Originally posted by Xiliaro

EVERQUEST OMG BEST GAME EVER

WHY: Its difficult.  Not in the sense that its actually hard, jsut in the sense that you cant run around and be stupid without consequence, especially pre-Planes of Power.  If you had any items with stats on them by level 30 it was rather impressive.  You would have to work very had and decide which spells you could afford as oppose to spend 2% of you rmoney each time you level.  Traveling was treacherous and not done for 5 silver whlie you go afk on a gryphon ride.  The community was great, you could find groups almost anywhere all the time, and you needed groups, soloing was very slow and unheard of for many classes until later expansions.  The raiding was epic, mad epic.  It wasnt an endgame saturated game, you could have as much fun at 35 as at 60.  For me the expansions got a bit over the top and subtracted from these elements.  But thats what I want...

I agree 100%!!!  EQ was by far the greatest MMO ever created, "pre PoP" of course...I would love to see a company come out with a similar style MMO and actually be successful, unlike Vanguard which Brad did try.. SOE is the ones who ruined that game by pressing it's release 6 months to early!

Anyway, as for me, I never really hated WoW, I just didn't care for most of the community that much. I dealt with the cartoon childish graphics becasue the game did have a decent stroyline and the gameplay was actually fun. But, the devs made it tooooo simple to reach max level. Once we all got there, raiding consisted of only MC and Onyxia for 9 months until BWL went live. But by then I, along with many people were burned out and finished with the repetitive end game..

I don't hate it I'm playing now and paid up until April. BUT.... I can't help but get nostalgic about some of the old school ways of doing things which WoW scuppered. Some ti improved but a lot got made too easy which shouldn't have been.

Things like non-instanced dungeons, I remember playing Legend of Mir (old Korean game from 2001) where the raid bosses were all open world and guilds used to have to fight for a place or queue for one.

Guilds would rota the guy who stood in the queue and some times it went on for 30 hours! Then some guild would come along and try and bully it's way to the boss and all hell would break loose. But that's the braw backs / benefits of open pvp it allows much deeper guild politics and alliances that mean something. So instancing was a definite step in the wrong direction for me. Too many games do it now and it takes the MMO out of the MMORPG.

People join guilds now to raid PvE and get shiny purple kit. It used to be you did it for survival. A good guild name above your head meant you weren't ganked at will as being put on a KOS list by a decent guild meant you were in for some serious pay back.

On the subject of open pvp I actually like the way pvp is now WoW but I still miss not being able to kill my own side occasionally. Some times people just need a smack for griefing, kill stealing, what ever and now we just have to suck it up. & chasing the red PK'er round the map was always a fun distraction.

In Lineage 2 I liked the grind but don't miss dropping weapons and armour on death though. That made no sense to me when it took so much to get them and reinforced the ebay mentality that was entrenched there. So in that respect WoW definitely is a step forward.

I don't like the population imbalances axross all servers in WoW (Is there a server which isn't 10:1 in favour of horde now?) although correcting them can go too far like it did in Warhmmer. Meaning people have to queue to play their preferred toon on moderately empty servers. But that's catch 22, maybe there's some middle ground there which Blizzard could introduce.

But one thing I think WoW seriuosly needs to address is not been able to level throuh PvP. Why other players don't give EXP and/or gold is a mystery for me. Battlegrounds should award it too to allow progression for those that want it and to stop the twink issue.

But WoW's biggest failing in PvP is the lack of openworld RvR. I'm talking city / fortress raiding across the globe. They've really missed a beat there. People are raiding the capitals now to get the new achievements but once most have it that wont last and the defence is weak as there's no incentive. Maybe if the attackers gave double exp or gold whent hey died in the enemy capital it could make things interesting?

I haven't tried Lake Wintergrasp yet as I'm still only 72 but it sounds like a major step in the right direction. At first I didn't like the dev diaries where they said they were happy with how pvp was at Halaa and were building it on those principles. I'm hoping it's nothing like Halaa as on the servers I've played on no one uses it for pvp so it's a complete failure. But the inital feedback is good so fingers crossed there could be some good end-game pvp going on there.

So basically I would like to see exp and gold for pvp, less instancing and guilds and guild alliances that mean something. It wont happen in WoW though as it needs to be in the core design. Maybe they'll put soemthing in their as-yet unnamed MMO project.

