so, you're saying that 2 minutes running back to your body in wow is equal to 8 hours of work getting the same gear that you'd lost in a ffa pvp game?

 the CONCEPT of time loss is the same, the ACTUAL time lost is nowhere near the same.

 so, what are you havering about?

 edit:  no really, i re-read the quoted.  and just because someone types something, does NOT mean that the information is accurate, factual or makes any sense.

 NO, dying in pvp in wow is pretty much ZERO penalty.  running back to your body?  if that's a problem for you, i'm so sorry that you have no concept of what a death penalty is.  running back to your body is NOT a death penalty.  having all your goodies (or even some of your goodies) looted is a death penalty.  item decay (i.e. you can repair it but it still decays a little more each time until it's useless) is a penalty.

 running back to your body in WOW is in no way shape or form any type of a PENALTY.

 typing that it is, or that it's the same as a ffa pvp game is still WRONG, and because someone typed otherwise does NOT change the fact that what was typed is wrong.

Yes I am talking about the concept.  The first poster said that you didn't lose anything when you die in wow, he is wrong, you lose the same thing as in any mmorpg whether it is full loot or not.

I still maintain that it is the same, you haven't disputed what I have said.  Whether you have to spend 15 seconds running back to your corpse or 15 days requipping yourself the penalty is the same, you have lost some of your time.  If you read enough posts on this forum it obvious that some people regard 15 seconds of time wasted by the malicous act of another player is an unacceptable outrage that would make them cancel their account, especially if the other player benefits as a result.   Other people are quite happy to lose literally months of work in pvp.  The only difference between the two is the of amount time in question and peoples attitude and annoyance threshold to time wastage.  Some people like myself do not regard it as wasted time at all, they see it as playing the game.

problem with wow and others like it is that gear defines your character.. I would suspect that 90% of the gear you use In DF will player made and easily replaced....and yes its just time regardless...unless your dumb enuff to buy gold from the chinese.

     Really the only way we can make any judgements on this game is to try it........Now if they restrict open beta invites or make us pay through a third party website then it will hurt DF considerably......... While this game seems to have an interesting world, it also seems to have severe rule sets that could make it either very fun or very bad........I played in Pre-Trammel UO and I hated it despite liking some aspects of the game.......

Originally posted by damian7

work

And this is what MMORPGs shouldn't be like.

Originally posted by Blodpls

Originally posted by damian7 

so, you're saying that 2 minutes running back to your body in wow is equal to 8 hours of work getting the same gear that you'd lost in a ffa pvp game?

 the CONCEPT of time loss is the same, the ACTUAL time lost is nowhere near the same.

 so, what are you havering about?

 edit:  no really, i re-read the quoted.  and just because someone types something, does NOT mean that the information is accurate, factual or makes any sense.

 NO, dying in pvp in wow is pretty much ZERO penalty.  running back to your body?  if that's a problem for you, i'm so sorry that you have no concept of what a death penalty is.  running back to your body is NOT a death penalty.  having all your goodies (or even some of your goodies) looted is a death penalty.  item decay (i.e. you can repair it but it still decays a little more each time until it's useless) is a penalty.

 running back to your body in WOW is in no way shape or form any type of a PENALTY.

 typing that it is, or that it's the same as a ffa pvp game is still WRONG, and because someone typed otherwise does NOT change the fact that what was typed is wrong.

 

Yes I am talking about the concept.  The first poster said that you didn't lose anything when you die in wow, he is wrong, you lose the same thing as in any mmorpg whether it is full loot or not.

I still maintain that it is the same, you haven't disputed what I have said.  Whether you have to spend 15 seconds running back to your corpse or 15 days requipping yourself the penalty is the same, you have lost some of your time.  If you read enough posts on this forum it obvious that some people regard 15 seconds of time wasted by the malicous act of another player is an unacceptable outrage that would make them cancel their account, especially if the other player benefits as a result.   Other people are quite happy to lose literally months of work in pvp.  The only difference between the two is the of amount time in question and peoples attitude and annoyance threshold to time wastage.  Some people like myself do not regard it as wasted time at all, they see it as playing the game.

Okay I'll keep the first part quick.  You are comparing apples to oranges and saying that they are the same, just because they are fruit.  Running back to your body, in no way, is close to the same as having to go back to your house or bank and re-equip yourself, or go find a friend to help you get back to your body which has probably been looted clean of anything useful.  In the real world, is 2 minutes the same as waiting 3 hours for a plane to arrive?  No, it isn't.  If you continue to argue that it is, you're only going to make yourself look stupid.

Okay, so the other thing I wanted to mention was that I think most people don't understand how the items are going to work.  In these games, the items are largely player crafted.  Your generic suits of armor could cost you very little if you are an average character in skill.  If you make 5000g a day, these suits could cost you even less, weapons as well.  If you are a magic caster, you could potentially get hours of gameplay, non-stop, out of 5000g.  It is nothing but a grandmaster item that can be made by any capped crafter of the appropriate profession.  There will be a lot of them in no time, so don't worry about having to climb to the highest mountain to find the only GM blacksmith in the world.  You are an absolute fool if you carried anything magical of value out of the city, and most people won't.  The penalty isn't quite as harsh as some people may be thinking... however, if you are reletively new, it can be a problem.  The world is going to be large, so I'm sure you won't bump into a potential murderer no matter where you are.  There are going to be innocent players as well.

WoW is a cakewalk compared to this type of game.