Personally, I really respect Bioware as one of THE ONLY videogame companies that continuously makes amazing games. KOTOR, Mass Effect, Jade Empire, ETC... I really trust them to make an awesome game out of this.

Originally posted by Terranah

Originally posted by WRyan

Originally posted by Daedalus732

As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask:

"Should we really consider this game an MMO?"

I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day:

"Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash"

When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? 

I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many.

As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. 

I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.

 

No offense, because you are entitled to your opinion on the matter... but it seems to me that you're being a little too biased on this game.

It's true, they spoke nothing about the game except the thing that no other MMO has - story... more specific personal character story development.  This single thing alone is truely revolutionary.  The mere fact that they are even attempting this is quite honestly, unbelievable.  No other MMO on the market, past or present, has even attempted this on such a personal level.

Most MMO's have some sort of overarching story that motivates and facilitates the need for some sort of conflict between factioned players.  And that's pretty much where it stopped in all MMO's.  Everyone did the same quests, with the same outcome for every quest.  Some quests were factionally alligned, thereby excluding players of other factions from participating.  The bulk of the quests never have anything to do with any other part of the game.

If you can't appreciate a complete 180 in quest design alone, then I'm sorry to say, that maybe you aren't ready for a new MMO at all.  Quests, no matter what the game offers otherwise, is the content of the game.  It's what you build your character from.  I would think everyone would be happy about this.  It's a no brainer.

As for PvP type things... They didn't speak hardly any about it, but they did acknowledge it's importance.  You have two factions - the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic.  They're in a Cold War.  They basically spelled it out in a way that would suggest that this is fundamentally what you need for awesome PvP between two factions.  What this means to me is, that there is no huge major battle, but more like smaller skirmishes that are kept secret or private.  I don't know about you guys, but that has GvsG PvP written all over it.

I don't think this will be another Guildwars.  It would be easy to suggest that... but I have a feeling that Bioware, Lucasarts, and EA coming together to make anything but a truely next-gen MMO attempt on all levels, is a little absurd and quite ignorant to fathom.  I don't think it will offer every feature SWG offered, but I think that a lot of the stuff SWG featured didn't work in the first place, and will probably be replaced with other things.

I'm not blinded by fanboism on this either.  I am just optimistic about things so far, until they start talking more about it in detail.  We still have a long ways to go before it's going to be even Beta ready.  My money is on a May 2011 release.

 

This is not a no brainer.  This is how YOU play the game.  Others buld their characters based on adventures they have had, friendships they have forged, and enemies they have created. You see, in story driven mmo's you don't have the depth of experience, or to paraphrase the OP, you are told a story instead of telling your own story.

 

My greatest mmo moments were not completeing quests.  For instance, I used to roleplay a Storm Trooper and I had several player made towns on my assigned patrol route.  Some of those towns were Rebel controlled and I was convinced their bases were being used to horde contraband.  So every other morning I would head over and attack their base.  Any citizens that tried to stop me were obviously rebel sympathizers, so they were killed.  Eventually one morning the town lay in wait in the surrounding hills while I made my patrol, and ambushed me.  They blew up my speeder and chased me into the Dantooine wilderness.  Somehow I made it to the Imperial base and a huge battle ensued. 

 

One of the most memorable moments of that day was when one of the really nasty rebs ignored all the chaos around us and zeroed in on me.  We fought and fought and each one of us almost died several times.  Finally, as my health was fading away I dashed outside the outpost and I saw an ATST parked outside, so I made a break for it.  The reb seemed to stop and think about it for a moment, but my health was almost gone and the temptation was too great, and he charged at me.  Suddently the atst jerked to life and blasted him to pieces.  I wept tears of joy, but those tears were made all the sweeter when a reb drove up on his speeder a short distance away and asked what the hell was going on.  Fair is fair eh...I smashed his speeder to bits and some Imperial brothers chased him into the wilderness.  A few moments later, as the fight was dying down, those Imperials wandered back into the outpost laughing how they chased the reb down and executed him. 

 

Nothing about that experience was scripted.  But it is just ONE memory that stays with me years later.  I have so many more memories just like it.  Can the vets be faulted for wanting to return to that type of immersion?  So much went in to creating that experience...the players choosing factions, building a town, me working to get all the Storm Trooper armor pieces, the weapon that was crafted for me, the materials that were mined to make the weapon, the combat/defense bonuses that I scoured the galaxy to acquire, the base the rebels made to defend their town, the fact that everyone wasn't running around doing quests by themselves so they could participate in this impromptu battle, etc.

 

You either get it or you don't.  I'm a Precu SWG vet.  I don't feel appologetic for that one bit either, because as flawed as the game was it was the best damn gaming experience I ever had, and am ever likely to have.

