Originally posted by Xtort

 

Warhammer can not compete to the monster that is WoW. It was never intended to compete with WoW in the first place. WAR is an RvR game, 75% of the players are raiders/PvErs. WoW will appeal to them more.

WAR just wants to be the best RvR/PvP game out there. OpenWorld PvP is not that good in WAR. It's the realm vs. realm, being and supporting your realm in every occasion that matters.

WAR is already a very successful game. You don't need 4.5 m NA+Europe plus 6.5m Asian players to be successful. You might just make profits with 1/10 of that number and people playing your game might enjoy what you offer.

I recall the Mythic guys in an interview saying they think Warhammer will have between 2-3 million subscribers in time.  Yes Warhammer was very much intended as a competitor to WoW and frankly every other fantasy MMO.  Mark and Paul were just not stupid enough to come right out and say it after how badly it bit Funcom in the ass.

Warhammer had a successful launch, but it doesn't look like they can hold onto that success at the current rate of things.  Time will tell, but they might not be able to hit their own success mark of 500k subscribers and I it is very plausable they could dip below the 250k break even mark.  Those are the subscriber benchmarks as stated by Mythic, not me.

I'm still not sold on Wintersgrasp yet since I have not caught a battle.  It looks like a step in the right direction and there are some nice PvP changes in the game which is cool by me.  I don't need war to be everywhere to have a good time.  Just so that I can go somewhere and find war is good enough.  

WOW...pfft!!!....Wotlk..big Pfffffft!!!!....Just like BC...haruuumpphhh!!!...nothing new. Same old same old...everything that was in WOW...BC...or Wotlk ....that wasn't there..should be there already. Everything  that is missing from WOW or any expansion (or any other mmo or expansion)...whether it has even been thought of yet...should have been there at launch....with better photo-realistic graphics...pure-orgasmic sound quality..and completely bug-free..no bugs ever..and...and....my computer should spit out $100 bills for every hour...no...every minute I play....and we shouldn't have to pay for the boxed set or expansions or digital downloads or anything...it should all be free..and more fun....much more fun....and options for all grouping or all soloing  simultaneously...WOW ruined mmos....damn Blizzard....hate...spit...bile...(sigh).....hate.

Originally posted by bodypass

 

All equipment like tanks and artillery function only in this zone (although there is also a new Strand BG which uses some equipment). I don't know the mechanics of air planes yet. But I already rode the artillery and tanks. Personal mounts are not allowed in the zone.

I thought I had read that they removed the airplanes while in beta. At least the forums indicate this.

Did Blizzard not inform you?

Originally posted by bodypass

I agree the next MMO from Blizz could be a complete industry killer. The gap with the newer MMO's is staggering... and this is just an expansion on a ... 4 year old game. Imagine what they can do with a new lore.

Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.

So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.

Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:

"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".

My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:

- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.

- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.

- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.

At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW.  It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.

Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).

Originally posted by Xtort

Originally posted by bodypass

I agree the next MMO from Blizz could be a complete industry killer. The gap with the newer MMO's is staggering... and this is just an expansion on a ... 4 year old game. Imagine what they can do with a new lore.

 

Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.

So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.

Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:

"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".

My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:

- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.

- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.

- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.

At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW.  It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.

Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).

You start out reasonable, but then you fall back to just wow-bashing.    Yes, it would be 'nice' if some company could actually pull of a decent pvp game.  The fact is, nobody CAN do it.  Warhammer is a huge flop.. yes, on paper it sounds like RvR and  ' pvp with a purpose'... but in action it is just grinding scenarios.    Lake Wintergrasp >  Teir 4,    BGs>scenarios.     In warhammer, at endgame.. there is exactly ONE scenario that everyone does.  It is the only one that pops.  In WOW, we now have 5 different bgs... and they keep getting more and more intricate.  The mechanisms in Strands (moveable seige weapons etc) are MORE involved than even the teir 4 keeps in Warhammer.

