I'm seeing Prop 8 pass in California.  I see bills like the one in Arkansas squared directly at not allowing gay loving couples to adopt.  I watch people who call themselves Christians take aim at us every day in so many ways.

I wonder, what exactly do you want us gays to do?

Would you like for us to remain in the closet and hide from who we were born as?  Would you like for us to be celibate and never have sex or experience sex for our entire lives?  Would you like for us to ignore the only way we can love another person and instead when we find someone that we fall in love with deny it to each other and live a complete life of loneliness?  Would you like that we feel so dispicable about ourselves that we find each day a struggle to carry on?  Or would you like for us not to carry on and instead play out that internal hatred that society teaches us to feel and go ahead and end it by taking our own lives?  Or, would you rather take it for us by rooting out who we are in society and having us all exterminated like you would a disease or an annoying insect or rodent?

I'm confused about what you want from us.  It is completely out of any concept I can grasp when we come to you and honestly ask for your understanding and you deny it to us.  We tell you with all honesty that we did not choose to be who we are, that we are capable of only falling in love with someone of the same sex, and that we don't want to feel the unbearable agony of being alone while having to go through life being scorned and called wicked and evil.

I don't get it.  I can't.  I am unhappy at what I was born into.  I love my God, but I do not understand my fellow humans.  I cannot believe that God has taught us to hate one another or to put limitations on love for another adult.  I cannot believe what I see when I look at people executed, denied liberty, denied freedoms, or told that they'd rather us just go hide somewhere and leave them alone.

I am happy we have a black president now.  It's nice to see that we can at least get over our racism.  But I wonder how long it will take us, if we ever do, to get over the hatred that is for gay people.  And I wonder what is going to happen to us. 

Would another holocaust aimed at us make some people happy?  Or does it make you happy just to know that you can keep us in a spot where we cannot experience a good life, just one you "let" us live?

Keep up the fight.

Nothing happens overnight.

Losing doesn't mean the results were right.

These are smart, thoughtfully, and tough questions with no easy answers.  If it make you feel any better, we all have our crosses to bear. At he very least, you can be thankful that you are not filled with the bigotry and intolerance so many are afflicted with.

Like Askwhy said.  Keep trying.

Don't give up.  I'm so sorry there are people out there who think it is okay to deny you freedoms and use whatever power they can muster up to run your life.  I don't see how they live with themselves with such views.

I am on your side Upallnight.  I remember watching the civil rights movies and thinking I will stand up for any group that has to go through that.  No one deserves that kind of treatment just for being born a certain way.

You're doing nothing wrong.  You're not hurting anyone or causing trouble.  It's just a group of people who have taken a book out of context and are using it to fuel a human tendency to push aside people who are different.  Our brains have developed an outer cortext that runs on logic and reason.  It's just that some people are still falling back on that ancient part of the brain that helped us by making us tribal and segregated.

Keep up the fight brother!!!  There are some of us who love and believe in you.

Originally posted by upallnight

I'm seeing Prop 8 pass in California.  I see bills like the one in Arkansas squared directly at not allowing gay loving couples to adopt.  I watch people who call themselves Christians take aim at us every day in so many ways.

I wonder, what exactly do you want us gays to do?

Would you like for us to remain in the closet and hide from who we were born as?  Would you like for us to be celibate and never have sex or experience sex for our entire lives?  Would you like for us to ignore the only way we can love another person and instead when we find someone that we fall in love with deny it to each other and live a complete life of loneliness?  Would you like that we feel so dispicable about ourselves that we find each day a struggle to carry on?  Or would you like for us not to carry on and instead play out that internal hatred that society teaches us to feel and go ahead and end it by taking our own lives?  Or, would you rather take it for us by rooting out who we are in society and having us all exterminated like you would a disease or an annoying insect or rodent?

I'm confused about what you want from us.  It is completely out of any concept I can grasp when we come to you and honestly ask for your understanding and you deny it to us.  We tell you with all honesty that we did not choose to be who we are, that we are capable of only falling in love with someone of the same sex, and that we don't want to feel the unbearable agony of being alone while having to go through life being scorned and called wicked and evil.

