Originally posted by Zetherin

I don't quite understand what this shadowbourne player did wrong. How is saying, "before you go charging in to help why don't you take the time out to ask if its needed?" rude? It seems completely logical to me.  If he didn't need help, and he would lose xp from you lending assistance, it's rude FOR YOU to help.

You must remember that many games have assholes that run around kill-stealing others, and it's not uncommon for someone to respond in a manner that isn't exactly kind when this happens.  It's normal, and it's not necessarily a reflection of "how the person was raised" or any of that shit.

OP, get a grip and stop defacing others on OCC. You decided to play hero, and since you didn't get the response you yearned for, you now deface the player on a forum?

And you call him rude...

It's a judgment call in the moment. Look, if you are fighting a mob and you look like you are in trouble, it seems a bit ridiculous to have to stop and ask. The loss of xp is so minimal in a game where xp oozes out of every pore that if the fighting player put it in perspective then he should at least understand that it was to help.

Now, if you have just started fighting a mob, and someone mows it down, well sure, that is rude on the part of the "helper".

Because then what's going to happen? You are going to pass someone by and they are going to look like you they need help,  you are going to pass by and they are going to give you the "what the heck, you could have helped" speech.

It's situational as it should be. People are just going to have to give a bit on both ends. And in the end, in a story sense, it makes sense to be helping the people on your side fight the "enemy".

But since I've not noticed any loss of xp from someone helping me, I welcome it when I need it. Have some people gone overboard and essentially offered help when I didn't need it? Sure, but I just move on and no harm no foul.

It depends on the player and the game.

Back in the old games kill stealing was a problem and proper ettiquet was to ask first before jumping in and helping otherwise it was view as griefing.

Now in LotR, if I recall, if you jump in and "help" someone, they don't lose any XP so no real harm BUT there are older players who just don't like that because that's how they were "brought up" in MMO's so to speak.

Personally I hate it when someone jumps in on my mob. I played several MMO where that was basically a taunt and a challenge. I have to "tone done" in PvE games where the other player probably doesn't mean anything by it and thinks they are just being helpful vs a game like L2 where the other player is being a d*ckhead and trying to provoke me into a fight.

Originally posted by Torak

It depends on the player and the game.

Back in the old games kill stealing was a problem and proper ettiquet was to ask first before jumping in and helping otherwise it was view as griefing.

Now in LotR, if I recall, if you jump in and "help" someone, they don't lose any XP so no real harm BUT there are older players who just don't like that because that's how they were "brought up" in MMO's so to speak.

Personally I hate it when someone jumps in on my mob. I played several MMO where that was basically a taunt and a challenge. I have to "tone done" in PvE games where the other player probably doesn't mean anything by it and thinks they are just being helpful vs a game like L2 where the other player is being a d*ckhead and trying to provoke me into a fight.

 

 

And that's exactly it. In a game like L2, for the most part, every mob means you are one (lol.. who am I kidding.. .01 after about 4) percent closer to getting your next lvl. Someone messes with your mobs and it's a good ol' fight or even a war.

but games like LOTRO really are more about story and not about pvp competiton in any form.

Problem is that there are a whole lot'o dickheads running around who would like nothing better than to attack everything you attack and laugh while doing it. But I find that though LOTRO has them, it seems that for the most part there are really people who just want to help. And as there isn't any xp loss for the person "in trouble" for the most part it can be taken at face value.

I mean, I have helped many people who were over run by mobs but sometimes I waited a bit too long to see if they were in trouble only to take out the last mob about .5 seconds after he was defeated. Of course I could ask but in reality when you are trying to juggle several mobs, are you really going to take your hands off of everything only to hit "enter" and type "yes please help".

