Some of you may know that Cryptic and NCsoft parted ways about a year back now.  After this happened, NCsoft started saying things like, "now we can take this game to a whole new level."  Tbh, lol, this sounded a bit like SOE's comments around the time of the NGE.  I wasn't too worried though, CoH has always been a quality product with an emphasis on customer satisfaction.

Well, sadly, that's changed.  After the departure of Cryptic, we got Issue 12.  For the first time ever, this introduced a game-wide, game-breaking bug.  Thousands of players on various servers and systems were completely out of sync with the map server for a month's time.  These player's couldn't move, engage in combat or interact with the world.  Shades of NGE I'm afraid.

Oh well, maybe that was just a one time glitch, and there's still nothing to worry about.  I wish that was true, but then NCsoft advertised a much requested mission creator for Issue 13.  It's fair to say that everyone was very excited about this promised content.  I went out and bought a new 60 day time card so that I could play it.

Then we got two announcements.  Number 1: MIssion architect will be delayed and will not come out for Issue 13 as originally advertised.  Number 2: The game is going to undergo a complete revamp with the hope of making it more appealing to new players.

NCsoft couldn't really be going in this direction after SOE set such a shining example of what not to do with an MMO could they?

Well earlier this week, both Matt Miller and the community rep (Lighthouse) said that the game changes are not designed for current players.  They expect that current players will be unhappy, but that's okay because of all the new players that the unwanted revamps will bring in.

Lighthouse since retracted those statements, and apologized for them, saying that he was mistaken, but Matt Miller's announcement is still up on the main website.  It's very clear that the pvp game especially is being completely dismantled, slowed down, and dumbed down, with the hope that it will appeal to a new playerbase.

It doesn't matter that character building and outfiting your hero with costly and hard to find enhancements is the main draw of the game.  All of this work and effort put into questing, crafting and character building is considered expendable by NCsoft's current leadership. 

I also read about a year ago that a former VP at SOE was going over to [one of the parent companies of CoH--edited for accuracy].  Is that just a scary coincidence?  Really I'm not sure. [Now I am sure, this move has nothing to do with recent events, as far as I know].

And, now the forum wars have begun...of course.  People that are losing everything they enjoy and spent the last 2 or 3 years building are being insulted and shouted down by people who don't want their game to get negative press, even if it's honest.  Again, following the pattern set by SOE, the pattern of what not to do to an MMO, and what not to do to an online community.

So, I've said many glowing things about CoH and NCsoft over the past few years, but this is not the same company and not the same game any longer.  I can no longer say positive things about them in good conscience.  In fact, I feel compelled to tell fellow gamers about what's going on, with the hope that you can avoid the disaster and spare yourself some misery as well as your hard earned cash.

Wow that is horrible. Trust me as a former swg player when I say I feel your pain.

It still amazes me that these companies continue to dumb down their games in the hope of attracting new people, completely unaware that the mentally challenged target audience is already saturated with MMOs, yet there is a complete lack of intelligent, thought provoking MMOs.

First, CoH is a great game, had a relatively smooth release, and the innovative chracter creator is the standard to beat, IMO.

But, it's been around for a while now, so if it's headed into oblivion, se la vie, it had a good run.

If what the OP says is true, seems like a very bad idea.

Why not just release a new game? That's what I thought about NGE. Why not just make it Galaxies Part Deux or something, and leave the original alone till it runs out of gas?

New players will perceive that this is an old game cause it was released a while back, and old players will be pissed because you changed their game. That seems like a lose lose situation.

How much woujld it cost to make a SWG pre-NGE clone, how many people played SWG pre-NGE and would pay to play such a game, and does that equal a profit? I can't imagine why no one is doing this. Sure, it won't compete with WoW, and you won't make a Billion dollars, but seems like it would be profitable.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Some of you may know that Cryptic and NCsoft parted ways about a year back now.  After this happened, NCsoft started saying things like, "now we can take this game to a whole new level."  Tbh, lol, this sounded a bit like SOE's comments around the time of the NGE.  I wasn't too worried though, CoH has always been a quality product with an emphasis on customer satisfaction.

Well, sadly, that's changed.  After the departure of Cryptic, we got Issue 12.  For the first time ever, this introduced a game-wide, game-breaking bug.  Thousands of players on various servers and systems were completely out of sync with the map server for a month's time.  These player's couldn't move, engage in combat or interact with the world.  Shades of NGE I'm afraid.

