GrayGhost79 your straw man and Ad hominem arguments do not substantiate the legitimacy of this game.
 

Vpellen,

I read through most of the conversation between you and raiden, and i can definitely appreciate where you are comming from in regards to the defition of "trolling" and "excessive" etc.

I think the main concern is that there are certain posters who consistently make new threads and posts that are designed to cause trouble.  They aren't giving opinions and are simply trying to bait people. 

There are fans of DF who behave just as badly, and they too are never dealt with.

I understand that with the ammount of traffic on the site, and the number of posters who go back and forth in a hot topic forum like the DF forum, its tough to identify the real trouble makers.  But if you were to look at some of the post histories of these people it is obvious what they are here for.

I guess a lot of fans and skeptics would like to see a little more mature moderation (im not calling you immature) in the sense that you put the red tape aside and identify the people who are just not here with good intentions.  And this goes for both fans and haters.  When you see someone start thread after thread with the same topic it gets obvious and nothing is done about them.

I am definitely someone who is on this forum a good deal, and there are clearly a number of posters who are ruining this forum through their actions.  How you have not perma banned someone like Tenspotting is beyond me.  I think even the most skeptical DF posters would agree that he and others just need to go.

cant have it one way tho see if the people who do nothing but post the omg darkfall blows stuff then you should have to give equal treatment to the  ones who spam nothing but omg darkfall rules stuff

honestly how mant times in the last 2 days have you changed that overly obnoxious sig of yours?

so remember if you want to call for harsher moderation it has to cover both sides of the coin

Originally posted by lobster99

cant have it one way tho see if the people who do nothing but post the omg darkfall blows stuff then you should have to give equal treatment to the  ones who spam nothing but omg darkfall rules stuff

honestly how mant times in the last 2 days have you changed that overly obnoxious sig of yours?

so remember if you want to call for harsher moderation it has to cover both sides of the coin

 

 

If you take the time to read my post, youll see that I clearly mention that there are fans that behave just as badly. Don't be so quick to judge, read slowly.

And with my sig....i had a normal sized sig that was reported because it was "offensive" because it had a girl in a bikini on it.  Which is ridicuous because the front page has a 1/2 naked female from AoC on it, but thats besides the point.
 

Anyways after some exchange of messages with the staff, of what would be "acceptable" in terms of offensiveness, I ended up with the old tombstone.  If you want to blame anyone for the sig changes, you can blame the people who reported it just for the sake of reporting someone who has a different opinion as them.  How someone can choose to come to a site that has pictures of women in armor that is even less revealing that also shows them cutting peoples heads off with full blood....but yet find a woman in a bikini top offensive is just ridiculous.

But yea main point is that if you read my message above youll see that I mention that both fanbois and trolls need to be dealt with more harshly.  I think you just read it a little too fast.  I have reported fanbois for excessive nonsense as well.

okay i am sorry about the sig then i really thought you were changing it just to be annoying

we can agree then that this forum is kinda out of control and its very hard to have a discussion about the game

honesly i'm sure there are real questions and real answers about this game but i fear this just isnt the place to find out

Originally posted by originalegg

Originally posted by lobster99

cant have it one way tho see if the people who do nothing but post the omg darkfall blows stuff then you should have to give equal treatment to the  ones who spam nothing but omg darkfall rules stuff

honestly how mant times in the last 2 days have you changed that overly obnoxious sig of yours?

so remember if you want to call for harsher moderation it has to cover both sides of the coin

 

 

 

If you take the time to read my post, youll see that I clearly mention that there are fans that behave just as badly. Don't be so quick to judge, read slowly.

And with my sig....i had a normal sized sig that was reported because it was "offensive" because it had a girl in a bikini on it.  Which is ridicuous because the front page has a 1/2 naked female from AoC on it, but thats besides the point.
 

Anyways after some exchange of messages with the staff, of what would be "acceptable" in terms of offensiveness, I ended up with the old tombstone.  If you want to blame anyone for the sig changes, you can blame the people who reported it just for the sake of reporting someone who has a different opinion as them.  How someone can choose to come to a site that has pictures of women in armor that is even less revealing that also shows them cutting peoples heads off with full blood....but yet find a woman in a bikini top offensive is just ridiculous.

