Ok, I am sorry it rings like doomsaying, but its now or never. That Lucasarts guy in the IGN interview said you (Bioware) and Lucasarts now want to listen more than in SWG.

Now here is what I have to say:

You are making a BIG mistake. Sorry to say, but if you follow down that road as I see it, you are going to screw BIG time. Yeah, I am leaning out of the window way long saying this, but its my firm believe.

1) Aiming for a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics and oversized weapons and stuff is a mistake. A FAR greater part of the SW fandom and of MMOs today are older guys. Its just a fact, the MMO genre changed. Many people today are rather dads and moms of kids instead of kids. I know you think to catch the kids, but sorry to say many of them dont care a crap about Star Wars. They play faster paced games, and MOSTLY: those kids by and large have ZERO patience for stories. IF those kids play MMOs, they want MMOs where they dont need to think, like WOW. Moral dilemmas, story-driven characters and ethical choices are just not what a vast, vast number of kids will ever want. The entire story-driven idea of lasting moral choices is asking for a much more mature audience, an audience which by and large asks for a much more realistic graphics. So essentially you mix two things which dont belong together: serious story and cartoony design.

2) Theme Park: Some Bioware guy said it in the recent Ten Ton Hammer interview and that word freaked the living hell out of me. One of the recently most criticized facts about Warhammer is the Theme Park design. In Warhammer I never felt like in a living, breathing world, but in a Disney Land Theme Park, hook nosed from event to event. Sure, it appeals some people, but it also creates a very sterile and confined experience, and in the long run such a game design can only loose. Why? Because NO one can make so many themes in a theme park as to entertain people such a long time. People need space to breath, to realize their OWN dreams and not be led through event tunnels with only left or right to chose in some conversation tree. I am all for stories which shape the character, but people NEED to have ordinary lives, only in that contrast the heroic things can stand out! If everything is a heroic story, NOTHING in the end matters anymore. People need an open world, they need to have choices and not an all guided theme park! They need the freedom to create their own lives, their own worlds, their own cities!

3) Dont make this game a soloing heaving. I never understood the drive to support the all-soloing thing. Why do people subscribe to MMOs, when they want to solo all the time? Now the problem is, once you allow all to be soloed, most people DO solo most of the time. You NEED to make obstacles only to be overcome by groups, by social organization, by working together, or people will not form groups. Its just reality, and the last thing Star Wars deserves is a story-soloing world, where everyone is alone in his story and the only thing people do together is a public chat channel. That would be no MMO! I hear a lot of things people can do alone, their lone stories, their solo experience, their companions to replace the REAL human players. I hear zero about working together, about forming teams. Wasnt that the thing to go to MMOs? Where is the "we" in all of this? People need social bonds to stay in a MMO, and social bonds are formed when a game demands it. Many people who ask for all soloing in reality dont stay in MMOs long. They quick solo their way up in 2-3 months and skip to the next big thing. It has little value for both the company or the gamers to make a game too solo friendly.

4) Dont try to make a better WOW. Really, dont. EVERY other approach to make WOW 2 failed capital. Dont peek at those astronomic subscriber numbers of WOW, because thats the surest road NOT to reach them. Innovate, dont imitate. It just doesnt pay, there is ONE WOW, and there can be no 2nd. Its just that simple. Many games tried to make the WOW-recipe just better, but so far all of them failed. Have the courage to make your own thing, to stay true to the artistic style you invented with KOTOR and LISTEN to the experience of us SWG vets. We have a few years of experience with how a good Star Wars MMO can run and what capital mistakes to avoid. LISTEN to our experience! SOE didnt, and they paid the price for it. A wise person listens to the experience of others, even if you want to make a different approach, dont just brush us off.

Sure, you can say, we are expert Devs, we know better, go ahead. So many game Devs DIDNT listen to their player base, and if you take a look at your forum you will see where it burns! You will see a huge trend what people want. Ignore it at your own risk. We told you, and I say to you, you are about to take the wrong road, Bioware.

OP:
I doubt it. I don't see any way they would change their initial plan into something like that

Originally posted by Elikal

Ok, I am sorry it rings like doomsaying, but its now or never. That Lucasarts guy in the IGN interview said you (Bioware) and Lucasarts now want to listen more than in SWG.

Now here is what I have to say:

You are making a BIG mistake. Sorry to say, but if you follow down that road as I see it, you are going to screw BIG time. Yeah, I am leaning out of the window way long saying this, but its my firm believe.

