I was an early beta tester on this...  I will not be trying it out...

They originally had me hooked on their beautiful stories and puzzle games they had early on and I'm thinking IF they make the game like this, it will be wonderful...  Talk about unmanaged expectations...

I can't fight in this system, I don't have the 'skills' for it and beyond that, if I wanted to play a FPS, I'd go play Halo or UT2K4 or something...

Again, what is this fascination with MMOFPSes lately?

It is so amazing to read people's posts in this thread complaining how the combat system is FPS when this genre is RPG, and how they should have learned from Tabula Rasa and known twitch base gaming doesnt belong in MMO's.

All of the people who think this way are clearly retarded and want every game that comes out from here on out to be WoW clones. In my opinion this game is being very very innovative but clearly to others they live for more of the same over and over again.

I really think it all boils down to the fact that 50% or more of the people that play MMO's do not possess actually video game skills I.e Aiming ability via mouse, Manuverability, quick thinking and so on. So when they read about a combat system based on player skill they get all scared and use the excuse "Sounds too weird to me, gonna pass on this one" like at least 5 people already have in this thread.

Lastly, to all the people complaining about getting stuck on Quests 1-3... or even quests 4, 5, 6, 7 you get my point... all I have to say is wow. You might wanna hire a tutor at your local Sylvan learning center because you must have an IQ of around 75. I think IQ should be added to the minimum and recommended requirements on all pc games... then all these retarded couldn't blame the game for their own stupidity.

I myself am looking forward to playing this game, I reached fame level 7 during the EU open beta and It was a lot of fun.

sorry, but you are wrong, I don't want a WoW clone as I think WoW sucks, but in a RPG genre, you shouldn't be using a system which rewards PLAYER ability to the extent that a FPS style of combat does.  Nowhere should the players ability make THAT much difference (some, sure but their reflexes shouldn't be that important to something critical like AIMING.)  Not all of us are as 'quick' as other or are on as fast a connection as others, that is the nice thing about a RPG, you get to pretend you are something else for awhile, something stronger, faster, etc for a short bit, if the limitiations of ones life begin to impede on the world, then you will lose a large section of your possible subscriber base.  You may not like that, but it is true.

Personally, I liked Shadowbane, which was nothing like WoW.  While it took SOME player skill, it was still the abilities of the character (not the player) to hit that were more important.  FPS style of play is not a RPG, sorry but it isn't.  That is my complaint about TCoS.  They have some beautiful ideas (dress to impress, quests that a bit more fuzzy, etc) but the combat system is not one of them, IMO.  I'm just not going to enjoy a game where my slow reflexes are going to lessen the fun factor of a game.   Has nothing to do with intelligence, but rather understanding one's limitations and understanding that ones recreational time is important and how to get the most out of it.

Personally, I hope people do enjoy the game because everyone needs to have some way to enjoy their recreational time, but don't expect me to and to insult me because I don't see gaming the same way as you do, is in poor taste and highly out of line.

Originally posted by Raston

sorry, but you are wrong, I don't want a WoW clone as I think WoW sucks, but in a RPG genre, you shouldn't be using a system which rewards PLAYER ability to the extent that a FPS style of combat does.  Nowhere should the players ability make THAT much difference (some, sure but their reflexes shouldn't be that important to something critical like AIMING.)  Not all of us are as 'quick' as other or are on as fast a connection as others, that is the nice thing about a RPG, you get to pretend you are something else for awhile, something stronger, faster, etc for a short bit, if the limitiations of ones life begin to impede on the world, then you will lose a large section of your possible subscriber base.  You may not like that, but it is true.

Personally, I liked Shadowbane, which was nothing like WoW.  While it took SOME player skill, it was still the abilities of the character (not the player) to hit that were more important.  FPS style of play is not a RPG, sorry but it isn't.  That is my complaint about TCoS.  They have some beautiful ideas (dress to impress, quests that a bit more fuzzy, etc) but the combat system is not one of them, IMO.  I'm just not going to enjoy a game where my slow reflexes are going to lessen the fun factor of a game.   Has nothing to do with intelligence, but rather understanding one's limitations and understanding that ones recreational time is important and how to get the most out of it.

Personally, I hope people do enjoy the game because everyone needs to have some way to enjoy their recreational time, but don't expect me to and to insult me because I don't see gaming the same way as you do, is in poor taste and highly out of line.

I am sorry, but where is this book of rules which says an MMORPG has to use a combat system for old people who apparently can't play video games? Incase you didn't know, but this is a video game, not one of your D&D roleplaying sessions which it is obvious you have been to. Also incase you didn't notice, but if you step outside of RPG's most video games require the player to have skill. Like I said above there is no rule that says if a game has RPG in its title it cannot mesh together other games from other genres.