But yea main point is that if you read my message above youll see that I mention that both fanbois and trolls need to be dealt with more harshly.  I think you just read it a little too fast.  I have reported fanbois for excessive nonsense as well.

what the .... who would report that bikini sig. that was a sweet sig. Hell of alot better than that evolution one.  I cannot figure out for the life of me as to why Ameicans general population is so scared of the female body. Other countries are not half as censored as the US is. bah I give up. Some people take posts way to personal, and out to get the person on the other side of the debate.

I know!

After I made the sig, Shannia, an outspoken DF skeptic, complimented me on the sig.  I made it so it would be something both sides of the argument would enjoy!

I never saw Zorvan's sig that he mentions in his sig now...but apparently it was a cheerleader of some kind and it was reported on the AoC forums.  AoC...a game that was hyped up about its nudity.  It is pretty sad.

Originally posted by Polarization

GrayGhost79 your straw man and Ad hominem arguments do not substantiate the legitimacy of this game.
 

I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.

Originally posted by lobster99

cant have it one way tho see if the people who do nothing but post the omg darkfall blows stuff then you should have to give equal treatment to the  ones who spam nothing but omg darkfall rules stuff

honestly how mant times in the last 2 days have you changed that overly obnoxious sig of yours?

so remember if you want to call for harsher moderation it has to cover both sides of the coin

 

 

lol Honestly I would be happy if they simply started upholding the ROC they currently have. Not realy asking for harsher moderation just that they actualy start lol. I mean Tenspotting doesn't have anything happen to him till long after the discussion is destroyed usualy. Not asking for harsher moderation just for them to start upholding the ROC they put in place lol. Doesn't seem like a lot does it. But VPellen has explained why moderators can't moderate DarkFall forums, apparently if we didn't have the trolls there wouldn't be anything to discuss. I guess the other DF forums on other sites are just my hallucination lol then again it could be that those mods actualy uphold there ROC with out making excuses why it would be bad if they did or why they can't.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by lobster99

cant have it one way tho see if the people who do nothing but post the omg darkfall blows stuff then you should have to give equal treatment to the  ones who spam nothing but omg darkfall rules stuff

honestly how mant times in the last 2 days have you changed that overly obnoxious sig of yours?

so remember if you want to call for harsher moderation it has to cover both sides of the coin

 

 

 

lol Honestly I would be happy if they simply started upholding the ROC they currently have. Not realy asking for harsher moderation just that they actualy start lol. I mean Tenspotting doesn't have anything happen to him till long after the discussion is destroyed usualy. Not asking for harsher moderation just for them to start upholding the ROC they put in place lol. Doesn't seem like a lot does it. But VPellen has explained why moderators can't moderate DarkFall forums, apparently if we didn't have the trolls there wouldn't be anything to discuss. I guess the other DF forums on other sites are just my hallucination lol then again it could be that those mods actualy uphold there ROC with out making excuses why it would be bad if they did or why they can't.

Yea they need to take a lesson from the modeartion over at the official boards.  Where the majority of threads that get locked/removed are actually those that are made by fanbois.  Only moderation that I have seen done better is on the twoplustwo.com forums. 

However for having such a small staff here, the mods at mmorpg.com actually do an amazing job.  They have a lot of forums to cover and they can't catch everything.  My only problem is that when they catch someone like tenspotting, who even had an entire thread with fans and skeptics in it calling him out, and they do nothing but slap him on the wrist it is frustrating. 

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Polarization

GrayGhost79 your straw man and Ad hominem arguments do not substantiate the legitimacy of this game.
 

 

I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.

You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.

Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.

Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.

If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.

And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.

Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:

“Vaporware? Not at all!”
 

Let me ask you a simple question:

Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?

Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.

And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.

Originally posted by Polarization

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Polarization

GrayGhost79 your straw man and Ad hominem arguments do not substantiate the legitimacy of this game.
 

 

I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.

You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.

Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.

Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.

If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.

And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.

Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:

“Vaporware? Not at all!”
 

Let me ask you a simple question:

Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?

Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.

And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.

