Okay, I'm not going to say much or use another color this time because it's quickly going to turn into a rainbow that no one will want to approach. Just a few points to make:

1. The assumption of jealously is the only reason I can think of that anyone would care enough into pouring energy against WoW. It's just a game, but it's holding a disproportionate share of the market, and without that market, other companies can't be sure of thier own financial success.

2. I think another developer very well COULD make a game better than WoW. The question is: Why haven't they? SWG before the combat upgrade was better than WoW in my opinion. For some reason, developers keep getting the same stuff wrong over and over again when they make the attempt.

3. Everyone can dislike a game. But why waste the energy attacking it? Opinions are fine, but who really cares how much some people hate WoW? Certainly not Blizzard and their millions of subscribers.

4. I don't care about people having negative opinions about WoW. People can have whatever opinions they want. It would just be nice if we could consolidate that hatred into its own forum, such as the Vet Refuge for former SWG players. I think the announcement of a new expansion of ANY game should be a place where fans can gather and talk about their experiences, ask questions, and look forward to more. Simply put, if you want to hate on WoW, there are better places for it, though I think hating on a game is a waste of energy and time.

No where did I say that my opinion was law. However if you don't care for the Starcraft and Diablo series of games (assuming you don't hate RTS and RPG games), there is something really wrong with you.

Originally posted by Daedalus732

 

2. I think another developer very well COULD make a game better than WoW. The question is: Why haven't they? SWG before the combat upgrade was better than WoW in my opinion. For some reason, developers keep getting the same stuff wrong over and over again when they make the attempt.

 

Holy crap did you just say SWG before CU was better than WOW?!?!?

Okay...I'm going to just slowly take steps back out of the room.  I would be hard pressed to actually hear an argument where that model was an excellent basis for MMO's.

SWG sucked years out of my life NOT because it was a great MMO but 1. it was my first (other choices were EQ and AC at the time) and 2. I had alot of friends there.

The game was pointless, pvp was a joke, jedi was a ploy, classes remained unbalanced for the entire duration of the game (/cough TK cough cough), and where else can you wield a weapon and become instant helpless after spamming a few specials without doctor buffs?!?!?

Please tell me you were kidding about SWG and that I just didn't get it because of my immediate scarred emotional response when I saw SWG in your sentence.

-Q

I played the beta for about a week and enjoyed it for what it was, however, it didn't make me excited for its release.

1) There really isn't anything in it for brand new players unless someone changed the minimum level requirement on an older character that opens up Death Knight playability. That being said, anyone can spend a couple weeks on a new character and meet that requirement in no time :P (Madness?! This is WOW!!)

2) You get to play as a Death Knight starting at level 55 and you will likely complete the new DK's area around 57.5 (probably a few hours), then grind or do Plagueland quests to meet the requirements to enter BC. Then you get to do all the old crap you have been doing for the last year but only after losing your awesome DK starting armor and turning into a colorful version of Bozo the Death Knight. THEN you can quest and grind to be able to adventure on Northrend. Sure, you can venture to Northrend earlier but good luck with that.

3) Nothrend is cool, as are the changes made to the cities with new ports and such for transportation (I especially liked the Stormwind one). Blizzard has always done a good job with snowy areas, imho, and the addition of new snow flurries, dynamic shadows and, possibly, better graphics/textures (or it could just be an illusion created from the new shadows and general better art) really does make the game look nicer. The new continent seems a little "tight" in some parts though. I think they will feel that way to a lot of people at first, too.

Some of the new parts of Northrend look especially nice and the attention to detail is very good. I personally liked Nagrand's design and many areas of Northrend thrilled me as much as it did at first impression.

4) New spells and abilities? Yeah definitely cool. Who couldn't love being able to dual-wield two-handed swords? Now I just need to find out where the three-handed swords drop...

I think most people will love the expansion but it doesn't offer enough new content for me. Perhaps a second Hero class would have helped...Fun is fun, I wish the best to those breaking down the virtual gates!

Originally posted by Mrqdesade

Originally posted by Daedalus732

 

2. I think another developer very well COULD make a game better than WoW. The question is: Why haven't they? SWG before the combat upgrade was better than WoW in my opinion. For some reason, developers keep getting the same stuff wrong over and over again when they make the attempt.

 

 

Holy crap did you just say SWG before CU was better than WOW?!?!?

Okay...I'm going to just slowly take steps back out of the room.  I would be hard pressed to actually hear an argument where that model was an excellent basis for MMO's.

SWG sucked years out of my life NOT because it was a great MMO but 1. it was my first (other choices were EQ and AC at the time) and 2. I had alot of friends there.

The game was pointless, pvp was a joke, jedi was a ploy, classes remained unbalanced for the entire duration of the game (/cough TK cough cough), and where else can you wield a weapon and become instant helpless after spamming a few specials without doctor buffs?!?!?

Please tell me you were kidding about SWG and that I just didn't get it because of my immediate scarred emotional response when I saw SWG in your sentence.