Its quite laughable that you say that "Nowhere should the players ability make THAT much difference (some, sure but their reflexes shouldn't be that important to something critical like AIMING.)"

Again crawl out from your D&D book and look at the real world. Sports are a perfect example... its all about competition and  individual skill. The only difference between real life sports and video games is that video games can be played in your underwear.

I dont understand how or why you think this game is for you, you state over and over how your apparently "slow".... who's fault is that. Either play more actual video games and build your skill up or stay away from TCOS unless you can live with being a mediocre player at best.

<removed by poster>

But in the end, it doesn't matter as I'm done with this discussion.  You and I have different opinions about games and their purpose and those opinions aren't going to be changes through our banter, and will probably serve more to getting us into trouble than us agreeing.

As I also said above, I hope that TCoS is a success.  People need a game they find enjoyable (even if it isnt' for everyone) if they choose to spend their time in games.  If this is true for you, then I do hope that you have a long, enjoyable time in the game.

But beyond that, perhaps it will break others out of the proverbial WoW box too.

Originally posted by Brone87

 

I am sorry, but where is this book of rules which says an MMORPG has to use a combat system for old people who apparently can't play video games?

Its quite laughable that you say that "Nowhere should the players ability make THAT much difference (some, sure but their reflexes shouldn't be that important to something critical like AIMING.)"

Laughable indeed!  You fail at understanding the concept of  the ROLEplaying part of the RPG.

Again crawl out from your D&D book and look at the real world. Sports are a perfect example... its all about competition and  individual skill. The only difference between real life sports and video games is that video games can be played in your underwear.

If you think the only difference between real life football and Madden Football is that you play it in your underwear you need to get out more.  Go show the nice 260lb Defensive Lineman your "skills" while you wiggle your fingers getting away from him...

Laughable indeed....

A game that uses FPS elements can be great fun.  It's not an RPG though.  As I said previously, the Ranger/Archer character that I am ROLEPLAYING has a lot more skill with the bow he's been using for 20 years of his life, than I do.  I couldn't shoot a moving target with a bow if my life depended on it.  I'd hope that heroic character I'm ROLEplaying would be much better at it though...

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Brone87

 

I am sorry, but where is this book of rules which says an MMORPG has to use a combat system for old people who apparently can't play video games?

Its quite laughable that you say that "Nowhere should the players ability make THAT much difference (some, sure but their reflexes shouldn't be that important to something critical like AIMING.)"

Laughable indeed!  You fail at understanding the concept of  the ROLEplaying part of the RPG.

Clearly you think this is still the 90s when your choices are between Everquest and Ultima Online. However this is the year 2008 and MMORPG has become a term that is used to describe any game which features persistant characters and the support for thousands of users at a single time. Like it or not, if you want to roleplay go play D&D in your mothers basement.

Again crawl out from your D&D book and look at the real world. Sports are a perfect example... its all about competition and  individual skill. The only difference between real life sports and video games is that video games can be played in your underwear.

If you think the only difference between real life football and Madden Football is that you play it in your underwear you need to get out more.  Go show the nice 260lb Defensive Lineman your "skills" while you wiggle your fingers getting away from him...

Laughable indeed....

Clearly this was an example to show that player ability SHOULD make a huge difference in determining the outcome of a PVP fight. My example was that in real life sports individual skill exist and it should as well in video games. Also in no way did I compare real life football to madden your clearly just a moron.

 

A game that uses FPS elements can be great fun.  It's not an RPG though.  As I said previously, the Ranger/Archer character that I am ROLEPLAYING has a lot more skill with the bow he's been using for 20 years of his life, than I do.  I couldn't shoot a moving target with a bow if my life depended on it.  I'd hope that heroic character I'm ROLEplaying would be much better at it though...

 

Im not sure if mommy didn't tell you, but Santa Clause isn't real and neither is your level 20 Ranger/Archer. Again if you wanna roleplay do it in your mothers basement, cause If you come across me in Spellborn I'll send you home crying as you shout "lightining bolt" "lightining bolt" and nothing happens.

 

Originally posted by Brone87

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Brone87

 

Clearly you think this is still the 90s when your choices are between Everquest and Ultima Online. However this is the year 2008 and MMORPG has become a term that is used to describe any game which features persistant characters and the support for thousands of users at a single time. Like it or not, if you want to roleplay go play D&D in your mothers basement.

 

 

OK.. I'm not going to argue with someone who is obviously a kid and who's main point seems to be that Roleplaying is stupid and has no place in an MMORPG...

How do you argue with someone like that?

PS- If you're going to mock a person do yourself a favor and learn how to spell the word before you use it TWICE. 

Hmm, It's a great shame that they went this route with the Quests.

