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News & Features Discussion  » Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning: Live Event PQ Analysis

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53 posts found
  greydor

Novice Member

Joined: 2/03/06
Posts: 154

10/30/08 4:13:54 PM#21

 

guess i personaly didn't understand RVR and I wanted world PVP (Tarren Mill/Southshore battles)which as i have found out are 2 different beast

ran 1/2 dozen scenarios and remembered why I left WOW 2 years ago after dishonor kills finished off what was left of any world pvp in the game

pve in this game i would rather not think  about

 

  User Deleted
10/30/08 4:17:33 PM#22

1. It depends on your server. They are going to consolidate the lower population servers with a free character transfer to a higher population server.
2. Scenarios are fun, RvR is fun, PQ is good and fun with a good group. Then you have other quest, so that means that there are a lot of people doing different things.
3. Land masses are big.
4. Being in a guild does more RvR than PUGs. If you not in a guild, your fault.
5. It’s a new game. People are still checking each side and each class.
6. It’s a new game. Again people are learning tactics now. In several more months there will be Epic battle of which you have ever seen.


I was in the T2 area last night with my lower leveled Sorcerer, and had a blast

People do want to do RvR, but there are other things. This games isn’t going to die tomorrow, we have lots of time. And from my experience last night, its only going to get better.
 

  GaryM

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 249

10/30/08 4:18:58 PM#23
Originally posted by tkobo

Strange....... Why does no one find it odd, that the devs of a game supposedly built for and around RvR,have to hold live events to get their players to partake in RvR ?

It's probably difficult to anticipate exactly what your player base is going to gravitate too, and they miscalculated. During beta testing, people RvR'd more because, since they had no incentive to invest in progressing a temporary character, they concentrated on having fun. Once they purchased an account, they became more concerned with character progression, which is currently NOT sufficiently rewarded from RvR. Yes, I know, these forums are full of geniuses that can tell us in perfect hindsight how predictable that was, but unfortunately for all of us, none of them are designing and publishing games. Mythic has publically stated that they are aware of the lack of RvR and have plans to make it "the place to be," and hopefully that will happen soon. IMO, putting live events, PvE content and other rewards into the RvR lakes will do the trick. Once you manage to get into a big battle, it's insanely fun!


  Spiritof55

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 414

10/30/08 5:01:09 PM#24

My comment is somewhat off topic but was touched upon in the article.  Scenarios are killing rvr areas.  That is why some rvr areas seem empty most of the time. 

With scenarios you're quickly thrust into a group, no need to find one and there are always lots of enemies to fight.  With rvr areas you're left on your own to search for groups and hopefully find someone to fight.  There is more "work" involved with rvr areas.

How mythic managed to overlook a potential problem between people choosing scenarios over rvr areas is suprising to me.  They couldn't foresee this problem coming?

  brostyn

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/04
Posts: 3120

Cynical? Me? Never.

10/30/08 5:02:50 PM#25

I tried the PQs last night. I had no fun. I went back to scenarioes. That's were I have fun. I used to cry about scenarioes being too rewarding, also. Well, it sure beats RvR, imo. I'd rather grind scenarioes, than killing the same orc in a different custome 1000 times. I just wish Mythic would wake up and do battlegroup servers like WoW.

  Stradden

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 6729

 
OP  10/30/08 5:06:28 PM#26
Originally posted by tkobo

So your telling me the people who bought this game didnt want to RvR ?

Isnt it more likely ,they wanted to and hence BOUGHT the game ,but the game itself ,made them NOT want to ?

That the design was so incredibly screwed up, that it made people who bought the game with the purpose OF RvRing, not want to in this game ?

Call me silly, but that seems alot more likely to me.

That's exactly what people are saying, and it's exactly true. What an MMO is has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, mostly after the introduction of games like World of Warcraft. Like it or noit, that game is the model for a vast number of the people who are buying MMO titles. While there is indeed PvP in the game, it isn't the focus, especially early on. The focus there is PvE. That is the paradigm that has been set up for MMORPGs.