Oh well, maybe that was just a one time glitch, and there's still nothing to worry about.  I wish that was true, but then NCsoft advertised a much requested mission creator for Issue 13.  It's fair to say that everyone was very excited about this promised content.  I went out and bought a new 60 day time card so that I could play it.

Then we got two announcements.  Number 1: MIssion architect will be delayed and will not come out for Issue 13 as originally advertised.  Number 2: The game is going to undergo a complete revamp with the hope of making it more appealing to new players.

NCsoft couldn't really be going in this direction after SOE set such a shining example of what not to do with an MMO could they?

Well earlier this week, both Matt Miller and the community rep (Lighthouse) said that the game changes are not designed for current players.  They expect that current players will be unhappy, but that's okay because of all the new players that the unwanted revamps will bring in.

Lighthouse since retracted those statements, and apologized for them, saying that he was mistaken, but Matt Miller's announcement is still up on the main website.  It's very clear that the pvp game especially is being completely dismantled, slowed down, and dumbed down, with the hope that it will appeal to a new playerbase.

It doesn't matter that character building and outfiting your hero with costly and hard to find enhancements is the main draw of the game.  All of this work and effort put into questing, crafting and character building is considered expendable by NCsoft's current leadership. 

I also read about a year ago that a former VP at SOE was going over to NCsoft.  Is that just a scary coincidence?  Really I'm not sure.

And, now the forum wars have begun...of course.  People that are losing everything they enjoy and spent the last 2 or 3 years building are being insulted and shouted down by people who don't want their game to get negative press, even if it's honest.  Again, following the pattern set by SOE, the pattern of what not to do to an MMO, and what not to do to an online community.

So, I've said many glowing things about CoH and NCsoft over the past few years, but this is not the same company and not the same game any longer.  I can no longer say positive things about them in good conscience.  In fact, I feel compelled to tell fellow gamers about what's going on, with the hope that you can avoid the disaster and spare yourself some misery as well as your hard earned cash.

I am sorry to say but this whole post is a bunch of hot air with little substance behind it.  

But I will still addressed it.

*Issue 12 other than the bug (which was fixed) was a success.  Most MMORPG's have multiple bugs in an expansion that could be considered game breaking.  This by the way for those that do not know was a free expansion to CoX universe.

*Mission architect is one of the most ambitious ideas they have EVER tried and possible one of the more innovative things attempted in the MMORPG genre in recent memory.  It is not something that can be done so easily over night.  It is better they launch this feature when it is ready, not with a bunch of bugs you supposedly care about (you have already contradicted yourself).

*The revamp of the game is necessary to add in the new features in the near future just like when they swung the nerf bat years ago which lead to having room for the invention system to be put in place.

*PVP game was poor overall compared to other PVP systems in other MMORPG's IMVHO.  The only highlight of the existing PVP system in CoX is that it involves combat that is fast paced due to travel powers.  But that in way devalues the PVP from reaching its pinnacle.  I am not a proponent of the other extreme which castle is suggesting (statue fighting).  A middle ground does need to be found though because the current PVP system is very lackluster.

*There isn't a single MMORPG where your work isn't considered expendable (You know what you are doing by agreeing to a loose binding EULA).  An example?  WoW is erasing all the arena points this Tuesday accumulated by the players participating in the arena.

To be honest if they make the changes I have been craving for (mission variety and a revamped PVP system) it would motivate me to return to the game.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Some of you may know that Cryptic and NCsoft parted ways about a year back now.  After this happened, NCsoft started saying things like, "now we can take this game to a whole new level."  Tbh, lol, this sounded a bit like SOE's comments around the time of the NGE.  I wasn't too worried though, CoH has always been a quality product with an emphasis on customer satisfaction.

Well, sadly, that's changed.  After the departure of Cryptic, we got Issue 12.  For the first time ever, this introduced a game-wide, game-breaking bug.  Thousands of players on various servers and systems were completely out of sync with the map server for a month's time.  These player's couldn't move, engage in combat or interact with the world.  Shades of NGE I'm afraid.

Oh well, maybe that was just a one time glitch, and there's still nothing to worry about.  I wish that was true, but then NCsoft advertised a much requested mission creator for Issue 13.  It's fair to say that everyone was very excited about this promised content.  I went out and bought a new 60 day time card so that I could play it.

Then we got two announcements.  Number 1: MIssion architect will be delayed and will not come out for Issue 13 as originally advertised.  Number 2: The game is going to undergo a complete revamp with the hope of making it more appealing to new players.

