I am a little more optimistic about the future.  I came from the same generation and I remember programming little games and playing them for hours.  The biggest problem I see today is the lack of RP elements and side activities that create a world that feels alive and interesting.  Big corporations are spewing out grind fests but on the horizon are a bunch of indie titles coming out and it seems they are targeting the more mature audience and aiming for thousands as opposed to millions of players.   2009 will be very interesting!

well in my opinion, and my opinion is from 1999 Eq to present, is that the players have not changed at all.

there were lots of nasty people in eq as i recall, and i would argue that its the same today.

the games havent really changed either. The games are easier due to people being lazy, but in general nothing has really changed in mmos in 10 years.. except the graphics..they all play pretty much exactly the same.

i believe that older players such as myself expected game worlds to have evolved by now, and are dissapointed that they are still stuck in level 1, pardon the pun.

Originally posted by Rumour

I think you are the kind of gamer that encourages playable movies.

You couldn't be more wrong here. I am a fan of originality. While there are movies that'd make decent games, I don't advocate that transition as it dillutes the market

What you call new is really a distorted reflection of what is already done. Honestly I don't think there is anywhere else to go but sideways.

This is a defeatist statement at best. I don't presume to judge you as a person. On the contrary I challenge you as I do anyone to be that innovative thinker. But if you don't have any ideas, or even want to attempt to make a contribution past these obituary reports for the 40 something gamers, then its best you be put out of your misery and find another hobby.

If someone invents an original genre then hell yeah thats great. But don't tell me the regurgitated crap comming out in MMO's today is anything new. Its not. Its everything we have seen before and alot of it actually did a worse job.

I agree. I play WAR, but my experience goes back to early MUDs. I was in the 5th-6th grade building my own PCs and remember vividly the imagination you as the player had to put into the game. You also had to put in a little work which made the relaxation element to the game that much more poignent.

But you are taking a point that everyone has deemed fact (not opinion) and put yet another doom and gloom spin on it. Gamers that go way back can't be dis-enfranchised because there was never the (almost) political landscape within gaming as there is today. CEOs barking at each other and developers openly criticizing someone else's product. What you aren't grasping is the innovation that can be born of the chaos and ultimate greed of these companies.

Powerful gaming companies don't want you to pay money these days. They want you to pay attention as it is much more lucritive to keep your attention than to give you linear choppy gameplay. But they stop when they don't feel the need to impress you anymore.

No need to make a sale these days, no need to court  someone for a potential relationship; they have you but they aren't holding on. So when I say the generation needs to die off, I mean let go of your sad complacency and move on. Don't expect; don't care. Force studios to make you care again by producing something new.

The OP is about giving up. If you have, then why are you still here?

The OP is about giving up. If you have, then why are you still here?

Very inspiring and this attitude is the only way to keep MMO's alive.

this could be sort of compared to the end of the 2d heyday. You know when mega-drive or SNES were around and 2d was the best thing ever. People now move onto 3d but 2d still retains a sort of seperate appeal that many nostalgic players will go back to.

Originally posted by tool321

Please correct me if im wrong but your coming off very arrogant. You sound like you think your better than every other gamer because you played shitty versions of games we have now 10 years ago. Your mad because video games went from an exclusive "hobby" as you put it, to a worldwide entertainment business. Excuse my radical comparison but it would be like if wilbur and orville wright were pissed because we're flying fighter jets and exploiting flight to its fullest extent. 

 

Please, i want your opinion on my opinion

Flawed analogy FTL.

Gaming (which is a liesure activity) has been dumbed down to appeal to the masses...which, in general, is a true statement.  Can you imagine a casual gamer (ie. person whos first gaming experience was WoW) trying to play EVE?  This is different than realizing manned flight through a scientific phenomenon (Bernoulli's principle) for the better of the human race. 

A better analogy would be rock n roll used to be a niche genre full of talented individuals.  But it has been dumbed down to appeal to the masses by studios pushing no talent, musicianless, lip synching hacks.

Flawed analogy FTL.

Gaming (which is a liesure activity) has been dumbed down to appeal to the masses...which, in general, is a true statement.  Can you imagine a casual gamer (ie. person whos first gaming experience was WoW) trying to play EVE?  This is different than realizing manned flight through a scientific phenomenon (Bernoulli's principle) for the better of the human race. 

A better analogy would be rock n roll used to be a niche genre full of talented individuals.  But it has been dumbed down to appeal to the masses by studios pushing no talent, musicianless, lip synching hacks.

you use the term "dumbed down" rather recklessly imo. How is capitalizing on something dumbing it down? my first gaming experience was Vanguard but i guarantee i could play EVE. what the hell does that have to do with anything anyway?

