I want sci-fi Dwarf Fortress rendered in beautifull 3D with all the physics of this generation, havok, euphoria and digital molecular matter.

Untill that, I'll be in Dalaran.

Originally posted by UnSub

Originally posted by declaredemer

Grand Theft Auto IV

 

Your argument for innovation, creativity et al would be bolstered a hell of a lot if you didn't keep referring to the fourth sequel of a massively successful single player franchise. And an evolutionary, bug-infested sequel at that. Screaming out "We want INNOVATION!" while holding the fourth retread of an idea (or eighth, if you want to go back to the 2D versions of GTA and the non-numbered sequels) really shows the shallowness of your entire rant.

EQ / EQ2 have only had marginal MMO relevance for years. RMT / microtrans models have been shown to be very successful payment models for a variety of MMOs. It works because players don't have to pay if they don't want to. How's that? If you don't want any of the items, you don't have to pay to play. Compare that to a monthly sub, where you have to pay regardless of your opinion at the latest content if you want to keep playing.

As has been pointed out - and which you've pointedly ignored, preferring to play the matyr - there are plenty of other different titles out there to play. You could go back to where all the "freedom" originally came from and play UO. Perhaps you could try Dreamlords, an MMORTS. Or EvE, which stands out in a class by itself. Or Chronicles of Spellborn or Darkfall, both held up as great white hopes for the future of MMOs. Or a ton of other titles - take a look through the list available here at MMORPG. Try some out.

... but I think you'd rather be up on your soapbox, throwing out buzzwords that you don't even understand.

Funny thing is, unsub, UO has this kind of thing allready.   Also, thoes that keep calling this RMT, its not.

---

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
I already moved back to single player RPGs, i have no faith in future MMOs, even great companies like Bioware have me doubting they can do it on a world scale, despite mass effect and KOTOR.

---

That's the same with me.

My problem with MMOs is the insistent need to group and join guilds to even get the most out of the game. I just want to play without the ever increaing ingame time commitments (which guilds force on players); the soap operas; the dramas; the "IpwnU, [type in choice cuss word]" attitudes; and the MEMEMEness of players who just want to power level.

A lot of people leave MMOs without even saying way, they move on. But there has to be 1001 reasons other than what is yelled about on these types of forums why they leave.

The sum of the whole is that MMOs can't cater just to specific groups, it has to unite them under one umbrella that's tolerable to all the different play styles. Be it a crafter who only wants to craft (and it being a REAL profession, not secondary to adventuring); the PvPer who wants to kill anything sentient; to the Indiana Jones types who want to explore and find treasure (not necessary kill everything to get it); and your raiders who want to kill and break stuff for some braggable gear.

The ultimate MMO will be like a real city, with real people playing virtual careers. Barbers; bakers; butchers; farmers; tailors; carpenters; armorers; street sweepers; garbageman; jailers; cops; firemen; politicians; thieves; mercenaries; militiamen; priests; mages; sages...the list goes on. Each with their own rites and requirements (yes, even the street sweeper and garbageman). Coding it would be a nightmare, but giving a Wall Street banker the ability to play a priest he couldn't be in real life, is a powerful draw to get more than just hardcore gamers into MMOs.

I don't really care so much about artwork or visuals (as the limitations of pixels will remain for many years), but the ability to play a role that's something different and rewarding. Not running around killing mobs for "lewtz". It gets old and tiring for the nth time under various game names.

Originally posted by Lidane

All of that sounds like a personal problem, not some mythical "involuntary" choice. BTW, I'm talking about MMO's exclusively here, not whatever nonsense you're wanting to trot out about coercion or duress. Let's stick to the subject at hand, which is MMO's, okay?

When it comes to the decision of whether or not to play a game, you're not facing a lack of choice. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of MMO's out there. The problem is that you're living in a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet, no matter how much money and time they spent in development.

You want a perfect fantasy world that will magically work exactly the way you want it to, and which will fall down at your feet and worship you as the hero you want to be. That game will never exist, and you will always be disappointed if you stick to such naive expectations. All MMO's have flaws, and they will all fall short in some form or fashion from whatever over-hyped expectations that people have. The key is just to find a game that you find fun and entertaining, and enjoy your time in it while it lasts.