I don't get it.  I can't.  I am unhappy at what I was born into.  I love my God, but I do not understand my fellow humans.  I cannot believe that God has taught us to hate one another or to put limitations on love for another adult.  I cannot believe what I see when I look at people executed, denied liberty, denied freedoms, or told that they'd rather us just go hide somewhere and leave them alone.

I am happy we have a black president now.  It's nice to see that we can at least get over our racism.  But I wonder how long it will take us, if we ever do, to get over the hatred that is for gay people.  And I wonder what is going to happen to us. 

Would another holocaust aimed at us make some people happy?  Or does it make you happy just to know that you can keep us in a spot where we cannot experience a good life, just one you "let" us live?

How honest to you want me to be?

Personally i could care less about your sex life.Im a libertarian and to that end i believe in personal freedom and responsibility.

I have known some gay people before that you would NEVER know were gay.Ive also known gay people that were so over the top you would not want to even talk to them.

Look i live in Atlanta,Ga and it just so happens that it is the gay center of the east coast.I think it is july 4th weekend or around that time that the Pride weekend occurs.

So when this weekend does happen it is almost a point that the parade goes by a set of churches that just happen to be letting out around lunch on Sunday.You can imagine how this is perceived.

I guess what im saying is i can understand sticking up for yourself .BUT if it was done in a more discreet way and a bit more conservative you might get a bit further down the road.

You want to be MORE accepted?Try acting more acceptable.You want to be my neighbor?Great as long as you maintain your yard and act respectable towards me and mine this is a start.

What i dont get is why must your sexuality be shown to me in public?These are things that should be private.

Please dont think for a second that im trying to pick a fight im attempting to have an intelligent dialog.

You may not like this answer, but it's not my fight.

I don't have a support of either side. If bills passed extending rights I would be fine with it, as with the other side. I will not go cast a vote to allow for an extension of rights, but I also will not cast a vote against it.

You have to understand more people possibly did not vote either way than the amount of people who voted against or for it.

Don't take it as an offense, I have no qualms with gays or their lifestyles - I just choose not to be involved and remain a neutral party.

Im sorry this didnt pass Upallnight.  I live in California and do not know a single person who did not vote no on Prop 8.  While driving through central Cali for Halloween in Santa Barbara all I saw were signs for Yes on 8 and it was a pretty big shock coming from the SF bay area.

All I can think of is every other civil right movement in which those fighting for something eventually got it.  Woman have the right to vote.  Blacks ended slavery and won the right to vote.  Shit, we now have a soon to be black president.  I think like Barack Obama said in his speech last night, anything is possible.  Keep on fighting, I don't think its too far off that you will be granted the rights you wish.

Originally posted by Opticaleye

Originally posted by upallnight

I'm seeing Prop 8 pass in California.  I see bills like the one in Arkansas squared directly at not allowing gay loving couples to adopt.  I watch people who call themselves Christians take aim at us every day in so many ways.

I wonder, what exactly do you want us gays to do?

Would you like for us to remain in the closet and hide from who we were born as?  Would you like for us to be celibate and never have sex or experience sex for our entire lives?  Would you like for us to ignore the only way we can love another person and instead when we find someone that we fall in love with deny it to each other and live a complete life of loneliness?  Would you like that we feel so dispicable about ourselves that we find each day a struggle to carry on?  Or would you like for us not to carry on and instead play out that internal hatred that society teaches us to feel and go ahead and end it by taking our own lives?  Or, would you rather take it for us by rooting out who we are in society and having us all exterminated like you would a disease or an annoying insect or rodent?

I'm confused about what you want from us.  It is completely out of any concept I can grasp when we come to you and honestly ask for your understanding and you deny it to us.  We tell you with all honesty that we did not choose to be who we are, that we are capable of only falling in love with someone of the same sex, and that we don't want to feel the unbearable agony of being alone while having to go through life being scorned and called wicked and evil.

I don't get it.  I can't.  I am unhappy at what I was born into.  I love my God, but I do not understand my fellow humans.  I cannot believe that God has taught us to hate one another or to put limitations on love for another adult.  I cannot believe what I see when I look at people executed, denied liberty, denied freedoms, or told that they'd rather us just go hide somewhere and leave them alone.