NCsoft couldn't really be going in this direction after SOE set such a shining example of what not to do with an MMO could they?

Well earlier this week, both Matt Miller and the community rep (Lighthouse) said that the game changes are not designed for current players.  They expect that current players will be unhappy, but that's okay because of all the new players that the unwanted revamps will bring in.

Lighthouse since retracted those statements, and apologized for them, saying that he was mistaken, but Matt Miller's announcement is still up on the main website.  It's very clear that the pvp game especially is being completely dismantled, slowed down, and dumbed down, with the hope that it will appeal to a new playerbase.

It doesn't matter that character building and outfiting your hero with costly and hard to find enhancements is the main draw of the game.  All of this work and effort put into questing, crafting and character building is considered expendable by NCsoft's current leadership. 

I also read about a year ago that a former VP at SOE was going over to NCsoft.  Is that just a scary coincidence?  Really I'm not sure.

And, now the forum wars have begun...of course.  People that are losing everything they enjoy and spent the last 2 or 3 years building are being insulted and shouted down by people who don't want their game to get negative press, even if it's honest.  Again, following the pattern set by SOE, the pattern of what not to do to an MMO, and what not to do to an online community.

So, I've said many glowing things about CoH and NCsoft over the past few years, but this is not the same company and not the same game any longer.  I can no longer say positive things about them in good conscience.  In fact, I feel compelled to tell fellow gamers about what's going on, with the hope that you can avoid the disaster and spare yourself some misery as well as your hard earned cash.

This sounds to me like a lot of tin-foil hat hyperbole.

---

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I also read about a year ago that a former VP at SOE was going over to NCsoft.  Is that just a scary coincidence?  Really I'm not sure.

---

I don't really see NCSoft following in SOEs footsteps.  1st is how they deal with development.  They dropped all thier small titles and are now exclusively working on major titles.  On the other hand SOE is picking up failing developments.

2nd is how they deal with customers.  SOEs GMs treat thier player base like shit, respond extremely late to support tickets, and don't follow up claims.  NCSoft GMs trear thier player base like shit, respond extremely late to support tickets, and follow up claims then saying they cannot do anything.

3rd is how many games NCSoft has reaching over 1 million subscriptions.  SOE has 1, Everquest.  NCSoft has Lineage, Lineage II, and Guild Wars.

4th is how much money NCSoft invests into thier games.  SOE invests in many interns to do thier work and onnly have to pay 15k salaries to them, giving thier games a budget of $10 million or less.  NCSoft has 3 games in development all with budgets over $100 million.  AION sets a new budget record for a game at $300 million.  In a comment ArenaNet responds, "We can outdo that."

Also there are a few larger mmo companies that are redesigning thier old games.  In alot of cases its for the better.  Such as the Korean Grinders, its always better when they redesign.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

 

---

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

I also read about a year ago that a former VP at SOE was going over to NCsoft.  Is that just a scary coincidence?  Really I'm not sure.

---

Prove it.

 

 

I believe this is what he was talking about. However, thats cryptic not NCsoft.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

 

---

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

I also read about a year ago that a former VP at SOE was going over to NCsoft.  Is that just a scary coincidence?  Really I'm not sure.

---

Prove it.

 

 

 Hey someone did find it.  I can't connect this mess in CoH to that particular VP, and that's fine.  I was just wondering out loud if he had a role to play, given his employ at SOE when SWG went to hell.   It would seem not, and that's cool.  Hopefully the guy will have a better run with Cryptic than he did under Smed.  Honestly, I'm happy for him.

As for this being hot air.

Well, the sync bug did exist for a month, it did affect thousands of players, and it did render them unable to move, engage in combat, or interact with the world.  No hot air there I'm afraid, and believe me I wish there was.  The game lost some good people over that fiasco, and it's only minimized by those responsible for it, or by those who weren't affected by it, in my experience.  To those who were affected it was a wasted month of complete frustration.  AND the issue was highlighted in beta, and allowed to go live anyways.

As for the promised architect.  I'm afraid that's not hot air either.  It was highly anticipated, and held back allegedly because they didn't have time to allow people to customize bosses.  However, it would seem that they do have time to completely revamp the game instead.   They could have put in the architect as advertised, and added custom bosses in Issue 14, but nope, gave us an uwanted revamp instead.