 

-Q

Actually, SWG pre-NGE was a pretty good game.  A player had far more options in that game than in Wow, the economy was player driven, not the ridiculous loot based in Wow.  You had a pretty good housing design, a lot of places to explore.  Granted it had some balance issues and had a far higher learning curve, but I think if SOE had fixed it, instead of changing it, they could have at least competed with Wow for the more intelligent gamer who wanted more than Wow had to offer.
 

Originally posted by John.A.Zoid

For me BAttlegrounds ruined WOW and until they make a Battlegroundless server I wont be coming back.

lol

---

Originally posted by Serulith
Not really excited about this one. I dont hate WoW, i just dont find it as interesting as it once was. WoW was at its peak before TBC was released, it was so fun back then. TBC and WotLK just dont deliver what expansions should, at least not fot me. Im into Lotro now. Sure it doesnt have 11 million subs, but a MMO doesnt need 11 million subs to be a success or fun.
 

---

This pretty much sums it up for me as well. WoW/TBC just started feeling very "tired" to me. Bored of TBC last spring, I tried LotRO on a 14-day free trial and found I liked it much more than WoW. LotRO seemed more casual player friendly (imo), had an actual storyline to follow, offered instance/group content that felt like less of a chore to complete, provides a better LFG system, and overall has a more realistic feel to it: no silly gnome flying machines, no absurdly gigantic weapons, no garish, neon armors, etc.

WoW is a clever and effective game, I will be the first to admit, and I had a lot of fun playing it, but it is a game that has just -- for me -- run its course.

Originally posted by Mrqdesade

Please tell me you were kidding about SWG and that I just didn't get it because of my immediate scarred emotional response when I saw SWG in your sentence.

SWG was my second MMO. My first was the original Jumpgate.

The basis for SWG was solid. The developers and SOE were not. They had the basis for a great game that kept me coming back:

1. A truly open world (or worlds)

2. Player cities and housing that could be placed almost anywhere in the game world

3. Intricate crafting that was time consuming and actually mattered

4. Built-in need to interact with other people (Doctors and entertainers for wounds/buffs)

That's not to say the game was perfect or that it didn't have problems. It did. But there was potential there for something great that SOE completely passed up. And then with the NGE, they destroyed the game for good.

My point was, however, that game companies clearly have the ability and the means to develop games that are superior to WoW, but for some reason, they don't. People have high expectations for new MMOs.

Frankly, I'm not going to play any new MMO that fails to include player housing/cities, intricate crafting systems, and many features for guilds.

I feel like there are so many good ideas out there spread across many different games that it really wouldn't take too much thought to compile all these good things into a single game and really give the more established MMOs a run for their money.

But alas...

Originally posted by Thradar

 Meh.  I know WoW has a gazillion subscribers, but it's like consuming a Big Mac.  It's cheap and filling but tastes like crap if you eat them every day.

I have to disagree with this.

Originally posted by Daedalus732

My point was, however, that game companies clearly have the ability and the means to develop games that are superior to WoW, but for some reason, they don't. People have high expectations for new MMOs.

Frankly, I'm not going to play any new MMO that fails to include player housing/cities, intricate crafting systems, and many features for guilds.

I feel like there are so many good ideas out there spread across many different games that it really wouldn't take too much thought to compile all these good things into a single game and really give the more established MMOs a run for their money.

But alas...

I'd like to say that wasting my time responding to you is not so much a waste, as it is a means of passing time until the next great MMO comes along.

But to your point. No, no development company has the funding to be superior to WoW. Why? Because if you watched the trends nowadays, most if not all developers are absorbed into larger companies which inevitably dictate the ebb and flow of some mass chunk of their development.

If you notice, most if not all the MMOs after EQ's release then WoW's release, have been some sort of clone in WoW's style and/or features and/or gameplay. Because investors feel overwhelmed by WoW's success and presence, that their mentality is to duplicate more than innovate in order to pull some of those subscribers away.

The only company I recognize that has not followed this rubric is CCP's EVE-Online. Besides, the age of Korean MMOs are fading. European MMOs are having some difficulty. And WoW overshadows all!

For as long as new MMOs "try" to innovate, Blizzard has the potential to take those innovative parts and incorporate it into their own design, thus depriving other companies of revenues to develop things further. Blizzard suffocates the MMO scene so much that investors are afraid--- and in this messed up economy where businesses are closing left-and-right, I doubt we'll see more MMOs on a grand scale like WoW, besides the ones that are backed by investors and name-brands (basically the MMOs that are announced so far).

Originally posted by argos5

Originally posted by Daedalus732

My point was, however, that game companies clearly have the ability and the means to develop games that are superior to WoW, but for some reason, they don't. People have high expectations for new MMOs.

Frankly, I'm not going to play any new MMO that fails to include player housing/cities, intricate crafting systems, and many features for guilds.

I feel like there are so many good ideas out there spread across many different games that it really wouldn't take too much thought to compile all these good things into a single game and really give the more established MMOs a run for their money.

But alas...

 

I'd like to say that wasting my time responding to you is not so much a waste, as it is a means of passing time until the next great MMO comes along.