1) Aiming for a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics and oversized weapons and stuff is a mistake. A FAR greater part of the SW fandom and of MMOs today are older guys. Its just a fact, the MMO genre changed. Many people today are rather dads and moms of kids instead of kids. I know you think to catch the kids, but sorry to say many of them dont care a crap about Star Wars. They play faster paced games, and MOSTLY: those kids by and large have ZERO patience for stories. IF those kids play MMOs, they want MMOs where they dont need to think, like WOW. Moral dilemmas, story-driven characters and ethical choices are just not what a vast, vast number of kids will ever want. The entire story-driven idea of lasting moral choices is asking for a much more mature audience, an audience which by and large asks for a much more realistic graphics. So essentially you mix two things which dont belong together: serious story and cartoony design.

This has been adressed. The overall stylized style will stay, the weapon size issue has been cleared up. One could think that this means that BioWare is actually listening to people on the Forum. I just hope they don't listen too closely.

2) Theme Park: Some Bioware guy said it in the recent Ten Ton Hammer interview and that word freaked the living hell out of me. One of the recently most criticized facts about Warhammer is the Theme Park design. In Warhammer I never felt like in a living, breathing world, but in a Disney Land Theme Park, hook nosed from event to event. Sure, it appeals some people, but it also creates a very sterile and confined experience, and in the long run such a game design can only loose. Why? Because NO one can make so many themes in a theme park as to entertain people such a long time. People need space to breath, to realize their OWN dreams and not be led through event tunnels with only left or right to chose in some conversation tree. I am all for stories which shape the character, but people NEED to have ordinary lives, only in that contrast the heroic things can stand out! If everything is a heroic story, NOTHING in the end matters anymore. People need an open world, they need to have choices and not an all guided theme park! They need the freedom to create their own lives, their own worlds, their own cities!

 

BioWare games have always been linear with choices along the way. It was very clear from the beginning that whatever MMO BioWare would make, it would NOT be a Sandbox. What I agree with is that you need to give people social tools. Because with social tools, creative people can do anything they want. Find a balance. I think BioWare can do that.

3) Dont make this game a soloing heaving. I never understood the drive to support the all-soloing thing. Why do people subscribe to MMOs, when they want to solo all the time? Now the problem is, once you allow all to be soloed, most people DO solo most of the time. You NEED to make obstacles only to be overcome by groups, by social organization, by working together, or people will not form groups. Its just reality, and the last thing Star Wars deserves is a story-soloing world, where everyone is alone in his story and the only thing people do together is a public chat channel. That would be no MMO! I hear a lot of things people can do alone, their lone stories, their solo experience, their companions to replace the REAL human players. I hear zero about working together, about forming teams. Wasnt that the thing to go to MMOs? Where is the "we" in all of this? People need social bonds to stay in a MMO, and social bonds are formed when a game demands it. Many people who ask for all soloing in reality dont stay in MMOs long. They quick solo their way up in 2-3 months and skip to the next big thing. It has little value for both the company or the gamers to make a game too solo friendly.

 

Blame humanity for that, not BioWare. Making a game completely group-based will literally kill it bfore it can take off. Just imagine coming into the game and having to realize you can't do squat because no one is there to help you with it, or everyone has just that moment taken off doing something else. The option to do things solo is a good thing. That people are unable to socialize anymore and ignore grouping as a result is not MMO's fault.

4) Dont try to make a better WOW. Really, dont. EVERY other approach to make WOW 2 failed capital. Dont peek at those astronomic subscriber numbers of WOW, because thats the surest road NOT to reach them. Innovate, dont imitate. It just doesnt pay, there is ONE WOW, and there can be no 2nd. Its just that simple. Many games tried to make the WOW-recipe just better, but so far all of them failed. Have the courage to make your own thing, to stay true to the artistic style you invented with KOTOR and LISTEN to the experience of us SWG vets. We have a few years of experience with how a good Star Wars MMO can run and what capital mistakes to avoid. LISTEN to our experience! SOE didnt, and they paid the price for it. A wise person listens to the experience of others, even if you want to make a different approach, dont just brush us off.

 

I really think the last thing BioWare should do is listen to a couple of players from a game long gone. I really hope they don't. Because all the SWG Vets want (on the TOR forums that is) is to have their old SWG back. They don't care for any plans or thoughts or concepts BioWare has, they just want to relive their glory days.