And of course the nice thing about L2 was that you could click to some far off place on the map and then type "help", where in a game like LOTRO the best you can do is hope you are facing in a decent direction, hit autorun and hope that you just don't run into a wall ; )

It's shocking how many people don't understand that even if you buff someone while passing them in LOTRO you take away their experience, you gain NOTHING, that includes healing them, debuffing their mob or attacking it, all you did was grief them, period, no 2 ways around it. You want to save someone? Go find a friend... leave strangers to do what they like, even if it is to die.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mechanics:%22Assist%22_Exp_Penalty

"So, if you're solo and another solo player "assists" you, then you get exactly 50% of the experience you would have normally gotten."

I actually can't stand people helping me that aren't with me. I am about ready t go off next time someone cuts in on my mob. I understand an accidental aoe but I'm not seeing that - I'm seeing people totally oblivious to what they are doing that stand around waiting on a thank you. You don't deserve any thanks for being an ass.

#1 reason the xp loss

Ok, at max level we could all help each other but now - you cut into my xp - we aren't going to be pals afterward.

#2 done at the wrong time

If I am no where near even half morale, GET AWAY, this is my mob and my class - I will do it - just because I don't kill as fast as you expect me to, I am going to be fine.

#3 messes up testing

I can't count how many times tonight I was working on a mob to test my new pet or to see what these vague legendary skill alter and some nimbleboy comes along with his wee bow and just "has" to help me. I didn't ask you to help and you just mess up my testing - thanks, now I have to start over, ass.

#4 groups are the worst

What  makes a group think it's admirable to run past my mob, dot/melee it up on their way thru. Once again - if I don't ask you - don't get involved.

#5 WHAT MAKES YOU THINK SOMEONE NEEDS YOU !!

STAY OUT OF BUSINESS THAT IS NOT YOURS, I WONT THANK YOU AND IM TIRED OF YOUR FLIPPANT ATTITUDE THAT 

I SHOULD BE THANKFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT LETTING ME SOLO, THE THING THAT I HAVE CHOSEN TO DO AT THIS MOMENT.

I decided earlier that the next time someone tags my mob I'll follow them around and tag theirs also. Im really annoyed by this if you can't tell.

Be real happy you don't touch my mob, I may decide to ruin your whole week and get banned :D

In my opinion, is a good idea to ask before you help. Maybe he wanted to beat the mob alone and you ruined his figh. I always ask before I help someone. You should think that, what you see like an Aid, someother may see it as an interrupt.

this points out a problem on pve-designed games. there is no option for revenge. if it were UO, that guy, instead of being rude, would have just started attacking the OP, setting the topic on a much more fair manner.

the other way is also possible, if someone is rude to you, instead of adding him to the "ignore" list, you can pursue and hunt him and then steal his belongings. to me, that is the best way to settle discussions on online games.

WoW, LoTRO, EQ, etc, have not this option, and that means you must bear with idiots without providing any valid tool to counter attack.

Well, I don't know the exact situation but if it looks like it went bad for the dude and you got in and helped him, he is proabably one of the regular 5% morons you meet in every game.

And yes, even if he had it easy he could just have told you to stay away politley, it is not as if you tried to ninja hes loot or something and a few XP isn't really worth a mess anyways.

But always check how the fight is going before try to help anyone.

I too am surprised at how many people in this thread appear to be playing LotrRO and to not realise that attacking another players target or healing a player while they are fighting a mob will cost that player half their XP. It is considered bad etiquette to "help" another player in this way unless it is obvious they are in serious trouble.

Originally posted by reaperuk

I too am surprised at how many people in this thread appear to be playing LotrRO and to not realise that attacking another players target or healing a player while they are fighting a mob will cost that player half their XP. It is considered bad etiquette to "help" another player in this way unless it is obvious they are in serious trouble.

I've been playing LOTRO since beta and did not know this until reading this thread.  It makes logical sense though, curbs the ability to power level people.

Also I can't believe that people care this much about a few lousy XP.   I honestly don't even pay attention to the XP I get from mobs because it is next to nothing in comparison with quest completion XP.  I welcome help any time anywhere in the game.

Edit:  If I'm ever dying and get a tell from a nearby player asking if I need help instead of just helping me.... I will quit.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Torak

It depends on the player and the game.

Back in the old games kill stealing was a problem and proper ettiquet was to ask first before jumping in and helping otherwise it was view as griefing.