Today, I have several software disks on my shelf; disks that include software boxes and expansions from various genres.

About $350 worth of this software is in MMO games that I literally don't know how to play anymore because my owner's manual no longer referrs to the games I now possess.  Some of the games I enjoyed at one time, games that the publishing houses changed, because they and their expesive and utterly useless live teams couldn't leave well enough alone.  Other games can still be played, but are so distasteful with their new monetizing schemes that I can't see myself looking into the mirror when partaking in that crap.

Is it a personal problem?  Hell yes.  Certainly you or the publishers of these games aren't going to give me back my $350 worth of software.  The problem is my problem, just like everyone else who has had the things they have come to expect swapped out by these developers and publishers.  But don't tell me that I wanted it this way.  Don't tell the people who are damn upest with their devs that they wanted it that way.  We want to enjoy our software, not be caught up in some crazy financial scheme just to enjoy our software.

It isn't like we can't be pleased, because we wouldn't be here if MMOs didn't please us.  We are actually very easy to please, because we aren't asking for anything other than what we got before: a software product with certain features and customer support.  We aren't asking developers to worship us, have them bow to our whim, or create the perfect game.  All we are asking for is that the publishers stand by their word, restrain themselves from altering the payment scheme, restrain themselves from making wholesale changes that makes the rulebook obsolete, and basically everything else that a customer should expect from consumer software.

This is not "a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet." It isn't, because MMO companies have been doing fine without RMT on top of subscription for well over ten years now.  What additional expenses do they have now that they didn't have back then that justify these formerly free features?  More importantly, how does paying for these features give me or anyone else a better game?  Is it because they have to pay for more developers?  Frankly, I and many others would rather have less developers when their development talents go toward making our rulebooks obsolete, and our decorative items RMT.  Is it for better customer service?  Tell me, old timers, is your customer service better now than it was when you started with MMOs?

I look at those disks of EQ2 and SWG.  I enjoyed them, but I and anyone else should enjoy them without post-purchase tampering.  The problem is that the overpriced live development teams turned what I bought into crap in short order; taking my software and turning it into something I'd never buy had I known what they'd do.

If the game publishers want to make money, they should trim down their staff a lot, because I have no evidence that live teams make these games better more than they make these games worse.

---

Originally posted by Mrbloodworth
"The Future of this Industry is Creatively Ugly: Innovation in Payment Systems and Not Content/Gameplay "
 
You are compleatly wrong, there is tons of invoation out there, and more comming all the time. However, most players do not pay atention unless ts one of the big 5 devlopment houses. You also seem to be a victom of this trend.

---

Quoting this because people are ignoring the truth.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by Lidane

All of that sounds like a personal problem, not some mythical "involuntary" choice. BTW, I'm talking about MMO's exclusively here, not whatever nonsense you're wanting to trot out about coercion or duress. Let's stick to the subject at hand, which is MMO's, okay?

When it comes to the decision of whether or not to play a game, you're not facing a lack of choice. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of MMO's out there. The problem is that you're living in a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet, no matter how much money and time they spent in development.

You want a perfect fantasy world that will magically work exactly the way you want it to, and which will fall down at your feet and worship you as the hero you want to be. That game will never exist, and you will always be disappointed if you stick to such naive expectations. All MMO's have flaws, and they will all fall short in some form or fashion from whatever over-hyped expectations that people have. The key is just to find a game that you find fun and entertaining, and enjoy your time in it while it lasts.

 

Today, I have several software disks on my shelf; disks that include software boxes and expansions from various genres.

About $350 worth of this software is in MMO games that I literally don't know how to play anymore because my owner's manual no longer referrs to the games I now possess.  Some of the games I enjoyed at one time, games that the publishing houses changed, because they and their expesive and utterly useless live teams couldn't leave well enough alone.  Other games can still be played, but are so distasteful with their new monetizing schemes that I can't see myself looking into the mirror when partaking in that crap.

