Originally posted by Abrahmm

Indie games is the only hope for this genre to get out of the endless cycle of regurgitated garbage being vomited at us over and over again. Money means absolutely nothing, as these gigantic companies have proven they can make a crappy game with millions of dollars, it's time to prove that ideas don't cost anything.

I predict the big companies will continue to make the same old crap for a couple more years, while an indie game will hit it big, causing the big companies to jump on the bandwagon in the same way they did with WoW.

^^^ Wisdom

Will the indie and small title MMOs deliver?  I hope so, because the AAA MMOs have made it very clear that they aren't up to the task.  Sure, they have enough money to generate hype through heavy marketing, but every single one of them fails to meet expectations and retain customers.  WoW was an anomoly, no one else will be able to recreate that type of success, not even Blizzard.

How does the saying go?  You can polish a turd all you want, but it's still a turd.  I guess this is true every where except the entertainment industry.  With movies, music ,and games, all you have to do is shovel together a steaming pile and pay some one enough money to paint and polish it...

Well as more and more tools get written to write MMO's the cost of making them will come down some.  This will give the indie companies a chance.  It is only  a matter of time before one hits the big time.  As to Darkfall, trying to do too much with a small team pretty much relegates this game to a real long shot.   Some of the other probably have a better chance.

Latching on to anyting and calling it a trend?

The requirement for a game is commercial sucess (i.e. making money). Without this, no matter how good the game is, no one will ever want to duplicate it... and as such the good ideas are lost.

Next year (2009) there will be at least half a dozen indie titles, as well as 20 (and still counting) commerical titles of various sizes. This means that whatever games thrive in this enviornment will be the games that are replicated (in 3 years).

The MMO industry isnt failing, in fact, despite a down economy (in the US) it is growing like never before. This is why every game maker is trying to get thier piece of the market.

Expect to see changes in the market because of the fierce competition... but remember that people vote with thier wallets, and that whatever makes the money, is what you will be seeing more of.

Originally posted by Kasimir

I think the MMO scene must die before it can evolve and rise like a Phoenix. It is stuck in a rut like no other, nohting new is coming onto the scene and peoples biggest hopes are games that cater to what MMOs were 10+ years ago. MMOs have not changed in any way in 5+ years all the while singleplayer games are running past them like sprinters beside a turtle, in terms of complexity, size and entertainemtn value. Today, you find the advanced games among singleplayers and the simple bubblegum crap among MMOs. Completly opposite compared to the birth of the MMO market (when they wanted to create more mature games for adults, and not everything aimed towards kids.) Its a fast downward spiral and people are jumping this genre. So.... It needs to die... They need to continue to make their mistakes and copy old concepts, then fail and die. They need to spend millions and years on game that can nto hold the attention of an average gamer for more than a few weeks, all the while the same gamers play a singleplayer game for 3 years... Then just die... In limbo... where all old ideas have failed... someone will rise up with a new generation of ideas, of creative thinking, get his inspiration form other sources than "what exists today" and then we will for the first time see real change, real evolution. The computer game market almost died like that when consoles started to get more advanced... It was all doom and gloom... Until the makers decided to not try to copy the consoles.. but instead do games that the consoles could not. More advanced and more detailed than jumping and shooting. It brought us to the games we play today.... We have the same problem now. I think the sollution is the same.

Make something others can not... and you will find the players. Copy what already exists... and people have already done it, they wont do it again. I have faith in CCP... But thats me. They really created something completly new last time. My hope is that they try to do it again, instead of jumping on the WoW train.

You are completely right !

MMO's have much more restrictions than single player games in everything from graphics to game design.

Too many people here are hooked up on playing the next big thing. It doesn't matter how many people play an MMO, no one is going to like you more because you play a popular title.

Provided the game is profitable and there are enough people on the server you play on for it to be fun, it doesn't matter whether it has 10k subs or 10mil subs.

Indie games in the next year or two will do fine, publishers come in and prop them up, we're even seeing new publishers jump into the fray like Take2. And also, pedigree does not mean they aren't indies, Cryptic is an indie studio and are working on Star Trek and Champions, they need massive finanical injections from the publisher to survive just like any other indie.

I just hope that this new breed of MMOs, and you can include Stargate and Star Wars in there, actually offer some more depth and challenge than the likes of WAR and AoC, those two are perhaps the most disappointing releases I've seen in this genre. Just because WoW is easy and user friendly, making a game even easier and more user friendly isn't necessarily going to get you a bigger share of the market. You can dumb things down too much and I think WAR is a prime example of this.

As the giant developers have been sucking with MMOs, I would say the indie's have a great shot.

Originally posted by bobfish

And also, pedigree does not mean they aren't indies, Cryptic is an indie studio and are working on Star Trek and Champions, they need massive finanical injections from the publisher to survive just like any other indie.

The official word is that Cryptic is self-publishing and 2K is only looking after the physical distribution of boxes around the world.

