Originally posted by Ravanos

so um what are they doing to the game thats in the footsteps of the NGE( I assume thats what your alluding to).

all i see is a rant about PVP, no offense but PVP in that game sucked so i could care less about that change ... anything else? or are you just one of those chicken littles that with any change cries about how the world is going to end.

The pvp revamp is actually the third example of SOE-like developments.  (This is more like the CU than the NGE in my mind btw.)  Look again, and you may see game breaking bug ignored in beta, expansion advertised then not delivered, unwanted PvP AND PVE revamp, and chucking out all the work players did for devs regarding game improvements.  Think CURB and you'll know what I mean.  Also, the Exec for the game said they know that the current players don't like or want the revamp, but he doesn't care.  So he's chucking out the current players with the hope of enticing a new, larger group of players to come in.  Oh yes, and after admitting this, the community rep then said this was an error, they are in fact making the changes in view of current player feedback. 

Re. chicken little. Yeah I was one of the people that told SOE their NGE revamp was going to kill the game, and drive out hundreds of thousands of players.  Sometimes when someone says the sky is falling, it's best to seek shelter first, and criticize later.

Btw, I'm posting this for people that want to be aware of how MMO companies are treating their customers atm.  If you want to believe they're doing good business, that's okay by me, by all means go play their game, see for yourself.  

P.S. I found the comment from the community rep where he admitted chucking out the current players in favour of a new crowd: "We knew that the current PvP community wasn't likely to react well to the changes as they wern't who we were making changes for, so it's understandable that there is continuing complaints from that segment."

After making this statement, he then retracted it, saying "oops what I meant to say what that the changes are in fact in response to the current pvp community's feedback."  And, as he's retracting it, his boss is posting his own version of the retracted statement on the main website, saying once again that current players won't be happy, but they're doing it anyways to reach out to new people.

So, not only are they doing on unwanted revamp of the entire game (PVE and PVP), not just one thing, or even one system, the whole game, but now they're also lying about it, contradicting themselves and contradicting each other.  It's turning into a circus. (Edited btw to try to keep my frustration with NCsoft from spilling over onto other gamers, my apologies for the earlier tone).

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Ravanos

so um what are they doing to the game thats in the footsteps of the NGE( I assume thats what your alluding to).

all i see is a rant about PVP, no offense but PVP in that game sucked so i could care less about that change ... anything else? or are you just one of those chicken littles that with any change cries about how the world is going to end.

 

I'm starting to think that some people frequenting this forum can't or refuse to read.  The pvp revamp is the third example of NGE-like developments.  Look again, and you may see game breaking bug ignored in beta, expansion advertised then not delivered, unwanted PvP AND PVE revamp, and chucking out all the work players did for devs regarding game improvements.  Think CURB and you'll know what I mean.  Also, the Exec for the game said they know that the current players don't like or want the revamp, but he doesn't care.  So he's chucking out the current players with the hope of enticing a new, larger group of players to come in.  Oh yes, and after admitting this, the community rep then said this was an error, they are in fact making the changes in view of current player feedback.  Now sound familar?  One change, and the sky is falling lol, hardly the case here.

Re. chicken little. Yeah I was one of the people that told SOE their NGE revamp was going to kill the game, and drive out hundreds of thousands of players.  You're right, I must be crazy -_^.

This is for people that want to be aware of how MMO companies are treating their customers atm.  If you want to believe they're doing good business, by all means go play their game, see for yourself.  Enjoy the ride.

P.S. I found the comment from the community rep where he admitted chucking out the current players in favour of a new crowd: "We knew that the current PvP community wasn't likely to react well to the changes as they wern't who we were making changes for, so it's understandable that there is continuing complaints from that segment."

After making this statement, he then retracted it, saying "oops what I meant to say what that the changes are in fact in response to the current pvp community's feedback."  And, as he's retracting it, his boss is saying what the community rep said in the first place, that yeah the current players won't like it, but we're doing it anyways in the hope of making the game more appealing to new players.

So, not only are they doing on unwanted revamp of the entire game (PVE and PVP), not just one thing, or even one system, the whole game, but now they're also lying about it, contradicting themselves and contradicting each other lol.  It's turning into a circus.

Arc,

First, let me just say I've followed your posts in the SWG forums and have enjoyed them quite a bit. You bring a lot of insight and strong arguments to the table there. Your posts always make for good and thought-provokings reads.

I was there for the NGE back in the day and landed in CoX right after that. I follow the CoX o-forums daily and I just can't seem to draw as strong a comparison as you have.