Is it a personal problem?  Hell yes.  Certainly you or the publishers of these games aren't going to give me back my $350 worth of software.  The problem is my problem, just like everyone else who has had the things they have come to expect swapped out by these developers and publishers.  But don't tell me that I wanted it this way.  Don't tell the people who are damn upest with their devs that they wanted it that way.  We want to enjoy our software, not be caught up in some crazy financial scheme just to enjoy our software.

It isn't like we can't be pleased, because we wouldn't be here if MMOs didn't please us.  We are actually very easy to please, because we aren't asking for anything other than what we got before: a software product with certain features and customer support.  We aren't asking developers to worship us, have them bow to our whim, or create the perfect game.  All we are asking for is that the publishers stand by their word, restrain themselves from altering the payment scheme, restrain themselves from making wholesale changes that makes the rulebook obsolete, and basically everything else that a customer should expect from consumer software.

This is not "a pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic world with expectations for a game that no company could ever hope to meet." It isn't, because MMO companies have been doing fine without RMT on top of subscription for well over ten years now.  What additional expenses do they have now that they didn't have back then that justify these formerly free features?  More importantly, how does paying for these features give me or anyone else a better game?  Is it because they have to pay for more developers?  Frankly, I and many others would rather have less developers when their development talents go toward making our rulebooks obsolete, and our decorative items RMT.  Is it for better customer service?  Tell me, old timers, is your customer service better now than it was when you started with MMOs?

I look at those disks of EQ2 and SWG.  I enjoyed them, but I and anyone else should enjoy them without post-purchase tampering.  The problem is that the overpriced live development teams turned what I bought into crap in short order; taking my software and turning it into something I'd never buy had I known what they'd do.

If the game publishers want to make money, they should trim down their staff a lot, because I have no evidence that live teams make these games better more than they make these games worse.

I enjoy your post as always. Thanks for the intelligent read. : ) I would also like to add to this conversation that I am not totally against RMT games but I want to know ahead of time that is what they are. Also the way SOE is implementing RMT gaming on top of an already subscription fee model is just plain greedy.

I have never played an RMT but that doesn't mean I wouldn't give it a try but I will not pay a subscription fee to play a RMT game.

Originally posted by Beatnik59
 

Today, I have several software disks on my shelf; disks that include software boxes and expansions from various genres.

About $350 worth of this software is in MMO games that I literally don't know how to play anymore because my owner's manual no longer referrs to the games I now possess.  Some of the games I enjoyed at one time, games that the publishing houses changed, because they and their expesive and utterly useless live teams couldn't leave well enough alone.  Other games can still be played, but are so distasteful with their new monetizing schemes that I can't see myself looking into the mirror when partaking in that crap.

Is it a personal problem?  Hell yes.  Certainly you or the publishers of these games aren't going to give me back my $350 worth of software.  

You think you're the only one that applies to? Get in line. I've got plenty of game discs, collector's editions, strategy guides, and  game manuals in my computer room spanning almost ten years, going all the way back  to my original EverQuest box and Prima guide.

I've also got collectible toys and other swag for games I haven't played in years and which are just taking up space in my house. You are not a special and unique snowflake for having that $350 worth of software that you don't know how to play anymore. Anyone who is a PC gamer has a similar story to tell, whether it's about FPS or RTS games, MMO's, or RPG's.

Hell, I've still got old computer parts lying around because I lied to myself when upgrading, reasoning that I'd build a spare computer with the parts I had. Did I ever do that? No. Those parts, which cost me hundreds, if not thousands of dollars over the years, are heading to the trash dumpster tomorrow, since I've finally had enough of my gamer pack rat syndrome and am chucking them all out.

It isn't like we can't be pleased, because we wouldn't be here if MMOs didn't please us.  We are actually very easy to please, because we aren't asking for anything other than what we got before: a software product with certain features and customer support.  We aren't asking developers to worship us, have them bow to our whim, or create the perfect game. 

