Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by dhayes68

I think its clear that the star trek fan-base would want crews. I mean, its kind of what Star Trek is all about.

I've been a Star Trek fan for @ 35 years, and I don't want player crews at all, and don't think they're what Star Trek is about at all either.

That's been part and parcel of this issue from the beginning. A small chunk of Star Trek fandom thinking that they speak for the rest of us.I can speak for myself. Thanks though mate.

 

I specifically used the phrase 'fan base' to indicate I was making a generalization. Not speaking for any individual member.  Obviously we disagree but mashing together the context of Star Trek and MMO (and its the MMO part thats crucial) mulitple player crews for ships is the obvious end result. I'm not saying single player ships in a Star Trek game couldn't be enjoyable or desired, but to my way of thinking about game genres, that would be more of a standalone game with multiplayer, not necessarily an MMO. And that was my ultimate point. More about current trends in MMO's away from what MMO are supposed to be about, rather than in Star Trek.

You know, I've been reading that same phrase from the same people that make the claims that a game(most MMOs nowadays it seems to them) are just sinlge player games that aren't what MMOs were supposed to be.

1.) They aren't single player games. Period. Just because a person isn't forced to play with you doesn't mean the game is any less an MMO. If a game is only playable online then guess what? It's a massive multiplayer online game. Enough with this "it isn't an MMO if it isn't a virtual world where everyone HAS to work together to accomplish anything" tripe. That was how YOU saw it. Not everyone else. For the rest of us it's just a friggin game.You style of game was tried and failed miserably because most people have lives. There is options in this game(like ALL MMOs right now) for you to group up with your buddies and play whatever fantasy you want. If you can guild and group in it, then you can role play. You shouldn't need a game mechanic that forces everyone to play like you want to.

2.) Hate to burst your bubble, but you do not speak for the Trek fanbase. Go to the official website if you think you are. The majority of the people on that board are there because they are fans of Star Trek and want to play an online version of it. All of them(including me) have their own things that they want to see in the game. Nobody will get 100 percent everything they want, but the majority does agree that the core game should be first and foremost the priority. Ship interiors is not a priority. They are nice fluff, nothing more. This website is NOT indictive of what the entire community thinks. It's not even close.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by dhayes68

I think its clear that the star trek fan-base would want crews. I mean, its kind of what Star Trek is all about.

I've been a Star Trek fan for @ 35 years, and I don't want player crews at all, and don't think they're what Star Trek is about at all either.

That's been part and parcel of this issue from the beginning. A small chunk of Star Trek fandom thinking that they speak for the rest of us.I can speak for myself. Thanks though mate.

 

I specifically used the phrase 'fan base' to indicate I was making a generalization. Not speaking for any individual member.  Obviously we disagree but mashing together the context of Star Trek and MMO (and its the MMO part thats crucial) mulitple player crews for ships is the obvious end result. I'm not saying single player ships in a Star Trek game couldn't be enjoyable or desired, but to my way of thinking about game genres, that would be more of a standalone game with multiplayer, not necessarily an MMO. And that was my ultimate point. More about current trends in MMO's away from what MMO are supposed to be about, rather than in Star Trek.

 

You know, I've been reading that same phrase from the same people that make the claims that a game(most MMOs nowadays it seems to them) are just sinlge player games that aren't what MMOs were supposed to be.

 

1.) They aren't single player games. Period. Just because a person isn't forced to play with you doesn't mean the game is any less an MMO. If a game is only playable online then guess what? It's a massive multiplayer online game. Enough with this "it isn't an MMO if it isn't a virtual world where everyone HAS to work together to accomplish anything" tripe. That was how YOU saw it. Not everyone else. For the rest of us it's just a friggin game.You style of game was tried and failed miserably because most people have lives. There is options in this game(like ALL MMOs right now) for you to group up with your buddies and play whatever fantasy you want. If you can guild and group in it, then you can role play. You shouldn't need a game mechanic that forces everyone to play like you want to.

