Originally posted by ArcAngel3

So we've read some LA press releases about the upcoming Bioware, StarWars MMO.  Bioware has a fantastic reputation, but LA is not helping with their current marketting approach.  The strategy focuses on lessons they claim to have learned from SWG.

LA may be right that some people didn't like logging into StarWars Galaxies with a pistol, a melon and a desert full of womprats to shoot.  They also may be right that people didn't enjoy the whole process of killiing a trillion bols, wookies, etc. to try to unlock a jedi.

If, however, these are the only clear examples of what they've learned from StarWars Galaxies, this is going to leave people with a bad feeling.

Did they not learn that releasing a game with broken professions and quests is a bad idea?

Did they not learn that revamping the game (twice) after it went live was a bad idea?

Did they not learn that people strongly dislike having all of their ingame progress and professions deleted?

Did they not learn that surprising people with a complete revamp the day after an expansion release is a bad idea?

If they're going to talk about "lessons learned from SWG," I think they had better start including these in their list.  If they don't, people are going to assume LA didn't learn these lessons; and potential players may avoid the new StarWars MMO because LucasArts, the IP holder, it still out to lunch and capable of ruining yet another StarWars online experience.

They revamped the game 3 (large) times and many times in a smaller fashion.

Originally posted by Ezekiel77

As long as George Lucas himself has nothing to do with these games they have a chance. I'm sorry, but he blew his proverbial load with the first trilogy (of which he only directed Star Wars). I don't even consider the new trilogy canon. The people behind the original KOTR did an amazing job. KOTR II lost me somewhere near the end as they never really finished the game.

Well, well, well, Indiana Jones.

-George Lucas, South Park "The China Problem"

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

So we've read some LA press releases about the upcoming Bioware, StarWars MMO.  Bioware has a fantastic reputation, but LA is not helping with their current marketting approach.  The strategy focuses on lessons they claim to have learned from SWG.

LA may be right that some people didn't like logging into StarWars Galaxies with a pistol, a melon and a desert full of womprats to shoot.  They also may be right that people didn't enjoy the whole process of killiing a trillion bols, wookies, etc. to try to unlock a jedi.

If, however, these are the only clear examples of what they've learned from StarWars Galaxies, this is going to leave people with a bad feeling.

Did they not learn that releasing a game with broken professions and quests is a bad idea?

Did they not learn that revamping the game (twice) after it went live was a bad idea?

Did they not learn that people strongly dislike having all of their ingame progress and professions deleted?

Did they not learn that surprising people with a complete revamp the day after an expansion release is a bad idea?

If they're going to talk about "lessons learned from SWG," I think they had better start including these in their list.  If they don't, people are going to assume LA didn't learn these lessons; and potential players may avoid the new StarWars MMO because LucasArts, the IP holder, it still out to lunch and capable of ruining yet another StarWars online experience.

I am coming to the conclusion that you are absolutely right.
 

I genuinely fear, extrapolating from what has been said in interviews and reviews, that what LA has learned from the mistakes of SWG' is not how to make a game the players want but how to make 'a successful NGE'.

LA wants a Star Wars WoW - that's why it put through the NGE in the first place. That didn't work. So now they're having a do-over with Bioware.

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

To be honest I don't think it matters at all.

Oh sure, gamers and especially Star Wars gamers are going to find all of this of interest. But the average person who does like Star Wars and who did like the second trilogy is only going to see the release of a new Star Wars game. And it's online! They might go and look at some reviews but chances are they will just purchase it.

I don't think that the average player game player is very involved with all the SWG drama.

Oh, but the average game player is very involved with whether they're playing na good game or not. The makers of AoC and Hellgate London thought that a combination of hype and simplistic, linear game play would seem them through - they have been proved to be diasterously wrong.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

So we've read some LA press releases about the upcoming Bioware, StarWars MMO.  Bioware has a fantastic reputation, but LA is not helping with their current marketting approach.  The strategy focuses on lessons they claim to have learned from SWG.