Regarding the revamp, also not hot air, and I really wish it was.  In fact, I was being kind.  What happened was that current PvPer's were asked to work together to troubleshoot PvP and provide input to the dev team.  So we did this for months.  People tried all the zones, numerous builds, arena combat, the works.  People compiled a list of all known issues that interfere with PvP or make it a really steep learning curve.  All of this input was supplied to the dev team, and the current revamp scraps almost all of it.

Instead of keeping the current game that people enjoy, and addressing the issues we spent months finding and highlighting, someone up high in the NCsoft foodchain decided to scrap all the work, scrap the game, and start from scratch.  Hot air?  No, cold hard, and very unfortunate facts.

When it soon goes live it will be slow, boring and broken, and people will pay to beta test it in live for months to come.  How do I know this?  Because we were just told that only the foundation of a new PvP game will be released in Issue 13.  People have been beta testing it (open and closed) now for more than a month, and it is a god-awful mess.

As for NCsoft not being like SOE, a few months ago, I would have strongly agreed with you.  However, since the sync bug, architect and unwanted revamp issues have come up all in a row, I'm forced to come to a different conclusion.  It's a real shame too, I had over two and a half good years in that game, before Cryptic left, and before NCsoft decided that current players are expendable.

Well, you got hit by a bug, shit happens and it's already fixed.

Originally posted by Ephimero

Well, you got hit by a bug, shit happens and it's already fixed.

Lol I didn't get hit by it.  Many of my friends did, and some of them left.  Why?  Because they couldn't play the game, at all, for a month, AND because it was reported in Beta and ignored.
 

If you think this is what I'm talking about though, you didn't read my thread.  This is about a game-breaking bug, advertising something and then not delivering, AND most importantly an unwanted game revamp that has the Exec saying they don't care if the current players don't like it.

Seems to me everyone's getting hit by more than "a bug."  I've played that game with costume bugs, for example, for the entire 2 plus years.  Not a problem.  Unable to interact with the map, at all, and having this go live despite being flagged in beta?  Totally different story.  Unwanted game revamp and current players expendable?  Totally different story.

If you keep saying stuff like that, people are going to think you can't read.

Oh by the way, NCsoft is on a big marketting campaign to coincide with the revamp.  Need to get the word out to all the replacement players after all.  So, you can expect all kinds of marketting posts popping up saying that the veteran CoH players who are leaving due to the revamp are full of it.  I've never seen that before tho lol.  Back to following in SOE's footsteps, even with that.

"There's no problem here, we're actually responding to player feedback (oh you mean we said this revamp isn't for current players...crap).  Well anyways, the changes are awesome, and it's sure to be a hit now that we're making the game available to Mac users.  Don't listen to disgruntled players who are leaving, they obviously just can't accept change."  Nope, never heard that before -_^.

Fasten your seatbelts, here we go again...

First, your quote regarding SWG is hysterical. Second, I have long hated the dev bastards of coh and their seemingly endless nerfing of toons that people work so hard on. Floyd "ASStle" Grubb, a more appropriately named man I have never seen, seems little more than a slovenly postule of a man bent on swinging his e-peen around to make him feel like he's doing something. Worse than him is probably the forum fanbois who seem to enjoy basting it. Approving every nerf as if handed down from on high. Emmert had nerfed the 2004 Game of the Year into a shell of its former self to the loss of more than 60% of its previous subscriberbase and still they are not satisfied.  How do you nerf a feature 4 years after its introduced? Even if you weren't in charge before to do so, whats done is done and the game works fine. Yet the idea of introducing new villain groups eludes them. The playerbase has to raise a stink about it before they even conceive of it. Dev asshats.

I never understand arguments like these. SOE is light years ahead of NCSoft. Sony has, and will continue to, rebrand and develop SOE into a much more lucrative extention. It just took them a little while to reaffirm that there is a very lucrative and emerging market worth investing in with SOE. I can honestly say SOE's customer service is spectacularly better than it ever was, even a year ago. NCsoft simply doesn't have the financial backing to compete with companies like SOE, Blizzard, or Bioware. I would argue Sony will continue to refine it's entertainment segment while NCSoft will slowly fade into the backdrop of medicore gaming companies.

Watch them get crushed as companies like zenimaxonline.com/ and MMO companies with simply better development teams and backing, produce better quality games.

That's about it, I just hate NCSoft.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but NCsoft has more financial backing than all of the companies you've just mentioned, excepting Blizzard. Mainly because they keep selling their games at a higher rate than the rest.

Check out their Q3 financial report and tell me which SoE game has better sales.

