The talent system is lame...  It's not so much the system as the balance. If you want to play end game pve - you HAVE to spec a certain cookie cutter way. If you want to pvp - a different cookie cutter spec is required to succeed. They give you 3 potential talent trees but, you can't choose fun stuff unless you just don't care to be in an end game raiding guild or a group that won't diss you because you aren't specc'd right etc.

I'm tired of not playing charactors the way I want to, that's kinda lame. Worst off is end game elitism. WoW is so damn ridiculously easy that my buddies 8 yr old lvls charactors like it's nothing, every charactor class can easily solo and there is virtually no penalty for death. Being "elite" in WoW's end game is totally lame due to the fact that you're "bragging rights" are based on simply listening to the raid leader and clicking a couple buttons repeatedly.

Another gripe - the community. Sense the game is so so insanely easy, you get a mass of young people who (if you pay attention to the chat channels) make the game alot less fun that it could be with an awesome community. I've been playing Eve Online for about 3 weeks now and the community is frikkin awesome - except when the occasional WoW player signs up for the free trial and complains about the learning curve. It's awesome to be playing a mmo that's fun and weeds out stupid people at the same time.

Apologies for the gripe but, I paid tons of money into this game, I think I'm entitled.

WoW does fall short in a lot of respects and the lack of depth to developing your character is just one example.

I resigned myself a long time ago to the fact that I wasn't playing an RPG, but rather a strange conglomeration of lots of different play styles. I think this is what a lot of people miss.

Until something of a smiliar size and scope of WoW but with deeper gameplay comes along, I'll be staying put.

I just respectfully disagree.  I have been playing since launch.  I have many characters.  I have never run out of things to do.  I have no interest in PvP, so that may discount my view for the OP.  End game PvE has never required me to build a talent tree in a particular way (I just choose what looks fun as I go), but does require having a good group to play with for the bosses.  Isn't it supposed to require that? 

I do notice a certain contradiction in the post, which was perhaps simply not clearly stated.  The first paragraph says the endgame is too hard unless you build a certain way.  The second paragraph says it is way too easy. 

As for the community - it's too vast to characterize.  I have met pretty much every kind of person.  Ignore the annoying, sift for the exceptional, be good to people... you'll find plenty of people to keep the game playable and fun.
 

The poster who notes the "conglomeration of playstyles,"  - I say, EXACTLY.  It is a very flexible game, despite being quest and class and level driven.  It is not a sandbox, nor is it intended to be, but given that fact, it is amazing how many different ways there are to approach it.  I notice that the posters who say WoW is inflexible or boring have a very narrow idea of the goal of the game (I don't attribute this to the OP, as he didn't say enough to be sure what his outlook is on the whole game):  gear, PvP "pwning," endgame.  But it's the journey, people.  It's the experimentation with builds that "shouldn't" work.  It's the many duos and trios and talent pairings that change the way you have to approach mobs and bosses.  It's the many ways of approaching the lore and the environment.  Engineering:  what a hoot!  Crafted gear being outclassed by drops or expansions only matters if you look at it that way:  you can make great stuff for your friends or your alts.  My general point is that it's all in how you look at it.  The game has many possibilities, and has a big player base because of that.

Peace to all.

Well, MMOs can learn a lot from pen and paper RPGs on how to develop your character, we still just get the same D&D ripp off in almost all MMOs and the MMOs are actually even worse than D&D today, at least you can choose from a lot of feats there.

The community is harder, Blizz do want to make money so they made Wow easy to play, so any kid can play it. There are other games that aim for a older playerbase like EQ2 and AoC. I can't really blame Blizzard for trying to make their game fun for as many as possible. Both those games have no real death penalty either however, few games today have.

You should actually do the trial for EQ2, it is better in those ways, even though Wow do have other good points. Just see that you play on a US server (you can choose or play on EU, US and asian servers with the same client), the EU servers seems to lagg a lot.

I have no comment on what you just said, I just love the oxymoronic title.

Originally posted by Pappy13

I have no comment on what you just said, I just love the oxymoronic title.

I'm not going to reply to your comment. I'm just glad to see that you're finally trying to make use of your word-of-the-day calendar.

Also, the OP has many valid points regarding the game.

WoW offers the most to people who have the most time to waste playing it. WoW validates the time sink via gear improvements which the players come to recognize as necessary for progress/success. In WoW moreso than in most other games, gear>skill. That is why children who play can still be successful. They may not have much skill, but they have plenty of time to spend getting that gear.

Originally posted by Spamalot345

Originally posted by Pappy13

I have no comment on what you just said, I just love the oxymoronic title.

