I believe it's possible to please everyone, but not with the current style of MMO.  If you want to appease all styles of play then you need to have content for everyone from the start of the game.  I believe this can only be done useing a skill system.

The reason I think it can only be done with a skill system is it's the only way to be able to produce content for all play sytles from the start of the game.  In a level system you have different level range areas.  generally there are so many level ranges that you only have group content at x point and raid content at y point.  The rest is solo play. 

On the flip side in a skill based game you can go anywhere right away.  You can form a group or a raid and go to take on any difficult creature you want right off the bat.

Another important factor is making everyone happy with loot.  I think this is done with a system like SWG where items come from crafters.  The raiders and groupers will get items off the tuffer monters which they can sell to the crafters.  The crafters will then make the nice items to sell to people.  This will make items accessible to everyone, but it will be more difficult for the solo player to get the amount of cash needed to buy said item.  It will not be impossible though as it is with raiding.

I don´t think we are talking about same thing here. I don´t talk about "giving something to a solo player". I said that the reward should be in proportion to the difficulty (for you), not in proportion to the number of players - if you want something valuable, you have to work hard for it... or bring some friends to join you. I never said that you should be punished for doing something in group, just not be rewarded more for it just because you are in a group.

I find your contest comparison a bit out of place here. In a contest you are playing against others, and you don´t play in team with everyone who participate. You can play in teams against teams of course, but should I be refused to participate or even enter the restaurant just because I cant bring a group of people with me to form a team with?

I wasnt finished here really, and I feel that I did not answered completely, but I must rush to work (already late) lol.

Originally posted by Gammit100

Because I have such a hard time finding a group that isn't full of assholes, I tend to play most MMOs solo.  To me, the MM aspect for me is being surrounded by a real world, and not just NPCs.  It's also fun to chat with other people while playing.

I don't mind you (incorrectly) thinking that allowing solo play ruins MMOs, because of one oft-used feature: dynamic rewards.  Some MMOs will award you with more experience and/or better loot while in a group.

Personally, I'd like to see a game that scales between group challenges and solo challenges.  Even if it was only used in instanced-quests/dungeons, I think that would give everybody a way to enjoy the game without harming somebody else's fun.

Once again, what Gammit said.

And he's right, there are scaled rewards. Sure, there must be people out there who want the same rewards all across the boards but there are people out there who like to camp noob villages and take out lvl 4 players with high level toons and laugh about it over shout. I'm sure there are also people out there who like to eat paste.

Which brings us to his comment about finding a group that isn't full of assholes.

Quite frankly this is solved by joining a good guild but that's not always possible. it's can sometimes be hard to find people you would consider worthwhile to hang out with.

I can't tell you how many times I've found myself in a group only to want to drop right then or there for any number of reasons brought out by the real winners who happened to be in the party. But I'm also a bit professional about it and though it is a game, I'd rather be known as the person who stuck it out to the end as opposed to the person who dropped if he hears one too many fart jokes.

Oh sure, fart jokes can be funny in a "Something about Mary" sort of way but some of these players have no clue when to stop and for some reason the "If it bends it's funny, if it breaks, it's not funny" theory hasn't been drilled into their little papier-mache skulls.

Not to mention the group fascists who can't stand losign and who "lose it' if there is a wipe.

Nope, sorry, I enjoy playing in a living world but like real life, some of the inhabitants are not worth my time. I disagree that a game can't support solo and group play as I have played games where I can solo but have also needed groups. And if I wanted to go grind in a certain area then a group was definitely needed.

But there is a group of players (no pun intended) who HAVE to group. It's the guys in this thread no doubt and to hear the incessant whinging over shout always makes me turn off the shout feature.

Of the few times I have joined these players, some of the times have been fun, some of the consisted of these players wanting to shoot the shit (which I could care less about, we have a job to do by cleaning out the dungeon of Zed, so let's do it and I don't care about your favorite food) And some have consisted of some of the greatest losers I have ever had the displeasure to meet in an online game.

 edit; i will add to this already long post that there was one great group I had (now keep in mind i'm talking about pickup groups, I've usually had good clans to be a part of) in LOTRO where we literally took 4 hours to do a quest (tomb of Elendil I think) beause some of the people in the group kept dropping out. Oh sure, they wanted to group but if there was any dying or any diificulty they would complain that we couldn't do it with this setup and drop. Or in some cases they just had to go because spending 4 hours straight in a quest doesn't (understandably) fit into some people's schedules.

