With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue?

I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people? I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. 

There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for.

Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item. Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such, but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?

 If your not happy with what Blizzard or SOE are doing go to a game not made by them. Just because they do something you dont like doesnt mean every other game is doing it. 

Look at it this way... just because WoW sucks doesnt mean all MMO's suck

EDIT: not all game devs try to do everything Blizzard does.... or at least they shouldnt

Ok i just want to make sure i understand micotransaction....so the company sells the item for money but nobody in game actually found it to sell?  I know sony had the exchange servers on eq2 where you could sell your stuff to other players legally...why dont they just do that and have auctions but over multiple servers...that would validate people's need to play endless hours and not only give them some money and the company money but the person who wants to buy the item could get their stuff too.....

again if this is how microtransactions actually work im sorry but from what i saw it means they just buy the item straight from the company wihtout a player actually finding and selling it....

Originally posted by drarakkus

Ok i just want to make sure i understand micotransaction....so the company sells the item for money but nobody in game actually found it to sell?  I know sony had the exchange servers on eq2 where you could sell your stuff to other players legally...why dont they just do that and have auctions but over multiple servers...that would validate people's need to play endless hours and not only give them some money and the company money but the person who wants to buy the item could get their stuff too.....

 

again if this is how microtransactions actually work im sorry but from what i saw it means they just buy the item straight from the company wihtout a player actually finding and selling it....

I like the way you think.  Everyone can benefit this way.

Originally posted by drarakkus

Ok i just want to make sure i understand micotransaction....so the company sells the item for money but nobody in game actually found it to sell?  I know sony had the exchange servers on eq2 where you could sell your stuff to other players legally...why dont they just do that and have auctions but over multiple servers...that would validate people's need to play endless hours and not only give them some money and the company money but the person who wants to buy the item could get their stuff too.....

 

again if this is how microtransactions actually work im sorry but from what i saw it means they just buy the item straight from the company wihtout a player actually finding and selling it....

I ask you what the point would be of progression in a game when you can buy said items by means of $.

I ask you what the point of role playing is when you can buy any item by means of using real life $.

I ask you what the point is of playing a game where no one wants to help you on your adventures because they know they can just get said items with $.

What is the point of a role playing environment with specific items when you can get all of those items by completely bypassing any role playing and adventuring in the world you play in, but instead buy them from a screen with a visa card.

Exactly, there would be no point to have items in the game at all.

Wont be long until EA or SOE pushes a ZT online RMT system on us.

Hang on, lets get one thing straight.

Blizzard charging to change your character's customization options is in a different league entirely to SOE selling experience potions.

That's not to say you can't criticize Blizzard for charging for a service that they make 100% profit on, that instead could easily be implemented as part of some quest instead of for cash.   However SOE far worse with what they are doing, are hypocrites going back on what they said in the past, and I hate the way they always introduce things like Station Exchange and Station Cash to their existing games.

SOE have absolutely no respect for their player base at all and they consistently demonstrate this.

SOE has to use RMT, because they are completely uncreative. They aren't making enough money with the million MMOs they have out. Instead of coming out with a compelling and fun game they took the shortcut. Shortcuts are short term goals, and rarely ever succeed.

Comparing a haircut or facial changes to bonus XP pots is idiotic. Blizzard doesn't have to resort to selling XP, becuase they have 11 million subscribers. The fact is games that fail to pull in subscribers are going to have to do RMT to make the money that WOW has brought to the genre. WAR(I'm predicting will end up with RMT system), SOE games, obviously failed in creativity, and have to find any way to get more out of their customers. Why make a great game? Its hard work.

Here's what I think; if a game has to resort to RMT to make money its probably not worth playing, anyways.

It's one thing to charge money for something that probably requires someone at the company in question to do something. For instance, moving a character to another server or changing the name (premium services in LOTRO). 

OTOH, changing the gameplay and adding things like exp potions, that's something different. You've got a lot of nerve if you do that and charge a monthly fee....

What is the issue?

The issue is this:

Evolution One

Theme:  Beauty, Art, World

Design games that are creative, fun, and inspiring.

Make a game interesting, fun, exploratory, and never finished.

Inspire people with options, opportunities, and beauty to keep them playing. 

Evolution Two

Theme:  Addiction, Grind, Repetition, Barriers

Design games with barriers, addicting content, and grinds for the 15.00 fee.

Keep them paying (not to be confused with "playing").

Evolution Three

Theme:  "Innovative" forms to get money from MMORPG consumers

15.00 is not enough.  Redesign payment schemes to get microtransactions, purchase in-game items off-line for cash, etc. 

"Creative energies," instead of designing content that is repetitive, grindy, and addicting will be designed toward maximizing the use of these new payment schemes.

The industry is take a new, radical, and ugly turn in regards to creativity and innovation.  We are entering a phase where the masses, already susceptible to menial and grindy tasks and addiction in various forms, will now have more money sucked out of them with these "new" payment schemes.

God help them.  I will have no part of it.

