I was playing Fallout 3. It's a solo RPG, like KOTOR if you've played that. Single player RPG's are all about questing.

There is some "grind", that is killing random Mobs that are not in a quest, but 90% of the single player roleplaying  game is a bunch of quests. It's usually linear, but it can be non-linear like KOTOR. There are a bunch of quests on KOTOR, but it doesn't matter what order you do them in.

Good single player RPG quests are fun. They have good stories, and can be very involved. You can spend a lot of time reading quest dialog, lore, and doing a quest over and over again till you succeed. Basically, if you die attempting the quest, you can just do it again till you figure out how to do it without dying.

But, while the quests are very involved, fun, and in depth, there's limited replayability. It's like reading a good book. Sure, you can read it again, but you probably will want to read something new since you already know the story.

Now grinding, as far as I know comes from MMORPGs. Instead of following a quest, you just kill Mobs over and over. Sounds boring right? But it's not if you're in a group. You can organize a good group, everyone can cooperate and play their roles, and chat during downtime. Grinding with a good group can be a lot of fun. DaoC had grinding and quests, but the quests didn't give you THAT much xp over grinding. I preferred to grind whenever possible, because the grouping was fun.

But now games are moving away from grinding, to giving much more XP for completing Quests, which some people call "quest grinding". Why? I think it's because MMORPGs are becoming more like single player rpgs, only you can chat with people while you play, and occaisionally group.

In other words, you want it casual friendly, which means you don't require a group to play the game. So, you put in more and more quests, so the game is more and more like a single player roleplaying game.

All you need is some better more in depth quests, like you see in KOTOR or Fallout 3, and what you'll have is a massive online single player game, that people can play at the same time.  Of course you can still group once in a while, if you want to.

Agree 100%,

I too would prefer to group an grind tough mobs over an over, than do 1,000,000,000 quests

that all they require me to do is run back and forth alot, click on the ground a few times, and kill a few mob.

and the mobs aren't hard, its trivial to kill mobs in MMORPGS now.

actually they aren't even mmorpgs, anymore, just MOGs.

I think MMO is not able to compare with single game because most single gamea are combined with cheat code to play with. Some games are unplayable without cheat code.

I was impressed by the main quest from Fallout 3 but the other quest and the game still too limited as well as the total playing time. The best part could be purified water where James died.

There are plenty AI triggers in the game. If you killed Three Dog then there will be a female took over his place and says, now it's music time, why music only? I am just a technician because some asshole murder our DJ. 

But it is not possible to do it online.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Now grinding, as far as I know comes from MMORPGs.

Dragon Warrior, original final fantasy games, etc. etc. Or even further back, Telengard, etc.

I remember Dragon Warrior.  That was before Final Fantasy came out.  Both games had lots of mob grinding and random encounters.  It was so funny when you got really powerful and went back to old areas the weak mobs would run away from you.  In Final Fantasy I remember some really difficult battles against mobs that would turn your party members to stone.  Fun games for their time.

I'm not sure that grinding mobs in groups in the answer at the moment.  It's been done before and people got sick of it after a while.  Thats why they started to make games like WoW.  Now people are sick of doing quests so I think there has to be something new done.  A new style of play.

Originally posted by AKBandito

Agree 100%,

I too would prefer to group an grind tough mobs over an over, than do 1,000,000,000 quests

that all they require me to do is run back and forth alot, click on the ground a few times, and kill a few mob.

and the mobs aren't hard, its trivial to kill mobs in MMORPGS now.

actually they aren't even mmorpgs, anymore, just MOGs.

read: DDO

Most group-oriented game on the MMORPG market. Yes there are PLENTLY of roleplayers. Community is all very mature and there for the social adventures, not for gear and numbers.