 

Those days are over. SW: TOR was never intended to be SWG v2.0. And it never will be. And I for one, am happy about it.

Sure, you can say, we are expert Devs, we know better, go ahead. So many game Devs DIDNT listen to their player base, and if you take a look at your forum you will see where it burns! You will see a huge trend what people want. Ignore it at your own risk. We told you, and I say to you, you are about to take the wrong road, Bioware.

 

Players from Pre-CU SWG are NOT the player base of SW: TOR. They are a very vocal minority and have always been since the first rumors of such a game have come to surface. They are the most bitter, and most demanding players I have ever seen on the forums and I pray that BioWare does not listen to them too much.

That being said, there are certainly people who have good suggestions and it seems BW is taking those suggestions seriously. My point remains however. The Pre-CU SWG "VET" crowd can only poison this game because they want something that BioWare simply was never aiming to make and they will cry for it regardless of consequences and without stopping to think something else might be a good idea.

Elikal,

This. Is. Never. Going. To. Happen.

TOR is NOT SWG reborn. Nor is it ever going to be SWG 2.0. Or a sandbox. Bioware's games have always felt like worlds, NWN, BG, and KOTOR being the definitive ones for myself. I understand and respect your point, but stop touting it as the only way for this game to suceed. The Star Wars IP alone almost guarantees this.

Now to address your individual points.

1. The current concept arts aren't cartoony at all. They have a wonderful stylization, and a nice (gasp) maturity to them. However, how they're currently realized in the PRE-ALPHA screens we've seen, they do need a lot of work. Give the artists some time to flesh out their vision - it looks like we'll be in for a pleasant surprise.

2. Yes it's a themepark - did you honestly expect to be a sandbox? Dispite whatever dilusions you might have, Bioware is, infact, a company that needs to post profits - especially after a multi-million dollar investment in an MMO. Sandboxes have proven, time and time again, that they are not capapable of generating the revenue flow that an AAA MMOs requires to be successful. There's a balance that must be struck between Game and World, I will agree with you there - and, imo, WoW captured that perfectly. Too much of one alienates the other, and leads to stagnation.

3. Soloing heavy? Where did you draw this conclusion from? I know there have been many interviews where the developers have stated that the game will have plenty of solo content, and why not? Forced grouping makes for (especially for those without a large friend base) very unfun gameplay. The option for soloing should always be there. No reason to alienate those who prefer to solo at times.

4. No. This is when your post disolves (sadly)  into mindless SWG2.0 toutage. No. Bioware should NOT listen to a bunch of angry fanbois of a dead game. This is just my opinion, but the rash of 'ideas' from the SWG fanbois needed to be stomped out. Bioware has had years of experience developing -fantastic- RPGs. Don't come here with your attitude of self-entitlement - it's annoying. We know this game isn't going to be SWG 2.0 (thank god) so don't post your non-sensical whinefests about a game that has been dead for 4 years now.

EDIT: Seems Singsofdeath has beaten me to most of these points, but I'm glad to see that someone else shares my opinion

Originally posted by singsofdeath

 

That being said, there are certainly people who have good suggestions and it seems BW is taking those suggestions seriously. My point remains however. The Pre-CU SWG "VET" crowd can only poison this game because they want something that BioWare simply was never aiming to make and they will cry for it regardless of consequences and without stopping to think something else might be a good idea.

  The irony is all those yelling don't make a WoW clone, make a SWG pre NGE/CU clone instead!     

 Preferably Bioware just won't listen to the whiners and will make their own game which will be a clone of neither           

Nice post Elikal.

I would hope this game is designed for the mature gaming crowd (which has plenty of disposable income) and not just to the 'masses'. I am not sure which they are going for though, too early to tell and I dont think Ive seen anything as a mission statement saying "we are after the mature gaming crowd'. MMOs are made for money first and foremost. If they have some egghead number cruncher telling them to aim for the WoW market, theyll tailor the game to do that. I wish it wasnt but its true I think.

If you read some of the posts already in this forum, youll see some of the unsavory creeping in to troll already that they want to kill PEOPLE, not mobs. They will grief you if they can in here. A lot of those as you say, have no idea what Star Wars is about. They werent even born yet and the only history they really know or want to know about, is the Sith and the Dark Side it seems.