Their was also the minstrel who was liberal with suggestions but never really healed us and just stayed long enough to give us advice (all the while NOT healinig) and then drop with no reason at all. In the end our non-standard group defeated the quest and it was like climbing up mount everest. and surviving.

that's when grouping can be fun. When you have good people who are there to do a job and who don't expect to just run through in order to get quickl xp so they can then make someone else's lives miserable.

What some people fail to realise is that any and every MMO on the market has quests that can be solo'd and quests that can't.  The people who like to group can knock themselves out on group quests all day long, AND on the quests that are too hard to be solo'd but which are OK in a group.  There seems to be tons of stuff for people to do, should they like to group.  There will ALWAYS be tons of group quests.  Why do people think solo content or just plain soloing is bad?

I don't like to play as part of a herd - so what?  I pay my money to enjoy myself, not to have to hold hands with people who want to be joined at the hip every time they play.  Quit whining just because you can't seem to get a group as and when you want one, and stop wishing that grouping was all but compulsory.  The self-reliant, competent players can solo just fine, thanks, so you just get on with your own game.

EDIT:  For the sake of research, I grudgingly grouped twice tonight.  Once with a 70 mage who pulled way too many mobs, then constantly ran in zig-zags all over the place so he was out of both heal range and AOE most of the time.  He was swiftly kicked by virtue he was a waste of space.

Second time was with some guy who constantly pleaded that he wanted to kill the named mob in the undead invasion and needed a hand.  This we did, then when I said "bye" - I didn't intend to stay with him - he whined that he needed 27 more Necrotic Runes!  This from a 70 Hunter with 70 pet, ffs.  It would take him all of 20 to 30 minutes to farm that lot, and he wanted me to hang around and hold his hand?  This was 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back, and I'm most definitely sticking to soloing henceforth.  Too many players are just whiny, time-wasting incompetents, and  I for one prefer to solo rather than group with them.

I'm all in favor of making MMO's more group orientated.  I've also said many times that MMO's are becoming way too easy.

Barring that however, the majority of the people have spoken, they want easy solo content.  The game companies listen to what people say with thier wallet.

Forcing people to group for the sake of grouping will not work though, it will only create resentment.  I agree with you that soloing should still be an option but it should be very slow progress and the rewards kept minimal.  That way people have something to do while looking for a group and don't get bored sitting in town spamming in the LFG channel.

Also you have to keep in mind people will find ways to exploit the game to make even group content easy.  For example in WoW and EQ2 people take along max level toons to run them through instances.  In FFXI people have high level white mages kept outside of the group so they can still earn xp.  In Lineage 2 people dual and three box so they can have a warcryer and/or prophet follow their main.

So I guess the content will only be as hard as you want to make it.

Originally posted by Aetherial

(Title paraphrased from someone else in another thread)

Bottom line...

In order to make a game solo-friendly, you have to make it easy. (Please don't insult us by claiming your 1337 game play is what allows you to solo ALL recently released MMO's... they are easy, stupidly easy, period.)

If it is easy, it is no challenge for a group. There is no need to play well, no need to coordinate, it gets very stale, very fast...

which leads people to solo. Why bother grouping.

In other words, if you *can* solo, you will. The social aspect of the MMO is severely diminished.

Thus, IMO, soloing is killing MMO's.

It should be *possible*, but only barely, with only limited options to do so.

Not sure what you mean. I played Asheron's Call religiously back in the day and it was without a doubt one of the best MMORPG's ever made and catered to Solo and Group play too.  It had an awesome in-game community even though you didn't have to group with people.

Lots of times I just up and took off to locations where you would not see a single soul anywhere. It was a cool feeling knowing that you were the only person around for miles but yet you can go back to most any town and see tons of people doing whatever.

Nothing has ever came close to AC to this day.

Best fucking game EVER.

Originally posted by dave6660

I'm all in favor of making MMO's more group orientated.  I've also said many times that MMO's are becoming way too easy.

Barring that however, the majority of the people have spoken, they want easy solo content.  The game companies listen to what people say with thier wallet.