LA may be right that some people didn't like logging into StarWars Galaxies with a pistol, a melon and a desert full of womprats to shoot.  They also may be right that people didn't enjoy the whole process of killiing a trillion bols, wookies, etc. to try to unlock a jedi.

If, however, these are the only clear examples of what they've learned from StarWars Galaxies, this is going to leave people with a bad feeling.

Did they not learn that releasing a game with broken professions and quests is a bad idea?

Did they not learn that revamping the game (twice) after it went live was a bad idea?

Did they not learn that people strongly dislike having all of their ingame progress and professions deleted?

Did they not learn that surprising people with a complete revamp the day after an expansion release is a bad idea?

If they're going to talk about "lessons learned from SWG," I think they had better start including these in their list.  If they don't, people are going to assume LA didn't learn these lessons; and potential players may avoid the new StarWars MMO because LucasArts, the IP holder, it still out to lunch and capable of ruining yet another StarWars online experience.

 

Really? Wait, you're serious. Why are you TRYING to find negative things to post about? You're picking this crap out of thin air, because you had to deduce to come to this conclusion. LA never said they didn't learn those lessons, but because they don't specifically say so, you assume they didn't, which is a very negative attitude to have.

Let's not forget that LA/Bioware has worked together twice before and both times were awesome. I can't help but be positive about this. Why can't you?

Heh, I don't have to look very hard to find negative things to say when it comes to LA and their handling of StarWars MMOs. 

When asked what they have learned from their experience with StarWars Galaxies, they could have mentioned an incredible list of important lessons.  Did they say, "we learned not to entirely revamp a live game?"  No they didn't.  Do people hope that they truly have learned this lesson?  You bet they do.

Instead, what do they say?  We learned that everyone wants to be a jedi!  If that's all they learned, they need an intervention.

I assume nothing.  They told me what they've learned from SWG, and I believe them.  If I want to conclude they've learned something else, then I'd have to start assuming. 

By the way, if you read my posts, you'd see that I am very optimistic about Bioware's game.  It's LucasArts handling of the public relations that leaves a lot to be desired.  If anyone is going to turn people off the new game, it's LA with their awful press releases.

Originally posted by Esquire1980

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

So we've read some LA press releases about the upcoming Bioware, StarWars MMO.  Bioware has a fantastic reputation, but LA is not helping with their current marketting approach.  The strategy focuses on lessons they claim to have learned from SWG.

LA may be right that some people didn't like logging into StarWars Galaxies with a pistol, a melon and a desert full of womprats to shoot.  They also may be right that people didn't enjoy the whole process of killiing a trillion bols, wookies, etc. to try to unlock a jedi.

If, however, these are the only clear examples of what they've learned from StarWars Galaxies, this is going to leave people with a bad feeling.

Did they not learn that releasing a game with broken professions and quests is a bad idea?

Did they not learn that revamping the game (twice) after it went live was a bad idea?

Did they not learn that people strongly dislike having all of their ingame progress and professions deleted?

Did they not learn that surprising people with a complete revamp the day after an expansion release is a bad idea?

If they're going to talk about "lessons learned from SWG," I think they had better start including these in their list.  If they don't, people are going to assume LA didn't learn these lessons; and potential players may avoid the new StarWars MMO because LucasArts, the IP holder, it still out to lunch and capable of ruining yet another StarWars online experience.

 

They revamped the game 3 (large) times and many times in a smaller fashion.

Quite so, I stand corrected.  I left with the second exodus, and so missed the third.

Originally posted by Lateris

Originally posted by Warmaker

We're talking about LucasArts here.  This isn't the same company from the 90s.

Amen to that. Now they are led by all the assholes who know nothing about making games. 

If I was Bioware, I'd be praying that LucasArts simply stops talking about the upcoming game altogether if this is how they're going to handle it.
 