2.) Hate to burst your bubble, but you do not speak for the Trek fanbase. Go to the official website if you think you are. The majority of the people on that board are there because they are fans of Star Trek and want to play an online version of it. All of them(including me) have their own things that they want to see in the game. Nobody will get 100 percent everything they want, but the majority does agree that the core game should be first and foremost the priority. Ship interiors is not a priority. They are nice fluff, nothing more. This website is NOT indictive of what the entire community thinks. It's not even close.

There is a difference between not being forced to group and not being allowed to group at all. A Star Trek game where every player represents a ship crewed by himself may be fun for some people, but as far as representing the IP its just silly.

Didn't mean to get your stick-on vulcan ears all a-quiver.

Originally posted by dhayes68

There is a difference between not being forced to group and not being allowed to group at all. A Star Trek game where every player represents a ship crewed by himself may be fun for some people, but as far as representing the IP its just silly.

Didn't mean to get your stick-on vulcan ears all a-quiver.

How does not having player crews stop players from grouping?

I'll answer. It doesn't at all. In fact it makes certain that every player in the group is having a fun and interesting experience. Instead of only a couple in the group, and the rest doing some mundane task not really knowing what's going on or not being able to feel like they've made an equal contribution.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by dhayes68

I think its clear that the star trek fan-base would want crews. I mean, its kind of what Star Trek is all about.

I've been a Star Trek fan for @ 35 years, and I don't want player crews at all, and don't think they're what Star Trek is about at all either.

That's been part and parcel of this issue from the beginning. A small chunk of Star Trek fandom thinking that they speak for the rest of us.I can speak for myself. Thanks though mate.

 

I specifically used the phrase 'fan base' to indicate I was making a generalization. Not speaking for any individual member.  Obviously we disagree but mashing together the context of Star Trek and MMO (and its the MMO part thats crucial) mulitple player crews for ships is the obvious end result. I'm not saying single player ships in a Star Trek game couldn't be enjoyable or desired, but to my way of thinking about game genres, that would be more of a standalone game with multiplayer, not necessarily an MMO. And that was my ultimate point. More about current trends in MMO's away from what MMO are supposed to be about, rather than in Star Trek.

 

You know, I've been reading that same phrase from the same people that make the claims that a game(most MMOs nowadays it seems to them) are just sinlge player games that aren't what MMOs were supposed to be.

 

1.) They aren't single player games. Period. Just because a person isn't forced to play with you doesn't mean the game is any less an MMO. If a game is only playable online then guess what? It's a massive multiplayer online game. Enough with this "it isn't an MMO if it isn't a virtual world where everyone HAS to work together to accomplish anything" tripe. That was how YOU saw it. Not everyone else. For the rest of us it's just a friggin game.You style of game was tried and failed miserably because most people have lives. There is options in this game(like ALL MMOs right now) for you to group up with your buddies and play whatever fantasy you want. If you can guild and group in it, then you can role play. You shouldn't need a game mechanic that forces everyone to play like you want to.

2.) Hate to burst your bubble, but you do not speak for the Trek fanbase. Go to the official website if you think you are. The majority of the people on that board are there because they are fans of Star Trek and want to play an online version of it. All of them(including me) have their own things that they want to see in the game. Nobody will get 100 percent everything they want, but the majority does agree that the core game should be first and foremost the priority. Ship interiors is not a priority. They are nice fluff, nothing more. This website is NOT indictive of what the entire community thinks. It's not even close.

There is a difference between not being forced to group and not being allowed to group at all. A Star Trek game where every player represents a ship crewed by himself may be fun for some people, but as far as representing the IP its just silly.

Didn't mean to get your stick-on vulcan ears all a-quiver.

Another big fat fail on your part. There will be grouping in this game, it;s just ships grouping together in space and players grouping together on land instead of everyone grouping together on a ship. Just because the grouping isn't exactly what you want doesn't mean it won't be an option in the game. So try another one.
 

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by dhayes68

There is a difference between not being forced to group and not being allowed to group at all. A Star Trek game where every player represents a ship crewed by himself may be fun for some people, but as far as representing the IP its just silly.