Now in LotR, if I recall, if you jump in and "help" someone, they don't lose any XP so no real harm BUT there are older players who just don't like that because that's how they were "brought up" in MMO's so to speak.

Personally I hate it when someone jumps in on my mob. I played several MMO where that was basically a taunt and a challenge. I have to "tone done" in PvE games where the other player probably doesn't mean anything by it and thinks they are just being helpful vs a game like L2 where the other player is being a d*ckhead and trying to provoke me into a fight.

 

 

 

And that's exactly it. In a game like L2, for the most part, every mob means you are one (lol.. who am I kidding.. .01 after about 4) percent closer to getting your next lvl. Someone messes with your mobs and it's a good ol' fight or even a war.

but games like LOTRO really are more about story and not about pvp competiton in any form.

Problem is that there are a whole lot'o dickheads running around who would like nothing better than to attack everything you attack and laugh while doing it. But I find that though LOTRO has them, it seems that for the most part there are really people who just want to help. And as there isn't any xp loss for the person "in trouble" for the most part it can be taken at face value.

I mean, I have helped many people who were over run by mobs but sometimes I waited a bit too long to see if they were in trouble only to take out the last mob about .5 seconds after he was defeated. Of course I could ask but in reality when you are trying to juggle several mobs, are you really going to take your hands off of everything only to hit "enter" and type "yes please help".

And of course the nice thing about L2 was that you could click to some far off place on the map and then type "help", where in a game like LOTRO the best you can do is hope you are facing in a decent direction, hit autorun and hope that you just don't run into a wall ; ) LoL, yeah one of the benefits of that movement system.

Sure I understand, I was just trying to give a reason why the other player got upset.
 

I know with myself, I can get touchy but then I'm like "oh wait, in this game it doesn't matter".

Even old AC and EQ had these problems of kill stealers and such. If you remember when EQII launched that had that "mob lock" system where once you attacked a mob no one could attack that mob at all. I mean NO ONE unless they grouped. I know its different now but back at launch it was a pain because peeps counldn't help no matter how many times you yelled for help.

On the other side in LotR some guy cussed me out backwards and forewards because I DIDN'T help him. Now I will be honest and admit I wasn't even paying attention to the guy, he breezed by and I didn't see what he was doing or where he even was, I was doing my own thing. Well he died and got in the public chat and started hooting about how I just stood there and watched him die. Well I replied in private that I honestly wasn't paying attention BUT he continued to cry about it in the general chat...So all I said was "I didn't realize it was my turn to babysit you".  I was thinking Lord its LotR the death penalty is like nothing, STFU about it already. It was one of those L2 moments I would have hunted the guy down and killed him just for being a weenie.

Anyway, different expectations in different games. In PvE environments I admit I'm a lot less aware of other players around me but I never interfer with anyone unless they ask. You never know how people are going to react.

  Maybe you're new to MMO's and don't understand the unwritten rules of MMO etiquette. If you happen to see somebody fighting a mob whose obviously in control of the fight. It's considered rude to simply rush in and start laying waste to the mob. It's very frustrating when you're enjoying the solo challenge of the mob and the xp rewarded for its defeat, and then along comes Tim nice but dim and ruins that enjoyment for you.

  You may mean well, but you got to realize some people just like to chill and solo for a bit and don't want help. Same as a person born with dwarfism standing at a bus stop wouldn't appreciate people give him a lift up like a child onto the bus steps when the bus arrives. It doesn't hurt to ask if they would like a hand first.
 

Will healing or buffing reduce the persons xp ? or debuffing the mob ??

Originally posted by cujo603

Will healing or buffing reduce the persons xp ? or debuffing the mob ??

All of the above it would seem.

Originally posted by a_name

It's shocking how many people don't understand that even if you buff someone while passing them in LOTRO you take away their experience, you gain NOTHING, that includes healing them, debuffing their mob or attacking it, all you did was grief them, period, no 2 ways around it. You want to save someone? Go find a friend... leave strangers to do what they like, even if it is to die.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mechanics:%22Assist%22_Exp_Penalty

"So, if you're solo and another solo player "assists" you, then you get exactly 50% of the experience you would have normally gotten."