Hmmm... this is a great story.  I should say... this is a great PvP story.  I should also say, that this is a great PvP story that, aside from some terminology.... has happened a lot of times in a lot of other MMOs.

"I was ambushed, so I ran away.  Some friends backed me up.  Me and this other guy started to focus on one another and fought forever.  I ran to some friendly mob, and it killed him.  Some other noob showed up, so I ruined his shit too.  But he got away, and I didn't feel like another fight..... so my friends I ran into earlier chased him down."

Yeah... I've never heard THIS one before.  This same thing happened to me a lot in SWG.  But... none of that has anything to do with what I was talking about.

What Professions did you play?  I mean, what was your Template exactly?  Actually, nevermind, because that doesn't matter.  What matters is how you got that template.  Let me guess... grinding?

AH!  Now it makes more sense why quests are the content of the game that you build your character from.  It makes sense because SWG didn't have any of that.  Well it did... but what we called it was... the grind.  And that's all.  A boring, long, day after day grind on the same two planets - Dathomir and Dantooine.

So anyway... I'm a vet as well.  I remember how great SWG was, even with all of its faults.  I loved the drama that it allowed people to create.  But in reality - that same drama happens in any game that has PvP.  And that's all it was... normal PvP affair.  PvP does not make a complete game, and SWG proved this - and so now have you.

I would lastly like to reitterate what i actually said.  Quests are the content that you build your character from - meaning, you gain levels and experience from them.  How can you not want that to be better than what SWG offered (the grind) and what WoW offered (meaningless quests that you find in every other MMO before and after it... besides SWG... which actually it did have meaningless quests, but were exceptionally bad, hence we called it the grind)?

Unless some information comes out that totally blows me away or they release graphics that do the game justice I will be passing...

Played SWG from first week (on Bloodfin) launched and quit at NGE... like the majority!

We will have to wait and see but so far I am unimpressed...

 I think I cant wait to play another Star Wars mmo that probably wont suck like SWG!!!

Honestly... I'm disappointed its not a sandbox, but at the other end of things, its a new MMO.

The people still bitching for the pre-NGE experience need to realize that this is a whole new MMO and it should be given a fair try for what it is, not some game trying to be the old SWG.

I haved learned that in my opinion how you play a MMO is solely up to your perception. Meaning a game could tout itself as a Pure sanbox game and on the other hand one game could say its linear and quest driven but you the player truely decide how its played. No one in any game is forcing you to go out and level. You do it for your own advancement as a character. Same in a skill based game there are still restrictions they are just not as open and out ther as a linear game. In SWG you still had places you could not go to if you were not skilled enough and you still had fights you were bound to loose. In other words if your a fan of Star Wars you can still roleplay a character you like. Just because the game mechanics are not in place for you to go be a moister farmer, does not mean you lack the ability to "Be one". Just my opinion on it though as you all know I am quite the radical thinker .

Originally posted by Daedalus732

As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask:

"Should we really consider this game an MMO?"

I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day:

"Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash"

When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? 

I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many.

As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. 

I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.

well as far as the single player thing, there is an interview that can be seen here http://www.massively.com/2008/10/23/swtor-overview-part-2/  where a dev is talking about instances and mentions something about it.

here is the quote:

Rich: Yes, there is going to be a form of instancing. That's very important to a lot of different things – being able to do storytelling, being able to do experiences that aren't disrupted in public areas ... they are a part of our game. We do have both though, and we want to make sure you don't feel like you are in a single-player game.

There are also a couple of interviews (which I am too lazy to go find right now) where the devs talk about how pvp will be introduced to players very early on in their character developement and how there will definately be crafting.

Now to what extent any of this will be implemented I have no idea.  I dont think anyone here does at this point.  They could do it all in an amazing way or they could completely botch the entire thing.   Time will tell, and we'll be watching.

You are right, I am not getting overhyped on this one because I know. I know that this game isn't going to be the best. People are going to get overhyped and then dissappointed as I have on Warhammer Online. Age of Conan was a dissapointment. But I won't quit Warhammer, I'm giving it another few months. Tabula Rasa was a GREAT game with no end game. So, I will give Star Wars: The Old Republic a try and if I don't like it, I will stick with it for a few months. And also, I will not be dissapointed because I won't expect as much. So, let's see what BioWare can do, if they live up to the hype, yay, if they don't we move on. As Age of Conan, Warhammer, there's now Star Wars: TOR and Aion ONline, there will always be something too look foward to.

Originally posted by Daedalus732

As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask:

"Should we really consider this game an MMO?"

I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day:

"Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash"

When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? 

I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many.

As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. 

I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.

SWG and the one developed by Bioware are 2 different games. Comparing them (Or claiming how your pre-NGE experience would mean you know what you're talking about) is wrong.