    I think the issue for alot of people is that they dont want players to buy their way to being the best..... I think that most players want others to earn their stuff and that RL money should not be the determining factor as to who excels in certain games.......I have no issue with RTS as long as it does not ruin the balance of he game.....XP potions and stuff liek that are fine....Weapons that can one shot other players are not.

The biggest problem with MMOS these days is people are to worried about what others do.  Instead of playing the game for your own enjoyment,  players waste time on if Joe Shmo got his AX of Uberness raiding or bought it off a cash shop.

   This is no different than if a person is driving a fancy car by years of saving and hard work or if daddy got the car for you. Bottom line both have the same car and only the person behind the wheel really knows the story but they both get to drive the same shiny car  anyway.

In MMos you can chose who you group with and play with. You can tell who are serious players and know thier business and who isnt. Dont let these things ruin it for you I mean criminy, just watch the news.

I mean right now in most games you really dont know if the person your grouped with bought gold or whatever so this really doesnt change anything.

Guess just saying that just seems people just waste to much energy on worrying about  what others do and all that will do is get you frustrated.

Times are tough and Id rather see a company at least come up with ways to stay in business rather than close it down and have people lose jobs. Maybe its a bad decision but this board is only a tiny fraction of the actual player base out there so time will tell.

Originally posted by EyeSpEye

With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue?

I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people? I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. 

There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for.

Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item. Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such, but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?

Because now the hardcore gamers with no lives/money are suddenly going to be on par with the casual gamers that work for a living.  What took them 2 years to accomplish will take someone with the cash 3 clicks to accomplish.

Peronsonally i'm against MT type systems in games, and will probably be hard pressed to play one where the MT store had anything other than cosmetic or fluff type items...

Z

Originally posted by EyeSpEye

With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue?

I think the issue has been illustrated repeatedly to be honest.

All you have to do really is read exisiting threads and understand, rather then make a new one asking the same question yet again.

I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people?

Again, this has been repeatedly explained on these boards. 

I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. 

There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for.

Listen, it is all about play to achieve versus pay to exist.

Play to achieve gamers (because I do not class pay to exist people as gamers at all) want a level playing field.

Play to achieve players do not want to be forced to have money bled out them in order to be forced to compete with the pay to exist guys.

We want our time and ability to be represented by the characters that we have built.

Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item.

No, we are way past that.

RMT games have proven that this model makes more profit vs investment, and thats all the corps want. More profit. 

This isnt a novelty, especially if people think that and continue to play the games that has this model.

First, appearence change, then levelling bonuses, then exclusive event equipment... There isnt an end to the slope.

RMT and MT are a money leech, and it's you that they are leeching from.

Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such

Exactly.

How can you recognise this and still call it a 'novelty'?

but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?

Play to achieve vs pay to exist.

Anyone that pays to exist has no place in any real game, because as soon as you buy items to progress you are no longer even playing a game, and in my mind is just a mug willing to be ripped off by an insidious buisness model that is proven to generate more capita pr head.

Thats all.

Originally posted by EyeSpEye

With the latest development with SOE's SC and then Blizzard's $15 appearance change, one thing is for certain, MMOs are changing. I have seen a lot of outrage (at least on this site) and I ask what is the issue?

I am not saying haters are right or wrong, but at the same time why is this such an issue among so many people? I understand that there may be a monthly fee already, but what is such a hassle that having people be able to buy things in game they otherwise wouldn't be able to obtain without sometimes godly time invested or otherwise. 

There are some pretty good pros to being able to RMT in games, such as the "normal" Joe who works a full week with a family and so forth can't afford the time to invest to get that oh so rare item. He spends more time working in real life life to earn that little extra cash and can afford to buy what others can spend in personal time to achieve. I see it actually somewhat balanced. I, like probably many people who have (and still do) play WoW have bought gold at least once. The way I saw it was I worked a few extra hours in a week of RL to buy something others will spend time in game to work for.

Now it seems as if right now all these RMTs are novelty and I don't think anyone should be upset about an appearance change, or a different looking item. Givin time, I am sure these companies are going to get much deeper into the game like really usefull items and such, but I ask, if someone can invest in a game as much as someone can invest in thier job or otherwise be able to obtain the same status, why does it warrent such an outrage?

The issue is a simple one, really.

Heretofore, the games have been set up such that everyone paid the same admission price, and what you did with that admission price was up to you.  So you could spend 24/7 or 2 hours a week for your monthly fee.  Those who spend more time, tend to advance more quickly.  I think people accept this as "fair" because it is analogous to other non-gaming activities: if I practice a musical instrument more, I will likely improve more quickly at it than someone who does not, and the same thing holds true for sports or any other hobby.  It therefore seems "fair" to people that you get rewarded for more time investment.

When you screw around with this, by in effect allowing Joe to buy his advancement speed higher than everyone else, it doesn't create a level playing field in the game, but instead creates two different rulesets: the XP ruleset for Joe, and then the XP ruleset for everyone else.  It's that creation of two different sets of rules in the game that isn't acceptable to a lot of people.

