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12/06/08 10:46:25 AM#121
I dont really have a problem with RMT in the case of an f2p game with ingame shop where you buy your content in small pieces. The principle is the same as having to buy expansion packs. The lootcards in the trading card game however are like scratchcards (not sure about the right english words). The only way of obtaining the TCG lootcards is by buying unopened boosterpacks. You wont be guaranteed an item. This is simply gambling. With the first TCG set they just added fluff with the lootcards. They were nothing more then an extra skin on already excisting game features (vendor npcs, vehicles, buff items etc). Now they introduced new features with the diner and barn that are exclusively available through this gambling system called TCG. This is just a rotten idea and slap in the face of the still dedicated players (I feel for the beastmasters :( )
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12/06/08 1:38:35 PM#122
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 Actually...I remember other prizes being offered in various trading card packs...this was the 80's though so i'll be damned if i remember ...lol. Imo....the loot cards are just like the stuffed animals at the carnival. It may seem cool to have one...but I don't need it to enjoy the game. That's why I can't quite see the great uproar over an issue that basically involves an act of freewill. I like reading your posts on this issue. You seem to really think about the situation, and ask honest questions. I think the uproar is related to a number of factors, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on them. 1. Some of the loot cards give you advantages in combat or the fastest vehicle in the game. Proposed new loot goes further in this direction with a stronger buff. So, to be competitive in a game you are already paying a subscription for, you now have to also gamble--or patiently wait each month to see if you receive the rare loot you will need to keep up. Other games have RMT items, but (a) they do not affect whether or not you can compete, and (b) you do not have to gamble real cash trying to get them.>>> I still believe they are unnecessary loot items...Do you really need the fastest Dewback or a plus 1% accuracy on your pistol. Nice but does it affect gameplay that much?....Now I don't regularly pvp and never been a"have to have the best" kind of person..I like solo and exploration....so that certainly affects my opinions. SOE is making money of human nature...which is to want the best 0f everything...or at least one better than the other person. I think most profitable businesses do this. All said..you don't have to pay anything..... unless it comes down to beating "Insert any SWG player name" at a duel. 2. The loot items being introduced into the game via a gambling mechanism used to be available as part of content updates that you received for your subscription payment. New vehicles or schematics would be introduced as content updates, and this was good value. Also, new schematics promoted player interaction and an exchange of ingame currency. Now, people do not interact with each other, or spend fake money. They interact with the Sony online store and spend real money for just a random chance to get a desired item. >>>> This does suck...is it a sure thing that they don't plan on intro of any other items in updates...or is it assumed b/c of the way SOE has conducted itself in the past. What was the deal with the Everquest games?,,is that what they did with those....or is this just an alternate way of obtaining apparently desired loot? 3. Gambling real money on the internet for the chance of winning a rewarding product or service happens all the time, and I'm fine with that, as are many others. However, in these online games, players have to be adults, they are aware of the odds, the odds are verified by an independent party, and the odds cannot be manipulated in favour of the "house" outside of the player's awareness. In the case of SOE's game of chance, it is marketted to people of all ages, players are not aware of the odds, the odds are not independently verified, and the odds can be changed at the "house's" sole discretion, outside of the awareness of the player. >>> I did suggest that they should add a parental filter to keep underage children from this activity although if parents gave there kids free reign with the credit card ...i don't know what to say on that. Even an option at account management that prohibits the use of the stored card info ...over and above monthly service. I do doubt...however...that many "children" are playing this game...at least not near a majority in numbers. Do these concerns make sense?>>> Sure do....let's face it SOE has made some tremendous and player base alienating moves...no doubt about it..but .I'd be willing to bet (no pun) that 99% of those that use TCG services..are free-choosing adults who just want to one-up the next guy/gal at pvp...so if people are willing to bleed money...then the Sonysaurus is more than willing to feed. I think there would be much less of an uproar if SOE considered a different path in the way it relates to its players. Here are some things to consider. 1. RMT items could have been introduced that were not needed to enhance gameplay (e.g. travel speed or combat abilities). 2. RMT items could have been sold to players in a straightforward manner, rather than have them gamble for them with real cash. 3. Since SWG is a subscription based game, they could just include new vehicles and/or buffs as part of chapter updates or veteran rewards. They have done this in the past, and people have felt that this was good value for their subscription dollars. Now paying a subscription fee isn't enough to keep up. You have to get a lucky monthly loot drop (which is unlikely) or you have to gamble with real cash, and still probably lose. All of the strategies I've listed are much more player-friendly than the course SOE chose. In fact, it would appear that they have taken the least player-friendly approach to providing an MMO possible. In light of this, I think current players are right to ask questions and voice complaints.