For four years, Blizzard kept the door open for a sandbox game, or a 'pvp' game to come and fill the void. The only respectable game that was released in that time was LotRO, which unfortunatly went after the exact same area as Blizzard already had dominated.  Warhammer and AOC have failed miserably at being the 'pvp' game.   Blizzard has now focused on the pvp side of things.. and just like its impossible for a game to compete on the pve side of things, its now going to be impossible for any game to compete in the pvp side of things.   Blizzard has taken the best parts of DAoC and perfected them, while warhammer took the worst parts of DAoc and WOW.

There is still room for a true sandbox time game, but I just don't see any companies with the resources to develop an AAA title out there.   Bioware seems to be developing a linear, story game, where your progress will be less about your item stats and skills, and more about your quest choices.

The longer time goes on, the less likely there will ever be a sandbox game.   Quest driven games have dominated the market for so long (even back to EQ).  If someone produced a sandbox game, the majority of players would hate it because they'd be asking "where do I go for the next quest hub".  It's hard for players who have experienced nothing but 'bread crumbs' to be given a game like uo, where you literally log in and have 'nothing' to do.

I do agree with you though.  I do wish WOW would work on the 'social' part of the game more.  Housing, guild functionality and just the little RP stuff.   I wish someone at Blizzard would 'notice' how many people go out of their way to collect seasonal clothing and vanity pets (two things with no ingame advantage).

Originally posted by Xtort

Originally posted by bodypass

I agree the next MMO from Blizz could be a complete industry killer. The gap with the newer MMO's is staggering... and this is just an expansion on a ... 4 year old game. Imagine what they can do with a new lore.

 

Ok, let's assume for a second that your wishes are granted. Blizzard's next MMO killed the industry.

So what? What are YOU going to do then? How will you come to forums and brag about it? The people who love that MMO will play it, and the people who does not like it will not play any MMO at all.

Bodypass, whenever you learn this motto, you will be one step closer to being an "Intelligent Customer". And that is:

"Competition improves any product. Consumers benefit the most from a healthy competition".

My claim is that, instead of having WoW with 4.5 m western and 6.5m Asian customers, we have 3 MMOs with 3-4 million subscribers each:

- WoW would have been a better game with challenging Xpacs and better PvP.

- Blizzard would still be making tons of profits as well as the other 2 companies producing the other MMOs.

- Consumers would have the choice to pick whatever suits their playstyle. If you want a casual game, you pick A, if you want an RvR/PvP focused game you pick B, if you want a more social game with well-thought crafting, player houses and all that stuff you pick C.

At the moment WoW is only a good PvE/raiding game. Crafting sucks. PvP sucks. RvR is non existant with some additions of artifical things like LW.  It's becoming less and less challenging to the hardcore players with every Xpac and every day.

Give other games a chance. That's to all of you. Be patient. They will do some things wrong in the first 6 months but when they improve their focus areas (for AoC graphics, guild focus, open world PvP / for WAR RvR) they will be very good alternatives to your WoW. Which is a good thing for everyone (except Blizzard, because they will need to work their ass off to come up with better products).

Xtort, I am fairly sure that everyone understands that competition breeds better products.  Lets not pretend people are completely ignorant of business basics ok?

However the complete dominance of WoW over every other MMO is a result of just about every other MMO failing to compete.  Just look at the list of MMOs, pick one and I bet you can see the flaws of the game right off the bat.  From completely rushed incomplete launches, drastic revamps of the core gameplay, overzelous money grabs at the expense of the players or any other number of collosal business screw ups.

In order for there to be competition the other companies have to at least try to compete.  How many games have not shot themselves in the foot in the last four years with disasterous launches?  The days of people paying a monthly fee just for the privilege of waiting for the possibility a game blossoms are long since dead. 

This is not a problem of people not wanting or knowing about competition.  It is the almost complete lack of competition being offered. As long as gaming companies continue to act like the developers of the late 1990s things will only get worse.  Trust me, people want a new game.  They are actively looking for a game that competes.  You can see that at least a million people were willing to try Conan and Warhammer at their launches.  The fact that they are not sticking around shows those games are not serious competitors.  Warcraft didn't have anywhere close to the momentum these games are offered.  People are ready, but game developers still have not learned the lessons of the past.  