Sure you are. There is always the expectation around here and elsewhere that whatever new game is going to be the revolutionary be-all, end-all of MMO's. It will destroy WoW with its player freedom and features, and whatever mechanics the rabid fanboys are raving about. These days, it's Darkfall. Six months ago, it was Age of Conan. A year and a half ago, it was Vanguard. Change the name of the game, but the story is still the same.

Every time a new MMO comes around, people who are still living in the past or who are desperate to re-live their rose-colored glory days from EQ, UO, or pre-CU SWG, where they were the most L33t, hardcore player EVAR and they earned all their gear by camping and grinding for weeks, don'tcha know,  start building up impossible hype for that new game. It will restore balance to the Force, or bring back the feel of classic EQ, and it will also cure their male pattern baldness and obesity, making them the young, hot stud they thought they were when EQ first launched. Same shit, different game.

All we are asking for is that the publishers stand by their word, restrain themselves from altering the payment scheme, restrain themselves from making wholesale changes that makes the rulebook obsolete, and basically everything else that a customer should expect from consumer software.

So developers should never update or innovate when it comes to their games, because it could alter the original rulebook. And they should never try to move away from one business model to another, even if they have solid proof that their newer model works because their own players have proven it to them by buying into it?

Tell me, old timers, is your customer service better now than it was when you started with MMOs?

Frankly, yes. I can call Mythic or Turbine on the phone, talk to someone and straighten any snags or questions out in just a few minutes. It's a far cry from when I tried to deal with SOE for anything back when I played EQ. Hell, even Blizzard was great. A simple 10 minute phone call solved my issue and got everything squared.

I look at those disks of EQ2 and SWG.  I enjoyed them, but I and anyone else should enjoy them without post-purchase tampering.  The problem is that the overpriced live development teams turned what I bought into crap in short order; taking my software and turning it into something I'd never buy had I known what they'd do.

If the game publishers want to make money, they should trim down their staff a lot, because I have no evidence that live teams make these games better more than they make these games worse.

So if I'm reading this right, you want no expansion packs, no post-release updates or added content, and nothing that "tampers" with the original game at all.

How is that innovation again?

The solution to this problem is simple.  If the games are really so horrible, stop playing.  Developers/companies that only notice money will notice their wallets getting thin.

 Lidane, stop beeing such an annoying conformist!!!

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by Beatnik59 

So if I'm reading this right, you want no expansion packs, no post-release updates or added content, and nothing that "tampers" with the original game at all.

How is that innovation again?

 

Don't you get it?  We don't want "innovation" that turns our games into something we didn't originally buy into.  We had games that worked, that were apparently rather popular, and that we enjoyed just the way they were.  We don't mind expansion packs; we have that in single player and non-MMO multiplayer too.  But for me at least, a "post-release update" means one of two things: either the game wasn't finished as advertised, or the developers want to change our software into something we never bought.

Some think that "never leaving production" is a virtue in MMOs.  Actually though, it's this genre's biggest failing, because nobody ever know what they are going to get on any given day.  All I want is certainty, and for me at least, certainty is more important than innovation.  Content to me (and many others) is something I don't need as much as a stable software product that doesn't change at the whim of some marketeer.  Because I can create my own content if the platform is stable.  What I can't do is create the stable platform.

Originally posted by altairzq

Before: creators loved games and made money.

Now: creators love money and make games.

quoting for emphasis and stealing it for my signature.

Originally posted by UNATCOII

 

---

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
I already moved back to single player RPGs, i have no faith in future MMOs, even great companies like Bioware have me doubting they can do it on a world scale, despite mass effect and KOTOR.

---

 

That's the same with me.

My problem with MMOs is the insistent need to group and join guilds to even get the most out of the game. I just want to play without the ever increaing ingame time commitments (which guilds force on players); the soap operas; the dramas; the "IpwnU, [type in choice cuss word]" attitudes; and the MEMEMEness of players who just want to power level.

A lot of people leave MMOs without even saying way, they move on. But there has to be 1001 reasons other than what is yelled about on these types of forums why they leave.