I blame the lackluster Episode I and such for that. The coolest characters it seemed (aside from Yoda and Mace), was the Sith/ bad people. Darth Maul was brilliant. Gen Grievious, Jango Fett, Count Dooku even the Emperor all seem to be more interesting even when they had small roles. The 'good' side had,, Jar Jar Binks, no one wants to play Jar Jar Binks.

The Republic guys in the latter movies looked like the Order side in Warhammer.. just too weak and not interesting enough. These younger kids seem to identify with them and their personalities and as such, they want a more 'rougher' wide open Wild West game. I liken them to Anakin as he progressed through the films. Good at heart but..misguided.

Unless they put controls in this game to keep people in a more communitiy frame of mind, this will definitely turn into Wow Light. Final Fantasy is a excellent example of a game that was designed around team play and community and it reflects that. You find that the usual "Ill kill you all" types dont last longer than 1 month and the game has thrived well over the years. They have the opportunity to do that with this but I dont know how it will turn out.

They say WoW PvE was easy.. well I doubt too many actually experienced the final endgame content (esp on Burning Crusade). Im not talking about Kara and SSC, but clearing those last dungeons. Usually theres a few who come up with the plan, they tell people what to do.Those other people who dont actually make up the strat always say, "oh, that guy is easy. All you do is this/that". If they had to figure it out,, see how it easy would be.

Originally posted by popinjay

Nice post Elikal.

I would hope this game is designed for the mature gaming crowd (which has plenty of disposable income) and not just to the 'masses'. I am not sure which they are going for though, too early to tell and I dont think Ive seen anything as a mission statement saying "we are after the mature gaming crowd'. MMOs are made for money first and foremost. If they have some egghead number cruncher telling them to aim for the WoW market, theyll tailor the game to do that. I wish it wasnt but its true I think.

If you read some of the posts already in this forum, youll see some of the unsavory creeping in to troll already that they want to kill PEOPLE, not mobs. They will grief you if they can in here. A lot of those as you say, have no idea what Star Wars is about. They werent even born yet and the only history they really know or want to know about, is the Sith and the Dark Side it seems.

I blame the lackluster Episode I and such for that. The coolest characters it seemed (aside from Yoda and Mace), was the Sith/ bad people. Darth Maul was brilliant. Gen Grievious, Jango Fett, Count Dooku even the Emperor all seem to be more interesting even when they had small roles. The 'good' side had,, Jar Jar Binks, no one wants to play Jar Jar Binks.

The Republic guys in the latter movies looked like the Order side in Warhammer.. just too weak and not interesting enough. These younger kids seem to identify with them and their personalities and as such, they want a more 'rougher' wide open Wild West game. I liken them to Anakin as he progressed through the films. Good at heart but..misguided.

Unless they put controls in this game to keep people in a more communitiy frame of mind, this will definitely turn into Wow Light. Final Fantasy is a excellent example of a game that was designed around team play and community and it reflects that. You find that the usual "Ill kill you all" types dont last longer than 1 month and the game has thrived well over the years. They have the opportunity to do that with this but I dont know how it will turn out.

They say WoW PvE was easy.. well I doubt too many actually experienced the final endgame content (esp on Burning Crusade). Im not talking about Kara and SSC, but clearing those last dungeons. Usually theres a few who come up with the plan, they tell people what to do.Those other people who dont actually make up the strat always say, "oh, that guy is easy. All you do is this/that". If they had to figure it out,, see how it easy would be.

Good comment that with FF, its indeed cating soloist too much invites anti-social behavior.

Its sad to see more and more people come to a game with the attitude that they wanted everything presented to them on a golden plate with no risks, no need to coordinate, only spoon-fed left and right. It just is a much more rewarding experience if you have to put some work into things, but people seem to have little sense for working hard for accomplishments these days. Its not that I want the hardcore EQ1 days back, but in the riskless theme park world of WAR no accomplishment has the feeling of having something of value done. Those easy-mode catering games rise fast and are forgotten even faster.

The tragedy is, most people who call for easy-mode soloist heaven games rush soloing through those games, they dont care to build communities, level to max in 3 months and go on to the next big things. Its those other kind of old fashioned gamers who intend to stay for years, and those who would bring a stable income. The calculation to make too easy-pantsy games just does not pay off for anyone. Neither the companies because easy-mode gamers move on fast, nor for the gamers who are interested in gaming with depth and lasting value. A soloist theme park can NEVER keep people more than 2-3 months, no matter how many attractions a theme park has. Companies should listen to their core audience, not imaginary shores which may or may not be interested and the core audience just IS the former SWG audience, like it or not.