Truly, I think they should sign over everything to Bioware and get the hell out of the way, so people who know what they're doing can work.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Lateris

Originally posted by Warmaker

We're talking about LucasArts here.  This isn't the same company from the 90s.

Amen to that. Now they are led by all the assholes who know nothing about making games. 

If I was Bioware, I'd be praying that LucasArts simply stops talking about the upcoming game altogether if this is how they're going to handle it.
 

Truly, I think they should sign over everything to Bioware and get the hell out of the way, so people who know what they're doing can work.

Sorry, reading the thread made me want to rant a little about Lucasarts.  So, here we go.

LA should let Bioware promote the game themselves.

Because I have no faith in LA ever since The Phantom Menace came out.  From that point on, they made a mad rush of releasing alot of cr*ptastic games.  You do recall all those useless, pointless, Prequel era games?  What also made me upset with LA was the obvious decision to ignore the Original Trilogy era for YEARS after Ep.I came out.  X-Wing Alliance was the last good "Old School Lucasarts Game."

The developers of X-Wing Alliance, Totally Games, was set on making an Imperial-centered expansion or upgrade to XWA.  Sort of like how the old TIE Fighter game was to the original X-Wing game.  Us die hard fans of the X-Wing series were anticipating this, but s**t happened (i.e. The Phantom Menace), and this hope died with it.  What we got were half-a-dozen rushed, poorly made games.

In the 90s, I could count Lucasarts to push out a great game or two every year (or expansions).  Ever since late '99, it isn't the case.  Lucasarts maybe puts out 1 good game every few years now.

A d**n shame.

This really boils down to who they learned that lesson from, are they referring to those who played or those who didn't? They know those who played had no problem jumping into a game with nothing but a gun and a piece of fruit. The problem is the 11 million people playing WOW did.

The tedious game play that we loved is exactly why SWG never reached the potential of the I.P., soe didn't help matters for sure. However, the game was by today's standard a flop, considering the I.P..

I'm not saying LA should be thinking this way, but there's a very good reason why they are. They want wow levels of success, which if they pull off more power to them. If they're smart they'll let bioware do their thing. There's no reason considering all the money backing this game, they should release it before it's done.

The sad reality is star wars is for a different generation now, we had ours we can watch it whenever, we can read into the future to see what happens. The problem is kids today don't read, the only way to catch their attention is through flashy toons and nonsensical humor.

Look at the new cartoon, personally I watch it( it has it's moments), but that reality is completely apparent in this new star wars. Indiana Jones had the same quirkiness, as will anything else Lucas puts out in the future.

I agree with Warmaker that LA had a run of less than stellar, rushed out titles over a number of years.  In fact, they apologized for this in a press release, and promised to handle the IP with more respect.  Yes, another "we've learned from our mistakes" press release.  Trouble was, they said this before StarWars Galaxies was pushed out the door with missing and broken parts.

I also agree with Malickie that LA is targetting the people that didn't want melon.  I also think this makes sense.  This is where the "sense" stops for me though.  Did they learn that many people would rather have a lightsaber than a melon?  Fine, good on them.  Why do they seem incapable of learning this lesson and at the same time learn that people don't want their game revamped after it goes live?

A sample press release that incorporates both lessons and appeals to both WoW and SWG fans might read something like this:

"We're very excited about our upcoming StarWars MMO project with Bioware.  We think it's going to offer some things that have never been seen before in online video games.   We've also learned some valuable lessons from our past experience with Galaxies.  We know that when people log into a StarWars game, they expect action.  People told us that Galaxies didn't feel like the heroic gaming experience they expected.  We also learned a few things about managing a live game.  For example, people expect a high quality, immersive experience, and they don't want the rules of the game changed part way through."

Honestly would that be such a hard thing for LA to say?

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

So we've read some LA press releases about the upcoming Bioware, StarWars MMO.  Bioware has a fantastic reputation, but LA is not helping with their current marketting approach.  The strategy focuses on lessons they claim to have learned from SWG.