The one funny thing about your rantings about WoWs pvp being bad, yet it is still the most popular PvP mmo on the market.  Yes read that again.  More people play WoW for pvp than play any other game.  How sad is it that a PvE game not only dominates the PvE market, but dominates the PvP market as well.  What does that tell you?

Originally posted by Azrile

 Lake Wintergrasp >  Teir 4,    BGs>scenarios.     In warhammer, at endgame.. there is exactly ONE scenario that everyone does.  It is the only one that pops.  In WOW, we now have 5 different bgs... and they keep getting more and more intricate.  The mechanisms in Strands (moveable seige weapons etc) are MORE involved than even the teir 4 keeps in Warhammer.

So WoW bashing is NOT ok but WAR bashing is ok? According to what? The 11m vs. 700k dilemna? Popularity of a game does not grant quality.

I completely disagree that LW > T4 and BGs > scenarios.

RvR in War is a lot of fun. Go and have a look at Warhammer forums now! Mythic boosted RvR only slightly for a couple of days and people are telling they have had the best fun in any MMO.

I have 2 characters in War: one is Dark Crag and the other is in Skull Throne. They are very popular servers. In the last 3-4 days I have had continuous RvR action for more than 5 hours in both of the servers (different days of course), in T3 and T4.

War scenarios are great. The new Reikland factory is awesome. People do not play only 1 Scenario in any tier right now. That was in the past.

And let me remind you, War has been released only 2 months ago. After 2 months of release of WoW the state of PvP was like this (I was there, so I know):

1. Honor system was not introduced.

2. There were NO BGs.

3. There were NO arenas.

4. People were participating in open world PvP and were trying to capture enemy cities, if you remember. But there was no rewards at all. After honor system was introduced, that is about ~3 months of release, there was the huge Tarren Mill battles.

I had a mage. I was literally destroying 5-10 enemies with only Arcane Explosion. That's all I gotta say for the class balance.

With the 1.1 patch that is within a month, there will be huge class balancing and RvR boost.

No other game can be compared to WAR's RvR option after that. I can bet on anything you want.

Sure the WAR PvE/raiding will not be as good as WoW's. Gear progress will still be more important in WoW compared to any other game. I am not bashing WoW. I am telling what I think. If I were a PvEr by heart, I would be playing WoW instead.

But for PvP/RvR WoW is boring, very boring. It can not compete with the RvR of WAR and the combat/open PvP of AoC.

But yeah, if you are having fun in WoW, good for you. I respect that. But for a true PvPer, Guild Wars / Eve/ WAR / AoC (I don't knoe the latest state of AoC but looks promising now) are much better games.

Originally posted by Xtort 

With the 1.1 patch that is within a month, there will be huge class balancing and RvR boost.

No other game can be compared to WAR's RvR option after that. I can bet on anything you want.

Sure the WAR PvE/raiding will not be as good as WoW's. Gear progress will still be more important in WoW compared to any other game. I am not bashing WoW. I am telling what I think. If I were a PvEr by heart, I would be playing WoW instead.

The problem as I see it is that Mythic has not gotten RvR/Scenarios right yet.  People are already complaining about how bored they are of the scenarios [yes the same one pops over and over and over] and there is a problem with RvR where people are opting to not participate.

There is no guarentee that Mythic will get it right with patch 1.1.    While I am impressed with Mythics responses and ability to identify the problem, they have yet been able to deliver.  Patch 1.1 sounds great on paper, but there are no details yet.  Just promises and I've seen far to many devs make promises of great things to come and never deliver. 

LOL at the "true PvPer" comment.

A little side comment:

From all these people listing before us only Xtort doesn't agree that he new expansion kind of rocks in the new PvP of WotLK.

But ... he's also the one who never even tried WotLK and Strand and Wintergrasp. He has no idea.

