Originally posted by Tatum

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Originally posted by Tatum
 

What he said.  They're just not immersive or even logical in a massively multiplayer game. 

 

But then again what is a good alternative to provide players with something interesting to do?

I mean I like the idea of random events but those can only go so far.

Other than that we can leave people to make their own reasons for grinding mobs and skills, however contrived they are. Or hope they roleplay enough to enjoy the grind.

 

More player driven content would be a start.  I think there are at least a few MMOs that have done this in one way or another.  Thats not to say that you can't have quests, but I definately don't think they should be the focus of the game, like they are now in most new MMOs.

Please NOT. I will take professional genereated content over amateur generated content any time of the day.

Quests are 100x better than pure mob grinding because they give you reasons to kill different mobs. Plus, with the right scripted events, it can make game play a lot more fun.

And there are a lot more than just kill/collecting quest. What about escort quests (those have a lot of variations), boss kill quests, and little odd ball things with scripting.

I still say Runescape has done it right...

Ya, quests in a MMO can't affect the whole world, but a lot of companies stop there, write them off as a way to introduce more grinding. But really, quests shouldn't affect the main game world anyways. They should affect you. Age of Conan has a "reap and sow" system now, a better developed version of that would help. Quests should affect your characters "prestige". Choices made in the quests should lead to consequences, and different branches of the quests. Kinda like those "choose your own story" books.

We need to quit trying to force the rpg style quest on the MMO world, it doesn't work. Quests should be more dependent on the character, the surroundings, and the timeperiod. I'm not a fan of the "do exactly what the person before you did" either. I guess that falls under the "dynamic quests" opinion. Jumpgate makes a good start there.

What about public quests like WAR introduced? Public quests CAN affect the game world, since its a good chunk of the players working together on them.

And I think the kill/collect quests need to be entirely thrown out, those are just tasks. Well, not entirely, but revamped to make it more "questie"

Really, I think something like 25 or 30 well thought out, intuitive quests would be the perfect number. Done right, the players wont be blazing through them at 5 a hour. The normal quest could take days, the couple hard ones could take weeks. But don't get rid of the grind quests either, make them fun, and availible. Some people like them, and they could help with main quests. Nothing essential, but make them easier to obtain.

Players should NEVER be tied into having to do quests.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Tatum

Originally posted by CactusmanX

Originally posted by Tatum
 

What he said.  They're just not immersive or even logical in a massively multiplayer game. 

 

But then again what is a good alternative to provide players with something interesting to do?

I mean I like the idea of random events but those can only go so far.

Other than that we can leave people to make their own reasons for grinding mobs and skills, however contrived they are. Or hope they roleplay enough to enjoy the grind.

 

More player driven content would be a start.  I think there are at least a few MMOs that have done this in one way or another.  Thats not to say that you can't have quests, but I definately don't think they should be the focus of the game, like they are now in most new MMOs.

 

Please NOT. I will take professional genereated content over amateur generated content any time of the day.

Quests are 100x better than pure mob grinding because they give you reasons to kill different mobs. Plus, with the right scripted events, it can make game play a lot more fun.

And there are a lot more than just kill/collecting quest. What about escort quests (those have a lot of variations), boss kill quests, and little odd ball things with scripting.

 

 

There's a difference between player DRIVEN content and player CREATED content. 

Player created content will always be touchy, unless theres a way to fillter out all of the crap.  Player driven content can be some thing like haviing a player run economy, pvp, and limited resources. 

I'm not going to argue for player created content, but there are some good examples: Never Winter Nights, Morrowind/Oblivion...

Hell, Oblivion was infinately better with some of the top player mods, but those were "overhaul" mods, not quest mods.

There were some quests I really liked in DAoC, but for the most part I HATE quest grinding.

So I started thinking why were there soem quests in DAoC that I really liked? Simple. They were all group based quests. You couldn't finish them without a group, so they weren't really much different than getting together a group and grinding.

Solo play in MMORPGs is not for me. I can't think of anything more boring in an MMORPG than reading NPC dialog and doing quests one after the other solo. I can just play a good single player game if I want to do that, and my actions will change the game world.

Originally posted by Nalestom

I like the way NetDevil is making Jumpgate: Evolution as far as quests go. Well, everything else too, but quests are the topic at hand, so that is what I'm addressing =)

Basically, if I remember correctly, they are making a sort of "template" quest, where you have to escort a NPC (or player!) cargo ship from one star to another to ensure it isnt attacked. However, depending on the ship you have, the cargo ship, the person piloting the cargo ship, and the other players that attack you, every time you do a mission like this, it would be completely different! It's a different ship, a different player, and a different scenario every time, taking the traditional "I've done this quest 10 times before, why won't it change" into "I've done a quest similar to this before, but every situation is different, making it fun.

I think other game developers need to look at this and reconsider the tradition that questing has put itself into.

This template idea still is pretty generic. I mean, you can hid this randomness with different names, different ships, skins, locations or what have you. But people will still see the pattern and will still realize it is just a standard generic escort quest.

What makes quests fun is their non-repetativeness (sp?). The only way to have that is to have a unique hand-designed quest. No "<INSERT NPC NAME> wants you to escort him to <INSERT PLANET NAME>".

You need little twists to the quest to make it non-repetative, like, lets say you are doing an escort quest, suddenly a group of bandits jump in and start fighting you and the escort you are supposed to protect is shooting at you too!

Or maybe another merc comes in and tries to persvade you that he has a sapina on the escort and he wants to arrest him. Will you stick to your contract and attack someone who has legal rights to arrest your escort? Or will you obey the law and stand down?