Originally posted by Ephimero

Sorry to burst your bubble, but NCsoft has more financial backing than all of the companies you've just mentioned, excepting Blizzard. Mainly because they keep selling their games at a higher rate than the rest.

Check out their Q3 financial report and tell me which SoE game has better sales.

SoE is backed by Sony, which is a huge multinational conglemerate.

Bioware is backed by EA the #2 gaming software company in the world

Actiblizz (Vivendi) is the  #1 gaming software company in the world.

Frankly SOE never has to sell another game to have more financial backing than NCsoft.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Ephimero

Sorry to burst your bubble, but NCsoft has more financial backing than all of the companies you've just mentioned, excepting Blizzard. Mainly because they keep selling their games at a higher rate than the rest.

Check out their Q3 financial report and tell me which SoE game has better sales.

 

SoE is backed by Sony, which is a huge multinational conglemerate.

Bioware is backed by EA the #2 gaming software company in the world

Actiblizz (Vivendi) is the  #1 gaming software company in the world.

Frankly SOE never has to sell another game to have more financial backing than NCsoft.

True, those companies behind them are huge, but their MMORPG budgets are limited by the publishers, something NCsoft doesnt have to worry about.

Can Sony outbudget NCsoft, most likely yes, will they? With their actual income from MMO's, I doubt it.

so um what are they doing to the game thats in the footsteps of the NGE( I assume thats what your alluding to).

all i see is a rant about PVP, no offense but PVP in that game sucked so i could care less about that change ... anything else? or are you just one of those chicken littles that with any change cries about how the world is going to end.

Originally posted by Ephimero

 

True, those companies behind them are huge, but their MMORPG budgets are limited by the publishers, something NCsoft doesnt have to worry about.

Can Sony outbudget NCsoft, most likely yes, will they? With their actual income from MMO's, I doubt it.

Doesn't matter where the money comes from. If SOE can develop a game they can sell corporate on, stranger things have happened, the money will flow. NCSoft can't do that, hence they're closing down less profitable properties. If CoH/CoV can't develop enough of a new following to bring in the bucks it's going to get the axe. The current player base isn't lage enogh to justify  the overhead, so the game will be changed for better or worse.  If they lose some players in the process so be it.

That's almost the same as saying that NCsoft investors could invest a bit more and then NCsoft would have a higher budget.

It all comes down to profit, if the invesors/Publishers don't see a huge income out of their past investions, they are most likely going to reduce risks. And it's undeniable that NCsoft has more profit than any of those gaming companies in the MMORPG market, excepting Blizzard.

Originally posted by Ravanos

so um what are they doing to the game thats in the footsteps of the NGE( I assume thats what your alluding to).

all i see is a rant about PVP, no offense but PVP in that game sucked so i could care less about that change ... anything else? or are you just one of those chicken littles that with any change cries about how the world is going to end.

The pvp revamp is actually the third example of SOE-like developments.  (This is more like the CU than the NGE in my mind btw.)  Look again, and you may see game breaking bug ignored in beta, expansion advertised then not delivered, unwanted PvP AND PVE revamp, and chucking out all the work players did for devs regarding game improvements.  Think CURB and you'll know what I mean.  Also, the Exec for the game said they know that the current players don't like or want the revamp, but he doesn't care.  So he's chucking out the current players with the hope of enticing a new, larger group of players to come in.  Oh yes, and after admitting this, the community rep then said this was an error, they are in fact making the changes in view of current player feedback. 

Re. chicken little. Yeah I was one of the people that told SOE their NGE revamp was going to kill the game, and drive out hundreds of thousands of players.  Sometimes when someone says the sky is falling, it's best to seek shelter first, and criticize later.

Btw, I'm posting this for people that want to be aware of how MMO companies are treating their customers atm.  If you want to believe they're doing good business, that's okay by me, by all means go play their game, see for yourself.  

P.S. I found the comment from the community rep where he admitted chucking out the current players in favour of a new crowd: "We knew that the current PvP community wasn't likely to react well to the changes as they wern't who we were making changes for, so it's understandable that there is continuing complaints from that segment."

After making this statement, he then retracted it, saying "oops what I meant to say what that the changes are in fact in response to the current pvp community's feedback."  And, as he's retracting it, his boss is posting his own version of the retracted statement on the main website, saying once again that current players won't be happy, but they're doing it anyways to reach out to new people.

So, not only are they doing on unwanted revamp of the entire game (PVE and PVP), not just one thing, or even one system, the whole game, but now they're also lying about it, contradicting themselves and contradicting each other.  It's turning into a circus. (Edited btw to try to keep my frustration with NCsoft from spilling over onto other gamers, my apologies for the earlier tone).