overall though...I do agree that they should be offering the chance (through missions...pvp...whatever) to obtain similiar equipment...in game, compared to what can be obtained with cash via loot cards. If they are not doing this then don't even subscribe. Bioware will have another SW mmo out in no time. Again...probably the best way is to know what happened with TCG in other SOE mmos. |
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12/06/08 2:09:09 PM#123
SOE is running a gambling operation. They need to comply with the law on it. If they aren't, Smed needs to be perp marched into the paddy wagon.
Play the NGE TC(s)G</a>! It's Free! Its Fun! http://sturly.com/qd2 I encourage everyone who doubts the word of those who reject the NGE to try it for themselves. http://tryswg.com |
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12/06/08 6:48:17 PM#124
Originally posted by Sharkypal
No, its not legal because you say so or because it is legal in Lithuania. Sorry S
Just because you live in the USA doesn't make his (or my) opinion on what's legal and what's not when it comes to the TCG any less valid then yours. This is an international community.
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12/06/08 7:20:24 PM#125
Congress made ALL online gambling operations illegal and offlimits to US citizens and to US banks. Indeed if your bank accepts charges for the SWG TCG they are liable to chargeback on that alone. Smed's boys always were shoddy on the details.
Play the NGE TC(s)G</a>! It's Free! Its Fun! http://sturly.com/qd2 I encourage everyone who doubts the word of those who reject the NGE to try it for themselves. http://tryswg.com |
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12/06/08 9:27:46 PM#126
Originally posted by 3on1
if im correct u always get a card aka the prize.
The TCG is not SWG. People who want to fully enjoy SWG and are not interested in the TCG, are now confronted with exlusive features (Barn, Diner) offered through TCG. So if they participate in TCG , its for those lootcards, not to play TCG. Those prizes (TCG playing cards) you speak of cant be used in SWG. So they are not a reward. So do you get it now? We are talking about SWG features that you have to gamble for to be able to get. With the first pack they only offered new skins on already excisting features. New vendor look, new vehicle look. Just fluff anyway. It wasnt a popular move from SOE, but at least no one cared if they werent able to get it. So please try not to lose perspective here, we are talking about a player that wants to enjoy ALL features that SWG offers, while he already is paying a full AAA MMo monthly fee. But now new features are introduced that can be solely obtained through TCG (if you pay ingame credits for them, someone else gambled for them). |
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Originally posted by Obraik
Just because you live in the USA doesn't make his (or my) opinion on what's legal and what's not when it comes to the TCG any less valid then yours. This is an international community. I think the deal here is that SOE runs SWG out of the U.S.A.. The assumption seems to be that they should therefore follow U.S. laws related to online games of chance. It seems like a reasonable assumption to me. Further info. about online gambling in the U.S. is available at numerous sites, including this one: http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Federal-Laws/internet-gambling-ban.htm
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12/07/08 10:48:15 AM#128
Originally posted by Obraik
Just because you live in the USA doesn't make his (or my) opinion on what's legal and what's not when it comes to the TCG any less valid then yours. This is an international community.
