At this point I'm more interested in SWGemu being finished. I'd rather play single player games than MMOs where everyone is a l33t hero.

Originally posted by Fishermage

 

Wow, seems everyone isn't reading my post, and merely reading what they want to read in it :) Interesting.

What is, for anyone that become engaged in an "argument" with you, something you do often, even more when it suits whatever you are defending. It is a valid strategy of argumentation tho.

Any way, did not surprised me - the informations about bioware's new mmorpg. It is not a koster game. In terms of concept and vision koster (Still) rules supreme.  More, a sandbox game, at least a complex one, like SWG was,  is a form of art.costly one. From the intial concept  to the coding.

It was faily obvious that a company known to make (good) story driven rpg's  would continue to follow the narrative path. And it is hard to combine a pure sandbox envinronment with a story driven game. Was going to write "it is impossible to combine ", but, after thinking a bit, I see it is not impossible, just rather hard.

And risky, in the sense that when you envision a story driven game, the objective is to make the story the "axis mundi", the center of gravity, pulling everything . the story becomes the fundamental. And the prime content.  yet, on a real sandbox type of game, the freedom given to the player implies that there can't be such primal axis. In the sanbox game the player makes the story, and the game world becomes what the player sees or wants to see. In such a setting the story could be completly disregarded.

And in a setting where the game and the story are wrapped to each other, opening the door to disregard the narrative would only end in increasing frustration for the player. Even if not apparent, since there would never be complet freedom .

I don't really recall any strong story driven mmorpg (at least in a comparable way to what I envision the old republic game). it will be interesting to see and experiment such thing. The fact  goes against the complaints i see about some "WOWmenigation". But yes it will be somewhat linear.

And yes, for the lovers of SWg in the pure state probably not very satisfying. SWG allowed every player to  be the second or third line hero or anti-hero, that none ever sees in the movies, but that is there. Or the average guy that tries to live in the turbulent galactic civil war. In a nutshell for the player to be what he would like to be and pay attention to what he wanted to pay attention to.     to play the game by his own rules and values.

The old republic would be much more linear. In a way th eplayer will be inside a book. Hopefully he will be able to "lose himself" inside the book, but he will never be able to go beyond the boundaries set to that particular book. 

edit: oh and to answer someone's question, if I had to make a mmorpg, that I wanted to be popular and get as much subs as possible, hell no, I would not make a pure sandbox mmorpg. That would be castrating the potential market. Not only sandbox lovers are a minority in the current MMORG market, but, also, the truth is a sanbox lover might fall in love with a non sandbox game but  those that don't really find much appeal into building their path in a virtual world without references as classes, items, specs and levels, and such kind of... bearings I would say,  will never find themselfs at home in such environment. 

We can all agree on this I am postive.. This will be a heavly instanced linear story driven mmo, that is class based and focus heavily on force sensitives.

If someone can prove me like wise prove it...

New Single Player MMO have we here. You got hencmen, no need to group up with other people since you'll have pets. "More content than any other project", that means quests. Thousands of them. My guess is, they'll create some epic questline for us to run through with plenty of KillX and fed-ex sidequests, with prizes like Multicolored Lightsaber of DarkDoom +5 waiting at the end. PvP in other planets? Welcome to WoW battlegrounds with lazerz, pewpew! Here you can compete against other players and collect Forcepoints to become the nerd of the month in PvP rankings.

I bet my left nut it will be almost exactly like this. Opposite of sandbox.

it will have alot of single player but it cant have to much or else it wouldnt be an mmo.

Originally posted by Fishermage

From what I am seeing it looks like that. I always loved the "sandbox with toys" concept of Raph Koster, even though it was never fully or properly implemented with SWG.

It seems, however, that LA/Bioware have completely thrown that idea out, and decided just to go with the toys.

I can see how this can make a very enjoyable game, but well, personally, I wanted something more.

I am curious as to what people's opinions are on this :)

ToR will be a box, just not a sandbox. The thing to remember is, stories end and sandbox is forever.

Originally posted by Joker2240

We can all agree on this I am postive.. This will be a heavly instanced linear story driven mmo, that is class based and focus heavily on force sensitives.

If someone can prove me like wise prove it...