Forcing people to group for the sake of grouping will not work though, it will only create resentment.  I agree with you that soloing should still be an option but it should be very slow progress and the rewards kept minimal.  That way people have something to do while looking for a group and don't get bored sitting in town spamming in the LFG channel.

That's what people call "forced grouping". If they can't make just as much progress solo as a group, then they call it forced grouping.

You just said, we dont' need forced grouping in a game because it causes resentment, but games should have forced grouping.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by dave6660

I'm all in favor of making MMO's more group orientated.  I've also said many times that MMO's are becoming way too easy.

Barring that however, the majority of the people have spoken, they want easy solo content.  The game companies listen to what people say with thier wallet.

Forcing people to group for the sake of grouping will not work though, it will only create resentment.  I agree with you that soloing should still be an option but it should be very slow progress and the rewards kept minimal.  That way people have something to do while looking for a group and don't get bored sitting in town spamming in the LFG channel.

 

That's what people call "forced grouping". If they can't make just as much progress solo as a group, then they call it forced grouping.

You just said, we dont' need forced grouping in a game because it causes resentment, but games should have forced grouping.

What people aren't realizing is that making a game where grouping is the norm will not do what these players think it will.

There weren't that many people who played the early games. Not as compared to today. Part of that could of course be the geeky stigma of the whole thing and part of it could be that it just took too much time. So only those people who were into this type of entertainment played them.

Now, create a game where you don't need to spend innordinate amount of time if you don't want to and make it user friendly and you suddently get more people willing to try and play it.

So sure, make a more group oriented game like the games of yore and you will get a very predictable scenario. Only those who want this type of game will play it.

Now, that's fine of course. The problem is,  game developement being what it is, you will only find smaller studios making these games. It might not have all the bells and whistles, maybe not have top notch graphics.

Again, not a huge issue for some but it's so risky to do this that there are just fewer new devs even trying. And it's understandable.

Easy enough for you all with your regular jobs to say "I want better games" and then people go into the field, their game fails and they are out of a job. Most people work jobs because they need the money and they might even have to help support families.

On top of that there is saving for retirement. So we aren't going to see as many games come out of these indy studios.

This lashing out at solo players for the PoS mmo we currently have is such complete and utter bullshit.  UO the best mmo to date imho could be soloed from beging to end if you were a smart/skilled enough player.  You had to think about where and when you should hunt, have a escape plan or never carry more you were willing to loose because death was common, but you were never forced to do anything.  But then power was in the character and his build over how much time he spent in forced groups gear farming.

What is truely screwing up the genre is mmo have become all about racing to end game with forced groups and raids instead of the journey of your character from beginning to end.

People should never be forced to group. Grouping should have benefits but soloing should always be an option.  Abrahmm if we go by your logic that all people should group because it is the nature of an mmo then all should rp because they are mmorpg.

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by SwampRob

 

I understand your point.    And truthfully, there's nothing wrong with designing an MMO to be that way, but, it's wrong to say all MMOs should be that way just because they are MMOs.    I've no doubt that having an MMO that made it difficult to solo in places and impossible in others would attract certain types of players.   I would guess, though, that with today's online gaming being what it is, it would attract a smaller crowd than most.     When DDO launched, it was like this, and many begged for more solo content, and slowly Turbine gave it to them.    This was a decision made to keep subscriptions, to keep the cash flow going so the servers could stay on.

To use your analogy, an MMO doesn't have to be like football.   It can be like basketball, which can be fun with a team of 5 or 1 on 1.     Simply put, forcing grouping on players means removing options from the game.   

I must disagree with the notion that if you make something soloable, then it will, by default, be bad for a group.    I think games can be designed to be good for both, and I'd use CoH as an example.   It scales wonderfully, with both the difficulty and the exp ramping up based on the number of players on the team.

So, do I think all MMOs should accomodate soloing?   No, but I think it would be in their best interests to do so.   I do strongly believe that there is more than one way to define an MMO though, and that 'must group' is not part of that definition.

 

What swamprob said.

 

Sorry, CoH doesn't satisfy my need for a good grouping game. Yes I played it, yes it was fun, yes you can find groups, and YES the solo friendly aspect ruins the potential for it to be a great grouping game.

No, I don't think ALL MMORPGs should be for grouping, but neitehr should ALL MMORPGs be for solo play.