LA may be right that some people didn't like logging into StarWars Galaxies with a pistol, a melon and a desert full of womprats to shoot.  They also may be right that people didn't enjoy the whole process of killiing a trillion bols, wookies, etc. to try to unlock a jedi.

If, however, these are the only clear examples of what they've learned from StarWars Galaxies, this is going to leave people with a bad feeling.

Did they not learn that releasing a game with broken professions and quests is a bad idea?

Did they not learn that revamping the game (twice) after it went live was a bad idea?

Did they not learn that people strongly dislike having all of their ingame progress and professions deleted?

Did they not learn that surprising people with a complete revamp the day after an expansion release is a bad idea?

If they're going to talk about "lessons learned from SWG," I think they had better start including these in their list.  If they don't, people are going to assume LA didn't learn these lessons; and potential players may avoid the new StarWars MMO because LucasArts, the IP holder, it still out to lunch and capable of ruining yet another StarWars online experience.

 

Really? Wait, you're serious. Why are you TRYING to find negative things to post about? You're picking this crap out of thin air, because you had to deduce to come to this conclusion. LA never said they didn't learn those lessons, but because they don't specifically say so, you assume they didn't, which is a very negative attitude to have.

Let's not forget that LA/Bioware has worked together twice before and both times were awesome. I can't help but be positive about this. Why can't you?

Heh, I don't have to look very hard to find negative things to say when it comes to LA and their handling of StarWars MMOs. 

When asked what they have learned from their experience with StarWars Galaxies, they could have mentioned an incredible list of important lessons.  Did they say, "we learned not to entirely revamp a live game?"  No they didn't.  Do people hope that they truly have learned this lesson?  You bet they do.

Instead, what do they say?  We learned that everyone wants to be a jedi!  If that's all they learned, they need an intervention.

I assume nothing.  They told me what they've learned from SWG, and I believe them.  If I want to conclude they've learned something else, then I'd have to start assuming. 

By the way, if you read my posts, you'd see that I am very optimistic about Bioware's game.  It's LucasArts handling of the public relations that leaves a lot to be desired.  If anyone is going to turn people off the new game, it's LA with their awful press releases.

You put the word "all" in your sentence when saying if all they learned was this. Were LA asked to list "all" they learned from SWG or just what they learned? Also, be reasonable. If someone asked me to list all I've learned from MMORPGs, that'd be too much to list and I'm not even a developer. So chances are they listed just a few things and not every single thing out there. Plus, if they did list the largest mistake that we all know about, it'd only open the door to discussion about that subject, which they probably wanted to avoid. You don't want a huge argument and bitch session at these things, and I'm making an educated guess that that's what would have happened.

If I fealt that negative about something, like you do, I'd just assume not deal with their company. This is why I don't play SoE games anymore. I do not go on the forums and create threads about how I don't like this or that about a company. I don't find it very productive and that kind of negativity is bad for the soul.

Anyways, I won't argue this further, because it's just dumb. If you want to jump to conclusions because they ommitted a few things for reasons unknown, then go right ahead.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

So we've read some LA press releases about the upcoming Bioware, StarWars MMO.  Bioware has a fantastic reputation, but LA is not helping with their current marketting approach.  The strategy focuses on lessons they claim to have learned from SWG.

LA may be right that some people didn't like logging into StarWars Galaxies with a pistol, a melon and a desert full of womprats to shoot.  They also may be right that people didn't enjoy the whole process of killiing a trillion bols, wookies, etc. to try to unlock a jedi.

If, however, these are the only clear examples of what they've learned from StarWars Galaxies, this is going to leave people with a bad feeling.

Did they not learn that releasing a game with broken professions and quests is a bad idea?

Did they not learn that revamping the game (twice) after it went live was a bad idea?

Did they not learn that people strongly dislike having all of their ingame progress and professions deleted?

Did they not learn that surprising people with a complete revamp the day after an expansion release is a bad idea?