I actually can't stand people helping me that aren't with me. I am about ready t go off next time someone cuts in on my mob. I understand an accidental aoe but I'm not seeing that - I'm seeing people totally oblivious to what they are doing that stand around waiting on a thank you. You don't deserve any thanks for being an ass.

#1 reason the xp loss

Ok, at max level we could all help each other but now - you cut into my xp - we aren't going to be pals afterward.

#2 done at the wrong time

If I am no where near even half morale, GET AWAY, this is my mob and my class - I will do it - just because I don't kill as fast as you expect me to, I am going to be fine.

#3 messes up testing

I can't count how many times tonight I was working on a mob to test my new pet or to see what these vague legendary skill alter and some nimbleboy comes along with his wee bow and just "has" to help me. I didn't ask you to help and you just mess up my testing - thanks, now I have to start over, ass.

#4 groups are the worst

What  makes a group think it's admirable to run past my mob, dot/melee it up on their way thru. Once again - if I don't ask you - don't get involved.

#5 WHAT MAKES YOU THINK SOMEONE NEEDS YOU !!

STAY OUT OF BUSINESS THAT IS NOT YOURS, I WONT THANK YOU AND IM TIRED OF YOUR FLIPPANT ATTITUDE THAT 

I SHOULD BE THANKFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT LETTING ME SOLO, THE THING THAT I HAVE CHOSEN TO DO AT THIS MOMENT.

I decided earlier that the next time someone tags my mob I'll follow them around and tag theirs also. Im really annoyed by this if you can't tell.

Be real happy you don't touch my mob, I may decide to ruin your whole week and get banned :D

I hear you and I can agree with you, but I don't think it get's to me as much as it seems to get to you, maybe lay off of the caffeine a bit or something, remember it's a game not a career, but you still have a good point and this problem isn't just in LOTRO, it happens a lot in other games as well, some people just like to play dense, so they can get away with shit, like the guy who walks passed the ten guard corpse's that I spent twenty minutes stealthing and backstabbing so I could be in a position to take out the last guard and loot the treasure chest safely, only to have him loot it while I fight the last guard no more than a foot from the chest,( happened in WoW last week to me) what he's a blind player or something, didn't see the nine foot troll,(ME!) hacking a way at the guard Next to the treasure chest?

Other Players: Honestly What is wrong with some of you players and don't give me this," you didn't know, we just wanted to help!" crap, every mmorpg I've play allows you to see another players health by a health bar, if it's 1mm for death, then it's a pretty good bet they want help, if it's anything else, ASK or offer to group, refusal means, leave them alone, it's not that big a deal if they die, especially at lower levels, so just move on and do your thing and leave them to theirs.

(Q) Someone remind me here, LOTRO has defence skill, which increase's when you get hit? ,(been a while since I played Lotro)

-OP might have been what he was doing, trying to work up his defence skill.

As for why he was rude, well maybe you weren't the only one who tried to help him out and when you get a lot of helpful players trying to help, it can get a bit much, remember it's his game as well, he is entitled to play it his way, as long as he doesn't interfere with anyone else while he plays his way and no not letting you help, is not counted as him interfering in your game, just a thought.
 

Originally posted by a_name

It's shocking how many people don't understand that even if you buff someone while passing them in LOTRO you take away their experience, you gain NOTHING, that includes healing them, debuffing their mob or attacking it, all you did was grief them, period, no 2 ways around it. You want to save someone? Go find a friend... leave strangers to do what they like, even if it is to die.

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Mechanics:%22Assist%22_Exp_Penalty

"So, if you're solo and another solo player "assists" you, then you get exactly 50% of the experience you would have normally gotten."

I actually can't stand people helping me that aren't with me. I am about ready t go off next time someone cuts in on my mob. I understand an accidental aoe but I'm not seeing that - I'm seeing people totally oblivious to what they are doing that stand around waiting on a thank you. You don't deserve any thanks for being an ass.