If I were in love with a game - like he is with War  - I certainly would defend that game also on its merits. Grzt to him for doing it  even on a Wow forum. But the fact remains that Blizzard this time did what TBC did NOT do, raising the standards in the original game for most players. Zone design, quest design, phasing (I was surprised yesterday), in games cinematics and yes PvP hardware (tanks, fortresses, siege engines,....) we didn't have before.

Wow PvP mechanics are extremely good at the moment and range from arena, to 5 BG's and a world PvP zone that are complementary and Blizzard ensures with tricks like gear .... "bound on account", everyone will play it. PvP fighting was always smooth in Wow, now they added more hardware to fight with.

------------

On phasing guys, we haven't seen the end yet: it is far more than the 5 minutes shift when you step in "another dimension". I won't spoil the things you still need to find out. Just let me say: continue to do those longer quest lines.

That's why I said in one of those post above: imagine what Blizzard will do in a new MMO, because they will start out with those techniques, no doubt. If they can do ... this with a 4 year old game, imagine where they can go from here in a new World of .... X within 3 years time. (whatever the title).

This is NO longer the old vanilla raiding game Wow. Those who play it feel it in their toes.

DAMN! DAMN! DAMN!

STOP POSTING POSITIVE THREADS ABOUT WoW ALREADY!

Seriously, you're making me jones like an ex-junie watching Blow, between all these praise threads for Blizzard and my friend showing me his DK the other night you guys are going to make me bust out the CC again and give Blizz more of my hard earned money!

STOP IT!

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

LOL at the "true PvPer" comment.

What is funny about the true PvPer thingie? I have seen tons of guilds/players that are searching for a good PvP game because they are hardcore and WoW can never respond their needs.

Guild wars is a PvP game. It has sold more than 4 million copies.

Eve is a PvP game and a very complex+challenging one.

AoC and WAR are PvP games. AoC is good in open world PvP and WAR focuses on RvR elements.

What does WoW focus? PvE/raiding/grinding/gear...

And you say there are no games on the market even though there is a demand for a better game. How so? Most of the WoW players even did not hear about any other MMO out there. The other MMO producers does not even have 1/4 the budget of Blizzard. Yet Blizzard comes up with crappy expansion that brings nothing new to the table for $40, after all of the profits for 4 years.

Originally posted by bodypass

If I were in love with a game - like he is with War  - I certainly would defend that game also on its merits. Grzt to him for doing it  even on a Wow forum. But the fact remains that Blizzard this time did what TBC did NOT do, raising the standards in the original game for most players. Zone design, quest design, phasing (I was surprised yesterday), in games cinematics and yes PvP hardware (tanks, fortresses, siege engines,....) we didn't have before.

 

First of all, I am not in love with any MMO out there. Never was, never will be.

I have played WoW for 1.5 years. After I realized that every 2-3 months my gear was recycling in order for me to be competitive, with all of the cookie cutter class builds, I have decided to quit. Now what has changed ever since that I should return to the game? I see no reason whatsoever.

I have played AoC, PotBS, Guild Wars, Eve, Fury and lastly WAR after WoW.

I have had very good times with all of these games, including the first 3-4 months of WoW.

I am not a fan of any game, because I find it extremely stupid to get stuck to a game and become an advocate for that game :) When I don't have any fun from WAR, I will simply move on. I am currently having lots of fun with WAR, although it has tons of things that needs to be changed. It has a great potential and I believe Mythic will make this game a very good #2 on the market (after WoW) for years. It is already #2, and it will continue to be a very good alternative for people who love PvP/RvR instead of raiding.

I am not bashing WoW. Why would I bash WoW? I have played it for 1.5 years. I respect the people who play it. But defending/advocating an MMO like it was the best thing that came to earth after bread and butter is not my cup of tea - unless they pay me of course :) 

Originally posted by Xtort

 

elements.

What does WoW focus? PvE/raiding/grinding/gear...