Most of the supporters of RMT and MT tend to look at the equity issue in terms of outside the game: that is, it's more fair because I have less RL time to devote to the game, and this allows me to catch up with Mr. No Lifer.  But that's really the wrong focus.  It shouldn't be up to the game developer to try to compensate for inequalities that exist outside the game: some have more time than others, some are smarter than others, some are more coordinated than others, etc.  What makes for a level playing field is not handicapping the experience (at a price) for those who are "poor" in terms of skill or time or what have you -- what makes for a level playing field is charging everyone the same price and then letting people decide how much they are able to dedicate to their hobby and reward them accordingly, as would be the case with respect to any other hobby.

Gaming companies are opting for this simply because Blizzard has whipped them when it comes to the subscription market.  No other company has demonstrated any significant ability to compete meaningfully with Blizzard in this space.  So developers and publishers are sniffing around for other ways to make money.  That's understandable, but using microtransactions scotches one of the fundamental "fairness" baselines in the minds of many gamers in Western countries, and as such is a pretty risky way to proceed.

Massively had an overview article

www.massively.com/2008/12/12/the-community-responds-to-a-week-of-microtransaction-announcemen/#comments

reiterating what I commented over there

with exception to Server Transfers and Name changes,

I dont think Cash transactions belong in Pay to Play games

should be able to use only ingame cash, quests, special events to get fluff items or ingame perks

The problem is people who up to know have been the "Power players" of MMOs would get displaced and so now they are whiny.  College students, Single people, Teenagers, etc all players with more free time on their hands then money would all of a sudden find themselves not the best players in these games. 

All of a sudden more casual players with more money then free time would be equal across the board. 

Sorry but the entire arguement about paying the same admission price makes everyone equal is false and a pathetic joke.  All it does it create a new currency (amount of Free time) which is used to create "Uber characters". 

Personally I could care less if this went into affect in most games.   People say that the "Western Market" doesn't want RMT but that is a flat out lie.  We want the illusion that we are all working for what we get but under the table billions are being spent on RMT transactions already. 

I hope Blizzard does something like this as well.  It would put the "Gold farming industry" out of business and that would make the game playing more enjoyable. 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

The problem is people who up to know have been the "Power players" of MMOs would get displaced and so now they are whiny.  College students, Single people, Teenagers, etc all players with more free time on their hands then money would all of a sudden find themselves not the best players in these games. 

All of a sudden more casual players with more money then free time would be equal across the board.

I really don't think it has anything to do with that.

The people who were vocally the most objective to the Station Cash have been casual players. Raiders and power players too, but in general the casual players were the first to leave and cancel their account.

I think it's a matter of principle and pureness. I have no problem with games who were F2P from the start. I have a problem with games which are P2P and add F2P on top of that. It has little to do with not being able to afford to pay for them, because I could, even though I'm not rich by any means. 

It has to do with preserving some kind of balance in the game where your adventures and gameplay tell the story of the items you own, not how big your wallet is.

I'm not sure where to stand on all of this though, since I'm not against RMT if the game is F2P and states so from the beginning. But I am against introducing an RMT marketplace in which you can just buy XP and stat item.

Even fluff items like people call them are often more important to casual players than they are to raiders.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by Cabe2323

The problem is people who up to know have been the "Power players" of MMOs would get displaced and so now they are whiny.  College students, Single people, Teenagers, etc all players with more free time on their hands then money would all of a sudden find themselves not the best players in these games. 

All of a sudden more casual players with more money then free time would be equal across the board.

 

I really don't think it has anything to do with that.

The people who were vocally the most objective to the Station Cash have been casual players. Raiders and power players too, but in general the casual players were the first to leave and cancel their account.

I think it's a matter of principle and pureness. I have no problem with games who were F2P from the start. I have a problem with games which are P2P and add F2P on top of that. It has little to do with not being able to afford to pay for them, because I could, even though I'm not rich by any means. 

It has to do with preserving some kind of balance in the game where your adventures and gameplay tell the story of the items you own, not how big your wallet is.

But what does it matter?  Who cares what other people have?  The game is for fun and enjoyment how does what other people have affect your fun or enjoyment. 
 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

But what does it matter?  Who cares what other people have?  The game is for fun and enjoyment how does what other people have affect your fun or enjoyment. 
 

It affects people's enjoyment. I can only speak for EQ here, but once they added the kiss which fills up your mana bar completely, once they added XP potions and once they added familiars and mount etc..it started to have an impact on EQ's gameplay.

You can pretend that designers just ignore everyone who uses XP potions and Kiss items but the fact is still there that content in beta will also be tuned around people who do have these items.

Once items unbalance the playing field of the game and influence the individual power of a player, they will influence content design later on.

Another thing is that the only way you could get a cool looking mount was to pay for one. Now you could argue that this is just a fluff item, but adding only new graphics to mounts and to armor which is bought from a marketplace does affect the enjoyment of players.