If they're going to talk about "lessons learned from SWG," I think they had better start including these in their list.  If they don't, people are going to assume LA didn't learn these lessons; and potential players may avoid the new StarWars MMO because LucasArts, the IP holder, it still out to lunch and capable of ruining yet another StarWars online experience.

 

Really? Wait, you're serious. Why are you TRYING to find negative things to post about? You're picking this crap out of thin air, because you had to deduce to come to this conclusion. LA never said they didn't learn those lessons, but because they don't specifically say so, you assume they didn't, which is a very negative attitude to have.

Let's not forget that LA/Bioware has worked together twice before and both times were awesome. I can't help but be positive about this. Why can't you?

Heh, I don't have to look very hard to find negative things to say when it comes to LA and their handling of StarWars MMOs. 

When asked what they have learned from their experience with StarWars Galaxies, they could have mentioned an incredible list of important lessons.  Did they say, "we learned not to entirely revamp a live game?"  No they didn't.  Do people hope that they truly have learned this lesson?  You bet they do.

Instead, what do they say?  We learned that everyone wants to be a jedi!  If that's all they learned, they need an intervention.

I assume nothing.  They told me what they've learned from SWG, and I believe them.  If I want to conclude they've learned something else, then I'd have to start assuming. 

By the way, if you read my posts, you'd see that I am very optimistic about Bioware's game.  It's LucasArts handling of the public relations that leaves a lot to be desired.  If anyone is going to turn people off the new game, it's LA with their awful press releases.

 

You put the word "all" in your sentence when saying if all they learned was this. Were LA asked to list "all" they learned from SWG or just what they learned? Also, be reasonable. If someone asked me to list all I've learned from MMORPGs, that'd be too much to list and I'm not even a developer. So chances are they listed just a few things and not every single thing out there. Plus, if they did list the largest mistake that we all know about, it'd only open the door to discussion about that subject, which they probably wanted to avoid. You don't want a huge argument and bitch session at these things, and I'm making an educated guess that that's what would have happened.

If I fealt that negative about something, like you do, I'd just assume not deal with their company. This is why I don't play SoE games anymore. I do not go on the forums and create threads about how I don't like this or that about a company. I don't find it very productive and that kind of negativity is bad for the soul.

Anyways, I won't argue this further, because it's just dumb. If you want to jump to conclusions because they ommitted a few things for reasons unknown, then go right ahead.

I guess it's your perogative to say that this is "dumb," but it's not likely to be very productive.  I'm less likely to listen to your point of view if it becomes insulting in some way.

I suppose you can also accuse me of jumping to conclusions.  So despite the tone here, I've reflected on this.  Am I jumping to conclusions?

If people got burned by having their game revamped over and over again, don't you think they want to hear if LucasArts has learned not to do this?  Honestly, I think people do want to hear this.  I think, therefore, that it's an important message, one that should be included in LA press releases about what they have learned from their SWG experience.  I don't think I'm really going out on a limb here, or jumping to any conclusions. 

I'll give you an analogy.  Guy has sex with a goat and gets some wicked disease.  When asked what he learned from the experience, he says, "I should have used a condom."  I'm thinking buddy ought to have learned something else, and if he fails to mention that, people are going to notice.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I agree with Warmaker that LA had a run of less than stellar, rushed out titles over a number of years.  In fact, they apologized for this in a press release, and promised to handle the IP with more respect.  Yes, another "we've learned from our mistakes" press release.  Trouble was, they said this before StarWars Galaxies was pushed out the door with missing and broken parts.

I also agree with Malickie that LA is targetting the people that didn't want melon.  I also think this makes sense.  This is where the "sense" stops for me though.  Did they learn that many people would rather have a lightsaber than a melon?  Fine, good on them.  Why do they seem incapable of learning this lesson and at the same time learn that people don't want their game revamped after it goes live?