I believe the syaing is "prove you otherwise" and no I don't think anyone can. From everything that has been said about the game so far it smells just as you have outlined it. My purchase factor for this title is at about 5% right now due to me reading it being pretty much as you have written here.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Bioware for sure. Dragon Age is on my purchase list as well ar Neverwinter Nights 2: Storms of Zehir (which I don't think they are directly making but they did start NWN). There are just going to have to be alot more of the things that have gone missing since the first generation MMos added and updated to this title before I can seriously think about buying it.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Joker2240

We can all agree on this I am postive.. This will be a heavly instanced linear story driven mmo, that is class based and focus heavily on force sensitives.

If someone can prove me like wise prove it...

 

I believe the syaing is "prove you otherwise" and no I don't think anyone can. From everything that has been said about the game so far it smells just as you have outlined it. My purchase factor for this title is at about 5% right now due to me reading it being pretty much as you have written here.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Bioware for sure. Dragon Age is on my purchase list as well ar Neverwinter Nights 2: Storms of Zehir (which I don't think they are directly making but they did start NWN). There are just going to have to be alot more of the things that have gone missing since the first generation MMos added and updated to this title before I can seriously think about buying it.

Actually, you can prove him otherwise.  Because of few of the terms he made.

1.) Heavy-Instancing:  Bioware didn't made any references to instances or heavy-instancing.  The only reason he believe that'll be the case is because Bioware said "story-driven MMO."  But where's the rule that a "story-driven MMO" has to be instanced?

2.) Linear:  Yes, when you hear "story-driven MMO" you would probably think it's going to be linear, but again, there are complex stories where it isn't linear, why don't you think Bioware cannot do those complex stories in MMO?  Do you have any information that they are not?

3.) Focus Heavily on Force Sensitives:  This is a guess really.  Even though the announcement only confirms Sith and Jedi, but there are classes that will probably be in just because they are the staple Star Wars regular (such as Bounty Hunters and Smugglers).  According to the announcement, all classes will have different stories, so why would you think they will focus heavily on the Force Sensitives (Sith/Jedi) only and not the other classes?

Seriously, we don't have enough information to make claims like that.  I would suggest to wait until more information are out before making claims like that.

I think this will be completely different from SWG, but that's not all bad.  I loved the sandbox aspect of SWG, but who knows what's possible when Bioware's on the line.

Originally posted by Forcan

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Joker2240

We can all agree on this I am postive.. This will be a heavly instanced linear story driven mmo, that is class based and focus heavily on force sensitives.

If someone can prove me like wise prove it...

 

I believe the syaing is "prove you otherwise" and no I don't think anyone can. From everything that has been said about the game so far it smells just as you have outlined it. My purchase factor for this title is at about 5% right now due to me reading it being pretty much as you have written here.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Bioware for sure. Dragon Age is on my purchase list as well ar Neverwinter Nights 2: Storms of Zehir (which I don't think they are directly making but they did start NWN). There are just going to have to be alot more of the things that have gone missing since the first generation MMos added and updated to this title before I can seriously think about buying it.

 

Actually, you can prove him otherwise.  Because of few of the terms he made.

1.) Heavy-Instancing:  Bioware didn't made any references to instances or heavy-instancing.  The only reason he believe that'll be the case is because Bioware said "story-driven MMO."  But where's the rule that a "story-driven MMO" has to be instanced?

2.) Linear:  Yes, when you hear "story-driven MMO" you would probably think it's going to be linear, but again, there are complex stories where it isn't linear, why don't you think Bioware cannot do those complex stories in MMO?  Do you have any information that they are not?

3.) Focus Heavily on Force Sensitives:  This is a guess really.  Even though the announcement only confirms Sith and Jedi, but there are classes that will probably be in just because they are the staple Star Wars regular (such as Bounty Hunters and Smugglers).  According to the announcement, all classes will have different stories, so why would you think they will focus heavily on the Force Sensitives (Sith/Jedi) only and not the other classes?

 

Seriously, we don't have enough information to make claims like that.  I would suggest to wait until more information are out before making claims like that.

Yeah, I see no reason that story-driven needs to be linear, especially if the stories work in a cascade format -- like in choose your own adventure style stories. If your decisions send you down different lines, and those lead to different directions, and so on, then it's essentially a very non-linear game.

Also, they have said that the other classes will be as "powerful" as the Jedi and Sith, and yes each have their own story, so the game will not be all about Jedi and Sith. Plus, just because each has it's own story, it doesn't mean you can go through your content with a partner of another class, and then, in exchange, help them out with theirs.