While some people do indeed read websites and follow a game's production, still more buy games without a great deal of prior research, leading to confusion when a AAA title MMO launches witha  focus that isn't directly relatable to the familiar WoW model.

Honestly, I wouldn't say that the design is "incredibly screwed up". I would say that a few tweaks and changes are needed to make the game work properly, but where the RvR lakes aren't as popular as the developers probably imagined, the scenarios are FAR MORe popular than they had planned, so in the end it's a bit of a wash if you're keeping score.

No one says this game doesn't have problems, but I don't think you're looking at the issues objectively before you post in disagreement with what others are saying.

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

  Stradden

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 6729

 
OP  10/30/08 5:12:00 PM#27
Originally posted by Spiritof55

My comment is somewhat off topic but was touched upon in the article.  Scenarios are killing rvr areas.  That is why some rvr areas seem empty most of the time. 

With scenarios you're quickly thrust into a group, no need to find one and there are always lots of enemies to fight.  With rvr areas you're left on your own to search for groups and hopefully find someone to fight.  There is more "work" involved with rvr areas.

How mythic managed to overlook a potential problem between people choosing scenarios over rvr areas is suprising to me.  They couldn't foresee this problem coming?

If you ask me, I think that the original design had created scenarios for average joe (please God, no plumber references) who wanted to engage in RvR, but didn't want to, didn't know how to become a member of a guild. RvR lakes, I think, were originally intended to be more suited for guild on guild action.

The problem arose when that didn't really come to pass. Personally, I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that most of the time, going into an RvR lake is hit or miss as to whether you'll have any opponents or not. I talked about it a little in the article.

So, while I DO recognize that there was an oversight / something the devs missed in terms of the design, I don't think it's necessarily the fault of the scenarios as much as weaknesses in the mechanics of the lakes.

 

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

  Lasastard

Novice Member

Joined: 3/31/05
Posts: 602

10/30/08 5:14:53 PM#28
Originally posted by tkobo

Strange....... Why does no one find it odd, that the devs of a game supposedly built for and around RvR,have to hold live events to get their players to partake in RvR ?

 

They wanted the WOW crowed and now they got them... only problem is that there is  particular mindset / experience that makes these people prefer grinding scenarios over going out in the RVR areas. Which is weird, if you think about it, as the main thing in WAR is raiding keeps and stuff, which  you can do already in Tier 2. Really, it's totally beyond me.

  tkobo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/06
Posts: 472

Current MMO dev teams = Keystone cops.A pure comedy of errors,sadly its not as intentional.

10/30/08 5:16:34 PM#29

"I think more accurately, people wanted pvp. However, when they saw how easy it was to get more epic battles in scenarios, they all went there.

It's not fun wandering around a rvr lake and not seeing anyone. It is more fun to immediately be put into queues and get immediate (and for the most part balanced) battles."

 

Which comes down to design.Instead of making it so "scenarios" were open missions inside large RvR zones, they choose to pull people away from those RvR zones into instances.

And instances that amount to capture the flag,that you dont even have to enter an RvR zone to access.

Imagine how full the RvR zones would be, IF scenarios were re-occuring RvR missions in the RvR zones....

IE -Order captures Bugmans,this triggers a caravan of weapons and npcs to  leave Bugmans heading for some Order warcamp/point inside the RvR zone (or a connected RvR zone).Players can now sign up to guard said caravan,for order, and destroy said caravan for Destro.....

Tie the damn RvR missions to events and conditions inside RvR areas .....Put 4 or five of each tied to each RvR point,have them fire 1 of the 4or 5 on a regular basis , with those who sign up getting rewards in addition to any kills when the mission succeeds...

 

  cdude93

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/08
Posts: 32

10/30/08 6:10:20 PM#30

I am also on Ulthuan, but my experiences last night could not have been more different.