Read my sig for favorite mmo's

30% are commenting on old Wow. If you'd knew Blizzard , you would know you're speaking of a game that doesn't even exist anymore (Raiding ? perhaps 15% of its end game content) these days.

30% are commenting on issues they didn't even try yet (Siege fighting in Lake Wintergrasp). The same as Halaa? Good God. level up first and see what a real Siege could be like.

20% are just inventing things by reading other Wow-hating posts and the funny thing is they even think it is true.

20% use the four letter words to vent their frustration they can't find another decent game.

---

Good reunion of old veteran Wow haters, I'd say.

In the meantime Wow just adds another million players. All noobs and stupid people of coruse. All idiots, while we have here the cream of humanity as Wow haters.

Originally posted by bodypass

90% are commenting on old Wow. If you'd knew Blizzard , you would know you're speaking of a game that doesn't even exist anymore (Raiding ? perhaps 15% of its end game content) these days.

1% are commenting on issues they didn't even try yet (Siege fighting in Lake Wintergrasp). The same as Halaa? Good God. level up first and see what a real Siege could be like.

1% are just inventing things by reading other Wow-hating posts and the funny thing is they even think it is true.

1% use the four letter words to vent their frustration they can't find another decent game.

7% are blind WoW fanbois who think there's nothing can be improved on

---

Good reunion of old veteran Wow haters, I'd say.

In the meantime Wow just adds another million players. All noobs and stupid people of coruse. All idiots, while we have here the cream of humanity as Wow haters.

There, corrected that for you. :)
 

Originally posted by Garfunkel

Originally posted by bodypass

30% are commenting on old Wow. If you'd knew Blizzard , you would know you're speaking of a game that doesn't even exist anymore (Raiding ? perhaps 15% of its end game content) these days.

30% are commenting on issues they didn't even try yet (Siege fighting in Lake Wintergrasp). The same as Halaa? Good God. level up first and see what a real Siege could be like.

20% are just inventing things by reading other Wow-hating posts and the funny thing is they even think it is true.

20% use the four letter words to vent their frustration they can't find another decent game.

---

Good reunion of old veteran Wow haters, I'd say.

In the meantime Wow just adds another million players. All noobs and stupid people of coruse. All idiots, while we have here the cream of humanity as Wow haters.

There, corrected that for you. :)
 

I do NOT like
 

Guys that change your posts without arguments AND permission.

You absolutely want one negative point? Look at the kind of players you represent and that don't leave Wow. It's like an obsession. The love/hate relation with a .... game.

Originally posted by Sharajat

Originally posted by Nikopol

I'd agree about the addons. While some are quite convenient and bring utilty that should have been in the game anyway, the ones that play parts of the game for you are pure joykillers, in my opinion.

I used to play WOW pre-TBC, so I'll give you an example from that.

I played a healer. I liked the fact that I was always on my toes, waiting for the next decision which could mean life or death for us. Those deciding moments made the class for me. And then came the healer addons which practically turned you into a healing automaton: the player who most needed healing would automatically pop on top of a list and all you had to do was click on it - the addon would choose the right heal and fill his/her health pool up. (Not to mention Decursive, which did the same for dispells and decurses.)

It worked, but suddenly you were playing Packman instead of a healer from a fantasy world! I even remember a web page that parodied the healer's role then: It had a pageful of bars going down to zero really fast, all the while shouting "OMG heal!",  "you noob!" etc., and all you had to do was click on the bars before they perished, thus healing them! Let me tell you, it was uncannily similar to playing a healer with a healing addon.

So you'll say, "OK, so it's boring, then don't use it!" Ah, sure I wasn't... But because a lot of others were using it, the role of the healer became trivialized in no time and it was more and more about gear, rather than finding the right player with a knack and passion for the part. I could do my job well still, but it no longer felt fulfilling, because the immersion was just not there. Also, the trend demolished any RPG feeling that was left in Azeroth - this was now a world of not only numbercrunchers, but bar-squashers as well

Blizzard realized that they gave the tools too much power and killed all that stuff.  While in combat, addons cannot dynamically change button settings, bar locations, etc. Decursive, all those addons, they're all dead.  None of those addons have worked since the release of TBC. 

Nice, that can only be good for the game. Should help the game play better and make playing your class more engaging.