The KOTOR series (And other games obviously) are notorious for their deep storyline. I expect no less from their MMO. I guess we disagree on that matter. I'd like to see less "Look at all teh phat lewtz I gots!!11", and more involvement into a game world (Storyline-wise).

Frankly, your post indicates its all about you. Being an SWG Vet (like myself) has nothing to do with Bioware's MMO (Other than the setting). You're already claiming it to be a cookie-cutter as well. Your opinion is made up way too soon. Ah well.

Originally posted by Daedalus732

As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask:

"Should we really consider this game an MMO?"

As someone who went from Pre-CU till 2 month after NGE hit, I am somewhat disappointed about the direction (not a sandbox, skill-tree based game).  But I am more excited because I also like to have a great story to play in (many people feel that you don't need a great background story for MMO, I beg to differ...)  

About instances, read up more on the articles on the net for more info (don't want to keep linking what has already been mentioned in other threads).  As MMO goes, yes, it is their vision of what they want to make their MMO.

I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day:

"Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash"

Not really, Bioware design their RPG with the idea of what they called "four pillars: Combat, Exploration, Progression, and Story", and since MMO"RPG" is a form of RPG, they believe that the "Story" part has been left out from so many MMOs that it is one of the area lacking.  They wish to do something about it in their MMO design. 

I may not have the same idea in the design, but I can respect that due to their dedication to their product, it should be interesting to see how well the end-result will be.

And ultimately, YES, they are doing it for the money (like EVERY DOG-GONE game companies around.)

When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? 

They mentioned PvP and RvR in different interview and articles already, also Raids (if you count that "guild contents".)  As for player cities, crafting, classes, etc... many of these info they are still slow to release information on it. 

 

I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many.

About not playing KOTOR, it's your person choice, I have nothing to say about it, other than you miss playing a great game.  Personally I like to play RPG games just because I want to see HOW they tell their stories through the mechanics and use of different systems.  And Bioware is known for their story-telling, hence making SW:TOR seems like a MMO with some unique systems. 

There is a possibility that they may let many gamers down, or that they may succeed in the MMO market, I have no idea.  So I can only wait.

About your feeling of time put into single player RPG character means nothing.  The same thing can be said of MMORPG characters.  Once you stop paying $$$, your character means nothing also.  So the time you spend - gone, the money you spend - gone.  If that's the case, why play games like these?

As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. 

And as a SWG vet, even though Bioware is not making a Star Wars game with something similar to SWG Pre-CU system, I don't blame them for it.  Because their strong point is story-telling.  I don't mind a great story to get me into the mood of role-playing or just the immersion for the game.  So I welcome the idea of such design (even though I may not agree with the direction).  To call it a "cookie cutter hand holding" isn't fair for Bioware because you haven't even seen the game yet.  If later on they are making it too much of the "cookie cutter MMO", sure, your statement may mean something.

I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.

I'm different in this:  I like someone tell me a grand story, and I want even more to MAKE my story to link up and matters in that grand story.  That in my opinion, is the best experience.

Originally posted by Forcan

Originally posted by Daedalus732

As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask:

"Should we really consider this game an MMO?"

As someone who went from Pre-CU till 2 month after NGE hit, I am somewhat disappointed about the direction (not a sandbox, skill-tree based game).  But I am more excited because I also like to have a great story to play in (many people feel that you don't need a great background story for MMO, I beg to differ...)  

About instances, read up more on the articles on the net for more info (don't want to keep linking what has already been mentioned in other threads).  As MMO goes, yes, it is their vision of what they want to make their MMO.

I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day:

"Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash"

Not really, Bioware design their RPG with the idea of what they called "four pillars: Combat, Exploration, Progression, and Story", and since MMO"RPG" is a form of RPG, they believe that the "Story" part has been left out from so many MMOs that it is one of the area lacking.  They wish to do something about it in their MMO design. 

I may not have the same idea in the design, but I can respect that due to their dedication to their product, it should be interesting to see how well the end-result will be.

And ultimately, YES, they are doing it for the money (like EVERY DOG-GONE game companies around.)

When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? 

They mentioned PvP and RvR in different interview and articles already, also Raids (if you count that "guild contents".)  As for player cities, crafting, classes, etc... many of these info they are still slow to release information on it. 

 

I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many.

About not playing KOTOR, it's your person choice, I have nothing to say about it, other than you miss playing a great game.  Personally I like to play RPG games just because I want to see HOW they tell their stories through the mechanics and use of different systems.  And Bioware is known for their story-telling, hence making SW:TOR seems like a MMO with some unique systems. 

There is a possibility that they may let many gamers down, or that they may succeed in the MMO market, I have no idea.  So I can only wait.

