Gay Christian is a contradiction. I don't have any problem with gays, but plenty of problems with Christians. And plenty more problems with gay Christians. The Bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. Gays just need to realize that it's a silly, opressive religion and convince these people that are using this book to justify their hatred of homosexuals instead of implicitly supporting them by praising the same god.

Originally posted by Finwe

And yes, Jesus was a pretty tolerant guy...Unless you were an affront to his Father. See, it wasn't the "sinners" that followed after him that were the issue. Why? Because they followed after his righteousness. They changed their lives for him. "Go and sin no more". Were his words. He healed people not of just their physical afflictions, but of their spiritual afflictions, their sin.

But you wouldn't want to piss him off. A good example was his righteous indignation at the synagogue. As Jesus himself said, "I have not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it". And as many of his apostles/disciples reiterated, the morality and ethical laws of the old testament still held firm ground in post-Christ world.

Just wanted to add a couple of points to this:

1 John 3:4 - "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."
Matthew 5:17-19 - “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
John 8:11 - "...and Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."
Romans 6:1-2,12 - "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts."

In other words, sin is defined in the new testament as not keeping the law (commandments of the old testament).  Yeshua's forgiveness of the woman in John 8:11 was not unconditional... he told her to sin no more (stop being disobedient to the law) in the same sentence.  Even Romans 6, of which typical Christians love to take verse 14 out of context in order to justify not keeping the old testament, states that we are not to continue in sin (disobedience to the law).  The forgiveness and grace that come from Yeshua's sacrifice were for a reason... they empower us to be obedient, and allow us forgiveness when we screw up IF we repent.  The new testament is very clear that just believing that Yeshua died for your sins is not all that's involved in being a follower.

One thing people tend not to realize is that Yeshua was a Jewish Rabbi.  He would not have been accepted as such in His society if His teaching was contrary to the Torah (law).  He also would not have been qualified to be the sacrifice for our sins if He had broken a single commandment in his lifetime.

Anyway, I know that was a bit off-topic for this thread, but Finwe and Deviliscious were right to question how someone could claim to be a follower of Christ, and consciously choose a lifestyle that was contrary to His teaching.

What do *I* want "you" gays to do? I want you to live, be happy, be free, marry whom you want, and live long and prosper. Oh, and I happen to also be a Christian.

Why did you have to phrase the question as if everyone was against you? The fact is the thing passed by narrow margin. Many people support you -- I certainly do, but I don't live in California.

This once again shows why constitutionally limited government is superior to direct democracy. Tyranny of the majority is as bad as tyranny of the oligarchy.

It is time for Liberty.

Originally posted by Mylon

Gay Christian is a contradiction. I don't have any problem with gays, but plenty of problems with Christians. And plenty more problems with gay Christians. The Bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. Gays just need to realize that it's a silly, opressive religion and convince these people that are using this book to justify their hatred of homosexuals instead of implicitly supporting them by praising the same god.

Discriminate much?

While some christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, others do not. They are both christians, they just prescribe to different interpretations of the bible, which is understandable. Some christians believe that smoking marijuana is a sin, others do not. Again, it's open to interpretation. See where this is going?

For nearly every "sin" a christian denounces through scripture, there is also scripture to contradict that denouncement. Face it, christianity is a religion based on inconsistency (as are most religions). You cannot blame those who pass the scripture through their own personal filter. You will agree with some, and not with others. But, you cannot disagree with all christians all the time. With such a wide range of interpretations, it's literally impossible.

The limits of Jesus' love is immeasurable. It is so grand, in fact, that all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movement. In doing so, many have lost the spirit of the message itself, which is not one of division, oppression, and judgment, but of inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness.

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

Originally posted by Mylon

Gay Christian is a contradiction. I don't have any problem with gays, but plenty of problems with Christians. And plenty more problems with gay Christians. The Bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. Gays just need to realize that it's a silly, opressive religion and convince these people that are using this book to justify their hatred of homosexuals instead of implicitly supporting them by praising the same god.

 

Discriminate much?

 

While some christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, others do not. They are both christians, they just prescribe to different interpretations of the bible, which is understandable. Some christians believe that smoking marijuana is a sin, others do not. Again, it's open to interpretation. See where this is going?

For nearly every "sin" a christian denounces through scripture, there is also scripture to contradict that denouncement. Face it, christianity is a religion based on inconsistency (as are most religions). You cannot blame those who pass the scripture through their own personal filter. You will agree with some, and not with others. But, you cannot disagree with all christians all the time. With such a wide range of interpretations, it's literally impossible. 