Originally posted by tool321

 

first off, i messed up by saying that older games are crappy. I was hipocritical because i hate when people judge a game off graphics, so i apologize.

Second,  im 27 years old my first MMO was Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, so im relatively new to mmo's compared to you, apparently. 

The only reason the gaming industry is responding to us "spoiled brats" as you put it, is because all they care about is money. There are so many games to choose form, if you dont like one, you can go to another, so they are eager to please.

When i first played vanguard, it was exactly 1 week after launch and i had a very shitty computer tht could barely run it . But, the combination of overwhelming bugs and an insufficient computer didnt even phase me because i didnt know any better. It was still extremely fun and it consumed my life until the newness wore off.

Every mmo ive played since has seemed dull

everything has been done, so your saying you miss the pioneering days. i think i see where your coming from

your lucky to have been a part of it

All game development companies care about money. There is no such thing as a game development company that is a charity.

 No developer has ever programmed a game for countless hours hoping to not make a dime.

I am most definately not into the idea of giving up. I admit I have a doom and gloom outlook right now, but that has to do with today. I would love PC games to make a triumphant return to there rightful place in awesomeness. One hope I do have, and it seems to be working, is that consoles will slowly pull people out of the PC gaming market so we get less console-like games and move back towards PC games. I think the studios are making a mistake trying to compete with consoles on thier own turf.

Back in the day (early-mid 90's) PC didn't compete with Nintendo/Sega and that made for both sides doing what they do best.

By the way I'm only 25 and have been playing on PC since I was 5. Yes 5 I was babysat at my grandmothers and she was into PC's and I wanted to do it too. I built my first PC at 11. so I'm not over the hill by any means and I do find games today that I do enjoy.

Now one person mentioned that there are so many games its easy to just leave one behind in favor of another. Its this perpetual grass is greener syndrome that really seems to cause MMO's to fail these days. There is no sense of exploring past the first 1 or 2 things you don't like. You can just leave for the next thing and then when your out of options come to these forums and get mad about how your hypothetical MMO doesn't exist yet.

 One hope I do have, and it seems to be working, is that consoles will slowly pull people out of the PC gaming market so we get less console-like games and move back towards PC games. 

the line between console games and pc games has been severely faded, nearly erased. 

Originally posted by tool321

 One hope I do have, and it seems to be working, is that consoles will slowly pull people out of the PC gaming market so we get less console-like games and move back towards PC games. 

the line between console games and pc games has been severely faded, nearly erased. 

When consoles begin to come standard with a mouse and keyboard, thats' pretty much it. WE can already plug in a gamer pad to a PC.

The big difference is in the controls. Once everyone has access to a mouse and keyboard, there is no more difference between the two.

OP I agree with you.

Right now the only two games in the MMO genre that i could stand are Eve and UO (freeshard).

My brother asked me the other day why I still played UO, I turned to him and asked name one thing other than lame instanced battlegrounds that he could do in WoW that I couldnt do in UO.

He said something like Dailies LOL!  then I gave him the run down on what I could do in UO that wow didnt offer.

Lets just say I had him sitting in the chair next to me for about an hour.

It amazes me that people say todays mmos have evolved.

Originally posted by dave6660

I'm with you 110%.  As a matter of fact I think it applies to any hobby that starts out small but begins attracting a large audience.   The original "cult" followers get left out as popularity increases.  In the end your game genre has a huge audience but is only a shadowy reflection of what you remember it as.

Very true.  i can think of several sports/hobbies where this is fairly obvious.

The only thing I'd add is that it's not entirely hopeless.  The core following will always be there and every new mainstream generation that comes along will create at least a few more core followers.  I guarantee that WOW has created a bunch of new, core MMO fans that will be looking for some thing more challenging and complex once WOW fades.

I have to disagree with the notion that these games are made for a wider audience.  Perhaps it is a different audience, or a bigger audience, but not a wider one.

Today's typical MMO gamer cut his teeth on Counterstrike, Madden, and Unreal Tournament.  To say today's typical gamer isn't hardcore is an extreme understatement: this is the most hardcore, competitive, and game-savvy demographic I have ever seen.  They are the ones that brought us comms, clans, bots, ladders, and high-stakes attitude that you just never saw in the old MUDers.  They play to win, they aren't afraid of using teamwork or technology to help them do it, and have no patience for things like ambiance or immersion.