I would put CoH firmly in the solo friendly category. If you like to solo, sure you think the game is great, and you think it does a great job for being a group game, but it's completely mediocre in terms of being a good grouping game, IMO.

The scaling feature that you are applauding is the reason it sucks as a good grouping game.

To use your analogy, sure, you can make an MMORPG like anything you want. It doesn't even have to have a game, it can be like Second Life.

Sure, you can make it a 1vs1 solo friendly game, like basketball. But if you are playing 1v1 on the basket ball court while I want to play an actual team game of basketball, you're going to screw up my basketball game.

No, not every MMORPG has to be like football, but that's the game I want to play, and no you can't play both games on teh same field at the same time. It won't work.

I disagree, the scaling is what makes COH the best at allowing both solo and grouping in a game.  Add in sidekicking and you got a real winner going on here.  Are you being a bit inflexible?

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by SwampRob

 

I understand your point.    And truthfully, there's nothing wrong with designing an MMO to be that way, but, it's wrong to say all MMOs should be that way just because they are MMOs.    I've no doubt that having an MMO that made it difficult to solo in places and impossible in others would attract certain types of players.   I would guess, though, that with today's online gaming being what it is, it would attract a smaller crowd than most.     When DDO launched, it was like this, and many begged for more solo content, and slowly Turbine gave it to them.    This was a decision made to keep subscriptions, to keep the cash flow going so the servers could stay on.

To use your analogy, an MMO doesn't have to be like football.   It can be like basketball, which can be fun with a team of 5 or 1 on 1.     Simply put, forcing grouping on players means removing options from the game.   

I must disagree with the notion that if you make something soloable, then it will, by default, be bad for a group.    I think games can be designed to be good for both, and I'd use CoH as an example.   It scales wonderfully, with both the difficulty and the exp ramping up based on the number of players on the team.

So, do I think all MMOs should accomodate soloing?   No, but I think it would be in their best interests to do so.   I do strongly believe that there is more than one way to define an MMO though, and that 'must group' is not part of that definition.

 

What swamprob said.

 

Sorry, CoH doesn't satisfy my need for a good grouping game. Yes I played it, yes it was fun, yes you can find groups, and YES the solo friendly aspect ruins the potential for it to be a great grouping game.

No, I don't think ALL MMORPGs should be for grouping, but neitehr should ALL MMORPGs be for solo play.

I would put CoH firmly in the solo friendly category. If you like to solo, sure you think the game is great, and you think it does a great job for being a group game, but it's completely mediocre in terms of being a good grouping game, IMO.

The scaling feature that you are applauding is the reason it sucks as a good grouping game.

To use your analogy, sure, you can make an MMORPG like anything you want. It doesn't even have to have a game, it can be like Second Life.

Sure, you can make it a 1vs1 solo friendly game, like basketball. But if you are playing 1v1 on the basket ball court while I want to play an actual team game of basketball, you're going to screw up my basketball game.

No, not every MMORPG has to be like football, but that's the game I want to play, and no you can't play both games on teh same field at the same time. It won't work.

 

I disagree, the scaling is what makes COH the best at allowing both solo and grouping in a game.  Add in sidekicking and you got a real winner going on here.  Are you being a bit inflexible?

I honestly don't know what being flexible has to do with what I find fun and challenging.

The fact that the "missions" in CoH scale takes away from the challenge, and therefore the fun and grouping aspect of the game.

If you like instanced dungeons that scale to your party, that's fine. I don't have any problem with what you find enjoyable in a game.

It takes away from the immersion for me, if the encounter scales in difficulty. I want it to be a set obstacle, that I can overcome, not somethign that adjusts so that I can win.

I disagree with the OP; MMOs aren't ruined they are just different then they once were. I think most MMOs have a good balance, you can solo quests, but there are certain areas and quests that you have to do as a group. Now I don't whine when I can't get uber-loot because I can't find a group, or I won't raid, I just accept that. I agree that there are some really unreasonable people who seem to think that they should be able to do absolutely everything in a game by themselves. One of the strengths of MMOs is that you can group with other people to overcome obstacles that are impossible by yourself, so there has to be tough dungeons and raids. On the other hand I do get tired of all high end content being raid related.