I was really excited to participate in an event that encouraged open RvR. I first logged in on my T3 character and high-tailed it to the PQ area, which I never found, although it had a lot to do with the fact that there were a ton of order players running amok pretty much everywhere in the zone, making any travel inside the RvR lake neigh-impossible.

After an hour of being farmed for kills I decided to switch to my new T1 alt. I ran to Chrace, found the zone, but the place was completely deserted. There I sat, a naked rank 7 sorceress, when finally a rank 11 archmage showed up. "Finally, someone itching for a fight!" I thought to myself. The archmage spotted me, then proceeded to do an about-face and run back to their warcamp.

A few guildies joined me, two random people joined us, and we combed the area for another 30 minutes or so. Not another soul.

So, my two hours was completely unsatisfying, which is a huge bummer because I was very excited for this event.

But, on the upside, I did make some fun progress in Fallout 3. :)

  mackdawg19

Tipster

Joined: 5/28/07
Posts: 868

"If men were created equal, then what happened to game developers?"

10/30/08 6:16:45 PM#31

They should of never created mini-game scenarios. Instead they should of took a page from DaoC and had the scenarios be "mini" keeps. That way people could relate more with keep seiging. Also, they should add a control dungeon to the mix. Like what DF was to DaoC. But on an even larger scale, with raid bosses at the end for guilds, and solo mobs at the beginning for solo players, and the middle being for groups. I loved DaoC dungeons, and wish they had stuck with the same design.

  tkobo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/06
Posts: 472

Current MMO dev teams = Keystone cops.A pure comedy of errors,sadly its not as intentional.

10/30/08 6:22:47 PM#32

"What an MMO is has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, mostly after the introduction of games like World of Warcraft. "

That you can say such a thing without bursting into flame,or having it littered with uncontrollable LOLs is Absolutely Amazing.Amazing Straddon....hmm......has a ring to it.....

I forget, was it Koster who said (paraphrased)"Its important that the people who speak for you, believe" way back during EQ ?

Outside of graphics and amount of people in a game ,very LITTLE has changed in MMOs since the first days of The Realm and Meridian.In fact the industry has lost a few features.Where oh where has the mob looting defeated players gone ?Where oh where has being able to use "loot" as bait, to "pull" a mob gone ?

They are still just the modern day equivilant to badly done graphic muds .

Of course, people didnt blindly defend MMO companies back than, so we have that in the way of change ......and of course there was little to no MMO "journalism" .......

  cdude93

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/08
Posts: 32

10/30/08 6:36:45 PM#33
Originally posted by tkobo

Outside of graphics and amount of people in a game, very LITTLE has changed in MMOs since the first days of The Realm and Meridian.In fact the industry has lost a few features.

 

Gonna have to throw a QFE in right here. It's sad that people still fail to grasp this, or treat recent MMOs as if they are the genesis of the genre.

  WildShroom

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/08
Posts: 2

10/30/08 10:27:06 PM#34

All in all, I am discouraged and saddened to say that my personal belief is that WAR is a failure. I was too busy to join in the beta and kept my hopes that EA/Mythic would take to heart the Warhammer feel and game-play. I should go back to Shadowbane.

While every company ultimately makes any game for the big dollar, I had hoped that they did not sell out to be a WOW clone; they even sold the kitchen sink.

Getting to these PQ's was just too weak to entice me into the supposed fun. Participating in the subsequent RvR was a far second with even less enticement.

I am sure John only participated in all of this due to his 'job' of being editor here at MMORPG. I feel for you.
 

  Suraknar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/07
Posts: 808

*Everyone dies, not everyone really fights*

10/31/08 12:50:46 AM#35

Well, the question of Open RvR is a difficult and the reasons for the Lakes being empty are Multifold.

Permit me to share a couple, the major ones, that I got from people and I have observed in my time since Open Beta to now and as a Guild Leader.