IMO, the only true potential for questing in an MMO is through some sort of player driven content.  What passes for "quests" in MMOs right now is just...well...pathetic.  Really, it's just the easy, accessible, micro-waveable solution.  Thats why it's so popular.  Any non-gamer can jump right in and live the life of an Epic Hero, which consists of killing 10 wolves and returning their hides to Joe The Farmer for that awsome Leather armor +1.  I mean, who wouldn't want to do that!?

It's popular because any child can do it.

It doesn't have any social requirements and doesn't force you to work as a team. MMO companies know this and know they will reach a broad audience with it. It hurts socialising because it makes you game dependent instead of player dependent.

It allows the developers to send players everywhere and anywhere.

breaks up the boredom since players aren't always in the same spot.

spreads out the player base allowing the servers to load balance more efficently

allows the developers to say see we have a developed world with hunderds and thousands of quests.

allows the developers to 'herd' the players from one spot to another so you're with people your level.

attaches signifigance to areas players wouldn't ever want to be before experiance venders were there.

...

I know I'm missing a least a dozen other things.

Originally posted by paulscott

It allows the developers to send players everywhere and anywhere.

breaks up the boredom since players aren't always in the same spot.

spreads out the player base allowing the servers to load balance more efficently

allows the developers to say see we have a developed world with hunderds and thousands of quests.

allows the developers to 'herd' the players from one spot to another so you're with people your level.

attaches signifigance to areas players wouldn't ever want to be before experiance venders were there.

...

I know I'm missing a least a dozen other things.

Levels already did all that. They already directed you towards mobs you could handle.

Questing is there because anyone can follow something which directs them from point A to point B. A quest which tells someone to get 10 pieces of skin from a wolf and bring it back is doable by any child, how dumb or intelligent they are, or how skillfull at the game, doesn't matter. They will get XP no matter what.

It takes away any reason to form a capable group. WoW caps any skill to level because there is always a way to gain items and xp through quests. They reach an enormous audience with it, but their game is very shallow.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by paulscott

It allows the developers to send players everywhere and anywhere.

breaks up the boredom since players aren't always in the same spot.

spreads out the player base allowing the servers to load balance more efficently

allows the developers to say see we have a developed world with hunderds and thousands of quests.

allows the developers to 'herd' the players from one spot to another so you're with people your level.

attaches signifigance to areas players wouldn't ever want to be before experiance venders were there.

...

I know I'm missing a least a dozen other things.

 

Levels already did all that. They already directed you towards mobs you could handle.

Questing is there because anyone can follow something which directs them from point A to point B. A quest which tells someone to get 10 pieces of skin from a wolf and bring it back is doable by any child, how dumb or intelligent they are, or how skillfull at the game, doesn't matter. They will get XP no matter what.

It takes away any reason to form a capable group. WoW caps any skill to level because there is always a way to gain items and xp through quests. They reach an enormous audience with it, but their game is very shallow.

I approve this message.

quest grinding is worthless. i had way more fun mob grinding with random people in eq1 then i ever have quest grinding in any game, eq2, wow, ddo, lotro, coh/cov, aoc.

if its got quest grinding ive done it.

anyone know of a game coming out that isnt dependant on quests?

It's called the "path of least resistance".  Sort of like "why ride a horse across the western landscape when you can hop on a plane?"

Old MMO's were tough and unforgiving, but players "felt" more when they won or lost.  But the hold-our-hands quest grind has taken the place of that and now all MMORPG gaming is becoming sedately and pleasantly lame.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I was playing Fallout 3. It's a solo RPG, like KOTOR if you've played that. Single player RPG's are all about questing.

There is some "grind", that is killing random Mobs that are not in a quest, but 90% of the single player roleplaying  game is a bunch of quests. It's usually linear, but it can be non-linear like KOTOR. There are a bunch of quests on KOTOR, but it doesn't matter what order you do them in.

Good single player RPG quests are fun. They have good stories, and can be very involved. You can spend a lot of time reading quest dialog, lore, and doing a quest over and over again till you succeed. Basically, if you die attempting the quest, you can just do it again till you figure out how to do it without dying.

