Originally posted by Gajari

I don't get it. To me, Darkfall looks amazing and one of the better looking games in development. I don't understand how people think it looks bad.

Though characters do look a bit slow and stiff as they move around, that's my only complaint, but I'll wait and see how it plays out (if it plays out at all.)

You aren't alone.  Majority of people agree with you.  It is just the very vocal minority that want any reason to bash this game because they enjoy being internet tough.

It drives them crazy that DF is comming out and that people are excited about it.

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Trissa

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

 

 

 

96 players in a seamless world , with weather forecasting and planetary movements or just multiplayer maps and instances?Can you build a city in CoD ? You know that in MMORPG chars data get saved on the server and not on the client ? You also know that the server handle any action and for any spell and skill used rather then the client for 50k - 100k people?  you know that even you not online the server has to manage your house placed somewhere  or the guard  you hired ? 

btw we are past to the point here that people who prefer better graphics over  gameplay are idiots

 

Just to clarify because right now people is giving missleading info.

All the text in red have nothing to do with graphics. Graphics are managed in the client program not in the server.  It's true that massive presence of characters in a given area is a difficult situation in the server side  but it has nothing to do with graphics.

There is plenty of information about how MMORPGS work.

Here http://radoff.com/blog/2008/08/22/anatomy-of-an-mmorpg/ is a good place to start.

 

And just to clarify because people like to give misleading info..

Text in green has everything to do with game performance..

 

I agree, text in green does have everything to do with graphics. Even if the data files are stored on the client, the server has to execute said files, from each client- and then register that it has been found, loaded, and is executing. It is the load times that tends to cause lag in larger files, both texture maps and the models themselves, as well as the animation and sound files. Each swing of the sword has to be found/ loaded and executed by the server. Then it has to run the calculations on what exactly that swing did to the environment and you. That is really the easy part, since it is all spreadsheets that is stored on the server. Just thought I would give a more complete picture as to really what happens when you see a player and decide to do something. Now multiply all these things happening, with large files that are in this case likely unoptimized, over thousands of players. This is where you get zoning/instancing- in that the devs try to alleviate server stress by forcing it to only have to calculate small areas of the game world at a time. So all in all, while most of the files themselves might be stored on the client- the actual execution is based from the server, er go the text in green IS correct.

If a game has good graphics it means it has graphics that connects to it's theme very well and makes up for an extension of the gameplay.

Good graphics does not really mean lots of pixels or super advanced textures, but could simply just be that everything "connects" and looks smooth.

Darkfall, from what I've seen in videos isn't very smooth. Characters runs like if they have a fist-full of rocks showed up their #"!@%. Though it's just what we have seen so far, maby in-game it connects in a different way, who knows?

Originally posted by DuraheLL

If a game has good graphics it means it has graphics that connects to it's theme very well and makes up for an extension of the gameplay.

Good graphics does not really mean lots of pixels or super advanced textures, but could simply just be that everything "connects" and looks smooth.

Darkfall, from what I've seen in videos isn't very smooth. Characters runs like if they have a fist-full of rocks showed up their #"!@%. Though it's just what we have seen so far, maby in-game it connects in a different way, who knows?

Funny that you mention it , from what i have seen DarkFall graphics connects perfectly to its theme, dark castles, misty swamps, icy mountains, slow flowing rivers, dark forrests. The tone of the graphics being mostly dark and try to give you more realistic feel about the surroundings..

You could be right about few animations tho , for example the running on the other hand on the ork it looked not bad ...

However MMO developers try (or should try in the case of AoC) to satisfy alot diversely player pc setups and try to let the healer with an average rig loading properly and heal you in time before you in your high end egoshooter rig die and propably your ego get some scratches...

Game developers of games  like CoD know people who buy  and play that game, much likely will have their high end egoshooter  rig up and ready...