Didn't mean to get your stick-on vulcan ears all a-quiver.

How does not having player crews stop players from grouping?

 

I'll answer. It doesn't at all. In fact it makes certain that every player in the group is having a fun and interesting experience. Instead of only a couple in the group, and the rest doing some mundane task not really knowing what's going on or not being able to feel like they've made an equal contribution.

Look I know you and others don't agree with me, but a bunch of captains in ships grouped together as the ONLY option for a star trek mmo is just stupid.  I still think that a star trek mmo should offer multi-player ship crews if only because its star trek. If this wasn't a star trek mmo, I wouldn't think twice about single player ships, hell, I love it in eve, but in star trek, gotta have crews.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by dhayes68

There is a difference between not being forced to group and not being allowed to group at all. A Star Trek game where every player represents a ship crewed by himself may be fun for some people, but as far as representing the IP its just silly.

Didn't mean to get your stick-on vulcan ears all a-quiver.

How does not having player crews stop players from grouping?

 

I'll answer. It doesn't at all. In fact it makes certain that every player in the group is having a fun and interesting experience. Instead of only a couple in the group, and the rest doing some mundane task not really knowing what's going on or not being able to feel like they've made an equal contribution.

 

Look I know you and others don't agree with me, but a bunch of captains in ships grouped together as the ONLY option for a star trek mmo is just stupid.  I still think that a star trek mmo should offer multi-player ship crews if only because its star trek. If this wasn't a star trek mmo, I wouldn't think twice about single player ships, hell, I love it in eve, but in star trek, gotta have crews.

I'd say that making sure that every players has equal opportunity to have fun and participate fully is a very smart move. Condemning newer players to have to be under the thumb of other players, and having their entire game experience dictated by what another player chooses to do, is what's "stupid", not to mention suicide for the game.

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by dhayes68

There is a difference between not being forced to group and not being allowed to group at all. A Star Trek game where every player represents a ship crewed by himself may be fun for some people, but as far as representing the IP its just silly.

Didn't mean to get your stick-on vulcan ears all a-quiver.

How does not having player crews stop players from grouping?

 

I'll answer. It doesn't at all. In fact it makes certain that every player in the group is having a fun and interesting experience. Instead of only a couple in the group, and the rest doing some mundane task not really knowing what's going on or not being able to feel like they've made an equal contribution.

 

Look I know you and others don't agree with me, but a bunch of captains in ships grouped together as the ONLY option for a star trek mmo is just stupid.  I still think that a star trek mmo should offer multi-player ship crews if only because its star trek. If this wasn't a star trek mmo, I wouldn't think twice about single player ships, hell, I love it in eve, but in star trek, gotta have crews.

I'd say that making sure that every players has equal opportunity to have fun and participate fully is a very smart move. Condemning newer players to have to be under the thumb of other players, and having their entire game experience dictated by what another player chooses to do, is what's "stupid", not to mention suicide for the game.

Not only is that the lamest thing I ever heard, its also a sure fire plan for making a game that fails. Go play tic-tac-toe if thats what you want.  You want a game that caters to the most casual, least dedicated player?

Originally posted by dhayes68

   

Not only is that the lamest thing I ever heard, its also a sure fire plan for making a game that fails. Go play tic-tac-toe if thats what you want.  You want a game that caters to the most casual, least dedicated player?

  You're right, Star Trek should be hardcore, it shouldn't be a game that even the most casual gamer can pick up and play...it should have a complex system that takes weeks to learn fully, it should be built so you have to spend months shipping ore, mining, or doing other fetch and carry missions until they're able to do anything in-game.

Oh, right that's been done...EVE online...Star Trek is not Eve Online.

The lamest thing i've ever heard is a so-called gamer who thinks that other gamers shouldn't be able to participate unless they're 'hardcore' and dedicated, so because a gamer and Star Trek fan who wants to play this game but can only afford to give one day a week shouldn't be able to get into the deeper part of the game because they've haven't earned it?

How elitist can one person get? must be a blast grouping up with you.