Sure, they're revamping pvp and a number of folks aren't happy. But from what I've read, it's to make melee toons more involved in combat and cut down the FOTM pvp builds. We both know ranged ATs are at a huge advantage as it stands now, so would changes to benefit melee toons (other than stalkers) be that bad? And would seeing more variety than /nrg blasters, /mind doms with their TK power, and stalkers in pvp be a bad thing? Granted, I haven't been able to test the pvp changes yet because we just hit open beta for I13, but to me it seems it's a move to add more diversity to the pvp choices regarding ATs and their effectiveness. Sure, it opens the pvp game up to a larger crowd (the more casual pvp market) and means the hardcore pvpers might lose a bit more often. Is it bad to level the playing field a bit?

Sure, it's going to diminish the accomplishments of some hardcore pvpers and that's a shame, but that happens to all of us in games. Usually it comes in the form of nerfs. But in the NGE, major accomplishments were removed when whole classes were removed and we could no longer play our favorite toons. It's not like they're now removing blasters and forcing us to play a sloppy version of a defender/corrupter hybrid instead.

Let's also not forget the changes they were going to make to the ancillary/patron powers. Originally, each pool was going to lose a power or two and have a new one or two refitted to take their places. There was such an outcry this week that Friday the devs changed their minds after listening to the players. They're now going to leave the original APP/PPP as they are and add a new power to most of them. They actually listened to the player base and found a better solution -- definitely not the kind of thing SWG is noted for. They realized it was better to just add the new powers, which promotes even more diversity, instead of taking away things players actually enjoy.

As for the Architect, I think they were a bit too ambitious trying to schedule it for the very next issue. Moving it back to I14 isn't a dealbreaker to me because they've said they want to make sure they do it right (I believe it's also schedule for 1Q of 2009, so hopefully it's not too far away). If they half-arsed it just to get it into I13, everyone would be disappointed (and rushing things before they're ready is an old-school SOE tactic, as we both know).

If memory serves, the last post I read from a red name said they wanted us to be able to customize the bosses in the missions and be able to add characters of our own as npcs to missions. To me, if they delay the architect an issue to flush that feature out and improve the architect, I'm cool with that. Now, if it continues to get pushed back several issues, I'll have a problem with it.

They've added more ATs and more power sets, unlike with the NGE. They've promoted more diversity in the game and, to me, made it more complex by giving us so many more options for characters and power combinations.

I agree with the sync bug. That was a big bust for the people it affected. But it was fixed (unlike many bugs still in SWG that exist from the pre-cu and cu days). And to me, NCSoft still puts out a much better product than the one you mentioned. I just don't see the current changes in the game or the devs' plan for the game as being on the same level of the NGE and the current SWG devs.

Perhaps that means we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Harleyrider

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Ravanos

so um what are they doing to the game thats in the footsteps of the NGE( I assume thats what your alluding to).

all i see is a rant about PVP, no offense but PVP in that game sucked so i could care less about that change ... anything else? or are you just one of those chicken littles that with any change cries about how the world is going to end.

 

I'm starting to think that some people frequenting this forum can't or refuse to read.  The pvp revamp is the third example of NGE-like developments.  Look again, and you may see game breaking bug ignored in beta, expansion advertised then not delivered, unwanted PvP AND PVE revamp, and chucking out all the work players did for devs regarding game improvements.  Think CURB and you'll know what I mean.  Also, the Exec for the game said they know that the current players don't like or want the revamp, but he doesn't care.  So he's chucking out the current players with the hope of enticing a new, larger group of players to come in.  Oh yes, and after admitting this, the community rep then said this was an error, they are in fact making the changes in view of current player feedback.  Now sound familar?  One change, and the sky is falling lol, hardly the case here.

Re. chicken little. Yeah I was one of the people that told SOE their NGE revamp was going to kill the game, and drive out hundreds of thousands of players.  You're right, I must be crazy -_^.

This is for people that want to be aware of how MMO companies are treating their customers atm.  If you want to believe they're doing good business, by all means go play their game, see for yourself.  Enjoy the ride.

P.S. I found the comment from the community rep where he admitted chucking out the current players in favour of a new crowd: "We knew that the current PvP community wasn't likely to react well to the changes as they wern't who we were making changes for, so it's understandable that there is continuing complaints from that segment."

After making this statement, he then retracted it, saying "oops what I meant to say what that the changes are in fact in response to the current pvp community's feedback."  And, as he's retracting it, his boss is saying what the community rep said in the first place, that yeah the current players won't like it, but we're doing it anyways in the hope of making the game more appealing to new players.

So, not only are they doing on unwanted revamp of the entire game (PVE and PVP), not just one thing, or even one system, the whole game, but now they're also lying about it, contradicting themselves and contradicting each other lol.  It's turning into a circus.

