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Originally posted by kinglee
Apparantly you care about it as much as Ichijo and I do, since you cared enough to join the discussion and add some laughable links to "historical record."

I know it's painful to have identified with someone for so many years, only to watch his decline and possible disgrace.
But I have to chuckle...you belong to a blog that forbids all critics, so you need to find one with freer speech to join in and defend. I guess it's frustrating that you can't just call nanny and have me thrown out.

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Originally posted by Ichijo
LOL, one thing is for certain:

Whatever he had in the Ultima days got lost somewhere along the line because he sure didn't bring any of it to Tabula Rasa.

{ Mod Edit }

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I disagree the game was pathetic. I enjoyed it. Obviously not enough other people did to keep it running.

I liked the logos. I thought a lot more could have been done with them. Early on in beta you had to really explore to find them. But then because abilities were dependant on them - you got quests to find them.

There was a lot of talk about moral choices in quests making a difference - at the end of the day it was just a quest with two choices and it really didnt make a difference. They needed some sort of faction system for this to work. So you helped one faction and pissed off another, opening up new quests with faction A and closing off quests with faction b.

There was also a lot of talk about the instance missions affecting the main battlefield. This didnt happen - I can recall one mission in divide that possibly slowed the spawn rate of predators.

There were certainly few if any class specific quests. My engineer couldnt run around the battlefield fixing things. I think going with a class system a lot of work needed to be put into the game to make the classes really have different useful roles on the battlefield.

PvP - I agree with you this was tacked on the end as an afterthought. Most of the time in development the game was being touted as PvE only. I think if a game goes this way then it needs something like raids or something to make you want to keep playing.

Personally I liked the FPS feel, cover, pace and fast travel that T.R had. I liked being able to jump in for a short time and defend a base, or do an instance. I liked that money was so easy to come by that gold sellers were useless :)

I really really hated the crafting system. It was such a pain trying to find an EMP rifle and I couldnt assemble one from parts. I had a footlocker full of components that I had no use for.

I really really dislike that NCSoft dont have a multi-game pass

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

 

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Originally posted by kinglee
Apparantly you care about it as much as Ichijo and I do, since you cared enough to join the discussion and add some laughable links to "historical record."

I know it's painful to have identified with someone for so many years, only to watch his decline and possible disgrace.
But I have to chuckle...you belong to a blog that forbids all critics, so you need to find one with freer speech to join in and defend. I guess it's frustrating that you can't just call nanny and have me thrown out.

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My caring was more that Ichijo's post read to me as though he thought R.G had done no coding on any Ultima games.

And whilst my gaming days go back 20+ years the Ultima series (including UO) are games I never played. So there's no 'Identification' from that. My interest is remaining respectful of past contributions made.

What blog? Are you saying wikipedia is a blog? If you have other sources that have any information on game developers development history post a link.

 

Let's be realistic, Garriott was coding when it was done in languages like Pascal...

I doubt he could write a code block in C++ if his lazy butt depended on it.

He was rich by the time the object oriented languages became popular, he had no reason to learn them.

He stood back and tried to be the "idea guy" on Tabula Rasa and the fanboys that comprised Destination Failure Games didn't have the abilities to pull it off.

Garriott's treatment of the Tabula Rasa title gives the impression that he pranced into the DG work areas once in a while, waved his scarf and made pompous declarations, and then scurried off to have pajama parties and plan his little space trip.

I have no respect left for the guy, at all, and I sincerely hope he quietly retires and stays away from the gaming industry.

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I have no respect left for the guy, at all, and I sincerely hope he quietly retires and stays away from the gaming industry.

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He stood back and tried to be the "idea guy" on Tabula Rasa

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the fanboys that comprised Destination Failure Games didn't have the abilities to pull it off.

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Originally posted by Ichijo

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

 

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Originally posted by kinglee
Apparantly you care about it as much as Ichijo and I do, since you cared enough to join the discussion and add some laughable links to "historical record."