A sample press release that incorporates both lessons and appeals to both WoW and SWG fans might read something like this:

"We're very excited about our upcoming StarWars MMO project with Bioware.  We think it's going to offer some things that have never been seen before in online video games.   We've also learned some valuable lessons from our past experience with Galaxies.  We know that when people log into a StarWars game, they expect action.  People told us that Galaxies didn't feel like the heroic gaming experience they expected.  We also learned a few things about managing a live game.  For example, people expect a high quality, immersive experience, and they don't want the rules of the game changed part way through."

Honestly would that be such a hard thing for LA to say?

It definitely shouldn't be hard for them, I really have no guess as to why they didn't acknowledge those things. People tend to learn only what they want to learn from a situation if you catch my drift. It's entirely possible they were oblivious to the lessons they could have learned from maintaining SWG in a live state. Maybe their focus was completely on why people weren't rushing to play the game with the Star Wars title.If there's anything we know about LA they think the very hint of star wars moves products off shelves.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I guess it's your perogative to say that this is "dumb," but it's not likely to be very productive.  I'm less likely to listen to your point of view if it becomes insulting in some way.

I suppose you can also accuse me of jumping to conclusions.  So despite the tone here, I've reflected on this.  Am I jumping to conclusions?

If people got burned by having their game revamped over and over again, don't you think they want to hear if LucasArts has learned not to do this?  Honestly, I think people do want to hear this.  I think, therefore, that it's an important message, one that should be included in LA press releases about what they have learned from their SWG experience.  I don't think I'm really going out on a limb here, or jumping to any conclusions. 

I'll give you an analogy.  Guy has sex with a goat and gets some wicked disease.  When asked what he learned from the experience, he says, "I should have used a condom."  I'm thinking buddy ought to have learned something else, and if he fails to mention that, people are going to notice.

I guess that's where you and I differ. I see SoE as the main culprit behind the game changes, not LA. It shows in the way they changed EQ2. LA had no control over EQ2, but SOE made large changes to that game as well. No, I think LA had little to do with why you're upset with them. I've never had trouble with LA or the games they made. I think you're anger is misguided. It should be directed towards SOE, not LA. I guess that's why we aren't seeing eye to eye on this issue. You think LA is the blame for SWG while I think SOE is. I understand that people on mmorpg.com think it's LA's fault, but I don't believe that.

So in my opinion, LA's answer shoudl be "not to work with SoE again," because they sold game changes to LA that lost a lot of money. I don't need LA to tell me they learned not to agree with a company to change their game, because that's a given.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I guess it's your perogative to say that this is "dumb," but it's not likely to be very productive.  I'm less likely to listen to your point of view if it becomes insulting in some way.

I suppose you can also accuse me of jumping to conclusions.  So despite the tone here, I've reflected on this.  Am I jumping to conclusions?

If people got burned by having their game revamped over and over again, don't you think they want to hear if LucasArts has learned not to do this?  Honestly, I think people do want to hear this.  I think, therefore, that it's an important message, one that should be included in LA press releases about what they have learned from their SWG experience.  I don't think I'm really going out on a limb here, or jumping to any conclusions. 

I'll give you an analogy.  Guy has sex with a goat and gets some wicked disease.  When asked what he learned from the experience, he says, "I should have used a condom."  I'm thinking buddy ought to have learned something else, and if he fails to mention that, people are going to notice.

 

I guess that's where you and I differ. I see SoE as the main culprit behind the game changes, not LA. It shows in the way they changed EQ2. LA had no control over EQ2, but SOE made large changes to that game as well. No, I think LA had little to do with why you're upset with them. I've never had trouble with LA or the games they made. I think you're anger is misguided. It should be directed towards SOE, not LA. I guess that's why we aren't seeing eye to eye on this issue. You think LA is the blame for SWG while I think SOE is. I understand that people on mmorpg.com think it's LA's fault, but I don't believe that.

So in my opinion, LA's answer shoudl be "not to work with SoE again," because they sold game changes to LA that lost a lot of money. I don't need LA to tell me they learned not to agree with a company to change their game, because that's a given.