I am happy we have a black president now.  It's nice to see that we can at least get over our racism.  But I wonder how long it will take us, if we ever do, to get over the hatred that is for gay people.  And I wonder what is going to happen to us. 

Would another holocaust aimed at us make some people happy?  Or does it make you happy just to know that you can keep us in a spot where we cannot experience a good life, just one you "let" us live?

 

How honest to you want me to be?

Personally i could care less about your sex life.Im a libertarian and to that end i believe in personal freedom and responsibility.

I have known some gay people before that you would NEVER know were gay.Ive also known gay people that were so over the top you would not want to even talk to them.

Look i live in Atlanta,Ga and it just so happens that it is the gay center of the east coast.I think it is july 4th weekend or around that time that the Pride weekend occurs.

So when this weekend does happen it is almost a point that the parade goes by a set of churches that just happen to be letting out around lunch on Sunday.You can imagine how this is perceived.

I guess what im saying is i can understand sticking up for yourself .BUT if it was done in a more discreet way and a bit more conservative you might get a bit further down the road.

You want to be MORE accepted?Try acting more acceptable.You want to be my neighbor?Great as long as you maintain your yard and act respectable towards me and mine this is a start.

What i dont get is why must your sexuality be shown to me in public?These are things that should be private.

Please dont think for a second that im trying to pick a fight im attempting to have an intelligent dialog.

You don't sound like a Libertarian to me.  See, we Libertarian's believe in picking up the fight for liberty and freedom and defending it.  Liberty and freedom that not just extends to those who'm we agree with or who'm fit within a certain criteria we believe in personally, but liberty for all.
 

You actually sound bitter in your statements.  I'm not sure if you meant to come across that way or not, but you did.

And you say that sexuality should be private, sure that sounds good, but in the real world who is capable of doing that?  I go to work all the time and hear straight people talk about their wife and family at home.  Should they keep their home life private too?  Hell no, it's something they're proud of and should be.

Gay people are simply looking to build a family, a home, a respectable life that they can present with pride and dignity.  You sound like you answered Upallnight's question by saying he should go hide. 

Originally posted by Opticaleye

Originally posted by upallnight

I'm seeing Prop 8 pass in California.  I see bills like the one in Arkansas squared directly at not allowing gay loving couples to adopt.  I watch people who call themselves Christians take aim at us every day in so many ways.

I wonder, what exactly do you want us gays to do?

Would you like for us to remain in the closet and hide from who we were born as?  Would you like for us to be celibate and never have sex or experience sex for our entire lives?  Would you like for us to ignore the only way we can love another person and instead when we find someone that we fall in love with deny it to each other and live a complete life of loneliness?  Would you like that we feel so dispicable about ourselves that we find each day a struggle to carry on?  Or would you like for us not to carry on and instead play out that internal hatred that society teaches us to feel and go ahead and end it by taking our own lives?  Or, would you rather take it for us by rooting out who we are in society and having us all exterminated like you would a disease or an annoying insect or rodent?

I'm confused about what you want from us.  It is completely out of any concept I can grasp when we come to you and honestly ask for your understanding and you deny it to us.  We tell you with all honesty that we did not choose to be who we are, that we are capable of only falling in love with someone of the same sex, and that we don't want to feel the unbearable agony of being alone while having to go through life being scorned and called wicked and evil.

I don't get it.  I can't.  I am unhappy at what I was born into.  I love my God, but I do not understand my fellow humans.  I cannot believe that God has taught us to hate one another or to put limitations on love for another adult.  I cannot believe what I see when I look at people executed, denied liberty, denied freedoms, or told that they'd rather us just go hide somewhere and leave them alone.

I am happy we have a black president now.  It's nice to see that we can at least get over our racism.  But I wonder how long it will take us, if we ever do, to get over the hatred that is for gay people.  And I wonder what is going to happen to us. 

Would another holocaust aimed at us make some people happy?  Or does it make you happy just to know that you can keep us in a spot where we cannot experience a good life, just one you "let" us live?

 

How honest to you want me to be?

Personally i could care less about your sex life.Im a libertarian and to that end i believe in personal freedom and responsibility.

I have known some gay people before that you would NEVER know were gay.Ive also known gay people that were so over the top you would not want to even talk to them.