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Ravanos

so um what are they doing to the game thats in the footsteps of the NGE( I assume thats what your alluding to).

all i see is a rant about PVP, no offense but PVP in that game sucked so i could care less about that change ... anything else? or are you just one of those chicken littles that with any change cries about how the world is going to end.

 

I'm starting to think that some people frequenting this forum can't or refuse to read.  The pvp revamp is the third example of NGE-like developments.  Look again, and you may see game breaking bug ignored in beta, expansion advertised then not delivered, unwanted PvP AND PVE revamp, and chucking out all the work players did for devs regarding game improvements.  Think CURB and you'll know what I mean.  Also, the Exec for the game said they know that the current players don't like or want the revamp, but he doesn't care.  So he's chucking out the current players with the hope of enticing a new, larger group of players to come in.  Oh yes, and after admitting this, the community rep then said this was an error, they are in fact making the changes in view of current player feedback.  Now sound familar?  One change, and the sky is falling lol, hardly the case here.

Re. chicken little. Yeah I was one of the people that told SOE their NGE revamp was going to kill the game, and drive out hundreds of thousands of players.  You're right, I must be crazy -_^.

This is for people that want to be aware of how MMO companies are treating their customers atm.  If you want to believe they're doing good business, by all means go play their game, see for yourself.  Enjoy the ride.

P.S. I found the comment from the community rep where he admitted chucking out the current players in favour of a new crowd: "We knew that the current PvP community wasn't likely to react well to the changes as they wern't who we were making changes for, so it's understandable that there is continuing complaints from that segment."

After making this statement, he then retracted it, saying "oops what I meant to say what that the changes are in fact in response to the current pvp community's feedback."  And, as he's retracting it, his boss is saying what the community rep said in the first place, that yeah the current players won't like it, but we're doing it anyways in the hope of making the game more appealing to new players.

So, not only are they doing on unwanted revamp of the entire game (PVE and PVP), not just one thing, or even one system, the whole game, but now they're also lying about it, contradicting themselves and contradicting each other lol.  It's turning into a circus.

Arc,

First, let me just say I've followed your posts in the SWG forums and have enjoyed them quite a bit. You bring a lot of insight and strong arguments to the table there. Your posts always make for good and thought-provokings reads.

I was there for the NGE back in the day and landed in CoX right after that. I follow the CoX o-forums daily and I just can't seem to draw as strong a comparison as you have.

Sure, they're revamping pvp and a number of folks aren't happy. But from what I've read, it's to make melee toons more involved in combat and cut down the FOTM pvp builds. We both know ranged ATs are at a huge advantage as it stands now, so would changes to benefit melee toons (other than stalkers) be that bad? And would seeing more variety than /nrg blasters, /mind doms with their TK power, and stalkers in pvp be a bad thing? Granted, I haven't been able to test the pvp changes yet because we just hit open beta for I13, but to me it seems it's a move to add more diversity to the pvp choices regarding ATs and their effectiveness. Sure, it opens the pvp game up to a larger crowd (the more casual pvp market) and means the hardcore pvpers might lose a bit more often. Is it bad to level the playing field a bit?

Sure, it's going to diminish the accomplishments of some hardcore pvpers and that's a shame, but that happens to all of us in games. Usually it comes in the form of nerfs. But in the NGE, major accomplishments were removed when whole classes were removed and we could no longer play our favorite toons. It's not like they're now removing blasters and forcing us to play a sloppy version of a defender/corrupter hybrid instead.

Let's also not forget the changes they were going to make to the ancillary/patron powers. Originally, each pool was going to lose a power or two and have a new one or two refitted to take their places. There was such an outcry this week that Friday the devs changed their minds after listening to the players. They're now going to leave the original APP/PPP as they are and add a new power to most of them. They actually listened to the player base and found a better solution -- definitely not the kind of thing SWG is noted for. They realized it was better to just add the new powers, which promotes even more diversity, instead of taking away things players actually enjoy.

As for the Architect, I think they were a bit too ambitious trying to schedule it for the very next issue. Moving it back to I14 isn't a dealbreaker to me because they've said they want to make sure they do it right (I believe it's also schedule for 1Q of 2009, so hopefully it's not too far away). If they half-arsed it just to get it into I13, everyone would be disappointed (and rushing things before they're ready is an old-school SOE tactic, as we both know).