You sould not have used the strawman Ad hominem analogie twice in a row, it undercuts your debate-mojo. Now you only look like a guy who recently found out what "strawman and Ad hominem" means.

You are slipping man! shape up!

Originally posted by Polarization

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Polarization

GrayGhost79 your straw man and Ad hominem arguments do not substantiate the legitimacy of this game.
 

 

I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.

You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.

Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.

Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.

If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.

And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.

Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:

“Vaporware? Not at all!”
 

Let me ask you a simple question:

Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?

Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.

And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.

Actualy I am fine with the discussion around the legitamacy of the game. My problem is if you guys honestly wanted to discuss it you would make a thread for it instead of disrupting every other thread made . If it was an honest attempt at discussion it would be fine, the problem is what you guys do fit the deffinition of trolling to a T. When graphics are brought up, you and a select few others decide no one deserves to discuss anything other than wether the game exists or not.

When people try and talk about updates, you and a select few others decide that isn't a worthy topic for discussion and attempt to make it about DarkFall's existance.

I mean come on Polar lol, if you truely wished to discuss it then I would be fine with it. However it is blatantly obvious you do not, you have your "Opinion" that completey disregards facts which is fine. I have my opinion supported by facts which is fine. If you wish to discuss the issue by all means make a thread, refute the evidence given with your own evidence and lets have an actualy debate so that you and others that are purposely disrupting other threads no longer have an excuse to do so. So what do you say? You start a thread discussing DarkFalls legitamacy and quit trolling in other threads, Hijacking topics and we can discuss it there.

So tommorow since it is actual debate on the subject you claim you want and you are not just trolling then I expect to see a thread about DarkFall's existance. This should eliminate any reason for you and others to troll and hijack other threads so what do you say?

My guess is your going to make an excuse about why you won't and how pertinent it is for you to continue discussing DarkFall's existance in threads about Graphics, Mechanics, FFA PvP, Mob AI, Animations, the crafting system ect. ect. ect.

And of course you will be backed up by a mod saying if you guys weren't allowed to troll no one would discuss DarkFall lol.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Polarization

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Polarization

GrayGhost79 your straw man and Ad hominem arguments do not substantiate the legitimacy of this game.
 

 

I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.

You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.

Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.

Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.

If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.

And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.

Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:

“Vaporware? Not at all!”
 

Let me ask you a simple question:

Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?

Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.

And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.

 

Actualy I am fine with the discussion around the legitamacy of the game. My problem is if you guys honestly wanted to discuss it you would make a thread for it instead of disrupting every other thread made . If it was an honest attempt at discussion it would be fine, the problem is what you guys do fit the deffinition of trolling to a T. When graphics are brought up, you and a select few others decide no one deserves to discuss anything other than wether the game exists or not.

When people try and talk about updates, you and a select few others decide that isn't a worthy topic for discussion and attempt to make it about DarkFall's existance.

I mean come on Polar lol, if you truely wished to discuss it then I would be fine with it. However it is blatantly obvious you do not, you have your "Opinion" that completey disregards facts which is fine. I have my opinion supported by facts which is fine. If you wish to discuss the issue by all means make a thread, refute the evidence given with your own evidence and lets have an actualy debate so that you and others that are purposely disrupting other threads no longer have an excuse to do so. So what do you say? You start a thread discussing DarkFalls legitamacy and quit trolling in other threads, Hijacking topics and we can discuss it there.

So tommorow since it is actual debate on the subject you claim you want and you are not just trolling then I expect to see a thread about DarkFall's existance. This should eliminate any reason for you and others to troll and hijack other threads so what do you say?

My guess is your going to make an excuse about why you won't and how pertinent it is for you to continue discussing DarkFall's existance in threads about Graphics, Mechanics, FFA PvP, Mob AI, Animations, the crafting system ect. ect. ect.

And of course you will be backed up by a mod saying if you guys weren't allowed to troll no one would discuss DarkFall lol.

And you've missed the point.  Right now, there is no other question really, except when will DF release, or if it will release at all.

Its the 10000 pound gorilla in the room that cannot be ignored.  If you want to talk graphics, mechanics etc, go to the DF forums, I'm sure people are having great discussions over there.

