there's an Oblivion online somewhere in Beta stage. Don't know how many people it can take though..

Originally posted by Ravanos

people don't want persistant worlds they want theme parks, they want single player games where they can play by themselves while seeing chat scroll across thier screen.

Sadly, this is correct, the WoW kiddies, who never played any GOOD MMOs, and probably never will, because all the devs are trying to schoop up their subscriptions by creating more and more linear, shallow, solo friendly, noob friendly, and heavily zoned/instanced worlds. WoW being the king of this category. 

Sadly, for us REAL MMORPG players, we'll have to wait. Perhaps Darkfall, but if not that, then its back to waiting like we've been doing since 2004. 

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Ravanos

people don't want persistant worlds they want theme parks, they want single player games where they can play by themselves while seeing chat scroll across thier screen.

Sadly, this is correct, the WoW kiddies, who never played any GOOD MMOs, and probably never will, because all the devs are trying to schoop up their subscriptions by creating more and more linear, shallow, solo friendly, noob friendly, and heavily zoned/instanced worlds. WoW being the king of this category. 

 

Sadly, for us REAL MMORPG players, we'll have to wait. Perhaps Darkfall, but if not that, then its back to waiting like we've been doing since 2004. 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but last time I checked you could always get together with other people and cooperate in WoW to do PvE or PvP.

I'm not sure if I've played this version of WoW where you can't cooperate and interact with other people and the only interaction with others is a chat room.

Originally posted by invsblmn

I played vanilla Oblivion when it first came out. It was fun, initially, but got stale quick and I never finished it. The leveling system and non-static world was a major facepalm for me and for a lot of other people.

Then I discovered WoW. Uh, yeah. Got hooked and became depressed at how addicted I was to something that was so pointless. It is the only game that I hate with a truly abiding passion. It's like after a break-up, when what you think is deep love and passion suddenly turns into fury and abiding hatred. Yeah, that was me and WoW.

Tried WAR for a bit. Hugely disappointing.

So I returned to Oblivion after discovering this FCOM mod that people were talking about. If you haven't heard about it, google it.

I've played a lot of games in my short life, but I think Oblivion-FCOM is the greatest of them all. In my opinion, it's a completely different monster from vanilla. It's almost as if vanilla Oblivion were a level editor and FCOM the game itself.

In short, FCOM achieves total immersion inside a universe in which you are not necessarily the center, the same kind of immersion that MMOs try to go for but have fallen short (at least this generation). We are all waiting for the next-gen MMO that it is truly revolutionary in sandbox gameplay and not necessarily graphics. What we are waiting for is an Oblivion-style MMO.

In my book, the history of computer gaming began with Pong and reached its current heights with FCOM Beta 9.9.

(N.B. Let's pretend that GTA 4 doesn't exist and is not being released for PC on December 2 and that I won't be playing it. Uh, right).

I liked both Daggerfall and Morrowwind better when they came. But sure, I don't mind that the rumours talk about a Elder scrolls MMO.

There are a few solo games that have features that would be good in a MMO, the Elder scroll serie is one of those (So are Neverwinter nights, the Stronghold series (that is how I want to build my guildhall, a big player designed castle and a village for it), the Suikoden games (the NPC there are really good and would be nice in a MMO).). Maybe some things from old dungeon hack games like Eye of the beholder also.

Originally posted by lkavadas

Originally posted by Rollotamasi

While I think the last 2 elder scrolls games are pretty good one thing kept me from REALLY enjoying them.  I found the combat mind numblingly boring,

LOL, that's because RPG combat blows.

Dude I've seen you post before you prefer FPS style combat yes? Oblivion is FPS style combat. Not traditional RPG style.

---

Originally posted by invsblmn
I played vanilla Oblivion when it first came out. It was fun, initially, but got stale quick and I never finished it. The leveling system and non-static world was a major facepalm for me and for a lot of other people.
Then I discovered WoW. Uh, yeah. Got hooked and became depressed at how addicted I was to something that was so pointless. It is the only game that I hate with a truly abiding passion. It's like after a break-up, when what you think is deep love and passion suddenly turns into fury and abiding hatred. Yeah, that was me and WoW.
Tried WAR for a bit. Hugely disappointing.
So I returned to Oblivion after discovering this FCOM mod that people were talking about. If you haven't heard about it, google it.
I've played a lot of games in my short life, but I think Oblivion-FCOM is the greatest of them all. In my opinion, it's a completely different monster from vanilla. It's almost as if vanilla Oblivion were a level editor and FCOM the game itself.
In short, FCOM achieves total immersion inside a universe in which you are not necessarily the center, the same kind of immersion that MMOs try to go for but have fallen short (at least this generation). We are all waiting for the next-gen MMO that it is truly revolutionary in sandbox gameplay and not necessarily graphics. What we are waiting for is an Oblivion-style MMO.
In my book, the history of computer gaming began with Pong and reached its current heights with FCOM Beta 9.9.
(N.B. Let's pretend that GTA 4 doesn't exist and is not being released for PC on December 2 and that I won't be playing it. Uh, right).