Look i live in Atlanta,Ga and it just so happens that it is the gay center of the east coast.I think it is july 4th weekend or around that time that the Pride weekend occurs.

So when this weekend does happen it is almost a point that the parade goes by a set of churches that just happen to be letting out around lunch on Sunday.You can imagine how this is perceived.

I guess what im saying is i can understand sticking up for yourself .BUT if it was done in a more discreet way and a bit more conservative you might get a bit further down the road.

You want to be MORE accepted?Try acting more acceptable.You want to be my neighbor?Great as long as you maintain your yard and act respectable towards me and mine this is a start.

What i dont get is why must your sexuality be shown to me in public?These are things that should be private.

Please dont think for a second that im trying to pick a fight im attempting to have an intelligent dialog.

But this doesn't work.  This is just the 'separate but equal, back of the bus' version of bigotry.  I'll give you one example a gay person I know went through.  He has a marriage (or life partner or whatever the hell you prefer to call it if you're too blind to accept that two people can love eachother without gender being a necessary box you have to check off) and wears a wedding band on his finger.  When he was interviewing for a job, inevitably a question that would come up would be 'how is your wife.' (or what does she do, etc.)  

He can answer the following ways:

"None of your business"  - nice thing to say in an interview, huh?  

"She's great" - lying to your employer.  Nice road to walk down, huh?

"My husband is great, he works in xxxxx field."  - Now he's shoving his sexuality at you in public. 

Every single day, every single time someone says that gay people are shoving their sexuality at them, they ignore the myriad of ways that heterosexuality, the assumed norm, is 'shoved' at them.  

You just gotta keep fighting like those before us who fought for their rights. In every aspect of life you will have those who try to suppress you and try to force you to be like them. You must keep going and rise above oppression.

Gays and lesbiens are not different to me than straight people.

You should have the same rights as someone who is straight. This includes getting married.

The public in general seems far more accepting of "civil unions". I would recommend working toward making civil unions mirror marriages as far as observed benefits are concerned. Once they match exactly, you have a foundation to build a case on (as well as securing equal benefits for same sex couples).

Fighting for same sex marriage is, in a way, putting the cart before the horse. First, fight for equal rights in a tangible sense. Then you can move on the what label should be put on it.

This is a major reason I am a liberal.  To me giving equal rights to gays is just as important as the civil rights movement 50 years ago.  I am personally not gay but in my country everyone should be able to walk down the street with their head held high and have the same rights as anyone else in the country.

I promise as long as I am alive I will always support the rights of all people regardless of race, gender, or sexual prefrence.   Don't give up cause were not going to give up on you.

How can you believe in god when religion is the biggest anti-homosexual movement? I think that's the issue here.

---

Originally posted by Opticaleye

---

Originally posted by upallnight

I'm seeing Prop 8 pass in California.  I see bills like the one in Arkansas squared directly at not allowing gay loving couples to adopt.  I watch people who call themselves Christians take aim at us every day in so many ways.
I wonder, what exactly do you want us gays to do?
Would you like for us to remain in the closet and hide from who we were born as?  Would you like for us to be celibate and never have sex or experience sex for our entire lives?  Would you like for us to ignore the only way we can love another person and instead when we find someone that we fall in love with deny it to each other and live a complete life of loneliness?  Would you like that we feel so dispicable about ourselves that we find each day a struggle to carry on?  Or would you like for us not to carry on and instead play out that internal hatred that society teaches us to feel and go ahead and end it by taking our own lives?  Or, would you rather take it for us by rooting out who we are in society and having us all exterminated like you would a disease or an annoying insect or rodent?
I'm confused about what you want from us.  It is completely out of any concept I can grasp when we come to you and honestly ask for your understanding and you deny it to us.  We tell you with all honesty that we did not choose to be who we are, that we are capable of only falling in love with someone of the same sex, and that we don't want to feel the unbearable agony of being alone while having to go through life being scorned and called wicked and evil.
I don't get it.  I can't.  I am unhappy at what I was born into.  I love my God, but I do not understand my fellow humans.  I cannot believe that God has taught us to hate one another or to put limitations on love for another adult.  I cannot believe what I see when I look at people executed, denied liberty, denied freedoms, or told that they'd rather us just go hide somewhere and leave them alone.
I am happy we have a black president now.  It's nice to see that we can at least get over our racism.  But I wonder how long it will take us, if we ever do, to get over the hatred that is for gay people.  And I wonder what is going to happen to us. 
Would another holocaust aimed at us make some people happy?  Or does it make you happy just to know that you can keep us in a spot where we cannot experience a good life, just one you "let" us live?