 I'm not going to reply to your comment. I'm just glad to see that you're finally trying to make use of your word-of-the-day calendar.

Maybe this will help:

2 dictionary results for: oxymoronic

ox·y·mo·ron /??ks??m?r?n, -?mo?r-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ok-si-mawr-on, -mohr-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -mo·ra /-?m?r?, -?mo?r?/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-mawr-uh, -mohr-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation. Rhetoric.

a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”

By the way tomorrow's word is bombastic.  I'm looking it up now to see how to use it in a sentence. 

Think my biggest gripe after so much time playing is one of the most recent changes, the shift from classes to more generalized roles, and the worst part of it IMO is the changes they made to the gear with spell power.  I found it fun to try and get specific types of gear to stack a certain attribute, now it's all just rolled together.  Even worse is the elimination of +healing and merging it with spell power.  Yeah, it mighta been disappointing to be in a raid and drop a boss and have him drop +dmg cloth as a holy priest, or +heal mail as an elemental shammie... which is where alt spec gear, disenchanting, and general greed came into play.  Now one set of gear does all the roles and all the classes are gonna be fighting over 'em.  Kinda dumb IMO but it doesn't really affect me as my main is a rogue.

Originally posted by Zayne3145

WoW does fall short in a lot of respects and the lack of depth to developing your character is just one example.

I resigned myself a long time ago to the fact that I wasn't playing an RPG, but rather a strange conglomeration of lots of different play styles. I think this is what a lot of people miss.

Until something of a smiliar size and scope of WoW but with deeper gameplay comes along, I'll be staying put.

Ditto.
I play WoW out of desperation.
The game is fun enough, but it feels too much like a game.

I am waiting for a true MMORPG with a living world, good RPG elements, decent comunity, and a little bit more depth and immersion.
SoE seems to have given up on this and other developers looks like they are doing the same.

Only hope are the small indie devs, or maybe next Blizzard MMO.
Till something good comes out, I am resigned to play WoW.

"I do notice a certain contradiction in the post, which was perhaps simply not clearly stated. The first paragraph says the endgame is too hard unless you build a certain way. The second paragraph says it is way too easy. "

That is not what is being said in the first paragraph. The OP is talking about the fact that players and guilds will ignore you for end-game, hate that word in MMO's, raiding if you are not built a certain way.

People that want groups but have demands on how a toon is built, or what gear a toon has are a real drag. Seems a lot of time people forget that it is only a game.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Spamalot345

Originally posted by Pappy13

I have no comment on what you just said, I just love the oxymoronic title.

 I'm not going to reply to your comment. I'm just glad to see that you're finally trying to make use of your word-of-the-day calendar.

Maybe this will help:

2 dictionary results for: oxymoronic

ox·y·mo·ron /??ks??m?r?n, -?mo?r-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ok-si-mawr-on, -mohr-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -mo·ra /-?m?r?, -?mo?r?/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-mawr-uh, -mohr-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation. Rhetoric.

a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”

By the way tomorrow's word is bombastic.  I'm looking it up now to see how to use it in a sentence. 

Based on the quality of your response I figured you were setting up for "vacuous".

Originally posted by Spamalot345

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Spamalot345

Originally posted by Pappy13

I have no comment on what you just said, I just love the oxymoronic title.

 I'm not going to reply to your comment. I'm just glad to see that you're finally trying to make use of your word-of-the-day calendar.

Maybe this will help:

2 dictionary results for: oxymoronic

ox·y·mo·ron /??ks??m?r?n, -?mo?r-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ok-si-mawr-on, -mohr-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -mo·ra /-?m?r?, -?mo?r?/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-mawr-uh, -mohr-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation. Rhetoric.

a figure of speech by which a locution produces an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect, as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”

By the way tomorrow's word is bombastic.  I'm looking it up now to see how to use it in a sentence. 

 

Based on the quality of your response I figured you were setting up for "vacuous".

Damn, the calendar only goes thru 2008.  Maybe that one is in the 2009 calendar....I'm off to the store. :)
 

 To the OP: relax there are other games out there now. eq2 has a trail as mentionend.

if you have the money for it; buy AoC; its a good game for a month or two. It might be for you  or it might not;)

Originally posted by Mentat

The talent system is lame...  It's not so much the system as the balance. If you want to play end game pve - you HAVE to spec a certain cookie cutter way. If you want to pvp - a different cookie cutter spec is required to succeed. They give you 3 potential talent trees but, you can't choose fun stuff unless you just don't care to be in an end game raiding guild or a group that won't diss you because you aren't specc'd right etc.