Originally posted by Trissa

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

 

 

 

96 players in a seamless world , with weather forecasting and planetary movements or just multiplayer maps and instances?Can you build a city in CoD ? You know that in MMORPG chars data get saved on the server and not on the client ? You also know that the server handle any action and for any spell and skill used rather then the client for 50k - 100k people?  you know that even you not online the server has to manage your house placed somewhere  or the guard  you hired ? 

btw we are past to the point here that people who prefer better graphics over  gameplay are idiots

 

Just to clarify because right now people is giving missleading info.

All the text in red have nothing to do with graphics. Graphics are managed in the client program not in the server.  It's true that massive presence of characters in a given area is a difficult situation in the server side  but it has nothing to do with graphics.

There is plenty of information about how MMORPGS work.

Here http://radoff.com/blog/2008/08/22/anatomy-of-an-mmorpg/ is a good place to start.

btw followed your link to "start about MMOPRG" and look what i found there :

"Differences Between FPS and MMORPG 3D

A lot of the what goes into designing a 3D world is the same between MMORPG and FPS games. However, one big difference is the huge number of models and texture maps that exist within an MMORPG as compared to an FPS game. Although many game computers today have more than a gigabyte of RAM, it’s still a challenge to cache the various models and texture maps that a player sees on their screen. In a given fantasy-themed MMORPG, there might be thousands of weapons and armor pieces that a character might wear, and it needs to be possible to quickly render the various appearances of characters regardless of who you might come across."

And here :

"The servers are the heart of any MMORPG: it is here that all of the rules are interpreted, and all the data on the location and movement of objects is maintained. All of this work must be done within the servers, and not the client, or else unethical players could hack their client software to give them advantages unavailable to others. Most MMORPGs consist of a variety of different servers for providing different parts of the game experience."

Sums it up why you can't have amazing graphics on an MMO seamsless world...and he just talks about weapon, armor and appearences and not the amazing number of objects flooding around the seamless MMO world that need to be stored and quick rendered...

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Trissa

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

 

 

 

96 players in a seamless world , with weather forecasting and planetary movements or just multiplayer maps and instances?Can you build a city in CoD ? You know that in MMORPG chars data get saved on the server and not on the client ? You also know that the server handle any action and for any spell and skill used rather then the client for 50k - 100k people?  you know that even you not online the server has to manage your house placed somewhere  or the guard  you hired ? 

btw we are past to the point here that people who prefer better graphics over  gameplay are idiots

 

Just to clarify because right now people is giving missleading info.

All the text in red have nothing to do with graphics. Graphics are managed in the client program not in the server.  It's true that massive presence of characters in a given area is a difficult situation in the server side  but it has nothing to do with graphics.

There is plenty of information about how MMORPGS work.

Here http://radoff.com/blog/2008/08/22/anatomy-of-an-mmorpg/ is a good place to start.

 

And just to clarify because people like to give misleading info..

Text in green has everything to do with game performance..

 Let you 96 CoD players build a city and grow wheeds and have 50k of offline data of users managed and lets see if they can smoothly battle each other

I’m sorry you get it that way.

1. Let me say that I’m waiting to play Darkfall. And I have hopes it will be a very good game. I said it a lot of times in these boards you can check it very easily.
Not was my intention and still is not to attack Darkfall. I can’t say anything about it, I haven’t played it. Few low quality videos and screenshots are not enough to form my opinion about the visual experience in this game. If you think I’m trying to troll or attack Darkfall or whatever you are wrong. I don’t like misleading anyone.

2. I prefer game play over graphics, may be with some limits. I’ll love to have the opportunity to play again Asheron’s Call 2 and I’m sure Darkfall graphics will be way better than these ones.

3 I made my post because as you can easily see this thread, and not just this one, is full of wrong information about how an MMORPG works, people merge things that have nothing to do (sometimes I doubt about if it is on purpose or not), stand with misconceptions and so. I’m sorry you win my lottery. There is a post following yours full of wrong information. I’m not going to answer it. It’s pointless.

4 I understand that the fanbois of Darkfall (take it in the positive meaning) are tired of trolls coming here to bash his game. But I think the overreactions and the defence going over what is reasonably and true concepts is not the best way to deal with the trolls. Moreover gives to the rest of the MMORPG community the feeling that Darkfall community is not the best. Right now, Darkfall fanbois and trolls are the same thing in the eyes of a lot of people.