Originally posted by Elikal

Ok, I am sorry it rings like doomsaying, but its now or never. That Lucasarts guy in the IGN interview said you (Bioware) and Lucasarts now want to listen more than in SWG.

Now here is what I have to say:

You are making a BIG mistake. Sorry to say, but if you follow down that road as I see it, you are going to screw BIG time. Yeah, I am leaning out of the window way long saying this, but its my firm believe.

1) Aiming for a much younger audience with the cartoon graphics and oversized weapons and stuff is a mistake. A FAR greater part of the SW fandom and of MMOs today are older guys. Its just a fact, the MMO genre changed. Many people today are rather dads and moms of kids instead of kids. I know you think to catch the kids, but sorry to say many of them dont care a crap about Star Wars. They play faster paced games, and MOSTLY: those kids by and large have ZERO patience for stories. IF those kids play MMOs, they want MMOs where they dont need to think, like WOW. Moral dilemmas, story-driven characters and ethical choices are just not what a vast, vast number of kids will ever want. The entire story-driven idea of lasting moral choices is asking for a much more mature audience, an audience which by and large asks for a much more realistic graphics. So essentially you mix two things which dont belong together: serious story and cartoony design.

2) Theme Park: Some Bioware guy said it in the recent Ten Ton Hammer interview and that word freaked the living hell out of me. One of the recently most criticized facts about Warhammer is the Theme Park design. In Warhammer I never felt like in a living, breathing world, but in a Disney Land Theme Park, hook nosed from event to event. Sure, it appeals some people, but it also creates a very sterile and confined experience, and in the long run such a game design can only loose. Why? Because NO one can make so many themes in a theme park as to entertain people such a long time. People need space to breath, to realize their OWN dreams and not be led through event tunnels with only left or right to chose in some conversation tree. I am all for stories which shape the character, but people NEED to have ordinary lives, only in that contrast the heroic things can stand out! If everything is a heroic story, NOTHING in the end matters anymore. People need an open world, they need to have choices and not an all guided theme park! They need the freedom to create their own lives, their own worlds, their own cities!

3) Dont make this game a soloing heaving. I never understood the drive to support the all-soloing thing. Why do people subscribe to MMOs, when they want to solo all the time? Now the problem is, once you allow all to be soloed, most people DO solo most of the time. You NEED to make obstacles only to be overcome by groups, by social organization, by working together, or people will not form groups. Its just reality, and the last thing Star Wars deserves is a story-soloing world, where everyone is alone in his story and the only thing people do together is a public chat channel. That would be no MMO! I hear a lot of things people can do alone, their lone stories, their solo experience, their companions to replace the REAL human players. I hear zero about working together, about forming teams. Wasnt that the thing to go to MMOs? Where is the "we" in all of this? People need social bonds to stay in a MMO, and social bonds are formed when a game demands it. Many people who ask for all soloing in reality dont stay in MMOs long. They quick solo their way up in 2-3 months and skip to the next big thing. It has little value for both the company or the gamers to make a game too solo friendly.

4) Dont try to make a better WOW. Really, dont. EVERY other approach to make WOW 2 failed capital. Dont peek at those astronomic subscriber numbers of WOW, because thats the surest road NOT to reach them. Innovate, dont imitate. It just doesnt pay, there is ONE WOW, and there can be no 2nd. Its just that simple. Many games tried to make the WOW-recipe just better, but so far all of them failed. Have the courage to make your own thing, to stay true to the artistic style you invented with KOTOR and LISTEN to the experience of us SWG vets. We have a few years of experience with how a good Star Wars MMO can run and what capital mistakes to avoid. LISTEN to our experience! SOE didnt, and they paid the price for it. A wise person listens to the experience of others, even if you want to make a different approach, dont just brush us off.

Sure, you can say, we are expert Devs, we know better, go ahead. So many game Devs DIDNT listen to their player base, and if you take a look at your forum you will see where it burns! You will see a huge trend what people want. Ignore it at your own risk. We told you, and I say to you, you are about to take the wrong road, Bioware.

1) This game is not being made for an older crowd only.  Most MMO's are trying to be inclusive in their player base and allow people from all age ranges to play.  It increases their profitability.  This game is no exception.