The limits of Jesus' love is immeasurable. It is so grand, in fact, that all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movement. In doing so, many have lost the spirit of the message itself, which is not one of division, oppression, and judgment, but of inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness.

I don't see how the fact that the book is an incomprehensible muddle that even the true believers who think its the word of God can't understand is being brought up as a good thing here.  Jesus' love is pretty limited - the man died a long time ago, if he ever really existed in the first place.  As for what people have done in his name, well, that hasn't exactly been the most loving record.  If you have an airplane design that keeps getting built, blowing up, and killing everyone involved, after a few such explosions you stop blaming the people building the airplane, and start blaming the design. 

I'd say Christianity has more than a few such explosions in its history.  Maybe the fact that its incomprehensible and can be read however you want isn't as good as all that?

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

Originally posted by Mylon

Gay Christian is a contradiction. I don't have any problem with gays, but plenty of problems with Christians. And plenty more problems with gay Christians. The Bible is pretty clear on homosexuality. Gays just need to realize that it's a silly, opressive religion and convince these people that are using this book to justify their hatred of homosexuals instead of implicitly supporting them by praising the same god.

 

Discriminate much?

 

While some christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, others do not. They are both christians, they just prescribe to different interpretations of the bible, which is understandable. Some christians believe that smoking marijuana is a sin, others do not. Again, it's open to interpretation. See where this is going?

For nearly every "sin" a christian denounces through scripture, there is also scripture to contradict that denouncement. Face it, christianity is a religion based on inconsistency (as are most religions). You cannot blame those who pass the scripture through their own personal filter. You will agree with some, and not with others. But, you cannot disagree with all christians all the time. With such a wide range of interpretations, it's literally impossible.

 

 

The limits of Jesus' love is immeasurable. It is so grand, in fact, that all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movement. In doing so, many have lost the spirit of the message itself, which is not one of division, oppression, and judgment, but of inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness.

Amen.

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Originally posted by DailyBuzz

The limits of Jesus' love is immeasurable. It is so grand, in fact, that all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movement. In doing so, many have lost the spirit of the message itself, which is not one of division, oppression, and judgment, but of inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness.

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The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the grandest being there is. So grand, in fact, that he created all that you see today and gave us spaghetti, in his image, to celebrate his noodliness. He doesn't ask for much, but those that revere and respect him shall be awareded eternal life in the presence of the almighty beer volcano with him.

Ramen.

Originally posted by Sharajat

I don't see how the fact that the book is an incomprehensible muddle that even the true believers who think its the word of God can't understand is being brought up as a good thing here.

I didn't bring it up as a good thing or a bad thing. I'm simply stating that my interpretation of the bible is at odds with other people's interpretations.

Jesus' love is pretty limited - the man died a long time ago, if he ever really existed in the first place.

So, why are we still talking about him? The messenger may have died, but the message perseveres.

As for what people have done in his name, well, that hasn't exactly been the most loving record. If you have an airplane design that keeps getting built, blowing up, and killing everyone involved, after a few such explosions you stop blaming the people building the airplane, and start blaming the design.

refer to: "...all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movements."

I'm certainly no exception. I have formed my opinion of what Jesus promoted and was willing to die for. I will only offer my opinion, formed through my interpretation of his message.

I'd say Christianity has more than a few such explosions in its history. Maybe the fact that its incomprehensible and can be read however you want isn't as good as all that?

The message and teachings are what they are. The way people interpret them governs their actions. I interpret them as inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness. This doesn't mean that I may not be wrong. Perhaps Jesus intended for people to go out and kill in his name. Who's to say? As I've said, don't expect people not to pass the scripture through their personal filter. I just don't happen to prescribe to that theory.

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Originally posted by DailyBuzz

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Originally posted by Sharajat

I don't see how the fact that the book is an incomprehensible muddle that even the true believers who think its the word of God can't understand is being brought up as a good thing here.
I didn't bring it up as a good thing or a bad thing. I'm simply stating that my interpretation of the bible is at odds with other people's interpretations.
Jesus' love is pretty limited - the man died a long time ago, if he ever really existed in the first place.
So, why are we still talking about him? The messenger may have died, but the message perseveres.
As for what people have done in his name, well, that hasn't exactly been the most loving record. If you have an airplane design that keeps getting built, blowing up, and killing everyone involved, after a few such explosions you stop blaming the people building the airplane, and start blaming the design.
refer to: "...all factions of christianity want to bind their beliefs to his message. They want to marginalize his teachings with their movements."
I'm certainly no exception. I have formed my opinion of what Jesus promoted and was willing to die for. I will only offer my opinion, formed through my interpretation of his message.
I'd say Christianity has more than a few such explosions in its history. Maybe the fact that its incomprehensible and can be read however you want isn't as good as all that?
The message and teachings are what they are. The way people interpret them governs their actions. I interpret them as inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness. This doesn't mean that I may not be wrong. Perhaps Jesus intended for people to go out and kill in his name. Who's to say? As I've said, don't expect people not to pass the scripture through their personal filter. I just don't happen to prescribe to that theory.