Incidentally, I got to see the game post WOTLK, too, even though I did not get to play it at length. Nice visual design as always, I also found the "phasing" technology quite impressive. (I saw it at work right after the Battle of Wrathgate.) Looks to have more variety to it, too.

I would not go back, because in the end I've decided it's not exactly my type of game anyway (due to my aversion to strictly linear  progression and overly gear-and-combat-based gameplay), but there's no denying Blizzard always makes quality products, if you like their stuff.

Originally posted by bodypass

Originally posted by Garfunkel

Originally posted by bodypass

90% are commenting on old Wow. If you'd knew Blizzard , you would know you're speaking of a game that doesn't even exist anymore (Raiding ? perhaps 15% of its end game content) these days.

1% are commenting on issues they didn't even try yet (Siege fighting in Lake Wintergrasp). The same as Halaa? Good God. level up first and see what a real Siege could be like.

1% are just inventing things by reading other Wow-hating posts and the funny thing is they even think it is true.

1% use the four letter words to vent their frustration they can't find another decent game.

7% are blind WoW fanbois who think there's nothing can be improved on

---

Good reunion of old veteran Wow haters, I'd say.

In the meantime Wow just adds another million players. All noobs and stupid people of coruse. All idiots, while we have here the cream of humanity as Wow haters.

There, corrected that for you. :)
 

I do NOT like
 

Guys that change your posts without arguments AND permission.

You absolutely want one negative point? Look at the kind of players you represent and that don't leave Wow. It's like an obsession. The love/hate relation with a .... game.

 

Aww does this mean we're not friends any more?   Nevermind I'm sure I'll survive

I changed your post because it was one of the most ludicrous and inaccurate generalisations I've seen for a while, missed out or glossed over any valid point that had been raised and stank of fanboi. have you even read this thread or are you just trolling your usual fanboy drivel? and I don't really care what you do and DON'T like TBH. Lighten up and stop taking things so seriously, especially WoW.

EDIT: I've just flicked through a few of your old posts If ever there was a case for some one to leave WoW for a while go outside and smell the fresh air you've made it in spades. It can't be healthy to be that obsessed at your age.

Originally posted by Nikopol

Originally posted by Sharajat

Originally posted by Nikopol

I'd agree about the addons. While some are quite convenient and bring utilty that should have been in the game anyway, the ones that play parts of the game for you are pure joykillers, in my opinion.

I used to play WOW pre-TBC, so I'll give you an example from that.

I played a healer. I liked the fact that I was always on my toes, waiting for the next decision which could mean life or death for us. Those deciding moments made the class for me. And then came the healer addons which practically turned you into a healing automaton: the player who most needed healing would automatically pop on top of a list and all you had to do was click on it - the addon would choose the right heal and fill his/her health pool up. (Not to mention Decursive, which did the same for dispells and decurses.)

It worked, but suddenly you were playing Packman instead of a healer from a fantasy world! I even remember a web page that parodied the healer's role then: It had a pageful of bars going down to zero really fast, all the while shouting "OMG heal!",  "you noob!" etc., and all you had to do was click on the bars before they perished, thus healing them! Let me tell you, it was uncannily similar to playing a healer with a healing addon.

So you'll say, "OK, so it's boring, then don't use it!" Ah, sure I wasn't... But because a lot of others were using it, the role of the healer became trivialized in no time and it was more and more about gear, rather than finding the right player with a knack and passion for the part. I could do my job well still, but it no longer felt fulfilling, because the immersion was just not there. Also, the trend demolished any RPG feeling that was left in Azeroth - this was now a world of not only numbercrunchers, but bar-squashers as well

Blizzard realized that they gave the tools too much power and killed all that stuff.  While in combat, addons cannot dynamically change button settings, bar locations, etc. Decursive, all those addons, they're all dead.  None of those addons have worked since the release of TBC. 

 

Nice, that can only be good for the game. Should help the game play better and make playing your class more engaging.

Incidentally, I got to see the game post WOTLK, too, even though I did not get to play it at length. Nice visual design as always, I also found the "phasing" technology quite impressive. (I saw it at work right after the Battle of Wrathgate.) Looks to have more variety to it, too.

I would not go back, because in the end I've decided it's not exactly my type of game anyway (due to my aversion to strictly linear  progression and overly gear-and-combat-based gameplay), but there's no denying Blizzard always makes quality products, if you like their stuff.