If memory serves, the last post I read from a red name said they wanted us to be able to customize the bosses in the missions and be able to add characters of our own as npcs to missions. To me, if they delay the architect an issue to flush that feature out and improve the architect, I'm cool with that. Now, if it continues to get pushed back several issues, I'll have a problem with it.

They've added more ATs and more power sets, unlike with the NGE. They've promoted more diversity in the game and, to me, made it more complex by giving us so many more options for characters and power combinations.

I agree with the sync bug. That was a big bust for the people it affected. But it was fixed (unlike many bugs still in SWG that exist from the pre-cu and cu days). And to me, NCSoft still puts out a much better product than the one you mentioned. I just don't see the current changes in the game or the devs' plan for the game as being on the same level of the NGE and the current SWG devs.

Perhaps that means we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Harleyrider

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Ravanos

so um what are they doing to the game thats in the footsteps of the NGE( I assume thats what your alluding to).

all i see is a rant about PVP, no offense but PVP in that game sucked so i could care less about that change ... anything else? or are you just one of those chicken littles that with any change cries about how the world is going to end.

 

I'm starting to think that some people frequenting this forum can't or refuse to read.  The pvp revamp is the third example of NGE-like developments.  Look again, and you may see game breaking bug ignored in beta, expansion advertised then not delivered, unwanted PvP AND PVE revamp, and chucking out all the work players did for devs regarding game improvements.  Think CURB and you'll know what I mean.  Also, the Exec for the game said they know that the current players don't like or want the revamp, but he doesn't care.  So he's chucking out the current players with the hope of enticing a new, larger group of players to come in.  Oh yes, and after admitting this, the community rep then said this was an error, they are in fact making the changes in view of current player feedback.  Now sound familar?  One change, and the sky is falling lol, hardly the case here.

Re. chicken little. Yeah I was one of the people that told SOE their NGE revamp was going to kill the game, and drive out hundreds of thousands of players.  You're right, I must be crazy -_^.

This is for people that want to be aware of how MMO companies are treating their customers atm.  If you want to believe they're doing good business, by all means go play their game, see for yourself.  Enjoy the ride.

P.S. I found the comment from the community rep where he admitted chucking out the current players in favour of a new crowd: "We knew that the current PvP community wasn't likely to react well to the changes as they wern't who we were making changes for, so it's understandable that there is continuing complaints from that segment."

After making this statement, he then retracted it, saying "oops what I meant to say what that the changes are in fact in response to the current pvp community's feedback."  And, as he's retracting it, his boss is saying what the community rep said in the first place, that yeah the current players won't like it, but we're doing it anyways in the hope of making the game more appealing to new players.

So, not only are they doing on unwanted revamp of the entire game (PVE and PVP), not just one thing, or even one system, the whole game, but now they're also lying about it, contradicting themselves and contradicting each other lol.  It's turning into a circus.

Arc,

First, let me just say I've followed your posts in the SWG forums and have enjoyed them quite a bit. You bring a lot of insight and strong arguments to the table there. Your posts always make for good and thought-provokings reads.

I was there for the NGE back in the day and landed in CoX right after that. I follow the CoX o-forums daily and I just can't seem to draw as strong a comparison as you have.

Sure, they're revamping pvp and a number of folks aren't happy. But from what I've read, it's to make melee toons more involved in combat and cut down the FOTM pvp builds. We both know ranged ATs are at a huge advantage as it stands now, so would changes to benefit melee toons (other than stalkers) be that bad? And would seeing more variety than /nrg blasters, /mind doms with their TK power, and stalkers in pvp be a bad thing? Granted, I haven't been able to test the pvp changes yet because we just hit open beta for I13, but to me it seems it's a move to add more diversity to the pvp choices regarding ATs and their effectiveness. Sure, it opens the pvp game up to a larger crowd (the more casual pvp market) and means the hardcore pvpers might lose a bit more often. Is it bad to level the playing field a bit?

Sure, it's going to diminish the accomplishments of some hardcore pvpers and that's a shame, but that happens to all of us in games. Usually it comes in the form of nerfs. But in the NGE, major accomplishments were removed when whole classes were removed and we could no longer play our favorite toons. It's not like they're now removing blasters and forcing us to play a sloppy version of a defender/corrupter hybrid instead.