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You say that you interpret the message to mean inclusion, acceptance, and forgiveness. What about people that are walking down an unrighteous path? The Bible lays out a pretty long list of sins. Jesus didn't say they're all okay now.

And, what happens to sinners? Well, a terrible and eternal fate. To allow someone to continue walking down that path and not step in and try and set them straight (bad pun) would be a great offense to your fellow man, turning them away in the tiny window they have in this life to save them from eternal damnation. To accept a sinner for what they are would be awful thing indeed, because you give them temporary comfort in this life but turn away and leave them to their eternal fate. Many may not know how to respond to such sinners, and most shun them to try and isolate themselves in case they catch the sin, resulting in much of what we see now. But there is a reason they are not readily accepted, and that is because that would be encouraged on their sinning path, and being partly responsible for an eternal fate is the same as being fully responsible, due to its infinite nature.

Christianity is a scary thing.

Originally posted by Mylon

 

I've been craving a good theology debate in a while, so how about it...

Yes, I could sense your "craving a good theology debate" from your last post about the flying spaghetti monster.

If you want a theology debate, you'd be better served addressing someone who believes in god. I'm an agnostic. My views of Jesus are not of a divine nature. I observe his actions and deeds from a human perspective.

Oh, well if you're a philosophy, not a theologian, then I guess that makes things different. I'd say there's better sources of moral guidance other than the very indirect methods of the gospels, though.

Originally posted by Finwe

 

Originally posted by Torak

what exactly are you trying to tell us?

 

My ethics command me to be against the homosexual agenda?
 

 

Originally posted by upallnight

Originally posted by Finwe

Originally posted by wonderwhoits

Gay marriage bans wont last a decade with all the conservative old farts dying off.  Change only happens when the oldest folks die off and take their antiquated values to the grave with them. 

By the time we're all old bastards there wont be anything left to legalize, socialize or improvise unless some entirely new issues crop soon.  Like human/alien marriage after the first contact of 2012... or some such shit.

So yeah- Im sorry it's taking so long for all these folks from the era of "serparate but equal" so long to die.  But I wish you the best of luck.

 

I know it's probably a thing hard to comprehend, but people like myself who are still in their twenties happen to believe in this archaic silly thing valled ethics and morality, and don't believe that it's arbitrary.

I understand it's probably lost on people like you...But it'll never die.

So now I don't have any ethics or morality?  Do you see the hole you put us in?

 

I think you individually have an arbitrary set of morality/ethics. You claim to be a Christian, and say you believe what the Bible says about Yeshua the Annointed One dieing on the cross for your salvation of sin, but then in the same breadth say that you don't believe in all that "magic", and don't believe what the bible says about homosexuality.

One man dieing for the sins of all others...Kind of defines magical doesn't it? Especially the part about him being raised from the dead...Wounds still in tact?

That's ultra magic. At least 20th level cleric.

I understood what he was saying completely.
 

Ever heard of Jefferson's Bible?  He was pretty Unitarian (like myself) and separated the works of Jesus from the magic stories in the Bible.  He was a wise man, that Jefferson. 

Originally posted by Torak

Originally posted by Finwe

 

Originally posted by Torak

what exactly are you trying to tell us?

 

My ethics command me to be against the homosexual agenda?
 

 

Ok, but homosexuality is not a choice.

Ethics have nothing to do with homosexuality any more then it's a moral or ethical choice of how tall you are.

What is the "homosexual agenda"? To be treated no different then anyone else and not be discriminated against? Who has the moral issue here? The people who prevent that or the ones who want it?

I think you need to go back and read some of that Bible you hold so dear. Nowhere in it does Jesus say to be intolerant and oppress those who are different from you and deny them equality.

Although I don't believe in any religion Jesus was a pretty good guy who made a lot of sense. Its really a shame that religion has twisted his message of peace, love and tolerance into what it is today.

At one time the Christians where the champions of the oppressed, not so much these days.

 

There is a story in the Bible where Jesus heals a Roman soldiers male lover.  If he were against homosexuality, I think he would have said something at that event to make his statement clear.  But he didn't.  So, I imagine to him, it really made no difference about what kind of love he saw, just that he saw love.
 

Originally posted by porgie

There is a story in the Bible where Jesus heals a Roman soldiers male lover.
 