2) I don't like the idea of a theme park MMO any more than most but the idea of a sandbox SW game is over.  Warhammer was fun for a while but I am finding that I grow weary of the same ol' Orc and Dwarf smash and bang MMO's.  If you put Warhammer with SW cannon and story and I would most likely be hooked for years to come.  I don't care if the game is sandbox or not, even though I'm an SWG vet from launch.  I just want the story to be fun and worth the time to follow, rather than ignoring quest text because it's the same stupid crap.  Also, if they make character development and skills that work and allow for very different set ups between the same classes I will be happy.  But everyone having the same skills and the same templates is going to suck.  Also, make crafting fun and important.  Too many MMO's miss out on this part of their game because they think it isn't important.  This is one thing that SWG did very well.

3)  I don't mind solo leveling games because most of the time I don't want to dick around with being required to group in order to level.  However, I do think end game content and pvp should all be group focused with little to no solo play.  I used to love doing instances when I played WoW with friends/guild and I definitely liked the group pvp play of Warhammer.  Again, what is more inclusive?  A game that requires groups to effectively level or a game that allows you to do both?

4)  It is my hope that Bioware will recognize what Blizzard has done well and feel free to steal from their game liberally.  I agree that their goal should not be to "dethrone WoW" but I do hope that they use some of the things that make WoW a good game. 

*Disclaimer*  Please remember that this game is probably 2+ years from actual release.  We're all guessing at things.  It is way too damn early to say that Bioware is failing at anything.  For all we know they could be making the greatest MMO ever conceived and yet we're bringing our preconceived notions and biases into a discussion about a game that isn't even in alpha testing.   At this point anything and everythign can be changed and re-developed.  The time to really be worried about the game is if it sucks in beta.  At that point it may be worth arguing about, for now sit back and let your mind wonder at the possiblities.

Originally posted by Elikal

4) Dont try to make a better WOW. Really, dont. EVERY other approach to make WOW 2 failed capital. Dont peek at those astronomic subscriber numbers of WOW, because thats the surest road NOT to reach them. Innovate, dont imitate. It just doesnt pay, there is ONE WOW, and there can be no 2nd. Its just that simple. Many games tried to make the WOW-recipe just better, but so far all of them failed.

Totally, totally agree with this part,a nd that is what brings the down fall of so many post WoW games...

The other issue is the so call "end-game" content, on 1 hand you can't have force grouping but on the other hand not too solo friendly.... headache...

ps: its not going to be sand-box, so i believe it will have end-game...

Even sandboxes have an endgame.  What happens when your skills are maxed out?  Do you continue to go and kill the same things over and over again?  Do you PvP over certain areas?  Do you sit around farming resources and crafting all day even though your crafting skill is maxed out?  In the end it all comes down to do something over and over again because the content and story runs out.  Short of having everything in the game recede over time or having some kind of character ageing there is no way to keep the game fresh.  You would have to have skills lower over time with lack of use.  You would have to have items in the game decay over and eventually become destroyed over time.  You would need some kind of ageing system so that even characters have to start over at some point when they grow old a die.  You need some way to constantly refresh everything and keep things interesting for the player for a long period of time.

Generally I don't play MMOs as something long term anymore.  I usually will play until I'm not having fun anymore and then quit like a single player game.  Thats why I'm OK with a Bioware Star Wars TOR game.  I like the games they have made in the past.  I'm sure one day someone will make a really good simulation of different worlds fantasy or reality.  Bioware is not the one to do it though.  Most people should have known that already.

I think it's hilarious when someone calls the SWG vets the "vocal minority" and say that the opinions of the SWG vets are of no concern.  Why don't you go ask Smedley or LucasArts if they want to piss off any more SWG vets...

Originally posted by Thunderous

I think it's hilarious when someone calls the SWG vets the "vocal minority" and say that the opinions of the SWG vets are of no concern.  Why don't you go ask Smedley or LucasArts if they want to piss off any more SWG vets...

And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.

I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.

What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.

You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.

I agree with this post, I just don't understand one point. Bioware made extremly linear games since planescape torment. KOTOR was an interactive movie and NWN an action hack and slash. Where from comes your optimism that they would ever think about doing a non-linear free sandbox MMO?

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by Thunderous

I think it's hilarious when someone calls the SWG vets the "vocal minority" and say that the opinions of the SWG vets are of no concern.  Why don't you go ask Smedley or LucasArts if they want to piss off any more SWG vets...

 

And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.

 

I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.

 

What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.

 

You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.