Nobody said anything about this game 'catering to the casual gamer' but for everybody to have fun and enjoy themselves, there is a difference, if you can't see it then i don't know what to tell you.

Originally posted by TheGrue

Originally posted by dhayes68

   

Not only is that the lamest thing I ever heard, its also a sure fire plan for making a game that fails. Go play tic-tac-toe if thats what you want.  You want a game that caters to the most casual, least dedicated player?

 

  You're right, Star Trek should be hardcore, it shouldn't be a game that even the most casual gamer can pick up and play...it should have a complex system that takes weeks to learn fully, it should be built so you have to spend months shipping ore, mining, or doing other fetch and carry missions until they're able to do anything in-game.

Oh, right that's been done...EVE online...Star Trek is not Eve Online.

The lamest thing i've ever heard is a so-called gamer who thinks that other gamers shouldn't be able to participate unless they're 'hardcore' and dedicated, so because a gamer and Star Trek fan who wants to play this game but can only afford to give one day a week shouldn't be able to get into the deeper part of the game because they've haven't earned it?

How elitist can one person get? must be a blast grouping up with you.

Nobody said anything about this game 'catering to the casual gamer' but for everybody to have fun and enjoy themselves, there is a difference, if you can't see it then i don't know what to tell you.

Where did I say the game should be hardcore to the point where it eliminates anyone but the hardcore gamer? No where. My argument is it shouldn't be so lame and one dimensional as to give every player regardless of level of interest the same opportunity.  Between lame and hardcore is a happy middle.

If you want to make up things I've said just to argue against them, no need to wait for me to post, go ahead and just write what you want.

I apologize, i thought you were insinuating that casual gamers shouldn't be involved in higher-tier aspects of the game, my bad.

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Hagonbok

I'd say that making sure that every players has equal opportunity to have fun and participate fully is a very smart move. Condemning newer players to have to be under the thumb of other players, and having their entire game experience dictated by what another player chooses to do, is what's "stupid", not to mention suicide for the game.

Not only is that the lamest thing I ever heard, its also a sure fire plan for making a game that fails. Go play tic-tac-toe if thats what you want.  You want a game that caters to the most casual, least dedicated player?

What does not making new players have to play the game under the control of some other player have to do with catering to casual ,least dedicated players? I'll answer that for you. Absolutely nothing is what.

Player crew in a mmo has got to be THE most foolish thing I ever heard of. As a feature in a few of the episodic missions maybe, but as a general game play feature it's just too silly a concept for a gaming company to take seriously. The only people that think it is viable are those that have no idea about these games. Simple as that.

There were ... thousands? ... of people in the Cantinas of Star Wars Galaxies who enjoyed nothing more than hanging out and offering the occassional buff. Apparently that's such a horrible idea and couldn't possibly be applied to a ship's crew.  Come to think of it, I don't recall Galaxies lasting much longer after they did away with the social aspects of the game.

And yes, just because there won't be player crewed ships doesn't mean you can't group. There could be Hospital Ships that heal armor ... Stealth ships that sneak around and do lots of damage... Missile boats to shoot from long range ... and Tanking ships to fight. Maybe we could come up with clever names for them like umm ... Cleric, Rogue, Wizard and Fighter just pop into my head. But this game is going to be SOOO different from every other MMO out there ever because its going to have a Star Trek skin ...

... not so much ...

I think the player crew crowd sees in this IP the possibility to really push the genre into something different, something no one has seen before. EVE's already done the single ship, single player, skill based game and they've done it very well.

And I bet the game is live less than 24 months before skills are replaced with 'Iconic Star Trek' classes because people don't want to be bothered with learning the skill system. The PvP crowd will complain that their hospital ship can't fight a cruiser. And the potential that is STO now will be reduced to a ... well ... an NGE.

Originally posted by whpsh

There were ... thousands? ... of people in the Cantinas of Star Wars Galaxies who enjoyed nothing more than hanging out and offering the occassional buff. Apparently that's such a horrible idea and couldn't possibly be applied to a ship's crew.  Come to think of it, I don't recall Galaxies lasting much longer after they did away with the social aspects of the game.