I think we're getting closer to understanding each other, and that's cool :).  Actually, I agree with you that SOE is largely responsible for the SWG problems.  Lol, believe me, SOE sure knows I think that :).  Neither company is exempt of responsibility mind you, but I'll agree that SOE directly did some very unhelpful things, and they've acknowledged that.

I also agree that LA shouldn't work with SOE again (unless they have a huge change in leadership and philosophy).  So we agree on that as well.

I also think that the Bioware MMO will probably be very cool.  Again, I think we're both optimistic.

Perhaps where we differ (though perhaps not, now that we're understanding each other better) is that I think if LucasArts is going to bring up lessons learned from SWG at all, they should at the very least acknowledge that fundamentally changing an MMO after it goes live is a bad idea, especially when it causes players to lose all of their progress, and especially after players were promised something else.

If they didn't mention "lessons learned from SWG" at all that would probably be better, in my view, than bringing up the subject and failing to mention these critical issues.

You may be right in that shifting to Bioware means that LA has learned the things I'm talking about.  By mentioning "lessons learned" though, and leaving these things out, I think it makes this less clear.  I guess I'm saying I think it would be more helpful for them to either not talk about SWG at all, or if they do, make sure they talk about it in a way that truly reassures players that they're now on a better track.  I think they have some work to do on their messaging in this regard.

Thanks for the respectful dialogue by the way, I enjoyed this post of yours, and the discussion. 

LucasArts is doing a heroic job of heroically promoting the heroic MMO that BioWare is heroically working on.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

I guess it's your perogative to say that this is "dumb," but it's not likely to be very productive.  I'm less likely to listen to your point of view if it becomes insulting in some way.

I suppose you can also accuse me of jumping to conclusions.  So despite the tone here, I've reflected on this.  Am I jumping to conclusions?

If people got burned by having their game revamped over and over again, don't you think they want to hear if LucasArts has learned not to do this?  Honestly, I think people do want to hear this.  I think, therefore, that it's an important message, one that should be included in LA press releases about what they have learned from their SWG experience.  I don't think I'm really going out on a limb here, or jumping to any conclusions. 

I'll give you an analogy.  Guy has sex with a goat and gets some wicked disease.  When asked what he learned from the experience, he says, "I should have used a condom."  I'm thinking buddy ought to have learned something else, and if he fails to mention that, people are going to notice.

 

I guess that's where you and I differ. I see SoE as the main culprit behind the game changes, not LA. It shows in the way they changed EQ2. LA had no control over EQ2, but SOE made large changes to that game as well. No, I think LA had little to do with why you're upset with them. I've never had trouble with LA or the games they made. I think you're anger is misguided. It should be directed towards SOE, not LA. I guess that's why we aren't seeing eye to eye on this issue. You think LA is the blame for SWG while I think SOE is. I understand that people on mmorpg.com think it's LA's fault, but I don't believe that.

So in my opinion, LA's answer shoudl be "not to work with SoE again," because they sold game changes to LA that lost a lot of money. I don't need LA to tell me they learned not to agree with a company to change their game, because that's a given.

 

I think we're getting closer to understanding each other, and that's cool :).  Actually, I agree with you that SOE is largely responsible for the SWG problems.  Lol, believe me, SOE sure knows I think that :).  Neither company is exempt of responsibility mind you, but I'll agree that SOE directly did some very unhelpful things, and they've acknowledged that.

I also agree that LA shouldn't work with SOE again (unless they have a huge change in leadership and philosophy).  So we agree on that as well.

I also think that the Bioware MMO will probably be very cool.  Again, I think we're both optimistic.

Perhaps where we differ (though perhaps not, now that we're understanding each other better) is that I think if LucasArts is going to bring up lessons learned from SWG at all, they should at the very least acknowledge that fundamentally changing an MMO after it goes live is a bad idea, especially when it causes players to lose all of their progress, and especially after players were promised something else.