All this said, I’m back to the details.

This thread is about graphics and game play. Graphics don’t exist in the servers, objects are just vectors, positions and characteristics. Servers don’t process graphic information. Polygons, textures, particles, animation frames and so are in the client and managed only by the client.
The unique impact that graphics have in the performance of the servers is about the need to deal with the different delays coming from different clients. (When the client is sending the information too late because of bad performance caused by graphics processing) but it’s just an indirect impact that merges with the delay caused by communications and other things normally with bigger impact.
The problem with graphics happens in the client, happens in your computer not in the server. You merged things and this is misleading, sorry to say. That was the meaning of my post, the sentences I put in red were all talking about problems in the server side when we are talking here about graphics.

Yes I agree, high level graphics could compromise the situations of massive game play but only in the client side. Massive game play puts load in the servers, yes, but not due to graphic reasons. You can believe me or not, it’s not my problem.

Edit: i saw your last post too late. Is there any contradiction about what i said? You see graphics in client side not in server side.

Originally posted by Trissa

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Trissa

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

 

 

 

96 players in a seamless world , with weather forecasting and planetary movements or just multiplayer maps and instances?Can you build a city in CoD ? You know that in MMORPG chars data get saved on the server and not on the client ? You also know that the server handle any action and for any spell and skill used rather then the client for 50k - 100k people?  you know that even you not online the server has to manage your house placed somewhere  or the guard  you hired ? 

btw we are past to the point here that people who prefer better graphics over  gameplay are idiots

 

Just to clarify because right now people is giving missleading info.

All the text in red have nothing to do with graphics. Graphics are managed in the client program not in the server.  It's true that massive presence of characters in a given area is a difficult situation in the server side  but it has nothing to do with graphics.

There is plenty of information about how MMORPGS work.

Here http://radoff.com/blog/2008/08/22/anatomy-of-an-mmorpg/ is a good place to start.

 

And just to clarify because people like to give misleading info..

Text in green has everything to do with game performance..

 Let you 96 CoD players build a city and grow wheeds and have 50k of offline data of users managed and lets see if they can smoothly battle each other

 

I’m sorry you get it that way.

1. Let me say that I’m waiting to play Darkfall. And I have hopes it will be a very good game. I said it a lot of times in these boards you can check it very easily.
Not was my intention and still is not to attack Darkfall. I can’t say anything about it, I haven’t played it. Few low quality videos and screenshots are not enough to form my opinion about the visual experience in this game. If you think I’m trying to troll or attack Darkfall or whatever you are wrong. I don’t like misleading anyone.

2. I prefer game play over graphics, may be with some limits. I’ll love to have the opportunity to play again Asheron’s Call 2 and I’m sure Darkfall graphics will be way better than these ones.

3 I made my post because as you can easily see this thread, and not just this one, is full of wrong information about how an MMORPG works, people merge things that have nothing to do (sometimes I doubt about if it is on purpose or not), stand with misconceptions and so. I’m sorry you win my lottery. There is a post following yours full of wrong information. I’m not going to answer it. It’s pointless.

4 I understand that the fanbois of Darkfall (take it in the positive meaning) are tired of trolls coming here to bash his game. But I think the overreactions and the defence going over what is reasonably and true concepts is not the best way to deal with the trolls. Moreover gives to the rest of the MMORPG community the feeling that Darkfall community is not the best. Right now, Darkfall fanbois and trolls are the same thing in the eyes of a lot of people.

All this said, I’m back to the details.

This thread is about graphics and game play. Graphics don’t exist in the servers, objects are just vectors, positions and characteristics. Servers don’t process graphic information. Polygons, textures, particles, animation frames and so are in the client and managed only by the client.
The unique impact that graphics have in the performance of the servers is about the need to deal with the different delays coming from different clients. (When the client is sending the information too late because of bad performance caused by graphics processing) but it’s just an indirect impact that merges with the delay caused by communications and other things normally with bigger impact.
The problem with graphics happens in the client, happens in your computer not in the server. You merged things and this is misleading, sorry to say. That was the meaning of my post, the sentences I put in red were all talking about problems in the server side when we are talking here about graphics.