The sum of the whole is that MMOs can't cater just to specific groups, it has to unite them under one umbrella that's tolerable to all the different play styles. Be it a crafter who only wants to craft (and it being a REAL profession, not secondary to adventuring); the PvPer who wants to kill anything sentient; to the Indiana Jones types who want to explore and find treasure (not necessary kill everything to get it); and your raiders who want to kill and break stuff for some braggable gear.

The ultimate MMO will be like a real city, with real people playing virtual careers. Barbers; bakers; butchers; farmers; tailors; carpenters; armorers; street sweepers; garbageman; jailers; cops; firemen; politicians; thieves; mercenaries; militiamen; priests; mages; sages...the list goes on. Each with their own rites and requirements (yes, even the street sweeper and garbageman). Coding it would be a nightmare, but giving a Wall Street banker the ability to play a priest he couldn't be in real life, is a powerful draw to get more than just hardcore gamers into MMOs.

I don't really care so much about artwork or visuals (as the limitations of pixels will remain for many years), but the ability to play a role that's something different and rewarding. Not running around killing mobs for "lewtz". It gets old and tiring for the nth time under various game names.

What you area really asking for is an MMO community with more mature gamers who don't say things like "I pwn U" and "lolz".

Originally posted by SonofSeth

 Lidane, stop beeing such an annoying conformist!!!

It's not conformity. It's facing reality and admitting that all developers have limits, and all MMO's have limits.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Don't you get it?  We don't want "innovation" that turns our games into something we didn't originally buy into.  We had games that worked, that were apparently rather popular, and that we enjoyed just the way they were. 

If nothing changes in the game, it's not innovation. If EQ had never changed at all from the original game until now it would be stagnant and dead, even more so than it already is. Time brings new technology that developers may not have had when they first coded a game, and good devs take advantage of that new technology in ways that fit their games. If that new technology causes a previous game mechanic to change, so be it. That's life. Change is inevitable.

Also, no matter how well programmed and coded a game is, once players come in, the games have to change by necessity, because maybe those players are doing things you never thought of, or that you never intended for them to do. Even console and single-player games aren't immune from this. For proof, just look at Valve having to put in emergency code for Left 4 Dead to stop the hacks that people had stumbled on.

If you want an MMO that never changes and that always stays the way you like it, the choice is clear-- don't buy any expansion packs, and don't go into any new zones or any new content that gets added to the world after release, since none of that is what you originally bought into.

We don't mind expansion packs; we have that in single player and non-MMO multiplayer too.  But for me at least, a "post-release update" means one of two things: either the game wasn't finished as advertised, or the developers want to change our software into something we never bought.

So basically you only want developers to update and/or expand their games if they follow your rules, and not whatever they feel is in the best interest of their game. I get it now.

Some think that "never leaving production" is a virtue in MMOs.  Actually though, it's this genre's biggest failing, because nobody ever know what they are going to get on any given day.  All I want is certainty, and for me at least, certainty is more important than innovation.  Content to me (and many others) is something I don't need as much as a stable software product that doesn't change at the whim of some marketeer.  Because I can create my own content if the platform is stable.  What I can't do is create the stable platform.

Certainty is the antithesis of what makes an MMO an MMO.

These are persistent games and permanent worlds, and just like the real world, things grow and change over time. What worked in 1999 when EQ launched would never work now in 2008. Games have changed too much since then. Players have changed too much.  So has technology. As long as all of those things remain fluid and changing, the same holds true for MMO's.

---

Originally posted by Lidane
That was a year and a half ago. Throw in the obvious financial successes of the Station Exchange servers in EQ

---

IIRC, the Exchange servers aren't doing that well, much like the PvP servers (when PvPers come to PvE servers and attempt to bribe players with plat in chat to come over, it's desperate!). Majority of the population is on the PvE servers, and they even protested the LoN introduction.

They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns). 

Originally posted by UNATCOII

---

IIRC, the Exchange servers aren't doing that well, much like the PvP servers (when PvPers come to PvE servers and attempt to bribe players with plat in chat to come over, it's desperate!). Majority of the population is on the PvE servers, and they even protested the LoN introduction.