Arc,

First, let me just say I've followed your posts in the SWG forums and have enjoyed them quite a bit. You bring a lot of insight and strong arguments to the table there. Your posts always make for good and thought-provokings reads.

I was there for the NGE back in the day and landed in CoX right after that. I follow the CoX o-forums daily and I just can't seem to draw as strong a comparison as you have.

Sure, they're revamping pvp and a number of folks aren't happy. But from what I've read, it's to make melee toons more involved in combat and cut down the FOTM pvp builds. We both know ranged ATs are at a huge advantage as it stands now, so would changes to benefit melee toons (other than stalkers) be that bad? And would seeing more variety than /nrg blasters, /mind doms with their TK power, and stalkers in pvp be a bad thing? Granted, I haven't been able to test the pvp changes yet because we just hit open beta for I13, but to me it seems it's a move to add more diversity to the pvp choices regarding ATs and their effectiveness. Sure, it opens the pvp game up to a larger crowd (the more casual pvp market) and means the hardcore pvpers might lose a bit more often. Is it bad to level the playing field a bit?

Sure, it's going to diminish the accomplishments of some hardcore pvpers and that's a shame, but that happens to all of us in games. Usually it comes in the form of nerfs. But in the NGE, major accomplishments were removed when whole classes were removed and we could no longer play our favorite toons. It's not like they're now removing blasters and forcing us to play a sloppy version of a defender/corrupter hybrid instead.

Let's also not forget the changes they were going to make to the ancillary/patron powers. Originally, each pool was going to lose a power or two and have a new one or two refitted to take their places. There was such an outcry this week that Friday the devs changed their minds after listening to the players. They're now going to leave the original APP/PPP as they are and add a new power to most of them. They actually listened to the player base and found a better solution -- definitely not the kind of thing SWG is noted for. They realized it was better to just add the new powers, which promotes even more diversity, instead of taking away things players actually enjoy.

As for the Architect, I think they were a bit too ambitious trying to schedule it for the very next issue. Moving it back to I14 isn't a dealbreaker to me because they've said they want to make sure they do it right (I believe it's also schedule for 1Q of 2009, so hopefully it's not too far away). If they half-arsed it just to get it into I13, everyone would be disappointed (and rushing things before they're ready is an old-school SOE tactic, as we both know).

If memory serves, the last post I read from a red name said they wanted us to be able to customize the bosses in the missions and be able to add characters of our own as npcs to missions. To me, if they delay the architect an issue to flush that feature out and improve the architect, I'm cool with that. Now, if it continues to get pushed back several issues, I'll have a problem with it.

They've added more ATs and more power sets, unlike with the NGE. They've promoted more diversity in the game and, to me, made it more complex by giving us so many more options for characters and power combinations.

I agree with the sync bug. That was a big bust for the people it affected. But it was fixed (unlike many bugs still in SWG that exist from the pre-cu and cu days). And to me, NCSoft still puts out a much better product than the one you mentioned. I just don't see the current changes in the game or the devs' plan for the game as being on the same level of the NGE and the current SWG devs.

Perhaps that means we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Nah, I get where you're coming from.  Thing is, I AM a hardcore pvper in there lol.  So, unfortunately, when Miller and Lighthouse say they're not making the changes for us, and that they don't really care if we complain, he's talking about me and the people in the game I spend the most time with.  Also there are a lot of people on the boards saying things like, "we don't need the current pvpers, they'll be replaced by all the new people we get because of the changes."  Honestly, that's just a crappy attitude.

Also, tbh, I was really offended when Lighthouse first said that the changes were not being made for current players, and then later reversed his position and tried to convince us that the changes were in fact meant to address our input.  Frankly, that's just insulting.

At the same time Miller is still saying that current players don't rate.  I honestly feel they're being dishonest now, and it frustrates me.

Also, I have been beta testing the pvp changes especially.  They say one thing and do the other in this as well.  They say they want to make pvp more accessible to melee toons.  You wouldn't believe what they actually did.  They removed mez protection completely, and suppressed movement.  This means that flying dominators hover over head and just spam hold melee toons to death.  You can't run, can't fight back, and it takes a god-awful long time to die that way too.  On top of this, the only thing melee toons had going for them were powers like caltrops and web grenades to slow down and get to the ranged damage toons.  They removed web grenades, and caltrops no longer slow movement.  Pretty much if you have a melee toon, which a lot of us do, and spent months and millions outfitting for pvp btw, you enter the pvp zone, get held, and then killed from range, or killed by a stalker while your'e mezzed.  Honestly, it's retarded.