I don't know who is paying who for this service.

There are a ton of indie MMOs out there already. Looking at the games list I can easily see a handful of titles that didn't come out through a major publisher. There are plenty more out there if you look around - Meridian 59, A Tale in the Desert, Roma Victor, Shadowbane, Shattered Galaxy, Wizard 101 and there are plenty others.

Of course, what people are saying in this thread is they want a new MMO with just as much polish as existing MMOs and all the support structures they are used to that does the familiar better than what currently exists and contains some form of 'meaningful' PvP that they can win at.

The history of MMOs hasn't been indie firms rising up and creating revolutions; it's been the big companies pouring the money in to attract the larger audiences, then indies managing to find a niche that is hopefully profitable. I don't think for a second an indy firm is going to spring up with a game that changes everything because they are going to have a hard time attracting an audience and finding the money to polish a title as much as is necessary. Even EVE flopped on launch and it was only that the original publisher (Simon and Schuster (sp?)) sold the rights to EVE back to CCP (and cancelled a lot of the debt associated with EVE's development), followed by a period of a lot of work from CCP, that saw EVE grow into what it is today... and even that is considered niche among MMOs and probably unrepeatable. 

Originally posted by chryses

Like a lot of gamers on this site I have been playing MMO's for over 10 years and overall the experience I have had has been a good one.  However in recent years I have become increasingly concerned of the mass marketing, mass hype and mass promises firms are coming out with and only to deliver a bugged, inadequate  game that leaves a sour taste in the mouth.  As the years roll on and another major release is launched and does not come close to expectations I have become a pessimistic and unforgiving gamer.  Then I see more announcements that makes me sit up with excitement, Stargate Worlds, Star Trek and Star Wars the Old Republic but for me I can't help but think that these 3 games will go the same route as Vanguard, AoC and WAR etc.  Great fun for 2-4 weeks but as you scratch away the surface you see the same mechanics with a different wrapping. 

Its like your mum trying to make you eat vegetables as a child and telling you the pie, mash potatoes, pudding or casserole are all different but once you are a few bites in you realise its the same crap you ate the day before and spit it out in disgust.

So is the next big MMO coming from a firm with hundreds of employees or an Indie firm plugging away in a cramped office in the eastern block or sunny Greece?  I for one are keeping a very close eye on the Indie firms.  Its my prediction that the next generation MMO will be delivered by one of these firms as they are not bound to deliver a game that 'must' pull in 750k subs or please the common public even.  They are focusing on a mature audience that enjoys PvP, the consequences of PvP and are able to create a guild and make their mark without being hand held throughout the whole process.  

Yes I am excited about Stargate, Star Trek and Star Wars but my expectations are low.  For me the next MMO to revolutionise this market will rise from an Indie firm.  Prediction only but one I strongly believe in.

 

 

Darkfall will be succes if they deliver im 100% sure off that, but its for nich market hardcore only who love sandbox and full loot pvp.
 

The games you mentioned are just same ol same ol big IP´S but themepark, i think we already have plenty of those and only one is succefull wow, so these 3 will be nich in a mass market type of game then its a fail:P

 Hmm, this self-distributing made ma laugh. Not distributing is actually way better! Games only cost $20 when they puyblish their own game, and you buy it from their website, not in stores. Which is how much devs get for selling a copy of their game, the other $30 is because of the stores, transport, etc. 

So what do you prefer? A small self-publishing company, asking $20, or a big company charging $50? Well.. I'm saying big companies now, Guild Wars is only $20 from the online store too. :) 

Edit; just want to point you to a good example, which I think deserves more players! Try looking up Saga, great game, indie, very original, and somewhat free to play. You'll have to pay $20 for the full game later though. :)

Originally posted by Evasia

Originally posted by chryses

Like a lot of gamers on this site I have been playing MMO's for over 10 years and overall the experience I have had has been a good one.  However in recent years I have become increasingly concerned of the mass marketing, mass hype and mass promises firms are coming out with and only to deliver a bugged, inadequate  game that leaves a sour taste in the mouth.  As the years roll on and another major release is launched and does not come close to expectations I have become a pessimistic and unforgiving gamer.  Then I see more announcements that makes me sit up with excitement, Stargate Worlds, Star Trek and Star Wars the Old Republic but for me I can't help but think that these 3 games will go the same route as Vanguard, AoC and WAR etc.  Great fun for 2-4 weeks but as you scratch away the surface you see the same mechanics with a different wrapping. 

Its like your mum trying to make you eat vegetables as a child and telling you the pie, mash potatoes, pudding or casserole are all different but once you are a few bites in you realise its the same crap you ate the day before and spit it out in disgust.