But, while the quests are very involved, fun, and in depth, there's limited replayability. It's like reading a good book. Sure, you can read it again, but you probably will want to read something new since you already know the story.

Now grinding, as far as I know comes from MMORPGs. Instead of following a quest, you just kill Mobs over and over. Sounds boring right? But it's not if you're in a group. You can organize a good group, everyone can cooperate and play their roles, and chat during downtime. Grinding with a good group can be a lot of fun. DaoC had grinding and quests, but the quests didn't give you THAT much xp over grinding. I preferred to grind whenever possible, because the grouping was fun.

But now games are moving away from grinding, to giving much more XP for completing Quests, which some people call "quest grinding". Why? I think it's because MMORPGs are becoming more like single player rpgs, only you can chat with people while you play, and occaisionally group.

In other words, you want it casual friendly, which means you don't require a group to play the game. So, you put in more and more quests, so the game is more and more like a single player roleplaying game.

All you need is some better more in depth quests, like you see in KOTOR or Fallout 3, and what you'll have is a massive online single player game, that people can play at the same time.  Of course you can still group once in a while, if you want to.

Group grinding also get's boring after a while.Questing is fun as long as the quests are good written and there are enough so you don't have to do them with your alt.

Both grinding mobs and repeating quests get boring after a while, I guess that is why I usually change game after a year or so.

Off course you could sandbox or give high level characters the ability to generate their own quests but nothing I tried had a good way of doing that.

That a game is close to a single player games doesn't have to be bad.

Still, we need a fresh game, I think the gamemakers should go back to check the old pen and paper RPGs, they have evolved a lot since AD&D.

Somewhere along the lines that a high level character get's he's own castle and then hire in low levels to do hes bidding. Mix in a bit of RTS in the game too, the high level guy design the keep, creates the Npcs he hire in and then can give quest and objectives to the low levels working for him.

Once you level up to mid level you can design a small tower either for yourself, your guild or a high level player and once you hit enough level you can get your own keep.

In most PnP roleplaying games you can reach nobility and get title. Have players in a land (or guild) have those titles and have them build armies and guard the border.

On a PvE server, WAr between countries (yeah, guilds, whatever) could only happen rarely during certain circomstances while it could happen a lot on PvP servers. Lands should be able to became vassals of the bigger one if they want to, or break free and betray.

We should really mix politics and WAR into the games, and not WAR wars but based on how things really work before with alliances, betrayal, spies and so on.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by paulscott

It allows the developers to send players everywhere and anywhere.

breaks up the boredom since players aren't always in the same spot.

spreads out the player base allowing the servers to load balance more efficently

allows the developers to say see we have a developed world with hunderds and thousands of quests.

allows the developers to 'herd' the players from one spot to another so you're with people your level.

attaches signifigance to areas players wouldn't ever want to be before experiance venders were there.

...

I know I'm missing a least a dozen other things.

 

Levels already did all that. They already directed you towards mobs you could handle.

Questing is there because anyone can follow something which directs them from point A to point B. A quest which tells someone to get 10 pieces of skin from a wolf and bring it back is doable by any child, how dumb or intelligent they are, or how skillfull at the game, doesn't matter. They will get XP no matter what.

It takes away any reason to form a capable group. WoW caps any skill to level because there is always a way to gain items and xp through quests. They reach an enormous audience with it, but their game is very shallow.

Levels do not do enough. There are many many different type of mobs in the right level range. Quests give you reason to after every one of them, as opposed to just the most efficient to kill.

I'd be happy if they got rid of quest all together and put time back into character development.  Cause let's be real there is no difference between grinding quest and grinding mobs.