I'm tired of not playing charactors the way I want to, that's kinda lame. Worst off is end game elitism. WoW is so damn ridiculously easy that my buddies 8 yr old lvls charactors like it's nothing, every charactor class can easily solo and there is virtually no penalty for death. Being "elite" in WoW's end game is totally lame due to the fact that you're "bragging rights" are based on simply listening to the raid leader and clicking a couple buttons repeatedly.

Another gripe - the community. Sense the game is so so insanely easy, you get a mass of young people who (if you pay attention to the chat channels) make the game alot less fun that it could be with an awesome community. I've been playing Eve Online for about 3 weeks now and the community is frikkin awesome - except when the occasional WoW player signs up for the free trial and complains about the learning curve. It's awesome to be playing a mmo that's fun and weeds out stupid people at the same time.

Apologies for the gripe but, I paid tons of money into this game, I think I'm entitled.

Why did it take you years to find out you dislike WoW?

Anyways they are working on a duel talent spec system, should help them min/max type of gamer out. i don't understand that type of gaming as i just spec a certain way i want and have fun with it, but to each their own.

not sure what game you can play characters the way you want to, seems they all have limitations in one way or the other.  yeah kids can play the game but i can pretty sure those people being asses in chat and elitests are in their 20's and higher, just about every server i have checked out the kids stay in goldshire.

i do know of a couple of young people who are way more mature then the adults and raid well, follow directions all that jazz, they don't brag about what they do or put people down.  Every game has elitists, especially in MMO's, if it bothers you that much probably better stay away from MMO's.

Is WoW an easy game? yeah pretty much, blizzard tries to cater to all gamer types that is why its so successful and that is why people hate it also, lot of long time MMO players got upset when blizzard opened up the wonderful world of MMO's to everyone, it was like these new folks were invading their domain.

yeah smaller communties are pretty nice, they are still filled with asshats and elitists and you'll see that soon enough in eve, i have seen it.  but seems you found a game you like good luck on that.

wonder why when someone new starts a game they are automatically assumed a wow player, i play wow i play eve, i consider them both easy -shrugs-

I think its pretty Elitist to look down on supposed WoW players trying to start a new game myself -shrugs-

Originally posted by Slampig

"I do notice a certain contradiction in the post, which was perhaps simply not clearly stated. The first paragraph says the endgame is too hard unless you build a certain way. The second paragraph says it is way too easy. "

 

That is not what is being said in the first paragraph. The OP is talking about the fact that players and guilds will ignore you for end-game, hate that word in MMO's, raiding if you are not built a certain way.

People that want groups but have demands on how a toon is built, or what gear a toon has are a real drag. Seems a lot of time people forget that it is only a game.

I guess if you absolutely have to be in a cutting edge guild that forces talent specs on their members, sure.  Otherwise there are plenty of guilds/people that could care less how you spend your points as long as you can get your job done.  

I know of plenty of guilds and raids that do not check talent specs at the door for admission. 

Why people post such extreme examples and pretend it is the norm is absurd. 

Why is it absurd to think that some people might want to see the end game content prior to it being nerved into easy mode before an expansion? You do realize that instances/raiding IS what most of the end-game content is developed around, don't you?

And how many of those guilds exploring end game content are going to be as laissez-faire as what you describe? The fact is, he makes a valid point, despite some deliberate efforts to obscure/derail it.

i raided as arms, when arms dps was poor, i dpsed as prot.. when there were no such thing

i afked when i felt like so.. i created my own guild when i wanted.. i rejoined my old one when the time was right, i still can raid with any spec or any class i want..

find decent guild.. or stop beying usless twat like you are atm ,  noone ever forced anyone to spec in anyway, ppl spec in one or another way if they feel it helps for guild progress if you cant spec for guild you dont deserve to be in one..

second part of your post doesnt even make any sense.. wth "any lvl char my sfiend shit wtf thats not even english " bullcrap.. every game is easy.. every game is soloable.. 99% of games released are solo games..

Originally posted by Spamalot345

Why is it absurd to think that some people might want to see the end game content prior to it being nerved into easy mode before an expansion?

4 years is not enough time?

And how many of those guilds exploring end game content are going to be as laissez-faire as what you describe?

Quite a few.  There are a lot more small casual guilds of 15 to 20 people than there are big hard core guilds with 50 or more people.

The fact is, he makes a valid point, despite some deliberate efforts to obscure/derail it.

That's one opinion.

......Waiting for Azrile to come defend his game like a rabid fanboi.OMG WoW lost a sub theyre shutting down servers now.Now what Azrile your game is dying.See we can all play your game.

 Some of you just need to learn to play WITH other kids, it's inherently diferent from playing alone.