So is the next big MMO coming from a firm with hundreds of employees or an Indie firm plugging away in a cramped office in the eastern block or sunny Greece?  I for one are keeping a very close eye on the Indie firms.  Its my prediction that the next generation MMO will be delivered by one of these firms as they are not bound to deliver a game that 'must' pull in 750k subs or please the common public even.  They are focusing on a mature audience that enjoys PvP, the consequences of PvP and are able to create a guild and make their mark without being hand held throughout the whole process.  

Yes I am excited about Stargate, Star Trek and Star Wars but my expectations are low.  For me the next MMO to revolutionise this market will rise from an Indie firm.  Prediction only but one I strongly believe in.

 

 

Darkfall will be succes if they deliver im 100% sure off that, but its for nich market hardcore only who love sandbox and full loot pvp.
 

The games you mentioned are just same ol same ol big IP´S but themepark, i think we already have plenty of those and only one is succefull wow, so these 3 will be nich in a mass market type of game then its a fail:P

Darkfall is already a huge success. It's a forum based game. YOu post about your ultimate perfect MMO, and call it Darkfall. Whatever you want in a game, Darkfall has it. When it doesn't come out this year, you just say, it'll be even better next year.

It's kinda fun, but the graphics aren't that great.

Originally posted by erandur

 Hmm, this self-distributing made ma laugh. Not distributing is actually way better! Games only cost $20 when they puyblish their own game, and you buy it from their website, not in stores. Which is how much devs get for selling a copy of their game, the other $30 is because of the stores, transport, etc. 

So what do you prefer? A small self-publishing company, asking $20, or a big company charging $50? Well.. I'm saying big companies now, Guild Wars is only $20 from the online store too. :) 

Edit; just want to point you to a good example, which I think deserves more players! Try looking up Saga, great game, indie, very original, and somewhat free to play. You'll have to pay $20 for the full game later though. :)

A self published game SHOULD always give away there "CLIENT" since they dont have money for advertising, word of mouth is the best way to gain new subscribers. No easier way to get people to try your product than by giving it away.

Originally posted by zombie_nixon

the days of big dinosaur companies is numbered.

*grins* Well, they definately will lose thier hold on the mmo market if they keep up the "cloning" *chuckles*

Originally posted by EvilGargamel

Sure AC started small until they were picked up by Microsoft. AC would have never made it if that did not happen.

Mythic had tons of experience and had plenty of money before making DAOC. They had lots of smaller multiplayer games selling through their online gaming center like MageStorm. It was even offered through America Online.

The odds that any indy company (that doesn't have tons of money to hire a pro team) making a commercial grade MMORPG is very slim.

I don't expect any of these games on this list to become anything more than C grade products IF they even lanuch at all.

There's alot more that goes into making a MMORPG then coding and art. You need good support, good updates, great marketing.. a good publisher..

Just to let you know, sometimes you dont need commercials. Word of mouth with a bit of advertising over internet is a powerful and inexpensive tool, you just have to get peoples attention, and bam!

Originally posted by PatchDay

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Indie games is the only hope for this genre to get out of the endless cycle of regurgitated garbage being vomited at us over and over again. Money means absolutely nothing, as these gigantic companies have proven they can make a crappy game with millions of dollars, it's time to prove that ideas don't cost anything.

I predict the big companies will continue to make the same old crap for a couple more years, while an indie game will hit it big, causing the big companies to jump on the bandwagon in the same way they did with WoW.

 

^^^ Wisdom

Pure wisdom. Its exactly what would happen. And personally. By then, i wont give a dime to the other companies and many dimes to that small indie developer actually doing something.

Another factor is that Indie firms do not have the resources spare to fly around the world waving their arms in front of tv screen acting out PvP battles and certainly do not have the time or money to make 3 minute uber videos which contain absolutely no gameplay but promote hysteria around their game.  The reason this is a benefit to their firm is that people do not have expectations that 'their' game will be the game to rule them all.  Indie firms attract a more mature type of game IMO and this creates a player base that are more understanding of bugs or other issues and will stick around because they can see the potential. 

EVE is a prime example of this in some ways.  The game at launch had massive issues but players like me knew it was different and it was worth sticking around.

Originally posted by MarL

Originally posted by erandur

 Hmm, this self-distributing made ma laugh. Not distributing is actually way better! Games only cost $20 when they puyblish their own game, and you buy it from their website, not in stores. Which is how much devs get for selling a copy of their game, the other $30 is because of the stores, transport, etc. 

So what do you prefer? A small self-publishing company, asking $20, or a big company charging $50? Well.. I'm saying big companies now, Guild Wars is only $20 from the online store too. :) 

Edit; just want to point you to a good example, which I think deserves more players! Try looking up Saga, great game, indie, very original, and somewhat free to play. You'll have to pay $20 for the full game later though. :)

 

A self published game SHOULD always give away there "CLIENT" since they dont have money for advertising, word of mouth is the best way to gain new subscribers. No easier way to get people to try your product than by giving it away.

aye give away the client.....  then charge $14.95 for the the serial # and first months subscription