---

 
How honest to you want me to be?
Personally i could care less about your sex life.Im a libertarian and to that end i believe in personal freedom and responsibility.
I have known some gay people before that you would NEVER know were gay.Ive also known gay people that were so over the top you would not want to even talk to them.
Look i live in Atlanta,Ga and it just so happens that it is the gay center of the east coast.I think it is july 4th weekend or around that time that the Pride weekend occurs.
So when this weekend does happen it is almost a point that the parade goes by a set of churches that just happen to be letting out around lunch on Sunday.You can imagine how this is perceived.
I guess what im saying is i can understand sticking up for yourself .BUT if it was done in a more discreet way and a bit more conservative you might get a bit further down the road.
You want to be MORE accepted?Try acting more acceptable.You want to be my neighbor?Great as long as you maintain your yard and act respectable towards me and mine this is a start.
What i dont get is why must your sexuality be shown to me in public?These are things that should be private.
Please dont think for a second that im trying to pick a fight im attempting to have an intelligent dialog.

---

For a libertarian you're aweful hypocritical.

Do you have a problem with a public wedding where a man kisses his bride?

Do you have a problem with couples in the park holding hands and making out?

Sounds to me like you only have a problem with that if the couple is a gay couple. What about Mardi Gras? Are we to ban titty flashing and bead throwing because it offends you? Or does that only offend you when it's a woman flashing to another woman?

I think you fail at the whole Libertarian thing. Libertarians are all for keeping the government out of our lives and your personal opinion on what offends you out of our government.

I personally don't understand why anyone gay or straight feels the need to define a relationship by terms of religion or government. But that's just me. If you want to do it. You should be able to do it.

I live in Califorrnia and voted against this proposition.

I am very disappointed in my neighbors who voted to put this in our state constitution.  It's discrimination due to religious reasons plain and simple.

I support your rights to live a meaningful and fulfilling life.  I too do not understand this.  And trust me, I am as conservative as they come when it is dealing with the government.  I want them off our backs and out our pockets and private lives.  It's just that there is wave or revivalism going on in this country that is beginning to get on my freaking nerves.  The religious folk are trying their damndest to take over the government.

And I'm being 100% honest with you by saying this.  And anyone else who is being honest knows it's true.  Every person I know who voted for Proposition 8 that I talked to had some derogatory gay statement to be made.  Sure, they may have said that it was for religious reasons, but then came the obligatory queer comment.

The religious aspect of this is just a tool to facilitate the hatred.  It's true and everyone knows it.  Just the same way they passed laws that would keep interracial couples apart by using the Bible, or said that slavery was excusable by the Bible's standards.

I'm fed up with this garbage.  I have three kids and I don't want them growing up to live in a place like this.  It's horrible to see two adults in love and told that they can't be who they were born to be.  And if one of my three sons turns out to be gay, then I don't want them to have to deal with this kind of opression.

Originally posted by Briansho

You just gotta keep fighting like those before us who fought for their rights. In every aspect of life you will have those who try to suppress you and try to force you to be like them. You must keep going and rise above oppression.

I know.  It's just that it's hard a lot of the times.

I don't feel safe a lot.  I feel like if I don't hide who I am then I could have my life destroyed.  I feel scared and anxious a lot.  I wonder what people will do if they find out.

It's not just an issue of law as much as an issue of safety sometimes.  I simply want to be able to be with who I am meant to be with and feel the most comfort and love with.  And for that I don't feel safe in my own city and community.

I own my own business now, but before that I felt scared of getting fired.  My partner cannot even talk about me at work.  He refers to me as his "roommate".  I know plenty of friends who have been conveniently fired when people found out about them too.

It's just scary.  I don't think people realize how strange it is living a life like this.  It's almost like I walk around in this Orwellian trance most of the time always having to be careful about what I say or do so that I don't "let on" that I'm gay.  I have to watch how I refer to people and watch every word in my conversations.