 

Yeah but you still fall into the category that doesn't play the game (since ages) and still want to evaluate it. Like the phasing or the new mobile Siege engine, the falling walls of fortresses, the rideable catapults.

Or the bind on account loot and badge drops wich eliminate the X time same raid affairs, or the daily heorics or daily battleground and open world PvP quests.

Blizzard changes it and you are still willing to comment on ... Wow and how it existed 2 years ago.

No problem. I certainly don't want you to come back.  But let me tell you: I am following it and I think a lot of you guys are gonna  be surprised when Blizzard comes out with a new MMO using these techniques to the fullest.

They are really hampered now by Wow (like phasing and destructable worlds), but by just following the transitions in Wow, you can see that behind those Blizzard walls some tremendous new MMO techniques are being prepared and tested. Of course Wow doesn't allow SW or OG to be bombarded and go in ruins. But these techniques together with phasing and RTS play are proof of progress in design of MMO's. Any form of MMO's.

I am pretty sure of that (and I m not talking of SC2 or D3).

I dont think that much players hate WoW. Many oldschool MMO players hate the fact that most of WoW players that never have seen any other mmo think that WoW is "the only" and "the best". The fact is that WoW is great game but very weak MMO. WoW have so many aspects from single and multiplayer games but so little from traditional MMOs. There is no freeedom, no risk, no intrigue...

Originally posted by iZakaroN

I dont think that much players hate WoW. Many oldschool MMO players hate the fact that most of WoW players that never have seen any other mmo think that WoW is "the only" and "the best". The fact is that WoW is great game but very weak MMO. WoW have so many aspects from single and multiplayer games but so little from traditional MMOs. There is no freeedom, no risk, no intrigue...

Freedom?

Up in the sky on my (hard worked for) personal Neitherwing dragon  --- flying over Outland or Northrend .....:)

Risk ? Well the agro of my wife is sometimes very threathening during battles. And i always enter the arena with full stress afraid of losing a battle (and having to wait another few weeks for that epic piece of gear for dropping on the personal ratings list).

Intrigue? I love Hercule Poirot, I even have a character named after him. ;) or when I let a PvP player jump to his death on that cliff mind controlling him as a priest.

Oh But I see now, you only had a trial account of Wow , so you don't even have an idea of what we are talking about.... and still want to comment.

Right now, WoW is the most entertaining game on the market.  It has a huge following, and Blizzard does deliver.  I won't say it is my favorite, there are aspects I like and dislike, however I will say nothing else compares at the present time.

 Mmm well what i like most about wow is how all the classes are so different. A lot of other mmo's have tons of classes, but most of the moves are exactly the same with a different name. 

I like wow's skills and spells and their controls, enjoyable to jump over and over lol. And being able to move around is so much easier then in most mmo's

BUT HOW EVER 

pvp sucks, pve sucks, the most enjoyable thing for me in pve is lvling 20 different characters, so many people you raid with dont know whats going on or know how to follow directions.

pve is also really reaaally slow and tedious, i dont even care about getting loot myself, but when someone gets loot they often bail on the guild or quit the game 1 week after getting it.

PvP, wow..... maybe my tastes are quite different then others but... i like to feel like im worth something more then just 2 honor points. pvp ranks were probably the best thing blizzard did. that was before bc....

i prefer world pvp over any bg or arena, pvp is not just about lets throw people in an enclosed area and see who wins.

SO those are my dislikes and likes about wow and generalization of what im looking for in an mmo.

I don't hate WoW but at the same time it's a pretty simple game. It's very easy to play which is why it's so popular. I think the reason that there is so much dislike towards WoW from the hardcore community is because an average, simple game like WoW is so popular that so many devs for future games want to copy the WoW/Everquest model instead of making a game that will advancve the MMORPG genre. Right now there isn't that one MMORPG that hardcore players can look at and say, "This is my type of game," and I think it's because of how successful a simple game like WoW is. Devs just don't want to take that chance and make a fresh, new, innovative, complex MMORPG, when it's obvious that the WoW model is very successful.