If the story is inviting and interesting, and ENCOURAGES grouping, rather than forcing it (their words), that could make for a fun, varied experience. If ikt'not all about levelling up to the endgame, and actually about experiencing the game -- wow, wouldn't that be great?

I think that even though it won't be as much of a sandbox as SWG (pre-CU and now), it still might be a great game.

Now, this is coming from a person who LOVED SWG pre-CU, and was very disappointed with the NGE. I also however love WoW, and CoH, and enjoy both for what they are. I feel if SWTOR takes what is good about WoW (content and gameplay) and makes it better, by making the content even more engaging and meaningful, that could be great.

We'll see. I still do find it ironic that in spite of all this, the best sandbox is still gonna be SWG.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

I honestly do not understand it. The outcry that happend after NGE was that it killed a lot of the sandboxness of the game. So the answer is to kill even more????  SWG Pre NGE had me hopeful SWG NGE was a kick in the teeth. I am not sure what to make of SWTOR honestly it's starting to sound like a Sci Fi WoW with new ellements. I don't know, I was hoping they would re-do SWG  after the NGE thing but .... not like this so I will sit back and just watch and see what happens. Deffinetly not optomistic about it right now.

 

I think the question is why would you think it would be anything like SWG when it's being made by a different company that has their own ideas on what games should be like and are trying to use ideas from previous games they have made to make this one.

 

Personaly the reason why for me would be that I felt that it was a universal cry of WTF when NGE hit, and  it appeard that they were working on a new title due to the folly of SOE. Will you disagree that the biggest Folly that cost many subs of SOE was NGE? I can say if you don't many will. People that played SWG were in a few groups. Some simply liked the Star Wars IP, some simply enjoyed Sci Fi MMO's, some enjoyed Sci Fi MMO's and the Star Wars IP.  These players almost Universaly cried Fowl when NGE hit, so the response for that is to take even more of what made many enjoy SWG out. To me it just didn't make since that they would go the route so many had a problem with. The majority had a problem with NGE to some extent, many took it so far as to quit.

As I said I am just going to wait and see, as far as why I thought they would make it any thing like what SWG was originaly it is because of the outcry of the IP's fan base that were AGAINST the loss of the sandboxness of SWG. To remove even more just doesn't seem logical to me. I guess they are trying to branch out and grab WoW players which is fine. As I said at this point in time it is a wait and see thing.

 

One thing is obvious is that SWG players were very attached to the game.  People like to band together for a common cause and I believe thats what SWG players use NGE to do this.  As I said though this is a different developer so why expect them to recreate a game that had the ideas of a different developer?  I think if you want a SWG game you have to hope someone hires the developer who was in charge of creating SWG.

 

I have already stated why, There is already an existing fan base for the IP and the MMO. So the route they are going just doesn't seem the most logical to me. That is merely my opinion at this time. They are in essence going against what the current fan base wants which of course there choice I just don't see the logic of it. To me it would seem safer to go the sandbox route with Star Wars atleast because there is already an exisiting player base waiting. The themepark is the opposite if what many of these players want. I am not sure how StarTrek will play out but by the time the new SW MMO hit's there will be several established Themeparks Sci Fi MMO's and atleast 1 with an established IP fan base (If it delivers) and very few Sandbox Sci Fi competitors.

You asked why and I answerd. To me it seems like a big risk and against what the existing player base wants, this is just my opinion though and should not be taken for more than that.

 

That logic doesn't make any sense.  There are a small but fanatic group of SWG players, but Bioware already has a large group of KOTOR fans with which they will have to please amoungst their playerbase.  Obviously they are going to stick with their own ideas instead of trying to use someone elses.  It makes sense to use your own ideas and do what you believe  makes a good game.  Not what someone else believes will make a great game.

 

Picking a genre isn't taking the idea's of another Dev. There are linear games and non-linear games and there are linear games with sandbox elements and non-linear games with themepark elements. By what you are saying they HAVE taken the idea's of other developers because they chose one of these pre-existing styles to begin with. To truely fit in with what you are saying they would have to completely create a brand new style of game that firs in neither sandbox or themepark, nor themepark with sandbox elements or sandbox with themepark elements.

And to be honest there story telling aspect sounds like a clone of the Citedale of Sorcery feature which has been in development for awhile now.