Also, if you were part of the pvp community, you would have been working for the devs for the past number of months on something like the CURB for StarWars pre-cu.  Just like the CURB, someone decided to dumb the game down unbelievably and scrap all the work players did.

You're more objective by far, and that's good on you.  I'm honestly pretty pissed off right now.  Probably the most I've ever been on these boards.

I also don't like how they say they don't have time to put bosses into the mission architect, but they do have time to completely revamp pvp and pve.  I honestly don't believe this.  I don't think it's about time management, I think it's about priorities.

Their current priority seems to be to dumb parts of the game down to appeal to new players, and to consider current players, especially the pvp community, expendable.  It also grinds our beans that they wasted so much time getting us to provide feedback that was then largely disregarded.

So that's my pissed off point of view.  I respect your non-pissed off point of view, and think that both have validity.

Btw, if I sound ticked, it's not at other people in the thread, it's at some decision makers at NCsoft atm.  O.k. some of the posts were aggravating lol, but not really that much in the overall scheme of things.

P.S. Oh btw, I still think this pales in comparison to the shaft known as the NGE.  I really do.  I just see things at NCsoft starting in that direction: game-breaking bug, say one thing do the other, unwanted revamp, expendable playerbase.  It's starting to look ugly, but has a ways to go before it's as disgusting as the NGE.  Hopefully, they'll come to their senses, and get back on a better track.

This may just be silly, but if someones flying and ccing you and your team, why not you know, work together and cc/kill him first?

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!

SWG vets say so!!!!

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Then we got two announcements.  Number 1: MIssion architect will be delayed and will not come out for Issue 13 as originally advertised.  Number 2: The game is going to undergo a complete revamp with the hope of making it more appealing to new players.

MY

EYES

ARE

BURNING!!!

Originally posted by Bladin

This may just be silly, but if someones flying and ccing you and your team, why not you know, work together and cc/kill him first?

Hmm well, this is only one example of the new system being out of whack, and that's only one of many issues I'm highlighting.  It doesn't address the sync bug issue, that it was ignored in beta, the mission architect being pushed back in favour of the game revamp, or the comments about current players being expendable.  Hopefully all of those points are clear enough.

My concern and frustration most definitely isn't just about one specific issue, it's about a number of them that have all happened rather recently I'm afraid.

As for this one example of a problem in the new pvp system though.  Maybe it would help if you knew that I wasn't on a team, and neither was the dominator.  The point was that the new ruleset stripped away from melee toons all their former defenses and counterattacks to flying enemies with ranged holds.  Under the previous ruleset I could have done a number of things to counterattack or evade.  All of these options have been removed from the game or suppressed.  Also, by "options" I mean powers.  In these powers are millions of dollars worth of crafted enhancements that I either quested for, or bought for huge sums of ingame cash.  They are also, of course, crafted enhancement sets, and you may know that whole sets like this give your character bonuses and cost in some cases tens of millions of dollars, or more with some of the rare sets.

Saying that I should have a friend kill the dominator doesn't acknowledge that the new ruleset has rendered me helpless, and dependent on someone else's intervention to survive.  It's a very unwelcome change in the system of play.

It also doesn't acknowledge that much better solutions have been provided to the dev team (at their request) to address pvp issues, and that most of these solutions have been disregarded.

It also doesn't address that at one moment we're told we're being listened to, and the next, we're told that our feedback is irrelevant.  If joining a team, and having a friend kill the dominator would address all of these issues, I'd do it in a heart beat.

 P.S. Cool avatar :)

Originally posted by Torak

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!

SWG vets say so!!!!

 

Hmm well, I seem to remember saying some of the same things around the CU time period in SWG.  These changes are more of that magnitude than the NGE by the way.  I seem to remember a mass exodus from that particular game, around that particular issue.

I then seem to remember saying something about unwanted revamps and bugs around NGE time.  Something about the sky falling, and what do you know, it did -_^.

Tbh, I don't think most players like bugs that render them unable to move or interact with the map server for a month.  I think it's bad for business.  I also don't think it's good to advertise upcoming content, and then delay it in favour of an unwanted revamp.  Also bad for business if you ask me.  I also don't think it's a good idea to try to appeal to new players at the expense of your current players.  Then I think it just sours the deal even further when you first openly tell your current players that they're not relevant, and then later try to tell them that they really are.

I don't really know anyone that would vote for these things as desirable, and I do think they're bound to have a negative impact on this game's success.

I was playing pvp exclusively when they nerfed my wp/em tank's offense and reacted with total indifference to the public outcry, or worse disrespect, all while the c***sucking fanbois cheered their every move. 100+ hours and hundreds of millions of inf and for what? A toothless tiger? No thanks so I quit. You should prolly quit the game too, its not the game you paid for anyway, you'll prolly feel better and those bastards don't deserve another penny.