They've done well enough that SOE has kept them online for over three years. In fact, during the first 30 days, SOE saw over $180,000 in sales on the Station Exchange. That was back in August 2005:

international.com.com/Sony+scores+with+Station+Exchange/2100-1043_3-5842791.html

There's no telling how much they've made since, but if it stayed anywhere near constant to that first 30 days, it would be in the millions by now. And even if SOE only takes 10% off the top, that's still quite a bit of cash that has been made via RMT. They're not about to ignore that level of success and obviously want to try and expand that model.

They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns). 

I'd protest endless spam in a game, but as long as LoN and the Station Exchange servers are making that kind of cash for Sony, they're going to stay no matter how many folks protest it on the forums.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by UNATCOII

---

IIRC, the Exchange servers aren't doing that well, much like the PvP servers (when PvPers come to PvE servers and attempt to bribe players with plat in chat to come over, it's desperate!). Majority of the population is on the PvE servers, and they even protested the LoN introduction.

They've done well enough that SOE has kept them online for over three years. In fact, during the first 30 days, SOE saw over $180,000 in sales on the Station Exchange. That was back in August 2005:

international.com.com/Sony+scores+with+Station+Exchange/2100-1043_3-5842791.html

There's no telling how much they've made since, but if it stayed anywhere near constant to that first 30 days, it would be in the millions by now. And even if SOE only takes 10% off the top, that's still quite a bit of cash that has been made via RMT. They're not about to ignore that level of success and obviously want to try and expand that model.

They still protest it, especially the MOTD LoN spam (and it IS annoying, as that alarm needs to be reserved not for advertizements but crucial announcements -- like server shutdowns). 

I'd protest endless spam in a game, but as long as LoN and the Station Exchange servers are making that kind of cash for Sony, they're going to stay no matter how many folks protest it on the forums.

 

Only $180,000? Crap, a F2P can make that in a week! On popular F2P games, $250,000 wouldn't be too much just by their sheer number of players and the need to break the mind numbing grinding!

RMT on EQ2 is a waste, not enough players for the return.

Originally posted by UNATCOII
 

Only $180,000?

In their first 30 days, back in 2005. Who knows how much they've made since?

RMT on EQ2 is a waste, not enough players for the return.

It's clearly enough between the Station Exchange servers and LoN that SOE are expanding the model to include Station Cash. That's all that matters.

Originally posted by Lidane

Originally posted by UNATCOII

RMT on EQ2 is a waste, not enough players for the return.

It's clearly enough between the Station Exchange servers and LoN that SOE are expanding the model to include Station Cash. That's all that matters.

 

It's a gamble, that's all SoE did. They kept it quiet until after expansion release of EQ/EQ2 to dampen the blow but many people have left and closed their account, including me.

Are the people buying Station Cash going to make up for the lost accounts? I hardly think so, they made a blunder. They didn't expect the community to turn against them.

When your MMO community turns against you en mass, you can pretty much pack your bags. This has cost them way too many players and a good hit in their reputation as well.

Originally posted by Waterlily

It's a gamble, that's all SoE did. They kept it quiet until after expansion release of EQ/EQ2 to dampen the blow but many people have left and closed their account, including me.

And people are well within their rights to do so. That's the point. SOE are allowed to make whatever decisions they feel are right for their games, no matter how stupid they might seem to others, and players have the choice of whether or not to play the games. It really is that simple.

Are the people buying Station Cash going to make up for the lost accounts? I hardly think so, they made a blunder. They didn't expect the community to turn against them.

You can't be serious. You think they didn't expect blowback, especially after the shitstorm they got for the CU and NGE in SWG? Of course they expected people to get pissed off and quit. It's why they announced it without any publicity. They probably reasoned it was better to just release it without any fanfare and accept whatever blowback they'd get after the fact than annouce it beforehand and drag out the wank and meltdowns on their forums.

When your MMO community turns against you en mass, you can pretty much pack your bags. This has cost them way too many players and a good hit in their reputation as well.

I thought that would be the case after the SWG debacle, but there are still people playing that game too. I've no doubt that there will be a loss of players for both EQ and EQ2 after this, but there will still be people playing after the exodus over Station Cash.