It's absolutely tiring and ridiculous.

---

Originally posted by upallnight

---

Originally posted by Briansho

You just gotta keep fighting like those before us who fought for their rights. In every aspect of life you will have those who try to suppress you and try to force you to be like them. You must keep going and rise above oppression.

---

 
I know.  It's just that it's hard a lot of the times.
I don't feel safe a lot.  I feel like if I don't hide who I am then I could have my life destroyed.  I feel scared and anxious a lot.  I wonder what people will do if they find out.
It's not just an issue of law as much as an issue of safety sometimes.  I simply want to be able to be with who I am meant to be with and feel the most comfort and love with.  And for that I don't feel safe in my own city and community.
I own my own business now, but before that I felt scared of getting fired.  My partner cannot even talk about me at work.  He refers to me as his "roommate".  I know plenty of friends who have been conveniently fired when people found out about them too.
It's just scary.  I don't think people realize how strange it is living a life like this.  It's almost like I walk around in this Orwellian trance most of the time always having to be careful about what I say or do so that I don't "let on" that I'm gay.  I have to watch how I refer to people and watch every word in my conversations.
It's absolutely tiring and ridiculous.

---

I heard about this church in Colorado that can cure you of being gay! You should check it out.. maybe you won't have to walk around scared after they cure you.

sarcasm btw :P

Since you asked...

1. I want you to never have children and never raise any children.

That's pretty much the only concrete thing I want homosexuals never to do.

I wish that we could seperate the religious aspects of marriage from the legal aspects of it and call the latter a civil union: I wouldn't have the least problem with homosexuals applying for certificates of civil union, but I personally regard "marriage" as a formal, holy union between a man and a woman.

As far as the stigma goes: people have the right to view you in whatever way they see fit, good or bad. You DO NOT have the right to force them, or try to force them, to view your behavior as acceptable. I will never consider homosexuality as normal. I think it is an abberation. I regard it as a type of affliction and I tend to feel sorry for those who must bear it. But we all have our crosses to bear. I try not to make yours any worse, but at the same time I'm not going to pretend I find homosexual normal or acceptable, because that would be a lie.

If a similar proposition ever came up for vote here in Washington, I'd vote for it. If a proposition came up that created civil unions and stipulated that any consenting adult of either sex could enter into one, I would vote for that, too. Why? Because I don't have the right to force you or anyone else to behave in a certain way. This is seperate from how I judge people or the acts people undertake. People do things I do not approve of all the time, and that's fine: so long as they do not hurt another, then I have no right or obligation to prevent people from doing what they want, regardless of whether or not I approve of it.

Live your life as you see fit. Society may place limits on what you can do. It places limits on all of us, though obviously not to the same degree or in the same way. You'll either have to work within those constraints (while striving to change them) or move to somewhere that has different constraints.

Ultimately, God is the only judge that matters insofar as your actions are concerned. If you really believe that he condones your actions, then you should follow your convictions. Yes, you may not get the legal benefits that society bestows on married couples, but you will still be doing what you think is right, and that will have to suffice.

Originally posted by upallnight

I know.  It's just that it's hard a lot of the times.

I don't feel safe a lot.  I feel like if I don't hide who I am then I could have my life destroyed.  I feel scared and anxious a lot.  I wonder what people will do if they find out.

It's not just an issue of law as much as an issue of safety sometimes.  I simply want to be able to be with who I am meant to be with and feel the most comfort and love with.  And for that I don't feel safe in my own city and community.

I own my own business now, but before that I felt scared of getting fired.  My partner cannot even talk about me at work.  He refers to me as his "roommate".  I know plenty of friends who have been conveniently fired when people found out about them too.

It's just scary.  I don't think people realize how strange it is living a life like this.  It's almost like I walk around in this Orwellian trance most of the time always having to be careful about what I say or do so that I don't "let on" that I'm gay.  I have to watch how I refer to people and watch every word in my conversations.

It's absolutely tiring and ridiculous.

Most likely it's time to find another community to live in.  It's one thing to ideological difference, it's another when you fear for your safety.  Besides, with modern technology and availability of travel option you can easily stay in touch with loved ones.