I guess they are thinking that Champions and DCU will kill them if they don't update the game.

But it can really go 2 ways, they can actually do a good job and make the game better or they might just kill the game off. If they believe it won't survive the launches of the other  games, NC soft probably thinks they have nothing to lose.

Selling a MMO always makes a mess, new people working on it have others idea. But no reason to panic yet, they could do a great job still... To worry is perfectly normal however.

Wow...  I thought even SOE learned enough from the NGE to at least not want to do more of them.

Guess it will take a second Titanic disaster resulting from a NGE to make the industry learn the lesson that players DO NOT LIKE MASSIVE CHANGES.  Nor do existing player bases like being forsaken in the name of "attracting lots of new players".  

And all I can say is any company that hires an exec or manager from SOE is foolish.  With NCSoft being a public company, I suspect a shareholder suit for malfeasence coming, something I wish could have been done to SOE.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Torak

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!

SWG vets say so!!!!

 

 

Hmm well, I seem to remember saying some of the same things around the CU time period in SWG.  These changes are more of that magnitude than the NGE by the way.  I seem to remember a mass exodus from that particular game, around that particular issue.

I then seem to remember saying something about unwanted revamps and bugs around NGE time.  Something about the sky falling, and what do you know, it did -_^.

Tbh, I don't think most players like bugs that render them unable to move or interact with the map server for a month.  I think it's bad for business.  I also don't think it's good to advertise upcoming content, and then delay it in favour of an unwanted revamp.  Also bad for business if you ask me.  I also don't think it's a good idea to try to appeal to new players at the expense of your current players.  Then I think it just sours the deal even further when you first openly tell your current players that they're not relevant, and then later try to tell them that they really are.

I don't really know anyone that would vote for these things as desirable, and I do think they're bound to have a negative impact on this game's success.

Wow, Arc, this IS sounding more and more like the NGE. Especially from the responses you are getting from the people supporting NCSoft.

Obviously, if they do what you are saying they want to do, like the NGE, they will fail. Amazing, the egos in this industry are only outmatched by the ignorance supporting those egos.

First, I'd like to say that I've been playing CoX off and on since beta.

Second, I would like to say that no one who has played CoX extensively should be the least bit surprised at the changes that are coming or proposed.

Cryptic, or more specifically, Jack Emmert, changed the play mechanics of the entire game not once, but twice after it had been released for about a year, starting around Issue 4.

The first round of changes was made specifically to address PvP (even though it was stated that PvP changes would not affect PvE). They included changes to power sets, recharge rates, levels of defense and damage mitigation, as well as the suppression of travel powers.

All completely unnecessary changes. Even for PvP, the changes were unnecessary. They were made largely due to the complaining (read whining) of subscribers who were playing largely support classes (controllers and defenders, to a large extent) who realized that their viability in PvP was limited against specific classes.

As was already pointed out, a large number of subscribers left the game as a result.

The second major round of changes was made to the enhancement system, which Cryptic called "enhancement diversification" (ED).

There were two major end results of these rounds of what were essentially nerfs.

The first result was that the subscriber ended up being vastly less "heroic".

The second result was that the controller class, which was formerly a support class / hybrid is probably the most powerful class in the game.

ED was supposed to be a method to increase the use of enhancements that were rarely slotted into a specific power set by forcing the player to slot enhancements they never wanted.

It was also supposed to set up CoX for the new Invention system.

The first groups of players who tested these systems and found them unnecessary and debilitating to some of the classes were shouted down, told they were idiots, told they were over-reacting, etc.

Changes that were supposed to improve the overall CoX system and make PvP more viable basically resulted in PvP arenas and zones being largely ghost towns.

So I and many others stopped our subs to CoX as a result.

I decided to come back after the Invention system was implemented because I had been told that Inventions basically made up for the idiotic, short-sighted, and ham-fisted ED.

Sort of; if you wanted to grind out the influence and/or instances and missions that provide the materials or new enhancements themselves.

So now they have a new round of changes.

Good. I hope the subscribers who thought the powerset changes, travel suppression, and ED were a good idea are well and truly pissed off; those idiotic changes were what led to the necessity of the Invention system, instead of the benefit of it, which should have been Cryptic / NCSoft's goal.

The Invention system should have been an augmentation and improvement to the existing enhancement system, and they should have created missions and events to challenge those more powerful players who pursued and ground out invention enhancements.

So now I hope some of the subscribers who endorsed those previous system changes are enjoying some frustration right now. They deserve it.

There was nothing wrong with the system that existed on release, barring a few minor power changes. Every system they've introduced since could have been built on that solid foundation, instead of jacking up the entire system a year after release.