Here we take the approach, why bother with discussing all that, if the game isn't going to release sometime in our lifetime.

You blame the trolls, ( I'll wear the label proudly) but the blame lies on Aventurine.  They could stop all the madness, yet chose not to. 

See, trolling isn't a bad thing, and the sooner you accept that the happier you'll be.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Polarization

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Polarization

GrayGhost79 your straw man and Ad hominem arguments do not substantiate the legitimacy of this game.
 

 

I know polar you have made it clear that even if the game walked up to you on the street and beat you down stole your wallet you would still deny it even has a remote possibility to be real lol. I am not worried about what you think I was just stating facts in a debate I was having with someone that was worth debating with.

You are worried about what I think or what anyone else might think because you are here attempting to defend this games legitimacy, to deny it is silly, its self evident by your posts.

Straw man and Ad hominem arguments are not legitimate forms of debate, so you are resorting to illegitimate forms of debate, hardly a good foundation when attempting to prove the legitimacy of something.

Your “facts” do not substantiate this games legitimacy beyond reasonable doubt.

If they did then there would be no grounds to reasonably question the legitimacy of this game.

And people would not of been questioning the legitimacy of this game for the last 5 years, nor would they continue to do so.

Rather silly to deny this when the first sentence in the latest “review” of this game a few weeks from its official release date reads:

“Vaporware? Not at all!”
 

Let me ask you a simple question:

Do you still believe open beta will start and finish by early December and that the game will definitely launch in 2008 as Aventurine have stated it will?

Because If you don’t , then you yourself are questioning the legitimacy of this game.

And if these things do not happen, it will only further question the legitimacy of this game.

 

Actualy I am fine with the discussion around the legitamacy of the game. My problem is if you guys honestly wanted to discuss it you would make a thread for it instead of disrupting every other thread made . If it was an honest attempt at discussion it would be fine, the problem is what you guys do fit the deffinition of trolling to a T. When graphics are brought up, you and a select few others decide no one deserves to discuss anything other than wether the game exists or not.

When people try and talk about updates, you and a select few others decide that isn't a worthy topic for discussion and attempt to make it about DarkFall's existance.

I mean come on Polar lol, if you truely wished to discuss it then I would be fine with it. However it is blatantly obvious you do not, you have your "Opinion" that completey disregards facts which is fine. I have my opinion supported by facts which is fine. If you wish to discuss the issue by all means make a thread, refute the evidence given with your own evidence and lets have an actualy debate so that you and others that are purposely disrupting other threads no longer have an excuse to do so. So what do you say? You start a thread discussing DarkFalls legitamacy and quit trolling in other threads, Hijacking topics and we can discuss it there.

So tommorow since it is actual debate on the subject you claim you want and you are not just trolling then I expect to see a thread about DarkFall's existance. This should eliminate any reason for you and others to troll and hijack other threads so what do you say?

My guess is your going to make an excuse about why you won't and how pertinent it is for you to continue discussing DarkFall's existance in threads about Graphics, Mechanics, FFA PvP, Mob AI, Animations, the crafting system ect. ect. ect.

And of course you will be backed up by a mod saying if you guys weren't allowed to troll no one would discuss DarkFall lol.

 

And you've missed the point.  Right now, there is no other question really, except when will DF release, or if it will release at all.

Its the 10000 pound gorilla in the room that cannot be ignored.  If you want to talk graphics, mechanics etc, go to the DF forums, I'm sure people are having great discussions over there.

Here we take the approach, why bother with discussing all that, if the game isn't going to release sometime in our lifetime.

You blame the trolls, ( I'll wear the label proudly) but the blame lies on Aventurine.  They could stop all the madness, yet chose not to. 

See, trolling isn't a bad thing, and the sooner you accept that the happier you'll be.

 

Disrupting threads is a bad thing. It is denying others the chance to discuss things they are interested in on this site. I guess reading through 5 pages of flames and snide remarks on the Graphics in a thread about the music makes sensee to you and as you say you're ok with that which is fine. I guess I just expect a bit more intellegence and maturity from the MMORPG community is all. Thanks for telling me that I shouldn't expect that from you guys lol.