Let's also not forget the changes they were going to make to the ancillary/patron powers. Originally, each pool was going to lose a power or two and have a new one or two refitted to take their places. There was such an outcry this week that Friday the devs changed their minds after listening to the players. They're now going to leave the original APP/PPP as they are and add a new power to most of them. They actually listened to the player base and found a better solution -- definitely not the kind of thing SWG is noted for. They realized it was better to just add the new powers, which promotes even more diversity, instead of taking away things players actually enjoy.

As for the Architect, I think they were a bit too ambitious trying to schedule it for the very next issue. Moving it back to I14 isn't a dealbreaker to me because they've said they want to make sure they do it right (I believe it's also schedule for 1Q of 2009, so hopefully it's not too far away). If they half-arsed it just to get it into I13, everyone would be disappointed (and rushing things before they're ready is an old-school SOE tactic, as we both know).

If memory serves, the last post I read from a red name said they wanted us to be able to customize the bosses in the missions and be able to add characters of our own as npcs to missions. To me, if they delay the architect an issue to flush that feature out and improve the architect, I'm cool with that. Now, if it continues to get pushed back several issues, I'll have a problem with it.

They've added more ATs and more power sets, unlike with the NGE. They've promoted more diversity in the game and, to me, made it more complex by giving us so many more options for characters and power combinations.

I agree with the sync bug. That was a big bust for the people it affected. But it was fixed (unlike many bugs still in SWG that exist from the pre-cu and cu days). And to me, NCSoft still puts out a much better product than the one you mentioned. I just don't see the current changes in the game or the devs' plan for the game as being on the same level of the NGE and the current SWG devs.

Perhaps that means we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Nah, I get where you're coming from.  Thing is, I AM a hardcore pvper in there lol.  So, unfortunately, when Miller and Lighthouse say they're not making the changes for us, and that they don't really care if we complain, he's talking about me and the people in the game I spend the most time with.  Also there are a lot of people on the boards saying things like, "we don't need the current pvpers, they'll be replaced by all the new people we get because of the changes."  Honestly, that's just a crappy attitude.

Also, tbh, I was really offended when Lighthouse first said that the changes were not being made for current players, and then later reversed his position and tried to convince us that the changes were in fact meant to address our input.  Frankly, that's just insulting.

At the same time Miller is still saying that current players don't rate.  I honestly feel they're being dishonest now, and it frustrates me.

Also, I have been beta testing the pvp changes especially.  They say one thing and do the other in this as well.  They say they want to make pvp more accessible to melee toons.  You wouldn't believe what they actually did.  They removed mez protection completely, and suppressed movement.  This means that flying dominators hover over head and just spam hold melee toons to death.  You can't run, can't fight back, and it takes a god-awful long time to die that way too.  On top of this, the only thing melee toons had going for them were powers like caltrops and web grenades to slow down and get to the ranged damage toons.  They removed web grenades, and caltrops no longer slow movement.  Pretty much if you have a melee toon, which a lot of us do, and spent months and millions outfitting for pvp btw, you enter the pvp zone, get held, and then killed from range, or killed by a stalker while your'e mezzed.  Honestly, it's retarded.

Also, if you were part of the pvp community, you would have been working for the devs for the past number of months on something like the CURB for StarWars pre-cu.  Just like the CURB, someone decided to dumb the game down unbelievably and scrap all the work players did.

You're more objective by far, and that's good on you.  I'm honestly pretty pissed off right now.  Probably the most I've ever been on these boards.

I also don't like how they say they don't have time to put bosses into the mission architect, but they do have time to completely revamp pvp and pve.  I honestly don't believe this.  I don't think it's about time management, I think it's about priorities.

Their current priority seems to be to dumb parts of the game down to appeal to new players, and to consider current players, especially the pvp community, expendable.  It also grinds our beans that they wasted so much time getting us to provide feedback that was then largely disregarded.

So that's my pissed off point of view.  I respect your non-pissed off point of view, and think that both have validity.

Btw, if I sound ticked, it's not at other people in the thread, it's at some decision makers at NCsoft atm.  O.k. some of the posts were aggravating lol, but not really that much in the overall scheme of things.

P.S. Oh btw, I still think this pales in comparison to the shaft known as the NGE.  I really do.  I just see things at NCsoft starting in that direction: game-breaking bug, say one thing do the other, unwanted revamp, expendable playerbase.  It's starting to look ugly, but has a ways to go before it's as disgusting as the NGE.  Hopefully, they'll come to their senses, and get back on a better track.

This may just be silly, but if someones flying and ccing you and your team, why not you know, work together and cc/kill him first?

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!

SWG vets say so!!!!