Originally posted by Waterlily

Originally posted by paulscott

It allows the developers to send players everywhere and anywhere.

breaks up the boredom since players aren't always in the same spot.

spreads out the player base allowing the servers to load balance more efficently

allows the developers to say see we have a developed world with hunderds and thousands of quests.

allows the developers to 'herd' the players from one spot to another so you're with people your level.

attaches signifigance to areas players wouldn't ever want to be before experiance venders were there.

...

I know I'm missing a least a dozen other things.

 

Levels already did all that. They already directed you towards mobs you could handle.

Questing is there because anyone can follow something which directs them from point A to point B. A quest which tells someone to get 10 pieces of skin from a wolf and bring it back is doable by any child, how dumb or intelligent they are, or how skillfull at the game, doesn't matter. They will get XP no matter what.

It takes away any reason to form a capable group. WoW caps any skill to level because there is always a way to gain items and xp through quests. They reach an enormous audience with it, but their game is very shallow.

Ok but the same thing can be said about staying in one area grinding mobs.

It doens't take any more brains or skill to keep ahead of the spawn rate and pretty much do the same thing for every mob in order to kill it.

So instead of killing 10 wolves for their pelts and then bring them back you are just killing many wolves over and over gain.

Simple: human beings relate to stories and quests are the only reliable form of giving you stories in an MMORPG. Trying to tackle the topic of quests by taking it out of the context of story completely and referring to it as merely "handholding" makes no sense.

I do read the quests. If I don't like what I'm reading, it'll put me off the game. If I do, it'll pull me in. It's one of the more enjoyable aspects of playing an RPG for me. Apparently "shallow" in MMOs has become a misnomer. Almost by definition there is more "depth" in an MMORPG with stories than a simulation of mindless mass fauna destruction.

Originally posted by EATtheDEAD

 

I approve this message.

quest grinding is worthless. i had way more fun mob grinding with random people in eq1 then i ever have quest grinding in any game, eq2, wow, ddo, lotro, coh/cov, aoc.

if its got quest grinding ive done it.

anyone know of a game coming out that isnt dependant on quests?

Too bad you're all alone now=)  That style of gameplay isn't coming back in any AAA MMO.   You can still do it in Asian MMOs though, so have a blast. 

I remember spawn camping and EXP Min Maxing.    It wasn't "all that".  It was a boring, tedious chore and the reason WOW attracted millions of people to a genre that only interested, lets just say it...nerds and geeks.  Plenty of us who played EQ, DAOC, ect, were able to see how much better doing a quest was.  Sure its still killing a bunch of mobs, but its better and luckily you don't HAVE TO do quests in any MMO.  You can completely ignore them all and grind away.  I couldn't ignore grinding, spawn camping or MIN/Maxing  in EQ or DAOC.  It was the only way to advance and it was not good.

ANyone know of a game with no quests?  Yup.  Its called a F2P MMO.  Enjoy;)

Originally posted by Josher

 

I remember spawn camping and EXP Min Maxing.    It wasn't "all that".  It was a boring, tedious chore and the reason WOW attracted millions of people to a genre that only interested, lets just say it...nerds and geeks. 

lol, well I suppose there is some truth to this

Quest grinding was born of grinding, or more accurately, the monotony of grinding.  With quests you are still more or less grinding (especially the kill x number of y mob) but you get extra rewards for it.

Back in old EQ days, all there was for XP was grind: pick your spot, pull a mob, repeat.  So with quests, at least there is a little flavor involved, and they arent required anyway, so you could simply pass them up or get a group for higher level enemies, some people in that group just happen to have active quests to complete, whats wrong with that?

If quests are making you feel led around by your nose, then dont do them! just go run off somewhere you havent been before! 

From my perspective, all types of grinding seem to be a waste of time when the game itself is end-game heavy, your just wasting time until endgame.  EQ wasnt like this, by the time you got to the end-game, you had already experienced a 1 year journey.

Originally posted by Venger

Cause let's be real there is no difference between grinding quest and grinding mobs.