I understand your frustration with how people might criticize the perceived direction of this game but lumping people into groups is usually a bad idea.  I am a former SWG Vet and there are  things that I am dying to see implemented in TOR.  Am I going to be quiet about that because it might rub someone the wrong way?  Nope.  I'm not looking for SWG2 either though.  I am hoping that LA actually learns from their mistakes and puts something together that is better than SWG was.  It is on this point that I will continue to harp because I don't really believe that they have learned anything from SWG.  This is why many of your SWG vets are *itching and moaning for certain things to be in TOR.  They desperately want a good SW game to enjoy, and they also know that LA had as much to do with the failure of SWG as did SOE. 

Originally posted by Airwren

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by Thunderous

I think it's hilarious when someone calls the SWG vets the "vocal minority" and say that the opinions of the SWG vets are of no concern.  Why don't you go ask Smedley or LucasArts if they want to piss off any more SWG vets...

 

And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.

 

I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.

 

What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.

 

You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.

 

I understand your frustration with how people might criticize the perceived direction of this game but lumping people into groups is usually a bad idea.  I am a former SWG Vet and there are  things that I am dying to see implemented in TOR.  Am I going to be quiet about that because it might rub someone the wrong way?  Nope.  I'm not looking for SWG2 either though.  I am hoping that LA actually learns from their mistakes and puts something together that is better than SWG was.  It is on this point that I will continue to harp because I don't really believe that they have learned anything from SWG.  This is why many of your SWG vets are *itching and moaning for certain things to be in TOR.  They desperately want a good SW game to enjoy, and they also know that LA had as much to do with the failure of SWG as did SOE. 

See, this is my point. You do not simply shout and rant at BioWare to make the game into SWG 2.0. Giving constructive feedback and opinions on things that would be good if implementend is great!

Especially in the beginning stages, a lot can still be changed if the community presents it well.

As I said, what i dislike is a certain group of people who demand SWG 2.0 and who are flat-out rude to anyone who thinks otherwise, nevermind that they don#t even consider that other options might work well, too.

I'm not lumping people together, if I did, or gave the impression, I apologize. I am referring to the people I described above. I realize that not all SWg -Vets are acting like that. But...there are quite a few who do.

yes Lucas Arts want SWG vets money but they want their kids playing the game

I don't think Bioware is able to create a successful MMO though not exactly for the reasons Elikal listed.

Imo Bioware is all about "content" which is great for single-player games. MMOs primarily need to provide a social framework that would foster the creation of user-generated "content" - even if only on the level of PvP or  "my purplaz are bigger than yourz". In short - interaction between players, a living world regardless whether it's classical sandbox or not, is the key. Lore is very important, don't get me wrong, as the background for everything the players do but pre-generated scripted content is anti-mmo, almost by definition.

Just remember DDO... great game, great combat, great content and.... what? It would work much better as a single player game because that's just what it is - a single player game where you're forced to play with some other people to be able to access the content. If it were single-player you wouldn't be forced to rely on strangers for that. See? The problem is where the focus lies - if it is with pre-generated content then other players are only in the way and the game would be better off as a single player.

Bioware is too enamored on their "stories" to let mere players toy with those. I imagine this SWTOR thing will be a single-player campaign with a "young hero out to save the universe" story and no real persistent social environment component to it. Oh it is going to be great, no doubt about it, but I wouldn't bet on it holding people for prolonged periods of time.

I might be wrong though and stranger things have been know to happen. We'll see.

/add

and just a pet peeve from me: It is really funny how people hit WAR on being "tunneled" and on the other hand not ever trying to actually take advantage of the freedom that game offers. Really funny indeed.... Maybe those "evil" devs are right - you shouldn't give too much freedom to the masses because they wouldn't know what to do with it.. even if they managed to recognize it as such. Love those scenario grinders who keep complaining about being forced to play scenarios while never actually trying to form a group for open RvR or join a guild. Freedom does require a responsibility for your actions as well as some volition and initiative - a message that's been obviously loosing potency in this age.

Maybe Bioware really is better off with their "story" about a "hero about to save the universe". Give those scrubs an illusion of grandeur for 15$ a month. It's pretty amazing what some purple pixels might do to your ego buttons... Cheap and effective. That seems a good deal for both sides of the bargain. Rant off.

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by Airwren

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by Thunderous

I think it's hilarious when someone calls the SWG vets the "vocal minority" and say that the opinions of the SWG vets are of no concern.  Why don't you go ask Smedley or LucasArts if they want to piss off any more SWG vets...