---

So your solution for the lack of a "great" MMO is to play an RPG? I do believe that is just like telling a FPS player to play puzzle games. Quite two different genres, most people don't play MMOs for being immersed or the center but because they can play with or against friends and large groups of people; be social if you will.

Certainly looks like quite a good mod, now if they do something like this for Fallout 3...

Originally posted by invsblmn

In short, FCOM achieves total immersion inside a universe in which you are not necessarily the center, the same kind of immersion that MMOs try to go for but have fallen short (at least this generation). We are all waiting for the next-gen MMO that it is truly revolutionary in sandbox gameplay and not necessarily graphics. What we are waiting for is an Oblivion-style MMO.

In my book, the history of computer gaming began with Pong and reached its current heights with FCOM Beta 9.9.

 

Nonsense. EVE has it all, and it exists today.  Thread over.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Nonsense. EVE has it all, and it exists today.  Thread over.

Actually, it will be intresting to see how those Icelandic dudes will handle World of darkness online, If they go their own way with a leveless system there too, we could have a true winner.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by invsblmn

In short, FCOM achieves total immersion inside a universe in which you are not necessarily the center, the same kind of immersion that MMOs try to go for but have fallen short (at least this generation). We are all waiting for the next-gen MMO that it is truly revolutionary in sandbox gameplay and not necessarily graphics. What we are waiting for is an Oblivion-style MMO.

In my book, the history of computer gaming began with Pong and reached its current heights with FCOM Beta 9.9.

 

Nonsense. EVE has it all, and it exists today.  Thread over.

god i want to play EVE so bad but i dont know if i could handle just being a ship. (and yes i know they will have some outside the ship stuff coming out like walking around a space station and shopping for cloths or some other stuff)

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Ravanos

people don't want persistant worlds they want theme parks, they want single player games where they can play by themselves while seeing chat scroll across thier screen.

Sadly, this is correct, the WoW kiddies, who never played any GOOD MMOs, and probably never will, because all the devs are trying to schoop up their subscriptions by creating more and more linear, shallow, solo friendly, noob friendly, and heavily zoned/instanced worlds. WoW being the king of this category. 

 

Sadly, for us REAL MMORPG players, we'll have to wait. Perhaps Darkfall, but if not that, then its back to waiting like we've been doing since 2004. 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but last time I checked you could always get together with other people and cooperate in WoW to do PvE or PvP.

I'm not sure if I've played this version of WoW where you can't cooperate and interact with other people and the only interaction with others is a chat room.

I never said you couldn't "cooperate to do PvE". 

But to someone who never played the older games, I'm afraid it will be very difficult to explain what you are missing. You can say thats just a cheap way to get out of an argument, whatever, its still true. Around 2004-5, games stopped being about community. There was a large shift for games to be done mostly by yourself 30-40 minutes of playtime a day. 

Older MMOs, the world was harsher, as were the penalties. The quests didn't tell you exactly where to go, and you never knew if an NPC had one unless you talked to them. You didn't know the reward, there were a lot less of them, and hardly ANY of them gave you massive amounts of XP, and they weren't the ONLY way to level up. 

The harsher evironment, the lack of massive amounts of online help sites, the lack of GPS tracking map, the lack of funneled zones, or predetermined paths to take, made the game have a whole lot more freedom, and a whole lot more punishing if you screwed up. Communities were built around HELPING eachother. And..you know, I just can't really explain it. 

WoW is a heavy noob friendly, no penalty, empty and shallow world filled with "quests" to level you up without any real effort, and where the only time you work together is when theres a quest with a boss at the end of it that you can't handle yourself. 

Originally posted by Ravanos

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by invsblmn

In short, FCOM achieves total immersion inside a universe in which you are not necessarily the center, the same kind of immersion that MMOs try to go for but have fallen short (at least this generation). We are all waiting for the next-gen MMO that it is truly revolutionary in sandbox gameplay and not necessarily graphics. What we are waiting for is an Oblivion-style MMO.

In my book, the history of computer gaming began with Pong and reached its current heights with FCOM Beta 9.9.

 

Nonsense. EVE has it all, and it exists today.  Thread over.

 

god i want to play EVE so bad but i dont know if i could handle just being a ship. (and yes i know they will have some outside the ship stuff coming out like walking around a space station and shopping for cloths or some other stuff)

Thats the cool thing about it. I think the lack of walking avatars helped forced the devs to think out of the box and come up with fresh ideas

Developers that know how ................Bethesda, KOEI.