Or maybe a jelous GF of your escort jumps in and starts making problems. Will you earn some points with her at a cost of your business reputation? or will you attack her in self-defense?

Or maybe your escort suddenly hails you claiming their ship is about to explode and he wants to get on your ship, but your sensors do not detect anything of the sort. Will you risk it and let him onboard? Or will you wait and see what happens?

I dunno about you, but I guess I was spoiled by the few good RPGs like mass effect and fallout. I will no longer enjoy repeatable quests without those little twists to distinguish them from each other. Hiding their generic nature by different names, planets or ship skins doesnt cut it for me anymore :(

to me quests arent even quests in these games anymore ... they should be considered chores. I would rather have a game come with 10 super hard ACTUAL quests that change the game instead of 5000 chores.

a quest to me would be like the original epic quests in EQ1 or the Coldane ring Quest.

I see things like, escort, delivery, go kill x#, are missions/tasks, not quests.

I think stuff like that should be player DRIVEN. Like the contracts in EVE.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

There were some quests I really liked in DAoC, but for the most part I HATE quest grinding.

So I started thinking why were there soem quests in DAoC that I really liked? Simple. They were all group based quests. You couldn't finish them without a group, so they weren't really much different than getting together a group and grinding.

Solo play in MMORPGs is not for me. I can't think of anything more boring in an MMORPG than reading NPC dialog and doing quests one after the other solo. I can just play a good single player game if I want to do that, and my actions will change the game world.

Yea, DAOC (back in the day...) had a totally different feel from current MMOs.  When I went back a few months ago to check it out, the whole modernization of the game was pretty shocking.  Mobs sprinkled in every where, flashing neon signs around the thousands of quest givers, instances...

         Quests are OK but thre is definitely a limit.......Let me take two games for my examples......

1. Saga of Ryzom--You star on a small island that has alot of quests...They teach how to play the game ,how to use various elements within the game......Overall a very good experience, at least for the noob.....Then you go to the mainland....There are very few quests and they are mainly faction quests with little reward for the player.......Alot of people get to the mainland expecting it to be like the first island, it isnt......You have little direction or focus and its basically up to you to figure out what to do.......Some players love this, some hate it and leave.....I was one of the ones that left.......

Now the otehr extreme.....

2.LoTRO- This is an example of where questing is overblown....The entire game is basically nothing but quest after quest after quest........Later on you are barely even rewarded at all for killing anything......but take that pie to Mrs Hobbit and you get a million XP........One day I was on the phone and so I just killed mobs in one spot.....I played for over an hour and a half.....I didnt even make 5 percent XP....My friend, on the other hand, was running fed ex quests and gained 3 levels in that same time (we were both level 35)........

        Quests should be a way to pass time and get things that are handy to have......They should give some XP but not a ridiculous amount......They should teach players how to use things in the game, teach them some history/lore about the game...They should not be a free pass to max level......I saw this in three games I played (EQ2, LoTRO, WoW) and really I burned out on all 3 fairly quickly.......The game that had just a few quests (at least when I played) was Everquest, and I played it for over 5 years.......

I like questing as long as it is questing, and not the way that you actually progress through the game. WoW took questing way to far, "Look at us, we totally removed the grind, now you can just go from quest to quest until you it 50. Hooray for us." This kind of questing has become the new grind, and it is a far less imaginative grind. Before we went out and killed 100 Orcs because it was a good place to hunt with our friends, now we go out and kill 100 Orcs because some guy in town told us to.

Questing in EQ was great. First you actually had to seek out quest givers because they were not marked. And more importantly, you really didnt have to do any quest in EQ if you didnt want to and you could still play fine and advance.

Questing should be about stuff that is good to have but not required to have.
Quests that build faction are great. You arent required to have that faction but it is a benefit to you when you get it.
And i love quests that offer a item as a reward that is cool to have but again not required. I always thought the Mask of the Deciever should have been a quest in EQ. It was a really cool item to have but it really didnt give you anything that you could not live without.

I really agree with you on this.  While I do not hate repetitive quests, I don't usually enjoy them as much.  And I also remember the RS quests from when I was little and could hardly use a computer, and they were pretty good quests, especially for how much I think the game sucked.

Originally posted by safwd

I like questing as long as it is questing, and not the way that you actually progress through the game. WoW took questing way to far, "Look at us, we totally removed the grind, now you can just go from quest to quest until you it 50. Hooray for us." This kind of questing has become the new grind, and it is a far less imaginative grind. Before we went out and killed 100 Orcs because it was a good place to hunt with our friends, now we go out and kill 100 Orcs because some guy in town told us to.

Questing in EQ was great. First you actually had to seek out quest givers because they were not marked. And more importantly, you really didnt have to do any quest in EQ if you didnt want to and you could still play fine and advance.

Questing should be about stuff that is good to have but not required to have.
Quests that build faction are great. You arent required to have that faction but it is a benefit to you when you get it.
And i love quests that offer a item as a reward that is cool to have but again not required. I always thought the Mask of the Deciever should have been a quest in EQ. It was a really cool item to have but it really didnt give you anything that you could not live without.

I dont see WoW questing style as a new grind. Its a supplement to the old grind. Now, you can do mob-grind or quest-grind. Oh and how can i forget instance-grind? So, 3 different types of grinds is better then 1 or 2 types of grind. This way If i get bored of mob-grind, i switch to isntance grind and then wheni get bored with that too - quest grind. And maybe thats why I keep going back to WoW, it bores me less then the rest of MMOs.