#1 Reason, is Performance, many people are having performance issues with this game, Open RvR for them is simply unplayable and we are talking about people with 64bit single core computers Gforce 7000-8000 series video cards and DDR 400 Mghz memory, 1-2 gigs. It is disheartening to many that want to participate and just can't. The game is not optimised for fluidity yet, it just overloads PC's, and even higher end computers have issues, I myself am on a Triple Core (AMD) with 1066 Mgz Memory and Gf9600, and I still, since beta play with Lowest Settings (Albeit I can put on all effects and have maximum viewing distance) yet that is it, no lighting no Specular not even Grass. And in a protracted RvR battle my framerate slowly drops to 6 or a CtD insues, I still have to restart the game every 1.5h of play.

So performance is a big issue for many, and it keep them off the RvR lakes.

#2 Reason, is Scenarios. Scenarios trump Open RvR, it is a faster way, and a more accessible way for people to have fun PvPing and Devellop their Characters. Given the choice between queuing for a Scenario or trying to Coordinate with 100 people of different guilds from the Same realm, people just choose the Scenario.

#3 Reason, is RvR Perception. It seems that many people just don't associate RvR with PvP. And the way that the Game rewards Open RvR participation is more conductive to PVE activities rather than PvP activities.

Every single night there is guilds and warbands that form, on both Realms, and just avoid a direct clash with eachother taking turns Assaulting Empty fortresses and Keeps and "Raiding" Boss NPC's for a chance to roll on Purple Gear.

The PvP fun comes from Scenarios anyways, the Drops from Killing Keep Lords, which help one to be better...in the Scenarios for a better ranking in the damage meter.

These are the three major reasons why Lake RvR is not more busy than it is or is not taking Off.

---

Possible solutions? There are many actually.

Personally I think, first of all that Renown should come from Open RvR only. Second Gear Rewards should be made considerably better, with set bonuses as well, and these should either be obtainable from Renown vendors or Drop from slain players at much higher frequency that it is now inside the RvR lakes only.

No more Rolls for Gear from Keep Lords. Instead what Keep Lords or Successfully assaulting a Keep or a Fortress should do is give Trophies and Brag Rights. That guilds and Individuals can display for their acheivement, and these can also be better depending on if the Keep/Fortress was defended by players or not. If it was an empty Keep it should not reward anything other than permitting to complete the quest from the Capitals and the Tome Unlocks as well as Realm Contribution.

It could even be rewarding Bestial tokens. But no gear in the fashion it does right now.

Scenarios on the other hand, should reward Influence and experience rather than Renown and Experience. They could become the PvP way to obtain Influence which gives access to Influence Gear, as an alternative to Renown gear, and in the same spirit that WAR was built upon catering to both styles of play under the RvR premise, and common goal.

Puting all that together, it would mean that Renown only comes from open Conflict between the Realms, coincidently those that participate are also going to be those that get rewarded with the  better gear.

Armaggedon, will result, and maybe, just maybe, tales of 3 days long Sieges will spill over the Internet calling upon all avalable warriors to aid in the effort, and Fun.

Right now as it is, most people would laugh at the thoght of a Siege lasting 3 days, and it really has to do with the prevailing mentality result of the trends and habits of most players today.

To be just, the game is still in its infancy, and hasn't been around for much either, so hope is far from being lost. Much can change for the best, and 1.1 is just around teh corner.

- Duke Suraknar -
Order of the Silver Star, OSS


ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  daelnor

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/16/04
Posts: 1467

10/31/08 5:04:19 AM#36


Originally posted by tkobo
Strange....... Why does no one find it odd, that the devs of a game supposedly built for and around RvR,have to hold live events to get their players to partake in RvR ?


Because they went to such drastic measures to not make "DAOC 2.0" that they shot themselves in the foot.

They made scenarios instead of just open rvr. They didn't even have open rvr originally, they cobbled it in later, unfortunately.

What happened is that scenarios are quicker, easier, you still get xp and renown. It is much easier than organizing a huge warband to go take a keep. So people that only have an hour or two do that instead of RvR.