Originally posted by Dark_Mage54

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by invsblmn

In short, FCOM achieves total immersion inside a universe in which you are not necessarily the center, the same kind of immersion that MMOs try to go for but have fallen short (at least this generation). We are all waiting for the next-gen MMO that it is truly revolutionary in sandbox gameplay and not necessarily graphics. What we are waiting for is an Oblivion-style MMO.

 

 

I want a MMORPG where grouping is important, and where players can work together to change the game world.

I"m not so sure that's what you are describing.

 

That would be great, in theory, but having played EQ in the early years when it was awesome. i dont think id like to spend 75% of my time looking for a qroup to get 15% of my level a day again. (i was a cleric too!)

I remember those days and i was a Ranger (solo) at that was way to much fun. Items (equipment) People meant something, Now mmo games are trashed.

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Aeroangel

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Ravanos

people don't want persistant worlds they want theme parks, they want single player games where they can play by themselves while seeing chat scroll across thier screen.

Sadly, this is correct, the WoW kiddies, who never played any GOOD MMOs, and probably never will, because all the devs are trying to schoop up their subscriptions by creating more and more linear, shallow, solo friendly, noob friendly, and heavily zoned/instanced worlds. WoW being the king of this category. 

 

Sadly, for us REAL MMORPG players, we'll have to wait. Perhaps Darkfall, but if not that, then its back to waiting like we've been doing since 2004. 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but last time I checked you could always get together with other people and cooperate in WoW to do PvE or PvP.

I'm not sure if I've played this version of WoW where you can't cooperate and interact with other people and the only interaction with others is a chat room.

I never said you couldn't "cooperate to do PvE". 

But to someone who never played the older games, I'm afraid it will be very difficult to explain what you are missing. You can say thats just a cheap way to get out of an argument, whatever, its still true. Around 2004-5, games stopped being about community. There was a large shift for games to be done mostly by yourself 30-40 minutes of playtime a day. 

Older MMOs, the world was harsher, as were the penalties. The quests didn't tell you exactly where to go, and you never knew if an NPC had one unless you talked to them. You didn't know the reward, there were a lot less of them, and hardly ANY of them gave you massive amounts of XP, and they weren't the ONLY way to level up. 

The harsher evironment, the lack of massive amounts of online help sites, the lack of GPS tracking map, the lack of funneled zones, or predetermined paths to take, made the game have a whole lot more freedom, and a whole lot more punishing if you screwed up. Communities were built around HELPING eachother. And..you know, I just can't really explain it. 

WoW is a heavy noob friendly, no penalty, empty and shallow world filled with "quests" to level you up without any real effort, and where the only time you work together is when theres a quest with a boss at the end of it that you can't handle yourself. 

You quoted someone saying they were correct who said "they want single player games that can be played by themselves by while seeing chat scroll across their screen" and then proceeded to go on about how WoW is an example of what the person you quoted said.

Now I do agree that MMOs should have more focus on grouping, but all I get from you saying that older MMOs were harsher with more penalties, that it was hard to find quests or NPCs, and that it took grinding to level up... Well I guess good riddance to those MMO's on my part, because I don't want to spend massive amounts of time to build my character, and to be angry and confused when playing.

Having to explore to complete quests is fun and all while discovering in the process, but taking away any tools to help you find something (other than looking it up or asking someone) wouldn't be much fun for me personally in a big world.

I'm sure there are some "hard core" games out there full of grind, that force you to group, have death penalties, and lack maps or direction, so why don't you go play them instead of bashing WoW players?

Originally posted by Aeroangel

 

You quoted someone saying they were correct who said "they want single player games that can be played by themselves by while seeing chat scroll across their screen" and then proceeded to go on about how WoW is an example of what the person you quoted said.

and he is right people don't group up in WoW unless they are doing a raid or instance, exp groups just dont happen because you get better xp solo. so yes WoW is a very linear game that can be played by yourself.