And yes, just because there won't be player crewed ships doesn't mean you can't group. There could be Hospital Ships that heal armor ... Stealth ships that sneak around and do lots of damage... Missile boats to shoot from long range ... and Tanking ships to fight. Maybe we could come up with clever names for them like umm ... Cleric, Rogue, Wizard and Fighter just pop into my head. But this game is going to be SOOO different from every other MMO out there ever because its going to have a Star Trek skin ...

... not so much ...

I think the player crew crowd sees in this IP the possibility to really push the genre into something different, something no one has seen before. EVE's already done the single ship, single player, skill based game and they've done it very well.

And I bet the game is live less than 24 months before skills are replaced with 'Iconic Star Trek' classes because people don't want to be bothered with learning the skill system. The PvP crowd will complain that their hospital ship can't fight a cruiser. And the potential that is STO now will be reduced to a ... well ... an NGE.

You know, you can get everything you want in your text based simming. Why not just stick to that if everyone having the opportunity to have fun and not be controlled by other players all the time bothers you so much? I'm sure there's plenty of masochists you can boss around that still participate. You see what popularity it has though.   Do you honestly think those tiny numbers would sustain a mmo? Nah, you don't think so. In fact you know so. Then again, you have no care about whether the game can succeed do you?You just want the experience of it being around for a few months. Then when they have to shut out the lights because not enough are subscribing you'll just move on to try and ruin the next game n development.

By the way, those thousands of people standing around in cantinas? They were a large part of why people hated SWG at release. They never seemed to want to do anything.  Face it,  mmos aren't going to be glorified chat rooms ever again. Get over it already. It's been how many years since the market spoke and that was clear?

I have more of an Ensign Ro personality, i'm not ready for captainship SIR !

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Coming from and playing the most succesful mmorpg ever designed :

I am not willing to offer my time and fun for a "group". Grouping has to be freely volontary and in MY time frame and time interest.

Im not playing a surrogate NPC for a 14 year old kid yelling at the micro that "HE" is the captain.

My wife gets priority, then my kid and then my mmorpg.

And I still play 3 hours per day on average. And I hope to do it in STO also.

 

Well said. I'm not going to take pay 15 a month to have some dork tell me what to do. Much as I hate to destroy the fantasies of the the SIM fans, that type of game will never have enough subscribers for a developer to spend money on. Any time a game starts to become a job I lose interest.

It's taken me a bit, but I think I've figured it out.

The Anti-crew people are also the same group of people that insist on getting the same rewards for their $15 and 30 minutes of play a week as my $15 and 5 hours of play a week.

A good analogy might be college ... this group of players wants to pay their tuition but are shocked when they get a worse grade than the students who pay the same, but invest all sorts of time and energy.

They have to believe in this or the whole concept of grouping wouldn't be the worst idea in the world. Every MMO requires! grouping for the best equipment in the game. Ever go on a Raid Zorndorf? Welcome to forced grouping. However, to do otherwise, would be to take the very things people are striving for and make them meaningless. NGE Jedi?

To go back to the college example, what's a degree in advanced genetics worth from a school that will print you the degree for a one time fee of $50,000, or you can spread those payments out over a period of four years.

Obviously the value of the college, or in our context, the game, is devalued and becomes worthless.

Unfortunately, since there isn't a price per time model, the 'value' of the player that plays a little is the same that plays alot ... even though the one that plays alot might have 5x or 10x the impact on players joining or staying (or leaving, as the case may be).

It's also unfortunate that, even though the Pro-Crew players have pointed it out several times, that the Anti-Crew folks believe you'd always have to be the peon of some douche ... while still clinging to their stance that grouping in their only little ship is different.

What's the difference between grouping when you want as a Crewmember or grouping when you want as your own ship? As Hagonbak, one of the most ardent Ahabs, pointed out earlier ... there isn't one.

What do you do if the only Borg Raid is being led by a tween screaming into the microphone that 'HE' is the Admiral?