If they didn't mention "lessons learned from SWG" at all that would probably be better, in my view, than bringing up the subject and failing to mention these critical issues.

You may be right in that shifting to Bioware means that LA has learned the things I'm talking about.  By mentioning "lessons learned" though, and leaving these things out, I think it makes this less clear.  I guess I'm saying I think it would be more helpful for them to either not talk about SWG at all, or if they do, make sure they talk about it in a way that truly reassures players that they're now on a better track.  I think they have some work to do on their messaging in this regard.

Thanks for the respectful dialogue by the way, I enjoyed this post of yours, and the discussion. 

Everything that has been said by anyone from LEC since the TOR announcement has indicated they learned absolutely nothing from the massive mistakes made with SWG.  The only thing that I have taken away from every interview with an LEC representative about TOR is that they think the game need to be even more like the NGE than the NGE was.  There has yet to be any indication that they understand why the NGE failed, other than it wasn't 'heroic' enough.

I have to temper my revulsion of everything being said by the folks at LEC (and in some cases BioWare), with the fact that BioWare has yet to make a game I didn't like.  Unfortunately, the folks making the MMO are not, aside from one or two people, the folks who made the other BioWare games.  I really like the idea of a Star Wars MMO that isn't tainted by SOE, but the fact that the LEC producers keep claiming to know what Star Wars fans want, while saying things that show that statement to be completely false, makes me very worried about the game.  I am secure in the knowledge that it can't be worse than the current version of SWG, but there is a good chance of it not being that much better.

I'm at the point where WoW with a Star Wars skin will surpass my expectations.  It wouldn't be a great game, but it is much more likely to be worth playing than the game the folks from LEC have been talking about so far.

If the new game is going to be NGE II, it will fail.

And LEC definitely doesn't understand the Star Wars fan base.  First off, the "casual" Star Wars fan doesn't really exist anymore, there are no more new movies.  The "hardcore" or lifetime Star Wars fan (which is most of us) is large, but falls far short of WOW type numbers, and, most importantly are not people who will want to play a simple game.  I think had Pre-CU been fixed and expanded upon for the last 4 years SWG would have achieved EVE style success, grown over time, and today be approaching 500K-1M subs, but I also believe this is the UPPER limit a Star Wars MMO is likely to achieve.

So, no matter what, SWTOR is likely to, like the original game, fall far short of the dollar signs in the stratosphere LEC/EA think they are going to get.  And we know how dangerous those people are when this happens because of the past.  I foresee whatever in SWTOR that DOES make it unique, or complex, or at all appealing to hardcore Star Wars fans being ripped out, much as the Pre-CU had some ripped out for CU, and most of the rest for NGE, as people have pointed out rightly that if you take their PR statements as what they actually think, they've learned jack shit from the NGE.

 Maybe it's just me, but didn't most of the fanbase dislike "heroic, iconic, starwarsy".... I don't understand that mentality at all.  Story-wise, it sucks.  How is everyone a hero?  This is why I'm worried it's just going to be a single player game because not everyone can be a hero.  By making everyone "heroic" they have already watered down the story and I can get a pretty clear idea of the kind of (crappy) MMO they'll make.  I foresee a mass exodus after a month when everyone has finished the story.

Originally posted by demalus

 Maybe it's just me, but didn't most of the fanbase dislike "heroic, iconic, starwarsy".... I don't understand that mentality at all.  Story-wise, it sucks.  How is everyone a hero?  This is why I'm worried it's just going to be a single player game because not everyone can be a hero.  By making everyone "heroic" they have already watered down the story and I can get a pretty clear idea of the kind of (crappy) MMO they'll make.  I foresee a mass exodus after a month when everyone has finished the story.

Yeah, I agree.  I never wanted to be Luke Skywalker when I started playing SWG.  In fact, he's nowhere close to being my favorite Star Wars character and hasn't been since I passed puberty.