Plus everyone is still stuck in the "I have to get to the endgame" mindset, so they grind pq's and scenarios to get to lvl 40 so they can complain about a lack of content.

They should have just done DAOC battlegrounds, with a DAOC frontier, and pasted the Warhammer IP'ness overtop of it= instant win.

  HansHi

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/05
Posts: 7

10/31/08 5:05:07 AM#37

I had the same experience than some others, mostly negative (T2). The orders camped near the Destruction camp and it was no coordination possible to get out (mostly as orders outnumbered destruction 2:1, also I think this was because of the frustration of many players). I quit after two hours, constantly dying, and quite frustrated. The lack of possibilities to organise a warband are quite frustrating.

Another word for the event: the other quests (for the masks) are like 95% of the other Warhammer quests: kill 50 of that, 50 of that, 50 of that. Boah! ANY quest in Warhammer involves killing and is quite uninspired (like the PQ: kill 100 of them). I think the forcing to PvP is ok, as this is thefirst goal of War, but hell, although beeing a PvP fanatic, I do not want these uninspired kill X quests if I go PvE all the time. There MUST be interesting quests or even funny stuff inside War in the future in my opinion.

  Stradden

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 6729

 
OP  10/31/08 6:55:57 AM#38
Originally posted by tkobo

"What an MMO is has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, mostly after the introduction of games like World of Warcraft. "

That you can say such a thing without bursting into flame,or having it littered with uncontrollable LOLs is Absolutely Amazing.Amazing Straddon....hmm......has a ring to it.....

I forget, was it Koster who said (paraphrased)"Its important that the people who speak for you, believe" way back during EQ ?

Outside of graphics and amount of people in a game ,very LITTLE has changed in MMOs since the first days of The Realm and Meridian.In fact the industry has lost a few features.Where oh where has the mob looting defeated players gone ?Where oh where has being able to use "loot" as bait, to "pull" a mob gone ?

They are still just the modern day equivilant to badly done graphic muds .

Of course, people didnt blindly defend MMO companies back than, so we have that in the way of change ......and of course there was little to no MMO "journalism" .......

I wouldn't call it Amazing. I would call it paying careful attention. MMOs used to be more about the sandbox style and the sandbox feel, there used to be a bit more diversity in the way that design was approached. This is typical of a genre that has had some successes, but no real breakaway hit. That was pre-WoW. Anyone who doesn't think that WoW changed the way that the MMO industry makes games is deluding themselves.

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

  Stradden

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 6729

 
OP  10/31/08 6:57:14 AM#39
Originally posted by WildShroom

I am sure John only participated in all of this due to his 'job' of being editor here at MMORPG. I feel for you.
 

 

Nope, I actually really like the game. I play it for a few hours every day.

That doesn't mean I don't see problems with it and it doesn't mean I can't see why others may not like it, but I really am enjoying it.I'm sorry it wasn't for you.

 

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

  Paragus1

Highlighted Blogger

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 1746

Co-Leader of Inquisition
www.inqguild.net

10/31/08 7:30:36 AM#40

Good write up Jon.

Last night I logged on to go check out the event.  I play on Skullthrone which is one of the highest pop servers in the game.   I went to the T4 RvR lake and could not find the designated area for the PQ.  I was shocked that they confined it to a very small area.   Off and on through the night I went back to the area.  Almost everytime I went there, either one side or the other had a hug force just standing there waiting for the other team to come fight them, most of the time it didn't happen.   You would have the occasional stragglers come over and get steamrolled, then lose interest and leave.  After a few hours I gave up to go play Fallout 3.

Something is not quite right with this game at the moment.   I am in an alliance of about 4 large guilds, and I am noticing their numbers online at peak hours are becoming low.   There is a real lack of interest starting to set in.  It is looking like their first big patch might not be until December 1st, and honestly I am concerned about whether or not people will stick around that long to see if this whole thing is going to pan out.

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