Yes I agree, high level graphics could compromise the situations of massive game play but only in the client side. Massive game play puts load in the servers, yes, but not due to graphic reasons. You can believe me or not, it’s not my problem.

Edit: i saw your last post too late. Is there any contradiction about what i said? You see graphics in client side not in server side.

 

Well, sorry to have a server mentioned in need for a defense to qualify differences between Call of Duty type of games and DarkFall type of games...

Because you are right about graphic being rendered on the client , what do you think , will it matter if  we are 200 or 2 people on a spot on the server  fighting each other graphic wise ? will it matter  if  Aventurine then has put large complex meshs models or simple models  to render on us ? Will it matter if there 20 armor pieces slots on a char to render  or  just 4 slots ?

Where do you think comes the server into play if it doesn't has any impact on the client graphic wise ?

Originally posted by DarthRaiden

 

Well, sorry to have a server mentioned in need for a defense to qualify differences between Call of Duty type of games and DarkFall type of games...

Because you are right about graphic being rendered on the client , what do you think , will it matter if  we are 200 or 2 people on a spot on the server  fighting each other graphic wise ? will it matter  if  Aventurine then has put large complex meshs models or simple models  to render on us ? Will it matter if there 20 armor pieces slots on a char to render  or  just 4 slots ?

Of course all of it matters. But if it is causing problems or not will depend on several things (in a given span of computer levels), like the skill of the programmers, how far they are pushing the technology and what the game design requires and some more i'm probably missing. I’m sorry but I think is pointless right now to try to get conclusions about how is it going in Darkfall. I don’t see any reason to adopt this defensive position. I have hopes about Darkfall delivering a good compromise.

Where do you think comes the server into play if it doesn't has any impact on the client graphic wise ?

I'm not sure if i understand right your question. As you have yet noticed i'm a non native english speaker and probably i'm missing something. But as far as i know, and you posted some information about it coming from and independent and expert source, really the impact of the server on graphics in the client is probably nule.

I said before that I have hopes on a good compromise game play - graphics in Darkfall. If the compromise is good for someone will be a question of tastes. Not just graphics technology is important about the visual experience. A good artwork, care for the detail,... can make miracles.

I have not seen recently any game that could be comparable to Darkfall in massive game play and delivers a good compromise.

But it was done at least once, really the only one I had experienced and it was 5 years ago. In October 2003 (April 2004 Europe/NA) NCSoft launched Lineage II. The client program was using the Unreal 2 (FPS game launched in 2002) graphic engine the rest was developed by NCSoft.

At that time the visual impact was really amazing comparing it with any other MMORPG around. You can like or not the style but cannot be denied that it was at very high level of quality and polish (always talking about graphics). With this graphic setup Lineage II was able to run really massive sieges. With some problems server side in the first occasions but it was fixed very soon. In the client side you just need to disable some things to play the siege in smooth way, and when the siege finished you got back to the good graphics. If you got a good computer no needs for adjustments but hiding names and it was more for confusion and targeting.
I don't see why the same success can't be attained by a game developed these days.

Then I’m not sure at all that what you and some other people said about the impossibility to have a good game play and good graphics is really true or not. I hope not.
 

Personally never understood people's obsession with graphics. Thats whats wrong with games today... we have all this gamers who arent true "Gamers" and are more along the lines of "Art Appreciaters" Yet the gaming companies make games for them since there are more of them.

A true "Gamer" cares about the gameplay over the gfx. Wow better looking pixels.. who cares??

gameplay.  i game for entertainment,  i go to the Art Gallery to look at pretty pictures

gameplay, gameplay and gameplay. I'm really pissed of "cutie-looking" carebare bullshit with eternal boring gear/level grinding. I'm too busy and have no time to grind, though want to play. Hope the Darkfall will be the game it was promised to be...

Originally posted by Scaredgirl

Graphics or gameplay? Which one is it? You can't have it both ways.