The MMORPG industry is just like any other industry. The goal is to make money. And while the best way to do that in other industry's is usually to make a fresh, new, innovative product, that's not really the case in the MMORPG world. In order to maximize your profits with an MMO, the game has to be fun to as many people as possible, and there are far more casual MMO players than there are hardcore players. So the simple, tried and true WoW/Everquest model is going to be far more successful than a fresh, new, inovative, complex model. And that's why I think so many hardcore players don't like WoW because they look at that game and say, "this is the reason that MMORPG devs aren't making the game that I want." When someone finally takes that chance and decides to make a game that caters to the hardcore players then the enmity towards WoW will decline but until then I think the hardcore players will continue to blame WoW as the reason for the type of MMORPG that they want to play being fantasy and not reality.

Originally posted by Dragonart

 Mmm well what i like most about wow is how all the classes are so different. A lot of other mmo's have tons of classes, but most of the moves are exactly the same with a different name. 

I like wow's skills and spells and their controls, enjoyable to jump over and over lol. And being able to move around is so much easier then in most mmo's

BUT HOW EVER 

pvp sucks, pve sucks, the most enjoyable thing for me in pve is lvling 20 different characters, so many people you raid with dont know whats going on or know how to follow directions.

pve is also really reaaally slow and tedious, i dont even care about getting loot myself, but when someone gets loot they often bail on the guild or quit the game 1 week after getting it.

PvP, wow..... maybe my tastes are quite different then others but... i like to feel like im worth something more then just 2 honor points. pvp ranks were probably the best thing blizzard did. that was before bc....

i prefer world pvp over any bg or arena, pvp is not just about lets throw people in an enclosed area and see who wins.

SO those are my dislikes and likes about wow and generalization of what im looking for in an mmo.

Summary: You don't like a fair fight with equal troops like in Bg's and Arenas.

You like World PvP ganking because there you NEVER have equal chances.

Of course Blizzard just made Lake Wintergrasp for these guys, but even then they complain... Let me guess, you complain about the forces not completely even in Wintergrasp.

Originally posted by Kenorv

I don't hate WoW but at the same time it's a pretty simple game. It's very easy to play which is why it's so popular. I think the reason that there is so much dislike towards WoW from the hardcore community is because an average, simple game like WoW is so popular that so many devs for future games want to copy the WoW/Everquest model instead of making a game that will advancve the MMORPG genre. Right now there isn't that one MMORPG that hardcore players can look at and say, "This is my type of game," and I think it's because of how successful a simple game like WoW is. Devs just don't want to take that chance and make a fresh, new, innovative, complex MMORPG, when it's obvious that the WoW model is very successful.

The MMORPG industry is just like any other industry. The goal is to make money. And while the best way to do that in other industry's is usually to make a fresh, new, innovative product, that's not really the case in the MMORPG world. In order to maximize your profits with an MMO, the game has to be fun to as many people as possible, and there are far more casual MMO players than there are hardcore players. So the simple, tried and true WoW/Everquest model is going to be far more successful than a fresh, new, inovative, complex model. And that's why I think so many hardcore players don't like WoW because they look at that game and say, "this is the reason that MMORPG devs aren't making the game that I want." When someone finally takes that chance and decides to make a game that caters to the hardcore players then the enmity towards WoW will decline but until then I think the hardcore players will continue to blame WoW as the reason for the type of MMORPG that they want to play being fantasy and not reality.

There is NO reason you can't play Wow as a hardcore game.

Lots of possibilities now. Just look at the achievements lists. Battlemaster title takes you over to a no lifer. And a deadly Gladiator title will be impossible to obtain.

I am just starting to make a Conqueror: goal to have him around June/Jul next year or so.

I'd just like to point out if this argument hasn't been made (I haven't lurked through this thread enough to know if it has) that if you took into consideration the opinions of this community as a whole then you'd come away thinking there are no good MMO's.

Originally posted by bodypass

Originally posted by Kenorv

I don't hate WoW but at the same time it's a pretty simple game. It's very easy to play which is why it's so popular. I think the reason that there is so much dislike towards WoW from the hardcore community is because an average, simple game like WoW is so popular that so many devs for future games want to copy the WoW/Everquest model instead of making a game that will advancve the MMORPG genre. Right now there isn't that one MMORPG that hardcore players can look at and say, "This is my type of game," and I think it's because of how successful a simple game like WoW is. Devs just don't want to take that chance and make a fresh, new, innovative, complex MMORPG, when it's obvious that the WoW model is very successful.