The same thing you'd do if the Captain of your ship was a jerk ... you'd leave and find or make a new group, or you'd just fly off on your own and work on something else.

The Pro-Crew way, Guilds would be able to work together to create something they could ALL be invested in. Like a giant traveling guild hall ... with phasers! The social aspect of the game would be given a place to flourish. New players could be embraced and encased in a HUGE ship from the very first day.

Imagine if your first day in the game, you get transported half-way across the galaxy to a friend's ship whos in the middle of a titanic struggle against a guild enemy ...

... or you get snatched up because you've picked an unusual skill set that not many people play and your first day is spent delving into some unknown nebula in uncharted space.

... or, as the Anti-Crew players would have it ... you're a runabout, flying about the starting area gathering asteroids. You certainly can't group with that Galaxy class that is headed into Klingon space, you wouldn't be a help to them or a hinderance to the Klingons ... and that nebula would burn right through your runabout's shield. Sorry, stay here and grind until you're useful.

I can hear the nay-sayers now: But what would you DO if you were a n00b in a guild ship. Honestly? Who cares! You'd still be making a greater impact and be included more, even if all you did was a mini-game ... or ran around the ship healing other players who got injured at their stations. I guess I just don't see how that could be any less boring than grinding through the starter zones shooting 15 rogue probes that threaten Earth ... but respawn harmlessly again in 25 to 30 seconds.

The Pro-Crew way, the avenue is AVAILABLE, to contribute to a larger group, anywhere in space, from your very first log in.

The Anti-Crew way, you're NEVER worth more than the ship you bring to the table.

Well that sure was a lot of text to make a completely invalid point. Here I'll give a bunch too, except I'll keep it valid and based on truths.

There's going to be plenty for the fleets to do to work together and build relationships. Plenty. You know that. Or if you didn't , again, go read up on the game. You can come back and edit out all that useless stuff and just say "Ok, I was wrong about the game, never mind."

What is there about not wanting to be forced to serve on someone else's ship that has anything to do with not wanting to put time and effort into the game? There is nothing. Players are still going to have to put in the time and effort . In fact with everyone having their own ships, for people to really succeed beyond a more casual point they're going to have to put in more time and effort than if they were just a member of a crew. 

Each ship players get as they progress through the game is going to need outfitting with chosen tech, crew, weaponry, etc.  It's like some of you are thinking that we're going to log into the game for the first time and be captaining a Galaxy or Sovereign class ship.   Players are going to progress through various classes and will have to accomplish what needs to be done to progress, and with every new ship comes new outfittings and such. Fleets are going to have to work together too build the highest classes of ships, and not long after release will have to work together to build their starbases.

Then there's the whole aspect of what's going on in the Neutral Zone to consider. Players, fleets and otherwise, are going to have to work together putting in the time and effort doing competitive PvE and PvP to gain influence, and defend that influence, over planets and strategic locations. Then again, you're probably not even fathoming the implications of this being a faction based game and how that's going to bring players together anyway.

Think about things for a minute will ya? Instead of blindly stumbling and ranting because you want to Star Trek sim the same way you do in text.  You're holding fast to a silly concept that simply wouldn't work  for 99% of the people that would want to play this game. Go ahead and insult that 99% if you want, but just keep in mind how it makes you look ranting for them to force everyone to play the way 1% wants to play, and how easily it is to pass you off as just some loon when you do it.

Nice try with twisting the meaning of what I said too by the way, but sorry, anyone can see "what you did there". Getting in a group to go do some content is totally different from getting forced to get accepted into a crew/fleet to experience the game.  Leaving a group is totally different from leaving a crew/fleet too.

If you don't like that these companies aren't forcing others to play with you, but instead are letting players choose whom they associate with, then too fricken bad for you. I'd say that if it's an issue for you, then clearly you've had problems with people not wanting to play with you in the past, and that's not the developers fault. 

Maybe look at yourself and try and figure out why so many people are avoiding you.

I guess I'll just start at the top ...