I know it's painful to have identified with someone for so many years, only to watch his decline and possible disgrace.
But I have to chuckle...you belong to a blog that forbids all critics, so you need to find one with freer speech to join in and defend. I guess it's frustrating that you can't just call nanny and have me thrown out.

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My caring was more that Ichijo's post read to me as though he thought R.G had done no coding on any Ultima games.

And whilst my gaming days go back 20+ years the Ultima series (including UO) are games I never played. So there's no 'Identification' from that. My interest is remaining respectful of past contributions made.

What blog? Are you saying wikipedia is a blog? If you have other sources that have any information on game developers development history post a link.

 

 

Let's be realistic, Garriott was coding when it was done in languages like Pascal...

I doubt he could write a code block in C++ if his lazy butt depended on it.

He was rich by the time the object oriented languages became popular, he had no reason to learn them.

He stood back and tried to be the "idea guy" on Tabula Rasa and the fanboys that comprised Destination Failure Games didn't have the abilities to pull it off.

Garriott's treatment of the Tabula Rasa title gives the impression that he pranced into the DG work areas once in a while, waved his scarf and made pompous declarations, and then scurried off to have pajama parties and plan his little space trip.

I have no respect left for the guy, at all, and I sincerely hope he quietly retires and stays away from the gaming industry.

 

 

I do not think RG alone is anywhere close to responsible. TRs failure lies in many places and I do not think Destination Games lacked the talent to pull it off. The game itself was very well made and fun to play. The problems were mostly the game was too short and not nearly enogh content for a game that did away with the usual grind elements.

According to TR devs RG was in contact daily while he was not in office and your comments about him being pompous seem to be quite over the top. I have never met him, but I have never heard of him being the type of person you accuse him to be. Ok we all know you feel vindicated, but seriously you are coming across too personally about a guy you are judging from one failure. Look at the list of games he was involved in, he was due a failure or two.

Do you know how many MMOs never make the beta stage, let alone go live? The list is huge. RG is not nearly the failure you paint him to be.

Ichijo and Kingleee I have agreed with you both on many things about TR but you are making this thread into a childish fight over nothing. You are both insulting Shadowmage and RG for no reason and all you will do is get this thread closed.

So I will just chip in here and say - I dont feel insulted.

I also understand that people remember me as a big fan of the game when it came out and a mod on a fan site. So they do have a certain impression of me.

And anyone reading my posts I hope gets the impression I enjoyed the game, hit the level cap and left. As thats the deal.

I can see why people would be angry with RG, as he's not explaining himself, but why starting nipping at others in this community?

Shadowmage just enjoyed a game that happened to be considered poorly done for its time. I mean, I enjoyed spore for a while and I bet that at least half the internet would disagree with me for doing that, but I had fun.

There's no reason to flame the guy, it's not like he's saying you're a dumbass for _not_ enjoying the game.

 Ichijo--

I've read back through this thread and find the claims of "flaming" to be spurious.  I see lots of facts, links to real documentation, a considered effort to review the whys and wherefores of how this expensive, seven-year effort was such a disastrous disappointment.  Your angry reaction to how the Garriotts made use of their investors is completely reasonable.  Americans should be embarrassed at how Asians have been treated in Austin, Texas, USA.   

I have frequently invited participants to go to NcSoft.net and read the financials.  I have summarized them here on occasion, but I cannot provide a "hotlink" because the files are either AUDIO or PDF.  But December 31, 2007, was the last day that RG's brother was CEO Austin.  In Feb, 2008 the CFO Lee said it was a "Financial Disaster".  This was almost a year ago.  The game limped along, but the corporate HQ obviously knew that it was going down, even though they made a few attempts at salvaging it.

I invite all RG defenders to do a comprehensive google search of RG during the past few years.  You will find many hits, he cultivates publicity, and you will find many instances of missed opportunities to promote his game and NcSoft.  But you won't find many opportunities where he failed to promote himself and his lavish lifestyle.  Evidence is as close as your keyboard, all it requires is some of your time.

Interview with Jake Song

as an opposing point of view to comments like

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That's not quite right, bro, Jake Song lives in Korea he wasn't part of the dev team for TR.