You see, the MMO folks wanted this FPS and action/adventure demographic because it is huge and not afraid of investing tons of money into a computer game.  However, it is not a very diverse demographic, as it is composed mostly of teenage and young adult 'outsider' males.  However, what I believe built this genre, and what made the genre so interesting, is that it originally appealed to people who wouldn't typically play computer games: housewives, professionals, the elderly, and creative-types.  They still do play Second Life, but many would like something a little more structured and free of RMT and outside influences like advertisers.

There has never been in my experience a more broad and diverse playerbase than the one I found in SWG when it opened in 2003.  I met grandparents, ballet dancers, professors, wives with small children, and doctors there.  These are people who wouldn't even bother with computer games at all, but played Galaxies because it was something that allowed them to be appreciated for what they were, not for their DPS or kill/loss ratios like the 'typical' online gamer.

And you know what?  It was those non-traditional gamers that made SWG such a wonderful place back when it first launched.  Because they weren't in it to 'win' or 'pwn all,' they were in it to experience something that could appreciate and reward what they were about.

We don't have those types in online games today.  That's because the gaming impressarios like Smed and Blizzard wanted the hardcore Counterstrike crowd, probably because they were 1)  a large, readily available demographic, 2) easier to please and 3) easier to extract money from.  Rather than cultivate a large, diverse playerbase of non-traditional gamers, these folks wanted to turn Counterstrikers and Madden NFL junkies into MMOers.

And they've succeeded, much to the detriment of this once promising genre.

I've noticed lately how a lot of companies have adopted the WoW model so they could hopefully bring in large numbers as wow does. This has led to a lot of disappointing games with regurgitated crap. I think these companies have failed to realize that if people are leaving WoW for something else, it is most likely because they want something different. Thus a lot of the newer games aren't sustaining quality numbers.

I do see some hope though for the future because it seems some of the games in development are following a different formula and are more "niche". I'm also an old time player, played some UO, but basically eq in 1999 and on. My favorites are EQ and daoc. So it is not just first game experience either.

I also like the the MMOs I do see coming out are quite different so people hopefully find something they like. I'm not one of those that think everyone must play the game I am, heh.

I don't think we disagree much at all. My point is more of a personal notion that this genre and PC gaming in general is being marketed towards people that buy very specific types of games. This discourages developers from making some of the more creative games. I mean honestly how many WWII games do we need? How many really great ideas are being passed up for this slack jawed audience for thier money. Thats whats ruining the PC game genre all together.

I will put a very simple example to show your are wrong:

EQ: You can jump but it lowers your stamina until it is so low you can't jump anymore and if you had to fight a mob you couldn't until you recovered your breath again. Cool.

WOW: You can jump. All the time. Bunny jump. Sillyness.

Multiply this for hundreds of features we have lost over the time.

New generation? No. Simplification that leads to meaningless games.

how exactly did this prove me wrong?

Rumor, I think we agree that today's MMO gamer and today's MMO game is attracting a different type of crowd.  Where I think we disagree is what the nature of this new demographic looks like.

Many have argued that these are 'casual' players, and cite things from publishers saying that they want to appeal to a casual demographic.  I disagree though.  These are the hardest of the hardcore, from games that only appeal to the hardest of the hardcore computer junkies, and I think the publishers know it.  They just don't want to use the term 'hardcore' to describe them.

Many have argued that these folks are not computer savvy.  I think they are extremely computer savvy, and use every technological advantage they can to be better than the next player.  They'll program bots, buy gold from resellers, and use comms; things that non-traditional gamers don't do.

Many have argued that these people are soloers and don't care about working with others.  I think this is a mischaracterization.  They care about their clans, and work closely with their clans in not only one game, but across many games.  They are team players, because they come from games that stress teamwork over self-reliance (Counterstrike, RTS, etc.).  In fact, they typically don't know how to play without their clans very well.They are such team players, that they'll share account info so other players can access their characters to play when they are not there.  It is true that they are typically antisocial to those outside their clan, but they are far from loners.

I suspect he people who are getting shafted in this new MMO scene aren't the 'old pros'  who played everything else under the sun.  The people who are getting shafted are the people who have little reason to enjoy traditional computer games, and even less of a reason now.  Those are the folks that made the old time games interesting.

I don't think buying gold or using bots is very savvy at all. Some savvy guy programmed a botting program and that guy is. I don't mind those hardcore guys so much. I do mind the grass is greener guys that force games to come out too soon or cause one to shut down when it very well could be a great game. Vanguard is a great game by many standards but it wont do very well, probobly, due to the fact that after that first taste people moved to something else and then something else till the sit here and talk about darfall all day.

When there was less to choose from people had to actually see things through in order to make a pretty well educated opinion. I've always existed along side of the hardcore audience. I don't mind them. I just let them do they're thing and I usually stick with a more communal group.