Some people say you can have both. They are wrong. What people consider "good graphics" nowadays is something like what Age of Conan has. The problem is that with todays technology it's just not going to happen. There are no 300vs300 epic battles in AoC, or not even 100vs100. You know why? Because the engine, servers and users computers can't handle it. There would be huge lag and crashes, it would be unplayable.

Seeing people here complain about DF graphics really pisses me off. I've seen many here say how they prefer gameplay over graphic but once we see a new video what is the first thing they complain about? Yes, graphics. This is so dumb.

I do agree with most people that Aventurine needs to work on the animations. I hate it when in the videos all the characters had this "bounce" in their running. Hope they can fix that.

If you want to see what happens when an MMO is all graphics and no gameplay, I suggest you go subscribe to Age of Conan. Sure the game looks pretty but is mostly a boring, instanced, single player game which has no soul. You really want that?

We don't know much about the gameplay in DF but if they can make it fluid and fun, graphics are acceptable. At least for me.

 Well the 2 italians that got to do a short open Beta declared DF graphics beat any game currently out or some such. The DF Fans took this to heart and posted a thread here stating DF's graphics were better then AoC's or LoTRO's, but then the Italian beta testers released their video which IMO doesn't look anywhere as good as AoC's or even LoTRO's but i'm sure their are many fans which will just call anyone that disagrees with their assessment that DF has the best graphics ever as trolls. (as seen in this thread already)
 

  As a general rule I try never to argue with crazy people because well you know they are crazy

Originally posted by originalegg

Originally posted by Gajari

I don't get it. To me, Darkfall looks amazing and one of the better looking games in development. I don't understand how people think it looks bad.

Though characters do look a bit slow and stiff as they move around, that's my only complaint, but I'll wait and see how it plays out (if it plays out at all.)

 

You aren't alone.  Majority of people agree with you.  It is just the very vocal minority that want any reason to bash this game because they enjoy being internet tough.

It drives them crazy that DF is comming out and that people are excited about it.

 Yeah, yeah right, as to coming out how is that Open beta doing anyway, not much time left there as it ends in early december and the game will be launched in what the next 3 weeks? (assuming Aventurine takes time off for the holidays which seems reasonable as they took a 2 week summer vacation before releasing their video in August.)

Originally posted by winter

Originally posted by originalegg

Originally posted by Gajari

I don't get it. To me, Darkfall looks amazing and one of the better looking games in development. I don't understand how people think it looks bad.

Though characters do look a bit slow and stiff as they move around, that's my only complaint, but I'll wait and see how it plays out (if it plays out at all.)

 

You aren't alone.  Majority of people agree with you.  It is just the very vocal minority that want any reason to bash this game because they enjoy being internet tough.

It drives them crazy that DF is comming out and that people are excited about it.

 

 Yeah, yeah right, as to coming out how is that Open beta doing anyway, not much time left there as it ends in early december and the game will be launched in what the next 3 weeks? (assuming Aventurine takes time off for the holidays which seems reasonable as they took a 2 week summer vacation before releasing their video in August.)

who cares it has public beta testers that all thats matters

Originally posted by Scaredgirl

Graphics or gameplay? Which one is it? You can't have it both ways.

Some people say you can have both. They are wrong. What people consider "good graphics" nowadays is something like what Age of Conan has. The problem is that with todays technology it's just not going to happen. There are no 300vs300 epic battles in AoC, or not even 100vs100. You know why? Because the engine, servers and users computers can't handle it. There would be huge lag and crashes, it would be unplayable.

Seeing people here complain about DF graphics really pisses me off. I've seen many here say how they prefer gameplay over graphic but once we see a new video what is the first thing they complain about? Yes, graphics. This is so dumb.

I do agree with most people that Aventurine needs to work on the animations. I hate it when in the videos all the characters had this "bounce" in their running. Hope they can fix that.

If you want to see what happens when an MMO is all graphics and no gameplay, I suggest you go subscribe to Age of Conan. Sure the game looks pretty but is mostly a boring, instanced, single player game which has no soul. You really want that?