I think it's a step backward in usability and user interface, as I do not enjoy wandering aimlessly looking for NPCs to return quests to, or for quest locations. Especially not when I return to a game after a week or two and have to try to remember everything.

Just as with games before it, all this is going to foster is people building websites with all the quest locations on it. Players will be forced to Alt - Tab out of the game to read these sites to find out where things are.

That's what will happen.

Instead, what they should have done is make these things optional, so a player that does not want to have these quest targets activated can turn it off, and the player that does want them on can leave them on. Everyone gets to play the game the way they want to without bothering anyone else.

It really is a shame, that for a game that seems to be trying to innovate they took such a backward step in usability.

A cat has very fast reflexes but a very small brain, and ultimately it is our brains and intelligence that set us apart in the animal kingdom and establish our supremacy over the planet. 

Games that rely on reflexes are more for people who have attention deficit disorder.  A game that requires tactics and strategy is deeper and ultimately more rewarding.  Atleast for me.

Originally posted by Terranah

A cat has very fast reflexes but a very small brain, and ultimately it is our brains and intelligence that set us apart in the animal kingdom and establish our supremacy over the planet. 

 

Games that rely on reflexes are more for people who have attention deficit disorder.  A game that requires tactics and strategy is deeper and ultimately more rewarding.  Atleast for me.

There seems to be strategy involved in building your skill deck and in using this deck to define your character's role.

You can develop different decks for different situations, hence the Skill, strategy and thought inherent in the combat system.

But yes, it is not a click and forget combat system, apparently, and while many will welcome the more active style of combat some will not.

Yep you are right the skilldeck does take some skill to set out,I wrote a short beta review...

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/212497

In pve you will use the movements to dodge attacks but in pvp it did come down to the players just running in circle's most of the time and not really skillful.

Also once you have your skilldeck as you like it you wont be changing it that often,maybe at lvl 50 once you get alot more skills but again once you settle on a skilldeck I dont see you changing it that often,unless maybe if you are a maybe say a void seer and want to go healing for a certain encounter but that isnt what this game is about,maybe from time to time you will change a spell here and there but for the most part you will settle on a skilldeck.

Originally posted by Gel214th

Originally posted by Terranah

A cat has very fast reflexes but a very small brain, and ultimately it is our brains and intelligence that set us apart in the animal kingdom and establish our supremacy over the planet. 

 

Games that rely on reflexes are more for people who have attention deficit disorder.  A game that requires tactics and strategy is deeper and ultimately more rewarding.  Atleast for me.

There seems to be strategy involved in building your skill deck and in using this deck to define your character's role.

You can develop different decks for different situations, hence the Skill, strategy and thought inherent in the combat system.

But yes, it is not a click and forget combat system, apparently, and while many will welcome the more active style of combat some will not.

 

Yes, it looks to be a blend of both, which is what intrigues me about this game.  And the graphics too.  I will definitely try this game out when we get a NA launch :)

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Brone87

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by Brone87

 

Clearly you think this is still the 90s when your choices are between Everquest and Ultima Online. However this is the year 2008 and MMORPG has become a term that is used to describe any game which features persistant characters and the support for thousands of users at a single time. Like it or not, if you want to roleplay go play D&D in your mothers basement.

 

 

 

OK.. I'm not going to argue with someone who is obviously a kid and who's main point seems to be that Roleplaying is stupid and has no place in an MMORPG...

How do you argue with someone like that?

PS- If you're going to mock a person do yourself a favor and learn how to spell the word before you use it TWICE. 

Against my better judgement, I'll take a stab at this.

Brone87, I believe you are misunderstanding his use of 'roleplay'. He isn't just talking about using roleplay-esque speech in chat, he isn't necessarily 'pretending' to actually be a mythical hero. He  means roleplay in a much broader sense.

In an mmorpg, you play a role, wether you like it or not.

A ranger has weapons suitable to a ranger's 'role'.

A ranger has spell, skills and abilities suitable to the 'role' of a ranger.

A ranger has armor that has stats suitable for enhancing the ranger's 'role'.

A ranger's armor looks like what you would expect from the ranger's 'role'.

You follow quests suitable for the 'role' of a ranger.

Replace ranger with any other roleplaying class. Mages, warriors, priests, etc.

You can use l337 speak all you want in the chat box, no matter how hard you try your toon will still be fullfilling a specific fantasy 'role'.

So, that being said, maybe the discussion should be, should we call all games where you have a massive number of multiple players online 'mmorpgs'? Probably not. His only real point is that the twitch system makes this more of a mmog in a fantasy setting, rather than fullfilling a true fantasy role. Because as he said, if you are playing the role of a ranger, you shouldn't be dependent upon the skills of a lazy suburbanite pressing buttons. No matter how good you are at pressing buttons, it doesn't make you a mythical hero.