What happened was that Song heard about the HUGE amount of money and stock options that Kim Taek-jin (NCsoft CEO) had given to the Garriotts just to get them to come on board with NCSoft North America and he got so pissed that he walked out.

They lost a tremendous asset in Jake Song and all they got in return for that loss was a pair of fruits that tore the guts out of NCsoft in the North American gaming market and left them looking like fools.

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Song was briefly in Austin in the early stages. I think he caught on early that not much in the way of real work was going on, but NcSoft sided with the Garriotts against their star and veteran producer.

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And the closing of TR has dealt a harsh blow to game business in general to the city of Austin.

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 Have you ever stopped to consider how designing a game is so different from writing a novel ?  A book can be placed on a shelf and taken down and enjoyed again, or given to someone else to read.  A book is its own "operation immortality."

But a game only lives as long as the hardware that it is made for.  Only the older gamers can remember  the Ultimas, and remember is all they can do.  

So you'll have your work cut out for you, telling all the youngsters of the greatness that once was.  It's not like they can play it and find out for themselves.

A book can be its own operation pain in the ass. Especially if its a multi-book saga and each book comes out 12-18 months after the previous.

I did make a suggestion in beta that they should be writing T.R novels to capitalize on the I.P Other companies do it - Blizzard, Bioware spring to mind.

TV & Movies write Novel tie ins as well. Star Trek, Star Wars, Star Gate.

 A book can be its own operation pain in the ass. Especially if its a multi-book saga and each book comes out 12-18 months after the previous.

My point was how a book is different than a game as far as handing it down to others.  If you have a cherished and classic old game, it is hard to share it, say, with your child unless you've got the hardware and system to handle it.  Maybe a few would take the trouble, but I don't think many would.   I think these old games are doomed to fade into memory.  

A book can sit on a shelf for years, then be shared or reread with the same immediacy and no worries about clunky  technology.  

Hmmm - perhaps too much of a technology generation gap in your example.

I would say a book is more like a board game - both older low tech entertainment that you can re-use over and over until they wear out.

Whereas games are like movies - I have all these old movies on VHS tapes that I cant lend to people as most people no longer have the old technology required to watch it.

AOC is like blue-ray - looks really good - but who can afford the technology required to run it.

Tabula Rasa then would be HD-DVD - great idea - but not enough people adopted it :)

 Whereas games are like movies - I have all these old movies on VHS tapes that I cant lend to people as most people no longer have the old technology required to watch it.

That is a better analogy than a book.

But there are libraries of old movies that are consistently reformatted to improving hardware.  You can get a classic movie in blu-ray, but you can't get an old game.    

Ichijo--

here's news about what Raph Koster is doing these days...

 http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal_tech/virtualworlds/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212900535&pgno=1&queryText=&isPrev=

Originally posted by kinglee

I repeat that Electronic Arts has been vindicated here.  They tried to get Richard to develop UO2, and gave up on him.  Electronic Arts even stated in an interview with Salon.com some years back that they let him go because they could not get him to focus on work.

 

Man, so much of this mirrors the story of John Romero, his ousting from ID Software, and the eventual failure of Daikatana and Ion Storm.

He was also let go from ID because everyone felt he wasn't pulling his weight; was too busy off playing "Celebrity", or "Rock Star" as he was often referred to, etc.

Then, with Ion Storm, when he had the perfect opportunity to "put up or shut up" in terms of making a game the way he felt was right, where "design was law", he again failed to put his money where his mouth was, and Daikatana became a flop; early on there was an entire walk-out of the original Daikatana team because they were sick of how things were being handled.

And Ion Storm was in Dallas, if I'm not mistaken.

This can all be read about in the book "Masters of Doom", by the way; all documented and verified as factual from all involved. Very interesting book.

I guess even the flops are bigger in Texas :-p.

 More on EA--

While RG was praising Blizzard over a week ago, talking about his interest in getting back into gaming, on the 16th he was dropping hints about wanting to go back to EA .   

All the awful things over the years said about EA, and now he's sucking up!   

 Abhaigh--here it is