I have to agree with the OP to a point.  I also think a lot of posters here aren't really looking at the big picture, just at how this criticism affects their own playstyles.

IMO, the ease of soloing in a MMO is inversely proportionate to the quality of its community.  When you give people the ease of ability to go through content that rewards them similarly to what group content does, then it makes it easy for people to be completely inconsiderate (seeing as how they already have internet anonymity) toward the common player.  What you wind up breeding is a playerbase of asshats with the I want it now mentality, and they don't care who it affects- they don't need to because grouping isn't a necessity.

I agree there should be some solo content, in the case that you happen to be on offpeak hours and it just isn't possible to get a group of necessary classes/levels, but I also think that it should be limited to the exploring type things as in CoH, PQs as in Warhammer (although fewer), solo questing (but at a much, much worse reward for time invested than any grouping), or tradeskills.  It'd also be nice if instead of opening servers for EU, Oceania, and US they opened them advertising a peak hour range so that people could join a server based on their playtime instead of the area they are in (I understand the current way somewhat deals with this in timezones but not nearly enough).

Basically, unless you want a community of brats, as a dev you'd better reward for grouping and punish for soloing.

Originally posted by pierth

I have to agree with the OP to a point.  I also think a lot of posters here aren't really looking at the big picture, just at how this criticism affects their own playstyles.

 

IMO, the ease of soloing in a MMO is inversely proportionate to the quality of its community.  When you give people the ease of ability to go through content that rewards them similarly to what group content does, then it makes it easy for people to be completely inconsiderate (seeing as how they already have internet anonymity) toward the common player.  What you wind up breeding is a playerbase of asshats with the I want it now mentality, and they don't care who it affects- they don't need to because grouping isn't a necessity.

 

I agree there should be some solo content, in the case that you happen to be on offpeak hours and it just isn't possible to get a group of necessary classes/levels, but I also think that it should be limited to the exploring type things as in CoH, PQs as in Warhammer (although fewer), solo questing (but at a much, much worse reward for time invested than any grouping), or tradeskills.  It'd also be nice if instead of opening servers for EU, Oceania, and US they opened them advertising a peak hour range so that people could join a server based on their playtime instead of the area they are in (I understand the current way somewhat deals with this in timezones but not nearly enough).

 

Basically, unless you want a community of brats, as a dev you'd better reward for grouping and punish for soloing.

 

 

Ok, but you are doing the same thing. You are making value judgements based upon what you perceive is the outcome of solo content. Personally, I think you miss the mark. I've known MANY "soloers". These are men and women who have odd hours, don't mind grouping but would also like to take the content at their own speed.

And none of them are asshats. I would also like to point out that I have grouped with MANY asshats.

People who solo don't necessarily hate grouping. But they do have a need to experience the content in a way that makes sense to their lives.

It could be that they have odd schedules or want to take their time or even quickly push through the content.

In DDO I have done quite a lot of soloing because otherwise it ends up being a speed race to get through the instance. I remember on several ocassions being asked to help out and pretty much just following everyone's lead as it was a marathon speed session to get through it all. I still have no idea as to why I was doing the particular quest or the story behind it.

Another thing is that once in a group you have to suffer through the whims of the group. This could be anything from bad players, players who take too many breaks or who have very particular ways they want to do the current mission.

Or the incessant whining and complaining or just topics of conversation that one doesn't want to hear.

I also believe that many of the solers (myself included) mostly group in guilds because at least you can be with like minded people.

The thing is that this is never going to be agreed upon. This is the umpteenth millionth thread about the same topic.

What it comes down to is that there is a group of people who like to "group" and that they are having problems finding games that support this. Well, I'm sorry about that. My first bit of advice is that you just find other groupers. One would think that with all the threads that there would be more than enough to accomodate your playstyle. Of course then you have the argument that games aren't supporting groups. Not sure if that's true, or at least from the games I've seen. I always see people looking for groups.

And funny enough, there are always these disparate people looking for groups but none of them put 2 and 2 together to realize that "they" make up a group.

then again, perhaps they are part of those people who are looking for the perfect group.

The only reason we have the solo versus group problem is because the designers painted themselves into a corner.  Since they've made the games about nothing other than combat, loots, and classes, they've produced games that are vulnerable to being unfriendly toward one or the other.