 

And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.

 

I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.

 

What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.

 

You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.

 

I understand your frustration with how people might criticize the perceived direction of this game but lumping people into groups is usually a bad idea.  I am a former SWG Vet and there are  things that I am dying to see implemented in TOR.  Am I going to be quiet about that because it might rub someone the wrong way?  Nope.  I'm not looking for SWG2 either though.  I am hoping that LA actually learns from their mistakes and puts something together that is better than SWG was.  It is on this point that I will continue to harp because I don't really believe that they have learned anything from SWG.  This is why many of your SWG vets are *itching and moaning for certain things to be in TOR.  They desperately want a good SW game to enjoy, and they also know that LA had as much to do with the failure of SWG as did SOE. 

 

See, this is my point. You do not simply shout and rant at BioWare to make the game into SWG 2.0. Giving constructive feedback and opinions on things that would be good if implementend is great!

 

Especially in the beginning stages, a lot can still be changed if the community presents it well.

 

As I said, what i dislike is a certain group of people who demand SWG 2.0 and who are flat-out rude to anyone who thinks otherwise, nevermind that they don#t even consider that other options might work well, too.

 

I'm not lumping people together, if I did, or gave the impression, I apologize. I am referring to the people I described above. I realize that not all SWg -Vets are acting like that. But...there are quite a few who do.

I give you mad kudos for clarifying your point and I would be in total agreement with what you just said.  There's no point in being rude or demanding of the developers to do thus and so.  There are things I'm passionate to see implemented in the game but that doesn't make my ideas better than anyone else's.  /salute singsofdeath 

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by Airwren

Originally posted by singsofdeath

Originally posted by Thunderous

I think it's hilarious when someone calls the SWG vets the "vocal minority" and say that the opinions of the SWG vets are of no concern.  Why don't you go ask Smedley or LucasArts if they want to piss off any more SWG vets...

 

And I think it's hilarious that a group of players believe that everything in a new game, that has no ties to SWG of any sort except the brand-name, should be done in a way -THEY- think is right.

 

I have no problem with people, SWG-Vets or otherwise making constructive posts about things they believe should be in the game or criticise things they believe should not be there.

 

What I have a problem with, is the crowd of self-styled, overzealous SWG-Vets who openly claim they know better than anyone else how to make a good game and would love nothing more than to dictate to BioWare what the new game should be like under the premission that they are the experts on the subject and thus know more than anyone working at BioWare how a game can succeed.

 

You got screwed over by SOE, I understand how frustrating that is, but don't take your frustration out on a game that has nothing to do with SWG and never claimed to have anything to do with it.

 

I understand your frustration with how people might criticize the perceived direction of this game but lumping people into groups is usually a bad idea.  I am a former SWG Vet and there are  things that I am dying to see implemented in TOR.  Am I going to be quiet about that because it might rub someone the wrong way?  Nope.  I'm not looking for SWG2 either though.  I am hoping that LA actually learns from their mistakes and puts something together that is better than SWG was.  It is on this point that I will continue to harp because I don't really believe that they have learned anything from SWG.  This is why many of your SWG vets are *itching and moaning for certain things to be in TOR.  They desperately want a good SW game to enjoy, and they also know that LA had as much to do with the failure of SWG as did SOE. 

 

See, this is my point. You do not simply shout and rant at BioWare to make the game into SWG 2.0. Giving constructive feedback and opinions on things that would be good if implementend is great!

 

Especially in the beginning stages, a lot can still be changed if the community presents it well.

 

As I said, what i dislike is a certain group of people who demand SWG 2.0 and who are flat-out rude to anyone who thinks otherwise, nevermind that they don#t even consider that other options might work well, too.

 

I'm not lumping people together, if I did, or gave the impression, I apologize. I am referring to the people I described above. I realize that not all SWg -Vets are acting like that. But...there are quite a few who do.

No one here said he wanted SWG 2.0, so I dunno where you make the of. You point and gamer who have experiences and wishes. Having a problem with critique?

I think quite a few of the SWG Vets are going to become very disenheartened as this game evolves; it won't be even close to what they are looking for, but that's what happens when you try and shoehorn your expectations into something that will never meet them.

I don't mind Bioware as a game company, but I find that their games have limited appeal to me. I'm starting out with the same expectations with this game. I may find it amusing for the first 30 days, but after that it will be time to move onto something else.