Actually yes it does as he was making erroneous, misinformed claims. Its a US game, so US law is relevant. The laws in NZ and Lithuania are not. Mine is not an "opinion", it is a factual consensus based on current US and Canadian law and it's respective and very well detailed definitions concerning lotteries and gambling, both of which SOE are in direct contravention of by way of the TCG. S |
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12/08/08 7:10:24 AM#129
Originally posted by salvaje
Gambling: Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. You are NOT wagering money (or anything) with the TCG, you are purchasing "virtual trading cards". There is no uncertain outcome. You pay for virtual cards and you get them. Just because you do not get the ones you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling. It's just like baseball cards. I hate defending this game....makes me feel dirty :( |
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12/08/08 8:07:27 AM#130
just like you're not wagering money when buying a lottery ticket. You pay for a piece of paper with numbers on it and that's what you get. Just because you don't get the one you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling. just like you're not wagering money when putting coins in a slot machine. You pay for the appealing light show and and spinning objects and that's what you get. Just because they don't land in the order that you want doesn't make it wagering or gambling. :( |
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12/08/08 9:26:38 AM#131
Originally posted by PreCU They are buying Virtual cards, that are not required to buy to play SWG. They are purchasing cards that have a chance at containing a special card, so they actually bought something...then again it would become an arguement if a virtual item has any value...in which case that would open up another can of worms heh. Its supposed to be a card game that people would play right? and yes SOE added some incentive for people to play the game hopefully which is looking like its backfireing. So if people just buy it for items they may or may not get yeah its a gamble but would it be like gambling in general, that will be up to the states to decide if people wish to push it that far.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." |
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12/08/08 9:50:41 AM#132
no matter the point of view you choose, there is still gambling involved. "Chance" is the key word and you said it. Someone pays for something, there is some sort of chance involved, that means there is gambling involved. You can choose the point of view that they are buying cards, but that is simply ignorant of the entirety of the situation, which involves the chance of getting a special card. It may not be all gambling, but gambling is certainly part of it. It's not like casinos can say that playing slot machines isn't gambling because patrons are purchasing chocolates that they are now offering with every spin. money is exchanged, chance is present, gambling is involved. intentions are irrelevant. If you buy the cards for the cards and don't care about getting any special cards, it's still a situation that involves gambling. Likewise, as I pointed out before, you could play the slot machines solely because you like looking at the flashing lights and spinning objects. It doesn't negate the fact that it's a situation that involves gambling. |
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12/08/08 12:42:27 PM#133
One time...I bought a subway ticket and found $50.00 on the floor, next to my seat. Now ...I couldn't get on the subway without paying...and there is always a "chance" I will find money on a subway car. Is that gambling? |
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12/08/08 12:46:55 PM#134
Originally posted by BarCrow
Is your transit authority advertising the fact that money could be found? -------- "SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor |
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12/08/08 12:56:14 PM#135
Originally posted by Valeran
Is your transit authority advertising the fact that money could be found?
NO..(although the news "advertises" the chance of getting stabbed).....Topps didn't advertise that a Darryl Strawberry rookie card would've been worth $150.00 at some point either.....I think gambling can only be gambling if the committees that control gambling enforce it as such. Until then this "TCG is gambling" argument is B.S ..was there this much furor when SOE did this with the everquest franchise or is it because this is SWG? I don't think there would be so much conflict otherwise. |
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12/08/08 1:11:11 PM#136
Originally posted by BarCrow
NO..(although the news "advertises" the chance of getting stabbed).....Topps didn't advertise that a Darryl Strawberry rookie card would've been worth $150.00 at some point either.....I think gambling can only be gambling if the committees that control gambling enforce it as such. Until then this "TCG is gambling" argument is B.S ..was there this much furor when SOE did this with the everquest franchise or is it because this is SWG? I don't think there would be so much conflict otherwise.
I believe the difference is that the loot cards are obtainable within the MMO via the loot tables of those titles...not so with SWG. You are talking apples and oranges by comparing baseball cards with the SWG TCG however if Topps advertised that the would put a rare rookie card in a current pack they would have to publish the odds of winning by law. -------- "SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor |
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12/08/08 1:52:51 PM#137
Let's not get all silly in the head now folks. This is gambling, plain and simple. Silly to even argue this point. Just go grab a dictionary if that's too complicated.