 

But to your point. No, no development company has the funding to be superior to WoW. Why? Because if you watched the trends nowadays, most if not all developers are absorbed into larger companies which inevitably dictate the ebb and flow of some mass chunk of their development.

 

If you notice, most if not all the MMOs after EQ's release then WoW's release, have been some sort of clone in WoW's style and/or features and/or gameplay. Because investors feel overwhelmed by WoW's success and presence, that their mentality is to duplicate more than innovate in order to pull some of those subscribers away.

 

The only company I recognize that has not followed this rubric is CCP's EVE-Online. Besides, the age of Korean MMOs are fading. European MMOs are having some difficulty. And WoW overshadows all!

 

For as long as new MMOs "try" to innovate, Blizzard has the potential to take those innovative parts and incorporate it into their own design, thus depriving other companies of revenues to develop things further. Blizzard suffocates the MMO scene so much that investors are afraid--- and in this messed up economy where businesses are closing left-and-right, I doubt we'll see more MMOs on a grand scale like WoW, besides the ones that are backed by investors and name-brands (basically the MMOs that are announced so far).

Truth... Also, note that most new mmo's are rush jobs.. Everyone looking for that quick buck and forgetting to see that the bar for "acceptable" has been raised right out of the gate.. Gone are the days of saying "Oh, well its awful now, maybe if I give it 3 years to mature I could enjoy this game!".. People want instant gratification now that they have MANY MANY options.. WHo wants to pay to play a half done game when all they have to do is go back to one that has matured and is ready to play from start to finish out of the box with little or no interruptions?

I think the companies should take a step back and breathe.. The fucking world is not ending and there is plenty of money to be made still, they just gotta think before they start planning around how dumb they think we are as consumers when they release pure garbage and expect us to play it anyway.. We've shown it time and time again, we will make them pay..

Perfect example, is Mark Jacobs and warhammer online....... He basically called out WoW and said "I can do just as well, easily.."...

.. It was a very bold statement and if you look at the state of War right now.. Doesn't look like its going to well , so much for that "easy" part right?

He thought he could basically copy the exact Warcarft formula advertise it as "RvR" (something "new") apply a unique skin with a different UI and sell it as a "new" game... Typical.... Instead of sticking to his script from DAoC, he chose to cater to fans of another (more popular game by far) in the midst of its newest expansion (sigh..)... Takes guts to expect to go far with that kind of mind set..

Not every gamer who plays WoW is a mindless (I will play anything like WoW) gamer. I for one, get very excited to see a game FINALLY distance itself from WoW as much as possible (however, most of the new releases do the opposite of that, hell even F2P's have the WoW template down to a science)

Its just sad to see that the mmo game industry conclude that we would only pay for the same thing..

Originally posted by argos5
 

I'd like to say that wasting my time responding to you is not so much a waste, as it is a means of passing time until the next great MMO comes along.

 Okay, sure. You don't have to justify your replying to my posts. 

 

If you notice, most if not all the MMOs after EQ's release then WoW's release, have been some sort of clone in WoW's style and/or features and/or gameplay. Because investors feel overwhelmed by WoW's success and presence, that their mentality is to duplicate more than innovate in order to pull some of those subscribers away.

Yes, I have noticed this, and it pisses me off. I've said it many times: "If I wanted to play WoW, I would play WoW, and not some failed attempt to clone WoW with a new skin, fewer people, and more bugs". The simple truth of the matter is, investors are fucking retarded. No one is going to pull people away from WoW by promising more of the same. What's the incentive to leave? Simply put, no one is going to out WoW World of Warcraft.

 

The only company I recognize that has not followed this rubric is CCP's EVE-Online. Besides, the age of Korean MMOs are fading. European MMOs are having some difficulty. And WoW overshadows all!

The Jumpgate series is breaking the mold on this too, so my fingers are crossed that Jumpgate Evolution will be a success. Although it's not a traditional RPG, I'm guessing that many people are getting tired of the high fantasy MMOs that have saturated the market.

 

For as long as new MMOs "try" to innovate, Blizzard has the potential to take those innovative parts and incorporate it into their own design, thus depriving other companies of revenues to develop things further. Blizzard suffocates the MMO scene so much that investors are afraid--- and in this messed up economy where businesses are closing left-and-right, I doubt we'll see more MMOs on a grand scale like WoW, besides the ones that are backed by investors and name-brands (basically the MMOs that are announced so far).

Blizzard CAN take innovative features developed by other companies and incorporate them into their games, as can ANY company. This just goes back to what I was saying before about there being so many good ideas spread out over many different games, but no one seems to want to take all the good ideas, improve on them a bit, and then put them into a new game. This was true even when the economy wasn't in the toilet. 

I think the bottom line is, developers and investers need to start making better games that combine minor short term rewards with long term major rewards. It seems to simple that I just can't believe no one is taking the initiative to make it happen. Every new MMO that hits the market seems to have flaws that are so obvious you have to wonder what the developers were smoking while writing code. The most hyped MMOs of 2008 sold fewer boxes combined than WOTLK sold on it's first day.

I don't know what it's going to take for developers and investors to pull their heads out of their asses, but for now, I'm content to watch them lose money and players for their idiocy.