We don't know much about the gameplay in DF but if they can make it fluid and fun, graphics are acceptable. At least for me.

Darkfall have both superb grafhics and awesome gameplay:)

http://www.darkfallonline.eu/darkfall-bilder/d/2322-1/orks_09.jpg

Originally posted by Evasia

Darkfall have both superb grafhics and awesome gameplay:)

So you're in the beta then I guess? I wasn't so impressed by the graphics in the movie but off course they will probably use more effects on the final game so it might look better at release. Gameplay I have off course no clue about since I'm not in the beta.

Other games with both great gameplay and graphics will come out next year, Guildwars 2 for one.

I don't see why we can't have both, MMO devs have gotten lazy with the graphics since "Wows graphics isn't so hot so why would we have to spend so much work on it then?".

Originally posted by mcpoopypantz

Personally never understood people's obsession with graphics. Thats whats wrong with games today... we have all this gamers who arent true "Gamers" and are more along the lines of "Art Appreciaters" Yet the gaming companies make games for them since there are more of them.

A true "Gamer" cares about the gameplay over the gfx. Wow better looking pixels.. who cares??

Now this post was pretty much the only one that annoyed me in the entire forum.  "True gamer"?  By your standards, what is a "true" gamer?  Are we talking SlayerS_BoxeR making millions of dollars playing starcraft with APM(actions per minute) well above 500, are we talking hours spent? Number of games played?  Specific games played?

Seriously, I'm no gaming elite, I know that for sure, but I have a solid history of games, I've played through upwards of 75(non-browser based) on the PC alone.  I am active on 18 atm. Does that make me a "true gamer"?  I like graphics, and I like gameplay, I can stand bad gameplay to an extent, and I can stand bad graphics to an extent, does that mean i'm not a "true gamer"?  What games do you play? How many have you played?  How good are you? How FAST are you? Could you play on a professional level?  Does ANY of that make you a "true gamer"? 

*True gamer (related to MMORPG/FPS genre)

True gamer , is not expecting any in game tutorial or any explanation on "what should i do"..

he finds out himself and the write a guide in the forum (if he want to tell others at all)

True gamer like to enter game  open for him to explore  with nothing known beforehand and willing to be part  of a world he don't know their rules but try to find out and to accept them.

True gamer, accepting to get full loot after get defeated and don't blame the game mechanics but try to learn about them better so he can master in game skill  over time.

True gamer know that the the most pretentious game design is that of an open world, open  to  the possibilities but also to the casualties, best realized in sandbox design.

True gamer know that  the very fundamental point in playing an MMO is to share anything with other players. He accepts that online gaming involves others and that his reaching his goals will and should  depend on others also.

Originally posted by Pezhead

Originally posted by mcpoopypantz

Personally never understood people's obsession with graphics. Thats whats wrong with games today... we have all this gamers who arent true "Gamers" and are more along the lines of "Art Appreciaters" Yet the gaming companies make games for them since there are more of them.

A true "Gamer" cares about the gameplay over the gfx. Wow better looking pixels.. who cares??

Now this post was pretty much the only one that annoyed me in the entire forum.  "True gamer"?  By your standards, what is a "true" gamer?  Are we talking SlayerS_BoxeR making millions of dollars playing starcraft with APM(actions per minute) well above 500, are we talking hours spent? Number of games played?  Specific games played?

Seriously, I'm no gaming elite, I know that for sure, but I have a solid history of games, I've played through upwards of 75(non-browser based) on the PC alone.  I am active on 18 atm. Does that make me a "true gamer"?  I like graphics, and I like gameplay, I can stand bad gameplay to an extent, and I can stand bad graphics to an extent, does that mean i'm not a "true gamer"?  What games do you play? How many have you played?  How good are you? How FAST are you? Could you play on a professional level?  Does ANY of that make you a "true gamer"? 

LOL i didnt bother to read your post because I was more or less kidding. I just love when people use terms like "True Gamer" Dont take it to heart kid I was just messing

Also yes... im def a Ture Gamer cuz I liek a challenge now OMGZ WOW EZ MODE.