I had two level 50s that basically became obsolete after those first game mechanics changes. Yes, it hurts.

Maybe if more players would have been a little bit more far-sighted and thought through the implications of those changes rather than just blindly spouting the CoX party line, the CoX team wouldn't feel like they could keep getting away with this BS.

But no; they didn't, and here you are.

So suck it up; this is nothing new for CoX, it's just more of the same.

It's a shame, because on release the game was just so damn much fun; fast, frenzied, fun to level, interesting missions. Now, more often than not, it feels more like work and less like fun.

Originally posted by Somnulus

First, I'd like to say that I've been playing CoX off and on since beta.

Second, I would like to say that no one who has played CoX extensively should be the least bit surprised at the changes that are coming or proposed.

Cryptic, or more specifically, Jack Emmert, changed the play mechanics of the entire game not once, but twice after it had been released for about a year, starting around Issue 4.

The first round of changes was made specifically to address PvP (even though it was stated that PvP changes would not affect PvE). They included changes to power sets, recharge rates, levels of defense and damage mitigation, as well as the suppression of travel powers.

All completely unnecessary changes. Even for PvP, the changes were unnecessary. They were made largely due to the complaining (read whining) of subscribers who were playing largely support classes (controllers and defenders, to a large extent) who realized that their viability in PvP was limited against specific classes.

As was already pointed out, a large number of subscribers left the game as a result.

The second major round of changes was made to the enhancement system, which Cryptic called "enhancement diversification" (ED).

There were two major end results of these rounds of what were essentially nerfs.

The first result was that the subscriber ended up being vastly less "heroic".

The second result was that the controller class, which was formerly a support class / hybrid is probably the most powerful class in the game.

ED was supposed to be a method to increase the use of enhancements that were rarely slotted into a specific power set by forcing the player to slot enhancements they never wanted.

It was also supposed to set up CoX for the new Invention system.

The first groups of players who tested these systems and found them unnecessary and debilitating to some of the classes were shouted down, told they were idiots, told they were over-reacting, etc.

Changes that were supposed to improve the overall CoX system and make PvP more viable basically resulted in PvP arenas and zones being largely ghost towns.

So I and many others stopped our subs to CoX as a result.

I decided to come back after the Invention system was implemented because I had been told that Inventions basically made up for the idiotic, short-sighted, and ham-fisted ED.

Sort of; if you wanted to grind out the influence and/or instances and missions that provide the materials or new enhancements themselves.

So now they have a new round of changes.

Good. I hope the subscribers who thought the powerset changes, travel suppression, and ED were a good idea are well and truly pissed off; those idiotic changes were what led to the necessity of the Invention system, instead of the benefit of it, which should have been Cryptic / NCSoft's goal.

The Invention system should have been an augmentation and improvement to the existing enhancement system, and they should have created missions and events to challenge those more powerful players who pursued and ground out invention enhancements.

So now I hope some of the subscribers who endorsed those previous system changes are enjoying some frustration right now. They deserve it.

There was nothing wrong with the system that existed on release, barring a few minor power changes. Every system they've introduced since could have been built on that solid foundation, instead of jacking up the entire system a year after release.

I had two level 50s that basically became obsolete after those first game mechanics changes. Yes, it hurts.

Maybe if more players would have been a little bit more far-sighted and thought through the implications of those changes rather than just blindly spouting the CoX party line, the CoX team wouldn't feel like they could keep getting away with this BS.

But no; they didn't, and here you are.

So suck it up; this is nothing new for CoX, it's just more of the same.

It's a shame, because on release the game was just so damn much fun; fast, frenzied, fun to level, interesting missions. Now, more often than not, it feels more like work and less like fun.

Sounds exactly like the NGE.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Torak

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!

SWG vets say so!!!!

 

 

Hmm well, I seem to remember saying some of the same things around the CU time period in SWG.  These changes are more of that magnitude than the NGE by the way.  I seem to remember a mass exodus from that particular game, around that particular issue.

I then seem to remember saying something about unwanted revamps and bugs around NGE time.  Something about the sky falling, and what do you know, it did -_^.

Tbh, I don't think most players like bugs that render them unable to move or interact with the map server for a month.  I think it's bad for business.  I also don't think it's good to advertise upcoming content, and then delay it in favour of an unwanted revamp.  Also bad for business if you ask me.  I also don't think it's a good idea to try to appeal to new players at the expense of your current players.  Then I think it just sours the deal even further when you first openly tell your current players that they're not relevant, and then later try to tell them that they really are.

I don't really know anyone that would vote for these things as desirable, and I do think they're bound to have a negative impact on this game's success.