I think the best accomodation a game can make to solitary gamers is a robust tradeskill or crafting segment.  The fact that the games these days don't offer anything other than PvP and PvE combat makes the solo/group issue become that much more sailent.

That being said, the best accomodation a game can make to group oriented players is to get rid of "/join."  That is to say, make it so you don't have to mechanically "group up" just to game with each other.

Really now, "grouping" as it is done today is just a contrived, immersion breaking gimmick designed to put "gameyness" over "immersiveness."  Just like we don't have to yell "/group" to do things with other people, so too should we be able to do things with as many or as few people we see fit without having some arbitrary "group" distinction as part of our experience.

The reason this solo versus group thing is such an issue is because the games these days are all about combat, and since there isn't anything else to do but combat, the designers are nothing more than tightrope walkers trying to balance the combat metrics and loot tables.  The developers want us to play combat games, not virtual simulations.

But if we abandon the concept of lootables and go toward crafting, all of the sudden the solo/group controversy starts to become meaningless, because killing things isn't the way gear is acquired.

And if we abandon the idea of having to "/join" a group in order to do things together, we no longer need to worry about "groups" or "solo players," because we'll all just play as solo players who come together.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

The only reason we have the solo versus group problem is because the designers painted themselves into a corner.  Since they've made the games about nothing other than combat, loots, and classes, they've produced games that are vulnerable to being unfriendly toward one or the other.

I think the best accomodation a game can make to solitary gamers is a robust tradeskill or crafting segment.  The fact that the games these days don't offer anything other than PvP and PvE combat makes the solo/group issue become that much more sailent.

That being said, the best accomodation a game can make to group oriented players is to get rid of "/join."  That is to say, make it so you don't have to mechanically "group up" just to game with each other.

Really now, "grouping" as it is done today is just a contrived, immersion breaking gimmick designed to put "gameyness" over "immersiveness."  Just like we don't have to yell "/group" to do things with other people, so too should we be able to do things with as many or as few people we see fit without having some arbitrary "group" distinction as part of our experience.

The reason this solo versus group thing is such an issue is because the games these days are all about combat, and since there isn't anything else to do but combat, the designers are nothing more than tightrope walkers trying to balance the combat metrics and loot tables.  The developers want us to play combat games, not virtual simulations.

But if we abandon the concept of lootables and go toward crafting, all of the sudden the solo/group controversy starts to become meaningless, because killing things isn't the way gear is acquired.

And if we abandon the idea of having to "/join" a group in order to do things together, we no longer need to worry about "groups" or "solo players," because we'll all just play as solo players who come together.

Well, there are a lot of good points there but I have to say that I like combat.

Whether it's a decent pvp system or even a challenging pve system, I am there for the combat. I want to play a hero of sorts, not be a tradesmen or crafter.

I avoid crafting in all mmo's. Can't stand it.

So though I think having other things to do for other types of players is great and should be there, I have to say that I ONLY want combat. Or puzzle solving... that can be fun.

I don't think I'm alone with this among people who do a lot of soloing.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Well, there are a lot of good points there but I have to say that I like combat.

Whether it's a decent pvp system or even a challenging pve system, I am there for the combat. I want to play a hero of sorts, not be a tradesmen or crafter.

I avoid crafting in all mmo's. Can't stand it.

So though I think having other things to do for other types of players is great and should be there, I have to say that I ONLY want combat. Or puzzle solving... that can be fun.

I don't think I'm alone with this among people who do a lot of soloing.

That's cool.  In fact, even if solo players don't craft and do combat only, I'd think that they'd come out better in a game where the gear is made by other players.

Because when gear is made by other players, combat ceases to be about loot, and becomes about gold.  gold-based rewards for combat are a lot more solo and group friendly than loot-based rewards.  Because in a loot-based system, the best gear requires a raid group, disadvantaging the soloer.  Likewise, in a loot-based system, someone (or perhaps many) in the group are going to come away empty handed, or without the loot they want or need.  Gold, however, can be traded for the equipment a soloer needs, and divided up between group members so that each can buy what they need.

The way I see it if people want to spend a monthly fee to play with themselves then go for it.

Originally posted by Briansho

The way I see it if people want to spend a monthly fee to play with themselves then go for it.

lol, har, har.