#1 reason the xp loss

Ok, at max level we could all help each other but now - you cut into my xp - we aren't going to be pals afterward.

#2 done at the wrong time

If I am no where near even half morale, GET AWAY, this is my mob and my class - I will do it - just because I don't kill as fast as you expect me to, I am going to be fine.

#3 messes up testing

I can't count how many times tonight I was working on a mob to test my new pet or to see what these vague legendary skill alter and some nimbleboy comes along with his wee bow and just "has" to help me. I didn't ask you to help and you just mess up my testing - thanks, now I have to start over, ass.

#4 groups are the worst

What  makes a group think it's admirable to run past my mob, dot/melee it up on their way thru. Once again - if I don't ask you - don't get involved.

#5 WHAT MAKES YOU THINK SOMEONE NEEDS YOU !!

STAY OUT OF BUSINESS THAT IS NOT YOURS, I WONT THANK YOU AND IM TIRED OF YOUR FLIPPANT ATTITUDE THAT 

I SHOULD BE THANKFUL THAT YOU ARE NOT LETTING ME SOLO, THE THING THAT I HAVE CHOSEN TO DO AT THIS MOMENT.

I decided earlier that the next time someone tags my mob I'll follow them around and tag theirs also. Im really annoyed by this if you can't tell.

Be real happy you don't touch my mob, I may decide to ruin your whole week and get banned :D

I don't think it's clear to people because

a, it's not always reliable that that is what happens or

b, it wasn't always that way.

I have had people assist me in the past and I've gotten the full xp. So either something is wrong with their system or it was changed.

But "ok" so given that one mob might get you, what? 178 xp or so... duly noted.

If you are on Brandywine, leave your name and I'll make sure that "I" don't assist you no matter what.

This is one of the reasons I left the first time around. It really knocked me back to get all this abuse for helping someone. Now I just walk on by, stuff 'em.

Hmmm.... I have to admit that reading this thread makes me like this game a lot less.

It had never occurred to me that helping another player took anything away from them. I figured that as long as the mob was tapped by the other player, that it didn't matter if I helped or not. I imagine a lot -- A LOT -- of players do not know this business about the XP. I know I didn't and frankly, I think it's a dumb way to set things up. I much prefer the way WoW handles this: tap it, it's all yours: XP, loot, etc. (or shared with others if you are in a group).

If that kind of a system leaves room for "power leveling" well, then, who cares? I don't give a rip if people want to power level. Let them.

LotRO players should bear in mind that a lot of players may come to LotRO from WoW and think the XP system is the same setup. Evidently, it isn't.

I have gotten far more thanks than complaints when helping others, but this certainly explains the few complaints I have gotten, and makes me a lot less inclined to help random other players. (For the record, I do ask if someone needs help, but not if a battle is underway and looks like it's going badly for the other player.)

This is, imo, a very stupid and counter-social way to handle the xp/mob-fighting issue.

In any case, getting mad at anyone who "helps" you is pretty dumb, because I imagine most people are genuinely trying to help. It's like getting irritated by someone holding a door open for you. Sheesh. Over a few XP? Good grief. Get a life.

Originally posted by tmr819

Hmmm.... I have to admit that reading this thread makes me like this game a lot less.

 

What does this thread have to do with the game?  People like this (on both sides of the debate) can be found in ANY mmo.

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Originally posted by Thradar

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Originally posted by tmr819

Hmmm.... I have to admit that reading this thread makes me like this game a lot less.
 

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What does this thread have to do with the game?  People like this (on both sides of the debate) can be found in ANY mmo.
 

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I should probably clarify what I meant.

This system (the ability to "steal XP" from other players) is what makes me like this game less, because I think it sets players against one another and discourages players from helping one another.

This system of being able to suck away XP -- even from tapped mobs -- is NOT like any other MMO, not like WoW anyway, and I wish Turbine had opted for something better.

100x times worse on wow