I guess we will see....

This game is so beyond needing to worry about success....its like 5 years old. Its dying anyway. People are grumbling for server merges and its about to get its ass handed to it by 2 new superhero themed games.

Every MMO goes through changes. Lineage 2 was just recently castrated. WoW is not even close to the game I played at launch. Vanguard was totally changed, SWG, EQII again not even close to the game I purchased at launch, DAoC - totally destroyed by changes years ago...I could go on but you get my point.

Whatcha gonna do? Unsub if you don't like it, simple as that. The strength of our community lies with our sub dollar. Wait for the changes, if you don't like them, take your money away. Who cares once you leave, move on to something else.

You guys should know that every MMO does this by now. Play'em while they last and you DO like them because they will change.

As far as the ignorant comment directed at me from the other guy (who didn't have the nads to just write my name), the only ones "ignorant" are the ones who think MMOs are not going to change and they will evolve in a direction that they individually approve of.

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3

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Originally posted by wjrasmussen

 

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Originally posted by ArcAngel3
 
I also read about a year ago that a former VP at SOE was going over to NCsoft.  Is that just a scary coincidence?  Really I'm not sure.

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Prove it.
 
 

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 Hey someone did find it.  I can't connect this mess in CoH to that particular VP, and that's fine.  I was just wondering out loud if he had a role to play, given his employ at SOE when SWG went to hell.   It would seem not, and that's cool.  Hopefully the guy will have a better run with Cryptic than he did under Smed.  Honestly, I'm happy for him.
As for this being hot air.

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Originally posted by Somnulus

First, I'd like to say that I've been playing CoX off and on since beta.

Second, I would like to say that no one who has played CoX extensively should be the least bit surprised at the changes that are coming or proposed.

Cryptic, or more specifically, Jack Emmert, changed the play mechanics of the entire game not once, but twice after it had been released for about a year, starting around Issue 4.

The first round of changes was made specifically to address PvP (even though it was stated that PvP changes would not affect PvE). They included changes to power sets, recharge rates, levels of defense and damage mitigation, as well as the suppression of travel powers.

All completely unnecessary changes. Even for PvP, the changes were unnecessary. They were made largely due to the complaining (read whining) of subscribers who were playing largely support classes (controllers and defenders, to a large extent) who realized that their viability in PvP was limited against specific classes.

As was already pointed out, a large number of subscribers left the game as a result.

The second major round of changes was made to the enhancement system, which Cryptic called "enhancement diversification" (ED).

There were two major end results of these rounds of what were essentially nerfs.

The first result was that the subscriber ended up being vastly less "heroic".

The second result was that the controller class, which was formerly a support class / hybrid is probably the most powerful class in the game.

ED was supposed to be a method to increase the use of enhancements that were rarely slotted into a specific power set by forcing the player to slot enhancements they never wanted.

It was also supposed to set up CoX for the new Invention system.

The first groups of players who tested these systems and found them unnecessary and debilitating to some of the classes were shouted down, told they were idiots, told they were over-reacting, etc.

Changes that were supposed to improve the overall CoX system and make PvP more viable basically resulted in PvP arenas and zones being largely ghost towns.

So I and many others stopped our subs to CoX as a result.

I decided to come back after the Invention system was implemented because I had been told that Inventions basically made up for the idiotic, short-sighted, and ham-fisted ED.

Sort of; if you wanted to grind out the influence and/or instances and missions that provide the materials or new enhancements themselves.

So now they have a new round of changes.

Good. I hope the subscribers who thought the powerset changes, travel suppression, and ED were a good idea are well and truly pissed off; those idiotic changes were what led to the necessity of the Invention system, instead of the benefit of it, which should have been Cryptic / NCSoft's goal.

The Invention system should have been an augmentation and improvement to the existing enhancement system, and they should have created missions and events to challenge those more powerful players who pursued and ground out invention enhancements.

So now I hope some of the subscribers who endorsed those previous system changes are enjoying some frustration right now. They deserve it.

There was nothing wrong with the system that existed on release, barring a few minor power changes. Every system they've introduced since could have been built on that solid foundation, instead of jacking up the entire system a year after release.

I had two level 50s that basically became obsolete after those first game mechanics changes. Yes, it hurts.

Maybe if more players would have been a little bit more far-sighted and thought through the implications of those changes rather than just blindly spouting the CoX party line, the CoX team wouldn't feel like they could keep getting away with this BS.

But no; they didn't, and here you are.

So suck it up; this is nothing new for CoX, it's just more of the same.

It's a shame, because on release the game was just so damn much fun; fast, frenzied, fun to level, interesting missions. Now, more often than not, it feels more like work and less like fun.
 