So what I am saying is, in my opinion, the fan base wanted a sandbox SW MMO and it looks like they are making a Themepark SW MMO which is the opposite of the majority of those that are willing to play a SW MMO wanted which to me is not very logical and I will specify on LA's part not BioWare's. Having control of the liscence gives LA controll over what style of game it will be because they can deny use if they wish.

The "fan base" isn't something you get to say what they think or feel about it. 

I love this games direction and really hope the fanboi swg moaners are left out in the cold with this game.

{ Mod Edit }

Yes swg will still be more of a sandbox, tOR will be far closer to other recent mmos released, as we know there will be classes and levels this much has been confirmed on the blogging and gaming sites.

However I have a damn load more faith in Bioware to produce a good working polished game as opposed to the rushed mess of the NGE.  Hopefully bioware take there time and don't get too much pressure from EA or Lucasarts to rush the game out in time for a deadline, that would be my biggest fear at this point.

Originally posted by ronan32

swg as it is today in its nge state is more sandbox than any AAA mmo. I almost forgive Soe because these new mmo's are shit, to put it bluntly.

Well said.

Originally posted by Forcan

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Joker2240

We can all agree on this I am postive.. This will be a heavly instanced linear story driven mmo, that is class based and focus heavily on force sensitives.

If someone can prove me like wise prove it...

 

I believe the syaing is "prove you otherwise" and no I don't think anyone can. From everything that has been said about the game so far it smells just as you have outlined it. My purchase factor for this title is at about 5% right now due to me reading it being pretty much as you have written here.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Bioware for sure. Dragon Age is on my purchase list as well ar Neverwinter Nights 2: Storms of Zehir (which I don't think they are directly making but they did start NWN). There are just going to have to be alot more of the things that have gone missing since the first generation MMos added and updated to this title before I can seriously think about buying it.

 

Actually, you can prove him otherwise.  Because of few of the terms he made.

1.) Heavy-Instancing:  Bioware didn't made any references to instances or heavy-instancing.  The only reason he believe that'll be the case is because Bioware said "story-driven MMO."  But where's the rule that a "story-driven MMO" has to be instanced?

2.) Linear:  Yes, when you hear "story-driven MMO" you would probably think it's going to be linear, but again, there are complex stories where it isn't linear, why don't you think Bioware cannot do those complex stories in MMO?  Do you have any information that they are not?

3.) Focus Heavily on Force Sensitives:  This is a guess really.  Even though the announcement only confirms Sith and Jedi, but there are classes that will probably be in just because they are the staple Star Wars regular (such as Bounty Hunters and Smugglers).  According to the announcement, all classes will have different stories, so why would you think they will focus heavily on the Force Sensitives (Sith/Jedi) only and not the other classes?

 

Seriously, we don't have enough information to make claims like that.  I would suggest to wait until more information are out before making claims like that.

1) While "Heavy" is a subjective term, Bioware has already admitted today that there will be instancing to pull off their vision of Story that is one of their talking points. Yes, they also state there will be non-instanced area in which to play however the easiest path of resistance for them to have players play through the unique experiences based on class that they are pushing. There is an interview Ten Ton Hammer if you are interested in reading this.

2) I don't think they (Bioware) will do it because it would be easier for them not to. I never, never stated they "can't" do them. I just believe they won't do them because, again, it's easier not to. I've played plenty of Bioware games. I know fully what they are capable of doing. What they are capable of and what they find they "have to do" once they get into making this, thier first MMO will not doubt take two different paths.

3) Because 7 or 8 out of every 10 players dream of being a Jedi or Sith. That isn't rocket science. It would be pretty crazy not to heavily invest your resources into perfecting those two classes. Yes they have stated there will be other classes. They have even intimated that, well at least one guy has, that Jedi should not "one-shot" other classes. If they can do that, great, but I have a bad feeling that the staff is made up of pro-uberness of Jedi folks and somehow, somewhere Jedi/Sith will be superior.

I mentioned them taking the easy route a couple of times. I say this because it is widely considered level-based systems being easier to do than other variations of character advancement. Their decision to go level-based so that they can focus on Story shows me they aren't really focusing on innovation with regard to game systems. Story simplifies down to NPC quests, which are just words on a screen. Yes, good quests are a nice thing, but having "better quests" than other games is in itself subjective. Also, there are many other areas aside from combat and Story that help a game transform into a world. I have a fear that Bioware will be so caught up in their Story elements that they don't give those other areas as much attention. Funcom did that with Combat and well, we saw how that went.