Now I do agree that MMOs should have more focus on grouping, but all I get from you saying that older MMOs were harsher with more penalties, that it was hard to find quests or NPCs, and that it took grinding to level up... Well I guess good riddance to those MMO's on my part, because I don't want to spend massive amounts of time to build my character, and to be angry and confused when playing.

you adapt, yeah most people who play the (w)ussified, dumbed down MMOs we have today probably would be confused and angry if they ever played EQ1 in its hayday. "what i died? and i get penalized for dying ... who came up with this concept". "whats a train and why are these 20 mobs attack me when i didnt engage them first? omg what a stupid idea ... I quit". I am sure you would hear those quite often.

and you know what if you get angry when you die .. theres nothing wrong with that you should be emotionally invested in the character you play, you shouldn't want to die and yes while the game is there for fun, there needs to be harsh penalties for when you fail. Because that makes winning EVEN THAT MUCH MORE SATISFYING

Having to explore to complete quests is fun and all while discovering in the process, but taking away any tools to help you find something (other than looking it up or asking someone) wouldn't be much fun for me personally in a big world.

to you maybe, but to me questing is even worse than grinding mobs. it takes all the challenge out of the game of finding a group and proceeding to go deep into a huge dungeon. Again you have no idea how fun it is for a community to work together to figure out quests. Imagine this a game implements a new quest for a great class weapon, its extremely vague but gives you a general clue. So now everyone of that class comes together and works on the quest sharing tips, sharing info that they have found and telling each other what they have tried. its fun and exciting ... and it works ask most EQ2 players when SOE introduced the Fabled epic weapons.

I'm sure there are some "hard core" games out there full of grind, that force you to group, have death penalties, and lack maps or direction, so why don't you go play them instead of bashing WoW players?

Because of WoW popularity and those that play it ... any mainstream game thats designed by a huge company with a good IP will be a WoW clone (Warhammer online and Star Wars) . so were stuck with mostly underfunded under developed games. I bash WoW not because of its gameplay but because of what its done with the industry MMOs were starting to evolve from Eq1 into living worlds (SWG, DAOC) and then WoW came along and drove all evolution out of the game.

Because of WoW popularity and those that play it ... any mainstream game thats designed by a huge company with a good IP will be a WoW clone (Warhammer online and Star Wars) . so were stuck with mostly underfunded under developed games. I bash WoW not because of its gameplay but because of what its done with the industry MMOs were starting to evolve from Eq1 into living worlds (SWG, DAOC) and then WoW came along and drove all evolution out of the game.

agree!
 

Originally posted by Ravanos

I'm sure there are some "hard core" games out there full of grind, that force you to group, have death penalties, and lack maps or direction, so why don't you go play them instead of bashing WoW players?

Because of WoW popularity and those that play it ... any mainstream game thats designed by a huge company with a good IP will be a WoW clone (Warhammer online and Star Wars) . so were stuck with mostly underfunded under developed games. I bash WoW not because of its gameplay but because of what its done with the industry MMOs were starting to evolve from Eq1 into living worlds (SWG, DAOC) and then WoW came along and drove all evolution out of the game.

 

 I could not agree more with this statement as I played EQ1, I played SWG, though I didn't play DAOC, wasn't my thing, and during those days, you didn't have a big set of quests to run through to advance your skills or level. You actually had to figure things out on your own, and put some effort into it, beyond finding mob x, killing 10 of mob x, and turning in the skulls to npc Y at flightpoint B.

Unfortunately now in the MMO industry, many games stagnate or don't reach their potential, because as everyone knows, WoW dominates the MMO market.

I myself am a 4 year veteran of WoW and I understand it has some great strengths. Raiding in WoW is simply fantastic, if a bit repetitive. Instances in WoW are truly a marvel. The world is beautifully crafted, even though once you reach the level cap, it is largely wasted, which is in itself a shame, because Blizzard has definitely created a very unique and beautiful game world.
 

Wow has been both a blessing and a curse on the MMO industry in that it has opened up a lot of players to the genre, but at the same time has doomed the industry to it's current state of linear forced play, at least until something comes along to usurp WoW's throne.
 

there where a few problems with oblivion. the main one was that it was singleplayer. an oblivion MMO would be the king of all MMO's.

Originally posted by Elbowskrape

Because of WoW popularity and those that play it ... any mainstream game thats designed by a huge company with a good IP will be a WoW clone (Warhammer online and Star Wars) . so were stuck with mostly underfunded under developed games. I bash WoW not because of its gameplay but because of what its done with the industry MMOs were starting to evolve from Eq1 into living worlds (SWG, DAOC) and then WoW came along and drove all evolution out of the game.

agree!
 

 

Me too.

and here is the main reason i bash SOME (not all) WoW players ....

go to any new MMORPG thats in developement  and bring up ideas that could actually help the game evolve. if they are different than WoW, you will always at least get quite a few "well this is how WoW does it, and it has 11 million subscribers so thats how it should be done ... if its not this game will fail".

it seems like many WOW players (again not all) Want WoW with different skins and i just dont understand that. Why would someone want to play the same game as they did before? and from a developer standpoint why would someone switch to your game if its the same thing that they have been doing for 4 years.

hell i thought i believe i read an interview with one of the WAR devs basically saying "we want the transition from that game(WoW) to our to be very easy". And i say WHY? part of the enjoyment i get from new games is LEARNING THE NEW GAME.