"...based on truths"

Please cite for me the survey conducted using a statistically accurate representation of the STO playerbase that includes the question: "Do you want to play my way?" I searched for one, but didn't find it. I did, however, spend a few minutes counting the "for" PC crew posts on the official site. Since, according to you, I only represent 1% of the population, it should be statistically impossible for me to find more than 29.89 posts 'for' PC Crews out of the 2989 total posts (for a total of 299 pages! ... thats 20 more pages of comments than the entire 'general discussion' section). I, in fact, found those 30 'yes' posts within the first 75 posts. That's a whopping 40% .. a far cry from the 1% you indicate.

"wanting to be forced to serve on a ship"

We've all clearly stated time and time again that you wouldn't be forced to serve on a ship, that it would just be an option. I'll use you twice here, if you don't mind: "your holding fast to a silly concept" "Maybe you should look at yourself"

Your second, third and fourth paragraphs clearly support my whole arguement.

You want a game where everyone grinds through levels and is completely insignificant until the end game ... that's WoW in Space ...

You want to force people to be a Captain and that's the only thing they can be.

We'd rather have the option to be a Captain or a Crewman, not be forced one way or the other.

And I've got to ask the obvious question: "Getting in a group to go do some content is totally different from getting forced to get accepted into a crew/fleet to experience the game. Leaving a group is totally different from leaving a crew/fleet too"

... how, exactly, is deciding to get off your own ship and  getting on someone elses, to do some content, completely different than flying next to someone elses ship to do some content?

... how, exactly, is leaving a fleet made up of ships and going your own way in your own ship any different than leaving a Ship's crew and going your own way in your own ship.?

If it's different in the fact that your way you have to grind for months or years before you are deemed 'worthy' enough to join a fleet that is doing something interesting. I'll totally agree with you .... but I've played that game before ... lot's of times ... EVE, WoW, EQ, EQII, hmm ... all of them I guess.

If you mean it's completely different because you can still use mispelled words and brag to all your buddies that you just killed some new girl who was just trying to look at the  nebula, I'd have to agree with you again. Your way does keep all the 'uncool' people out of your Neutral Zone.

My way includes every one in whichever aspect of the game they choose to belong, regardless if they are social or combative, from the very moment they log in to the very second they leave. They can travel, socialize and contribute at the very edges of space ... all within the protection of a much larger ship than they might've ever had the time (or desire) to get on their own.

Your way segregates, creates elitism, and promotes an incessant combat grind by everyone, regardless of whether they want to fight or not.

And if you're an engineer and you can't find any ships that need an engineer, what then? Do you just stand around spamming "engineer in need of work" which is so not Star Trek? You're wasting your time running around trying to find people just so you can enjoy the game and not everybody has hours to spare. Been there and done that on the worst MMO ever made, no thanks.

Originally posted by Hagonbok

Originally posted by dhayes68

Originally posted by Hagonbok

I'd say that making sure that every players has equal opportunity to have fun and participate fully is a very smart move. Condemning newer players to have to be under the thumb of other players, and having their entire game experience dictated by what another player chooses to do, is what's "stupid", not to mention suicide for the game.

Not only is that the lamest thing I ever heard, its also a sure fire plan for making a game that fails. Go play tic-tac-toe if thats what you want.  You want a game that caters to the most casual, least dedicated player?

What does not making new players have to play the game under the control of some other player have to do with catering to casual ,least dedicated players? I'll answer that for you. Absolutely nothing is what.

Player crew in a mmo has got to be THE most foolish thing I ever heard of. As a feature in a few of the episodic missions maybe, but as a general game play feature it's just too silly a concept for a gaming company to take seriously. The only people that think it is viable are those that have no idea about these games. Simple as that.

This is what makes you seem so unreasonable.  I'm not saying it should be forced multiplayer crews and screw you. I've never said it should me one way and thats it. I'm saying offer players the option. I've spelled it out a couple of times already. Ships above a certain class size require a crew. Crew can be either npc's or players. Its real simple.  You're the one who is saying that it should be your way and screw everyone else.