/Applause

Like people have said above there has been lots of (IMHO) bad decisions about COX and lots of the  player base have been annoyed from time to time. The inclusion of PVP and changes to PVE was my biggest annoynace though the pointles recipe and auction house was also a stupid move.

Seriously ! If I wanted to grind for recipes/gear/yada yada da/....  I'd go play WOW. Everyone with an ounce of sense knows it is better to build a PVP and PVE system 'integrated'  from release and not go doing half arsed changes post release to attract the WOW kiddie winkies idea of what PVP is. But meh I digress... 

That said I always come back to the game for the PVE aspects. So currently some of the above issues  do not surprise me one bit.  Though it seems a little blatant if the part about "not for the current player base and will annoy them"  is true. Anyways if it annoys me then this time I will most likely leave for good. If I dont then I will punish by removing my subscription  for a month or two. This is not the first time and may not be the last time this has been done.

Incidently my friend is not happy with the upcoming changes to his powerset. Rock tanker or something.... .. but he is more involved in this game then I am... I'm too cynical with it

Oh yeah and some of the fanbois for this game are seriously 'needing of the help'. I could imagine this being intense on the main forums. You could wrap a trud un a cape and fanbois love it. Not that COX is a turd just occasionally prone to farting in my face in an annoying manner.

But hey....  whats new...   Its all the same only the name of the developers has changed.... :)

I ritten this fast of.. so I may edit spellies laters

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Bladin

This may just be silly, but if someones flying and ccing you and your team, why not you know, work together and cc/kill him first?

 

Hmm well, this is only one example of the new system being out of whack, and that's only one of many issues I'm highlighting.  It doesn't address the sync bug issue, that it was ignored in beta, the mission architect being pushed back in favour of the game revamp, or the comments about current players being expendable.  Hopefully all of those points are clear enough.

It's not like they purposefully made the bug, just to frustrate people.  They just weren't able to fix it right away for the release of the issue.

My concern and frustration most definitely isn't just about one specific issue, it's about a number of them that have all happened rather recently I'm afraid.

As for this one example of a problem in the new pvp system though.  Maybe it would help if you knew that I wasn't on a team, and neither was the dominator.  The point was that the new ruleset stripped away from melee toons all their former defenses and counterattacks to flying enemies with ranged holds.  Under the previous ruleset I could have done a number of things to counterattack or evade.  All of these options have been removed from the game or suppressed.  Also, by "options" I mean powers.  In these powers are millions of dollars worth of crafted enhancements that I either quested for, or bought for huge sums of ingame cash.  They are also, of course, crafted enhancement sets, and you may know that whole sets like this give your character bonuses and cost in some cases tens of millions of dollars, or more with some of the rare sets.

While it is a issue in 1v1, there were many problems with many classes.  It's also worth mentioning that the duration of holds and cc were reduced as well to balance out the new resistance changes.

Saying that I should have a friend kill the dominator doesn't acknowledge that the new ruleset has rendered me helpless, and dependent on someone else's intervention to survive.  It's a very unwelcome change in the system of play.

Are you saying you didn't have any other builds completely destroy you before? It's not that hard to bring in another player, its good vs evil, not this guy vs this guy.

It also doesn't acknowledge that much better solutions have been provided to the dev team (at their request) to address pvp issues, and that most of these solutions have been disregarded.

This is where we disagree, players don't really know the game as well as they think.  Just look back in the day when the nerf storms came pouring in, people screamed doom, they said wtf you guys are ruining the game.

Yet, every single nerf, every single change, has been a positive change for the game in the long term.  Players only see the short term, like How i play now will have to change, and I don't like it.  But is it all right to just balance the game around that style of opinion?

It also doesn't address that at one moment we're told we're being listened to, and the next, we're told that our feedback is irrelevant.  If joining a team, and having a friend kill the dominator would address all of these issues, I'd do it in a heart beat.

The thing is, you are being listened to, but that doesn't mean they have to actually follow your advice.  I can't honestly say this is better or worse for the game.  Since I've always said that CoX PvP is the worst pvp system ever implemented into a mmorpg, and that I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Who are they to balance for?  The fans, or the people who might like it if it changes?  The best answer is the perfect middle ground that fans like and new people will like.  But it's not always as easy as that.  A couple months down the line we can all go back to these topics and see how the changes affected the pvp game, and how it is then. 

Either way it's a far cry different then anything that happened in SWG

 P.S. Cool avatar :)

 Thank you ^_^

CoX has only gotten better in the time since the NCSoft takeover. There have always been problems here and there, but there is definitely nothing happening really to warrant such a negative outlook. The positives far outweigh any negatives so far.