And you say there are no games on the market even though there is a demand for a better game. How so? Most of the WoW players even did not hear about any other MMO out there. The other MMO producers does not even have 1/4 the budget of Blizzard. Yet Blizzard comes up with crappy expansion that brings nothing new to the table for $40, after all of the profits for 4 years.

WotLK is heavy on PvP mate, EVERY reviewer said it on the web.

And you didn't even play it to compare.

The other red line I agree with, make it 10 times the money. And it shows boy it shows.

The Keeps in WotLK fall in rumbled walls and collapsing gates with defenders and atteckers that battle each other - each with their own made tanks - in the inside and outside of the tiers of the Keep in LW.

No use to battle this. The longer WotLK wlll gets played, the more people will witness Wintergrasp.

Had today a discussion at our Warhammer miniatures club. 3 began playing War, a 4th bought it two weeks ago.

They (me included) all stopped. Everyone now plays in WotLK and everyone agreed the new PvP in Wow is fantastic. The guys were all over the place discussing the assault and defense tactics with those tanks.

.... And this in a Warhammer TT club !

Originally posted by bodypass

For those Wow haters wanting Lake Wintergrasp to fail....

Though luck;

the genious gurus of Blizzard found a way to make the open world PvP of Lake W for ever to last in attracting players at maximum level.

"Items bound on account": you can earn PvP gear for every character you want to boost in the open world PvP.

Incredible innovative idea and a new addition to the already succesful system of PVE gear badges.

http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/11/24/wrath-101-heirloom-items-and-how-to-get-them/

Read the second part, because the first part is about the same system but for PVE gear.

"....there are daily quests in Lake Wintergrasp that you can do while you're fighting to get your faction the Essence of Wintergrasp buff. Wowhead has a full listing of those quests for both factions if you want to hunt them down....."
 

So I guess "empty world PvP zones" in old Wow (pre WotLK)  will be a history of the past in a few weeks when everyone will be 80.

10/10

And then still some say Blizz is not innovative.

Have fun all !!!!

Kinda ironic how you're always here posting gibberish on mmorpg.com instead of actually playing WoW? Is WotLK really that bad??

Originally posted by Xtort

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

LOL at the "true PvPer" comment.

 

What is funny about the true PvPer thingie? I have seen tons of guilds/players that are searching for a good PvP game because they are hardcore and WoW can never respond their needs.

Guild wars is a PvP game. It has sold more than 4 million copies.

Eve is a PvP game and a very complex+challenging one.

AoC and WAR are PvP games. AoC is good in open world PvP and WAR focuses on RvR elements.

What does WoW focus? PvE/raiding/grinding/gear...

And you say there are no games on the market even though there is a demand for a better game. How so? Most of the WoW players even did not hear about any other MMO out there. The other MMO producers does not even have 1/4 the budget of Blizzard. Yet Blizzard comes up with crappy expansion that brings nothing new to the table for $40, after all of the profits for 4 years.

I just laugh when people try to pretend they are some sort of upper crust of players by saying things like true pvpers. 

Also, I didn't say there were no PvP games on the market and to pretend that people don't know about them is just fooling yourself.  There are plenty of PvP games out and some have sold millions of copies.  What I said was that far more people chose the PvP in WoW even though there are all those other PvP games.  That says something about those other PvP games when a PvE game has more attractive PvP to partake in.  

Plenty of people have tried those other PvP MMOs and I think the masses that have left speak volumes more than anything you want to whine about.  

They should have made their designers pickup a discount copy of DAOC and rip off everything they could.. this is just pathetic.

1. Forts/keeps (claimable with benefits to guilds)
2. Control of the forts leads to high profit dungeon control
3. Non-gear advancement system
4. Realm wide large benefits for capturing "relics"

Then start ripping stuff from WAR. Zone control, push map like world design..

They are basically trying to convince people that WOTLK is an alternative to WAR. Should just stick to making more pve bosses.

"I've never played the expansion... the game just keeps getting exponentially worse..."

There it is... the essence of WoW hatred with no information.