I can't say I agree that quests and grinding are the same. For me quests give me something else to focus on besides having to grind 500 mobs until the next level. If quests are done correctly they keep me running around to different places while following a storyline so I can explore safely and get a feel for the games setting. Q-World did this well.

In EQ whenever I was exploring for a new place to grind, when I couldn't find a group, I occasionaly ventured into bad areas. If I couldn't recover my own body I then had to whisper 10+ necros to see if one would be willing to summon my body in a far off place. If I couldn't find a necro then I would had to have died several times in order to get my body and get out of the area. All while losing experience for each death. Not my idea of fun therefore making quests good in my opinion since they give me some direction.

Lots' of good responses. I'm glad I'm not the only one that enjoys good old fashioned grinding.

That's not to say all quests are bad. I thought DAoC did it pretty well. You could grind most of the time. However, every other level or so there were quests you really needed to do for the rewards. They were usually multi part quests, and you had to group to complete them at the level they were meant to reward. You also got some pretty good gear and money from them, and some of them were pretty hard for your level, even with a group. That sort of quest I dont' mind.

But the newer games have tons of quests you can solo, and if you don't do the quests you're an idiot because you end up with twice the xp and gear from teh quests compared to just grinding, so you have to scroll through tons of mindless NPC dialog, over and over again.

Its like fast food. Its quick, easy, and accessible by everyone.

I absolutly hated the quest grind in LOTRO, but I love the quest grind in WoTLK. The reason is that the quests are very much mini storylines with a beginning and an end, and a variation of gameplay that makes them interesting from start to finish.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

I was playing Fallout 3. It's a solo RPG, like KOTOR if you've played that. Single player RPG's are all about questing.

There is some "grind", that is killing random Mobs that are not in a quest, but 90% of the single player roleplaying  game is a bunch of quests. It's usually linear, but it can be non-linear like KOTOR. There are a bunch of quests on KOTOR, but it doesn't matter what order you do them in.

Good single player RPG quests are fun. They have good stories, and can be very involved. You can spend a lot of time reading quest dialog, lore, and doing a quest over and over again till you succeed. Basically, if you die attempting the quest, you can just do it again till you figure out how to do it without dying.

But, while the quests are very involved, fun, and in depth, there's limited replayability. It's like reading a good book. Sure, you can read it again, but you probably will want to read something new since you already know the story.

Now grinding, as far as I know comes from MMORPGs. Instead of following a quest, you just kill Mobs over and over. Sounds boring right? But it's not if you're in a group. You can organize a good group, everyone can cooperate and play their roles, and chat during downtime. Grinding with a good group can be a lot of fun. DaoC had grinding and quests, but the quests didn't give you THAT much xp over grinding. I preferred to grind whenever possible, because the grouping was fun.

But now games are moving away from grinding, to giving much more XP for completing Quests, which some people call "quest grinding". Why? I think it's because MMORPGs are becoming more like single player rpgs, only you can chat with people while you play, and occaisionally group.

In other words, you want it casual friendly, which means you don't require a group to play the game. So, you put in more and more quests, so the game is more and more like a single player roleplaying game.

All you need is some better more in depth quests, like you see in KOTOR or Fallout 3, and what you'll have is a massive online single player game, that people can play at the same time.  Of course you can still group once in a while, if you want to.

It's really simple, quest grinding is popular, because most people are casual gamers who prefer to jump right into a game and have fun, not wait for a group to form before setting off to grind. Questing in particular is popular, because it gives you a distracting (entertaining) and extremely rewarding (xp, items, money) way to grind to max level.

DAoC broke my cherry with MMORPGs, so I am accustomed to grouping for xp, and I loved it. It made for some good conversations and it was never really dull, like quest grinding can be at times.

With that said, I think WoW did a good jod with the balance of group v. solo content. Every zone has a story line to follow with some weaker stories surrounding it. It all ties into the lore, which a lot of people has admitted to not giving two shits about, but I love it.