The question is, is it illegal? Depends where you live. |
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12/08/08 1:56:33 PM#138
Originally posted by BarCrow
NO..(although the news "advertises" the chance of getting stabbed).....Topps didn't advertise that a Darryl Strawberry rookie card would've been worth $150.00 at some point either.....I think gambling can only be gambling if the committees that control gambling enforce it as such. Until then this "TCG is gambling" argument is B.S ..was there this much furor when SOE did this with the everquest franchise or is it because this is SWG? I don't think there would be so much conflict otherwise.
It has nothing to do with the fact that it's SOE or SWG (at least in my case). I like the game and I still play it. Im angry with the TCG because it is yet another in SOE's long line of attempts to fleece the customer instead of fixing and enhancing SWG. It is also, contrary to what some of you here think, in very clear contravention of US and Canadian, state and provincial law. There is conflict because those of us that still play would like to see SOE's seemigly limited resources put into making the game better and not on a (very low) chance of winning exclusive in game content through a blatantly illegal lottery. Im fairly close to cancelling my subs for SWG at this point because I have come to the conclusion that this IS a last ditch attempt to rip off exisitng players. Im not implying the game will be shut down, but at this rate, I dont see it being very popular if they dont do some damage control in the very near future. They dont seem to care about a retail addon (which is seriously needed) as well as fixing the existing game. The only real infusion of new content is via the TCG and Im not interested in gambling real money for in game loot. As many have stated (including myself), most of the stuff is just cosmetic at the moment, but I see that changing as suckers keep buying the cards. Its a real shame that SOE acts like this. They could make plenty of money by making an add on or releaseing chapters for a few bucks with quest lines where you could score some good loot. That way EVERYONE can work towards having good gear. Im not against paying for things, thats the way the world is and SOE is a small fish in a very large pond. I am against gambling for in game items and if you take a look at the SWG forums, you will see that people are plenty pissed off about this. It isnt going to go away and I KNOW Im not the only person pursuing the legal ramifications. In closing I will say that SOE is somewhat of an "aggro magnet" in this case. They dont have a very good past record with their player base and as we all know, mud sticks. Engaging in an activity that attracts negative attention when you are not particularly well regarded isnt very intelligent. Then again, John Smedley is a disgusting waste of space who should have been fired long ago. This man's ineptitude knows no bounds. What do you expect? All 5 of the UKs top banks lost millions last year and yet the CEOs all got 1,000,000 quid in bonuses or more on top of their 7 figure salaries. It seems that the corporate mantra of today is "Reward failure". S
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12/08/08 1:56:51 PM#139
Originally posted by Terranah
like i said before, if the TCG is gambling then a card game like the pokemon card game is gambling too.. but its not, also its not forbidden anywhere so neither will the TCG if u are so sure that its gambling sue them, nothing to lose if you are sure about it ;) in holland (where i live) it would be illegal since gambling is only allowed in certain (state owned) casino's. |
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12/08/08 2:01:47 PM#140
Originally posted by 3on1
like i said before, if the TCG is gambling then a card game like the pokemon card game is gambling too.. but its not, also its not forbidden anywhere so neither will the TCG if u are so sure that its gambling sue them, nothing to lose if you are sure about it ;) in holland (where i live) it would be illegal since gambling is only allowed in certain (state owned) casino's.
Can you just stop posting stuff like this? You're wrong, plain and simple. If you read the gambling laws that ArcAngel posted, it's very clear about the current situation concerning the TCG according to US gambling laws. The differences between "name the real card game" and SOE's TCG have been illustrated and elaborated on ad nauseam but people like you seem on intent on ignoring them in favor of your two line posts about how "it's not gambling". There is no need to sue them. The authorities have been made aware of SOE's nefarious activities. You wont see immediate action, but I can assure you it is being investigated. I'm equally sure that action will be taken against SOE in the near future. S |
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