Yes, I can agree that we have little information and very few hard facts out as of now. That said I have been around playing MMOs a while (since launch of Ultima Online) and I have seen enough in games and in rhetoric from game developers to be comfortable in that what I have said above will be close enough to be hand grenade lethal. It'd be great if I was completly wrong. I'm not one of those guys that "has" to be right and everyone else is a fool. There are plenty of those here to fulfill that role. I just know if it looks like a pig, smells like a pig, all the lipstick in the world won't change it from being a pig.

And I can already smell the pig-pen on this one. I'll continue to follow it but unless there are some actual changes from the current method of making games I won't be buying it. Again, I'd like nothing more than to be wrong and equal focus is given on all areas of play. I just don't see it happening as of now.

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Forcan

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Originally posted by Joker2240

We can all agree on this I am postive.. This will be a heavly instanced linear story driven mmo, that is class based and focus heavily on force sensitives.

If someone can prove me like wise prove it...

 

I believe the syaing is "prove you otherwise" and no I don't think anyone can. From everything that has been said about the game so far it smells just as you have outlined it. My purchase factor for this title is at about 5% right now due to me reading it being pretty much as you have written here.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Bioware for sure. Dragon Age is on my purchase list as well ar Neverwinter Nights 2: Storms of Zehir (which I don't think they are directly making but they did start NWN). There are just going to have to be alot more of the things that have gone missing since the first generation MMos added and updated to this title before I can seriously think about buying it.

 

Actually, you can prove him otherwise.  Because of few of the terms he made.

1.) Heavy-Instancing:  Bioware didn't made any references to instances or heavy-instancing.  The only reason he believe that'll be the case is because Bioware said "story-driven MMO."  But where's the rule that a "story-driven MMO" has to be instanced?

2.) Linear:  Yes, when you hear "story-driven MMO" you would probably think it's going to be linear, but again, there are complex stories where it isn't linear, why don't you think Bioware cannot do those complex stories in MMO?  Do you have any information that they are not?

3.) Focus Heavily on Force Sensitives:  This is a guess really.  Even though the announcement only confirms Sith and Jedi, but there are classes that will probably be in just because they are the staple Star Wars regular (such as Bounty Hunters and Smugglers).  According to the announcement, all classes will have different stories, so why would you think they will focus heavily on the Force Sensitives (Sith/Jedi) only and not the other classes?

 

Seriously, we don't have enough information to make claims like that.  I would suggest to wait until more information are out before making claims like that.

 

1) While "Heavy" is a subjective term, Bioware has already admitted today that there will be instancing to pull off their vision of Story that is one of their talking points. Yes, they also state there will be non-instanced area in which to play however the easiest path of resistance for them to have players play through the unique experiences based on class that they are pushing. There is an interview Ten Ton Hammer if you are interested in reading this.

I already read that article and another one from some other site (can't remember at the moment).  And from their words, it seems that yes, they will use instances, at least, "a form of instance" to tell the story.  But I still don't believe that such statement = "heavy-instancing".

 

2) I don't think they (Bioware) will do it because it would be easier for them not to. I never, never stated they "can't" do them. I just believe they won't do them because, again, it's easier not to. I've played plenty of Bioware games. I know fully what they are capable of doing. What they are capable of and what they find they "have to do" once they get into making this, thier first MMO will not doubt take two different paths.

Sorry, wasn't just pointing this at you.  Was mostly focusing on Joker's post and also responding to yours a bit.  In any case, you can believe that they won't, but I believe that they will just because of the way a great story will have different twists and turns in it, and that due to their own words of "your decisions matters", I believe that they will go for the complex story design rather that take the easy way out.

 

3) Because 7 or 8 out of every 10 players dream of being a Jedi or Sith. That isn't rocket science. It would be pretty crazy not to heavily invest your resources into perfecting those two classes. Yes they have stated there will be other classes. They have even intimated that, well at least one guy has, that Jedi should not "one-shot" other classes. If they can do that, great, but I have a bad feeling that the staff is made up of pro-uberness of Jedi folks and somehow, somewhere Jedi/Sith will be superior.