What evidence is there that it was a male love thing?

I think Jesus is silent on homosexuality, pro or against.

I am curious, though, and would appreciate an answer to my first question; this is what happens when I do not go out on Friday nights. I ask questions. 

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Originally posted by porgie
There is a story in the Bible where Jesus heals a Roman soldiers male lover.  If he were against homosexuality, I think he would have said something at that event to make his statement clear.  But he didn't.  So, I imagine to him, it really made no difference about what kind of love he saw, just that he saw love.

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Yeah, and one could quote all other parts of the bible to point out the anti-gay parts. The one implicit approval doesn't do much against all of the explicit disapprovals. But then again, the Bible is a work used to justify lots of hateful things and should be tossed altogether.

Originally posted by declaredemer

Originally posted by porgie

There is a story in the Bible where Jesus heals a Roman soldiers male lover.
 

 

What evidence is there that it was a male love thing?

 

I think Jesus is silent on homosexuality, pro or against.

 

 

I am curious, though, and would appreciate an answer to my first question; this is what happens when I do not go out on Friday nights. I ask questions. 

There are lots of theologians that interpret the centurion story that way.  It's out there for you to read and easy to find if you Google it.  I'm not big on just posting links to things, so just look it up.  It's just another story that you can choose to read one way or the other.  I choose to read it as a love affair because it makes more sense to me that way.  When you look at the society, the way living arrangements were setup at that time, and other clues to the story, it just makes sense.
 

Originally posted by Mylon

 

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Originally posted by porgie
There is a story in the Bible where Jesus heals a Roman soldiers male lover.  If he were against homosexuality, I think he would have said something at that event to make his statement clear.  But he didn't.  So, I imagine to him, it really made no difference about what kind of love he saw, just that he saw love.

---

 

Yeah, and one could quote all other parts of the bible to point out the anti-gay parts. The one implicit approval doesn't do much against all of the explicit disapprovals. But then again, the Bible is a work used to justify lots of hateful things and should be tossed out all right.
 

Yeah, and one could show you challenge after challenge to those anti-gay parts as well.
 

Look, I'm not defending the Bible.  I am Unitarian and believe a lot of it is of fantasy and lore in the least.  It's a great book, but I think it's full of flaws and doesn't fit into our modern times much at all, except for the general theme of love and compassion.

Like I told that other dude, I think it's cool that someone as important in our nations history as Thomas Jefferson put together a Bible that ripped out the magical stories.  It's not just telling of how things in the Bible should be challenged, but it's also a great kick in the ass to get people to doing it.  It's more than okay to question and challenge those stories and verses.

We live in a modern time, and to apply ancient laws to modern people is in itself a bit of insanity.

It is simply not possible to deduce what a middle eastern male over 2000 years ago thought about anything.

It comes down too, today, what people feel in their heart. Extreme conservative religious groups, from all denominations, want to make it about a strict set of rules or laws. This allows them to control, and set up hierarchies, within their groups.

Set your mind Free young man! Set your mind Free!

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Originally posted by porgie
We live in a modern time, and to apply ancient laws to modern people is in itself a bit of insanity.

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Then why not base our philosophy/morality on a more modern setting instead of perpetuating this old book and it's baggage by acknowledging it? I'll admit, there are some things one can take from the Bible, but it's like eating around a worm in an apple. There's plenty of other works out there one can hold up to as an ideal and follow, and without the undesirable bits to pick through and without giving more support to other people that do follow/practice the not-so-nice parts.

Religion is kinda scary and relies partly on herd mechanics. One guy says, "Jesus had a lot of good things to say," And then another person feels a little more convinced of himself when he puts on his pointed white sheet. An extreme example, I'll admit, but we just toss Jesus out altogether and focus on a different philosophy, that person is left feeling a little silly if they don't have anyone to turn to to help justify their poor views.

Originally posted by porgie

Originally posted by declaredemer

Originally posted by porgie

There is a story in the Bible where Jesus heals a Roman soldiers male lover.
 

 

What evidence is there that it was a male love thing?

 

I think Jesus is silent on homosexuality, pro or against.

 

 

I am curious, though, and would appreciate an answer to my first question; this is what happens when I do not go out on Friday nights. I ask questions. 

There are lots of theologians that interpret the centurion story that way.  It's out there for you to read and easy to find if you Google it.  I'm not big on just posting links to things, so just look it up.  It's just another story that you can choose to read one way or the other.  I choose to read it as a love affair because it makes more sense to me that way.  When you look at the society, the way living arrangements were setup at that time, and other clues to the story, it just makes sense.
 

I will just take your word for it.  The guy was gay.

Actually, I will not.