Any updates on this or maybe getting some staff to interview or get into beta?  Obviously you guys would have told us if you had gotten in, but was wondering if you could tell us if you have made contact at all.

Originally posted by imbant

Any updates on this or maybe getting some staff to interview or get into beta?  Obviously you guys would have told us if you had gotten in, but was wondering if you could tell us if you have made contact at all.

About the NDA: No, still no response.

About getting staff into beta: I think Woopin is sending some e-mails around, but still no responses yet. I will say this though: I may not be too interested in Darkfall, but let me into beta, release me from the NDA, and give me two solid weeks. At the end of it, I can give my personal assurance that there would not be a single person who would question the legitimacy of Darkfall.

I'm starting to doubt I'll ever get a response to the NDA thing. I don't know what to do about it, to be fair. I might just delete the thread (or unsticky and lock it: I don't like outright deleting things because it looks like a coverup attempt, which is the last impression I want to give), because the initial purpose of this thread was to stem the lightweight NDA violations I was seeing and clarify the "can I say I'm in beta" point which invariably comes up with all NDAs. (I didn't see anything conclusive for what it's worth, just a few "Yeah I'm in beta" posts.) Anybody who would have violated the NDA has probably got the picture by now anyway.

If I don't get any responses and I do lock the thread, I'll start talking to the other staff and the CM about the viability of warning people for NDA-covered content without actually having a copy of the NDA. It's a fair point, and I do intend to bring it up.

That's about it for now, though.

Originally posted by VPellen

Originally posted by imbant

Any updates on this or maybe getting some staff to interview or get into beta?  Obviously you guys would have told us if you had gotten in, but was wondering if you could tell us if you have made contact at all.

 

About the NDA: No, still no response.

About getting staff into beta: I think Woopin is sending some e-mails around, but still no responses yet. I will say this though: I may not be too interested in Darkfall, but let me into beta, release me from the NDA, and give me two solid weeks. At the end of it, I can give my personal assurance that there would not be a single person who would question the legitimacy of Darkfall.

I'm starting to doubt I'll ever get a response to the NDA thing. I don't know what to do about it, to be fair. I might just delete the thread (or unsticky and lock it: I don't like outright deleting things because it looks like a coverup attempt, which is the last impression I want to give), because the initial purpose of this thread was to stem the lightweight NDA violations I was seeing and clarify the "can I say I'm in beta" point which invariably comes up with all NDAs. (I didn't see anything conclusive for what it's worth, just a few "Yeah I'm in beta" posts.) Anybody who would have violated the NDA has probably got the picture by now anyway.

If I don't get any responses and I do lock the thread, I'll start talking to the other staff and the CM about the viability of warning people for NDA-covered content without actually having a copy of the NDA. It's a fair point, and I do intend to bring it up.

That's about it for now, though.

Thanks for the update. 

If DF stays true to its word about the development timeline, it seems like we may all be in open beta before they would get back to you and set something up.

Only time will tell I guess. 

Can't very well enforce an NDA agreement that you don't know really exists.  Seems like people can say whatever they like unless you hear otherwise from Aventurine. 

Better to beg forgiveness than permission.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Can't very well enforce an NDA agreement that you don't know really exists.  Seems like people can say whatever they like unless you hear otherwise from Aventurine. 

Better to beg forgiveness than permission.

Problem is DarkFall forums Community Mang told them what was enforced, which is the same thing the DF mods are going by. What VPellen had asked for originaly he did recieve, the Mang. told them what was to be enforced it is now MMORPG.com's choice to honor what they said they will do or throw it out the window for this one game.

On the plus side though VPellen has informed us that we may now freely constantly question the existance of every other game not launched in every thread made about said game and not fear warnings or bans. I mean if we were to get warnings or bans for doing the same to the other games what VPellen has said is ok for DarkFall then that would be showing bias against DarkFall specificaly. 

So in short it is now ok to post in any thread concerning a not yet launched game and say it's vaporware, that it will fail even if it does launch and post excessively negative comments about it as well as hijack threads. If you are warned for doing so or banned simply show the posts here where VPellen said it was ok. ^^  thanks VPellen.