The MMORPG industry is just like any other industry. The goal is to make money. And while the best way to do that in other industry's is usually to make a fresh, new, innovative product, that's not really the case in the MMORPG world. In order to maximize your profits with an MMO, the game has to be fun to as many people as possible, and there are far more casual MMO players than there are hardcore players. So the simple, tried and true WoW/Everquest model is going to be far more successful than a fresh, new, inovative, complex model. And that's why I think so many hardcore players don't like WoW because they look at that game and say, "this is the reason that MMORPG devs aren't making the game that I want." When someone finally takes that chance and decides to make a game that caters to the hardcore players then the enmity towards WoW will decline but until then I think the hardcore players will continue to blame WoW as the reason for the type of MMORPG that they want to play being fantasy and not reality.

 

There is NO reason you can't play Wow as a hardcore game.

Lots of possibilities now. Just look at the achievements lists. Battlemaster title takes you over to a no lifer. And a deadly Gladiator title will be impossible to obtain.

I am just starting to make a Conqueror: goal to have him around June/Jul next year or so.

Hardcore doesn't mean that the game is as difficult as possible. Hardcore, in MMORPG terms, means that the game world feels alive. That your actions have real consequences. That you have the freedom to play the game the way that you want to play it. That maybe, just maybe, instead of a game being a straightforward, linear story, with nothing but raiding or a boring PvP model at the "end game," there is no such thing as end game and the story is an ever evolving one, based on real time events, with the outcomes determined by the actions of the players. Hardcore fans want to see true role playing elements in an MMORPG. For example, instead of everything being determined by combat, there are other ways of resolving conflict. In a true role playing game, diplomacy would have a major role. Not saying that everything is resolved through diplomacy but at least you could see diplmatic efforts taking place instead of everything going straight to combat.

WoW will never be that type of game. It will always be a linear game based soley around combat. Hardcore fans want to see the "role playing" put back into RPG and WoW is never going to do that.

Again, I don't hate WoW. It is what it is and it's very popular among the casual fans. But at the same time hardcore fans look at WoW and say, "the success of WoW is what's holding the genre back. It's what's keeping the genre from evolving into what we want to see." And until a dev decides to create an MMORPG that caters soley to the hardcore fan then I think you'll continue to hear those complaints from hardcore fans.

Originally posted by -aLpHa-

 

Thats funny, EVE is actually the only game that doesn't need to be played and you call it hardcore.

You're obviously referring to skill training and possibly hisec mining as well.  Clearly those two points make up the entire game and there is nothing more than that in EVE.  If only I had known that years ago when I received my beta invite I wouldn't have bothered to download the obviously shallow game.  I even went to the trouble to buy the game.  You sir, would have saved me the initial cost and years of subscription costs if you would have only given me this incredibly in-depth analysis of EVE years ago.

Originally posted by Kenorv

Hardcore doesn't mean that the game is as difficult as possible. Hardcore, in MMORPG terms, means that the game world feels alive. That your actions have real consequences. That you have the freedom to play the game the way that you want to play it. That maybe, just maybe, instead of a game being a straightforward, linear story, with nothing but raiding or a boring PvP model at the "end game," there is no such thing as end game and the story is an ever evolving one, based on real time events, with the outcomes determined by the actions of the players. Hardcore fans want to see true role playing elements in an MMORPG. For example, instead of everything being determined by combat, there are other ways of resolving conflict. In a true role playing game, diplomacy would have a major role. Not saying that everything is resolved through diplomacy but at least you could see diplmatic efforts taking place instead of everything going straight to combat.

WoW will never be that type of game. It will always be a linear game based soley around combat. Hardcore fans want to see the "role playing" put back into RPG and WoW is never going to do that.

Again, I don't hate WoW. It is what it is and it's very popular among the casual fans. But at the same time hardcore fans look at WoW and say, "the success of WoW is what's holding the genre back. It's what's keeping the genre from evolving into what we want to see." And until a dev decides to create an MMORPG that caters soley to the hardcore fan then I think you'll continue to hear those complaints from hardcore fans.

Honestly, but this definition Everquest wasn't hardcore, and all of the hardcore fans are chatting about everquest as hardcore.

The term you're looking for is probably "Sandbox."  WoW isn't a sandbox, and never will be.