About your feeling of time put into single player RPG character means nothing.  The same thing can be said of MMORPG characters.  Once you stop paying $$$, your character means nothing also.  So the time you spend - gone, the money you spend - gone.  If that's the case, why play games like these?

As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. 

And as a SWG vet, even though Bioware is not making a Star Wars game with something similar to SWG Pre-CU system, I don't blame them for it.  Because their strong point is story-telling.  I don't mind a great story to get me into the mood of role-playing or just the immersion for the game.  So I welcome the idea of such design (even though I may not agree with the direction).  To call it a "cookie cutter hand holding" isn't fair for Bioware because you haven't even seen the game yet.  If later on they are making it too much of the "cookie cutter MMO", sure, your statement may mean something.

I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.

I'm different in this:  I like someone tell me a grand story, and I want even more to MAKE my story to link up and matters in that grand story.  That in my opinion, is the best experience.

 

 That was well said. I enjoy the story plot that an RPG brings. But that is something that seems to have left the MMO market.

               Final Fantasy XI was a great story game. Unfortunately the grind was absolutely ridiculous. But in the end it was a fun game to play.

               Now if Bioware can make a great story & tie that into a great PVP/RVR.... I would have to say that I would be very interested in the end result.

I will be watching developers forums intensly.

I played SWG for quite a while and was fortunate enough to be in beta for a year or so.  I left before JTL hit because of the holocron/jedi grind.

I really think old SWG vet's vision is skewed when we look back at the game.  Call it a sandbox, call it whatever. Instead of getting quests from an NPC, you got missions from a kiosk. The skill based system seemed awesome and different but it was just a leveling mechanism in disguise.  Everyone just played the same 'class' and everyone had access to the same skill trees.  You grind, you quest/mission, you kill and get experience. You put points in your little skill boxes and go to the next box. How is this really any different than leveling up, and putting points in a skill tree? You had your little 'theme park' areas: Jabba's Palace, Emporer's Retreat, etc.  And you had places people sat and camped mobs.

The amount of skills available WAS extremely impressive (even though many <cough>squad leader</cough> never did function correctly).  The creature taming was incredibly fun and the crafting was unmatched (Horizons doesn't even come close).   The user created cities and the politics that went with them were nice.  But at this point we don't know anything about most of TOR's features.  We just have a pretty small FAQ and a few screen prints.

In my way of looking at it, all of these games offer equal opportunity to do whatever you want to do.  You just have to do it.  I am eagerly awaiting this game.  I loved the KOTOR and most of Bioware's titles. I do think it will have a much different feeling than old SWG and I feel bad for those who want nothing more than to get that feeling back.   I like the graphics direction and hope to see it polished up a bit. 

"As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one."

That's a shame...

Originally posted by Daedalus732

As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask:

"Should we really consider this game an MMO?"

I'm pretty cynical anymore when it comes to MMOs, particularly since I seem to be one of the few people who can recognize the rehashing of the same concept with a different skin that has repeatedly dogged the MMO experience for me. So it looks to me like Bioware is just trying to cash in on the whole MMORPG market using their previous successes as a foundation. It's like someone suggested one day:

"Lets make our next KOTOR game an MMORPG so we have a continuous flow of cash"

When I look at SWTOR's website, I see no mention of guild content, PVP, player cities, or anything that should drive people to play an MMO. Why, after all, should someone pay a monthly fee to play what is basically a single player game? 

I must confess that I didn't like any of the KOTOR games because to me, the time spent on developing a character and taking them through the game world amounted to nothing because all the time you put into the character ultimately meant nothing. The advent of the MMO allows people to continuously develop their character, and lets be honest, show off our achievements. Most important is the comradery and competition between guilds. How many stories and experiences do we best recall from our MMOs that stem only from single player content? Probably not too many.

As an SWG vet, I'm not going to hold my breath on this one. I'm done with the cookie cutter hand holding that companies are using to attract their market. 

I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.

Yay! good shot!

Originally posted by Daedalus732

As someone who played SWG until the NGE, I'm deeply dissapointed, though not surprised by any means, by the direction Bioware seems to be taking this game. To me, it looks like a single player MMO with a few instances that will require grouping with other people. Thus I have to ask:

I don't want someone to tell me a story, I want to tell other people MY story.

What is wrong with that? It would be good entertainment. I don't want to entertain other people, i want to be entertained.

And bioware is going in the RIGHT direction. It is an innovation (a story-centric MMO) which is never been done before. 

Sure, you don't like it .. but i predict many will. In fact, just look at how popular bioware's games are. I think KOTOR, Jade Empire & Mass Effects are some of the BEST RPG. Sure, this new game may not fit the traditional MMO mold, but if it is a good game, who cares?