And just for your edification; don't fool yourself into thinking that an mmo gamer is any less nerdy than a DnD player in their parents basement. Playing a mmorpg is the same damn thing without actual human contact. Better think twice about trying to win the girl by saying 'I am a hardcore mmorpg player'.

@Brone: Completely out of place. Completely immature response.

Pen-and-Paper D&D (and to an extent even Warhammer) are so completely different than their online version that I could not begin to tell you how ignorant you sound. The former you actually require heavy planning of your toons and the MOST important part of the planning consists on figuring out what ROLE you want your PC to be. There are consequences to each choice you make and sometimes if you're not careful enough you end up with a gimp. And in the case of D&D, for the most part, death of a PC is permanent (regardless of level, riches, skills, etc)-- why don't you try that in a MMORPG ... let's see how 1337 you really are.

Originally posted by Getalife

I love th attitude of people who are so called hardcore TCOS fans. This forum for some reason reminds me of the earlier Saga Of Ryzom forums. Same elitiest attitude. This game is not for you and 'only for niche market' and other blah blah. Ryzom died twice and still no guarantee it will survive third time.

Why do i feel this community will drive a lot of player base away and than kill this game?

Now I get it.... it's ok that pinheads coo about their preschool MMO's thread after thread. However pointing out TCOS won't be hand holding is somehow Elitist?!?

There are plenty who still play those other MMO's despite vulgar language and chuck Noris type nonsense.  I'd bet those who'd be driven away by Elitists wouldn't last more than a month in TCOS anyway.

In the end, the TCOS financial and executive groups decided what  'X number of players' is required to make the game viable as a profitable source of income. If they think they can do it with 100K, thats the number they have to reach. After that number was decided, they (hopefully) made the right decisions in the design of the game aspects to hold that number or greater. If they have enough subs to cover their expenses and pay salaries, it's a success.

A game doesn't have to be a 'WoW killer' to succeed, something a lot of folks seem to not realize. Personally, i didn't care for the game in CB. I'll give it another go when there is a NA release but I don't think it will end up as something I can play long term. I do hope for the sake of the genre/industry that is viable and makes a good go of it.

Originally posted by Digna

In the end, the TCOS financial and executive groups decided what  'X number of players' is required to make the game viable as a profitable source of income. If they think they can do it with 100K, thats the number they have to reach. After that number was decided, they (hopefully) made the right decisions in the design of the game aspects to hold that number or greater. If they have enough subs to cover their expenses and pay salaries, it's a success.

A game doesn't have to be a 'WoW killer' to succeed, something a lot of folks seem to not realize. Personally, i didn't care for the game in CB. I'll give it another go when there is a NA release but I don't think it will end up as something I can play long term. I do hope for the sake of the genre/industry that is viable and makes a good go of it.

Digna,

I'd be surprised if the manage to hold more than 10K subs. The MMO market has changed SO darned much since three years ago (when Spellborn was created) that whatever numbers or projections they made back then are completely meaningless today. The MMO market is very cutthroat nowadays. There's no 3-strikes-you're-out anymore. Now you swing and miss, and you're toast. Retention rates are pretty terrible (with the exception of WoW ... why ... who knows that game blows IMO). Look at AoC one of the most touted MMOs to date ... their subscription numbers halved in less than two months (who knows how low they are right now) ... WAR (I wonder how many of the original 700K subs they still have). There are just too many choices out there.

The *only* people who still defend defend this game tooth-and-nail are those who have been involved with the game in one way or another since the outset and now realize that all the time they spent helping shape the game might go up in smoke. Dare you say anything slightly negative about the game in their forums and you'll get decimated by these folks.

Peace.

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Overall, I think that TCoS is going to be a solid game that will certainly appeal to the many people who have been asking for a game based more on intelligence, tactics and skill than dice rolls and button-pushing

 

OK.. This is the one line that drives me insane.  "Skill" based on button pushing/mouse moving in an RPG.  Sorry, but the Ranger/Archer I'm "ROLE PLAYING" probably has a lot more accuracy with  the bow he's been usiing the last 20 years than I do sitting behind my monitor here..

The more these games trend to Mortal Kombat like fighting systems, the more they stray from their RPG roots...

It could be a real fun game.. and I'm going to give the trial a shot but I really hate to see the editor of mmoRPG.com giving credence to this whole "skill"  concept.  This isn't MMOFPS.com after all..

i don't understand... don't you want to PLAY your character not just watch what your character does... w/e go play EQ and WoW please don't ruin games that stray from their guidelines by carebearing (though yeah the only thing different about this game is its combat system... but its RADICALLY different)