Yes, they may very well be focusing on the Jedi/Sith plot-line more than other classes, but that is due to the story they picked to do (a war between the two faction with Jedi/Sith at the front line?)  I would still say that it doesn't mean everything will be focus heavily on just Jedi/Sith, or Force-Sensitive in general.  We don't have the information here really.  But with the idea of wanting to push for a complex story in a game, why would they limit themselves in just the small section of the contents?  There are many staple character classes in Star Wars, and those will not be neglected in my opinion, if they are making sure all classes have unique storyline.

 

I mentioned them taking the easy route a couple of times. I say this because it is widely considered level-based systems being easier to do than other variations of character advancement. Their decision to go level-based so that they can focus on Story shows me they aren't really focusing on innovation with regard to game systems. Story simplifies down to NPC quests, which are just words on a screen. Yes, good quests are a nice thing, but having "better quests" than other games is in itself subjective. Also, there are many other areas aside from combat and Story that help a game transform into a world. I have a fear that Bioware will be so caught up in their Story elements that they don't give those other areas as much attention. Funcom did that with Combat and well, we saw how that went.

Progress system is not the first, nor is it the last place for innovation.  People may get sick and tired of the level-based systems (I know I am), but that doesn't mean you can't modify it to fit something that is innovating.  Personally I don't like level-based system, and I don't like class-based game play, but I am curious of how they are pushing the story content.  MMO players has the tendency of not reading the quests (and the story with it) due to the repetitiveness of it.  I want to see what Bioware is doing to solve such problem before I can make up my mind of what the outcome may be.

Again, I do agree that there is a possibility for Bioware to screw up their attention and fail at this, but there's also the chance for them to really stay true to their vision of grand storyline with interesting systems to give players an immersive feeling for this game.  I prefer to be the optimist in the view, and with more information comes out, I may change my view.

Yes, I can agree that we have little information and very few hard facts out as of now. That said I have been around playing MMOs a while (since launch of Ultima Online) and I have seen enough in games and in rhetoric from game developers to be comfortable in that what I have said above will be close enough to be hand grenade lethal. It'd be great if I was completly wrong. I'm not one of those guys that "has" to be right and everyone else is a fool. There are plenty of those here to fulfill that role. I just know if it looks like a pig, smells like a pig, all the lipstick in the world won't change it from being a pig.

And I can already smell the pig-pen on this one. I'll continue to follow it but unless there are some actual changes from the current method of making games I won't be buying it. Again, I'd like nothing more than to be wrong and equal focus is given on all areas of play. I just don't see it happening as of now.

I do agree with you that this game may seems like just another questing-type MMO, but from what I have gather as of now, it seems that they are taking a different approach to certain aspect of MMO.  And I am curious on the method of their approach, as I'm sure it may be different than what I can think up and what I've seen from the MMOs I've played.  I just like to be the forever optimist and at the same time asking people not to flat-out condemn a game or to label it as just another cookie cutter game without even seening the systems in action.

So will SWG still be more of a sandbox than SWTOR?

Yes I think even SWG NGE will be much more sandbox than SW:TOR will be

SW:TOR will be a single player game with alot of MMO bells and whistles...nothing more than that. Some Player will enjoy SW:TOR while others will hate it.

The days of the "Sandbox" style MMO are over, Developers and Artists no longer design games, their Account and Executive Bosses make all design dicisions now....and the Bosses only understand dollar signs. It is much more of an investment to make a Sandbox MMO than it is to whip out another ThemePark MMO.

Originally posted by Gardavil

So will SWG still be more of a sandbox than SWTOR?

Yes I think even SWG NGE will be much more sandbox than SW:TOR will be

SW:TOR will be a single player game with alot of MMO bells and whistles...nothing more than that. Some Player will enjoy SW:TOR while others will hate it.

The days of the "Sandbox" style MMO are over, Developers and Artists no longer design games, their Account and Executive Bosses make all design dicisions now....and the Bosses only understand dollar signs. It is much more of an investment to make a Sandbox MMO than it is to whip out another ThemePark MMO.

Just a gentle reminder. It is never wise to say the days of X are over. I remember a long time ago people saying, the days of the small record producer are over -- then downloading slammed the large record producers and dozens of small producers popped up. Now some of the most successful entrepreneurs of this generation are small music producers.

In the early 80s they said the days of the small art films are over (after a bunch of them in the late sixites and seventies), then the 90s and the 2000s spawned an explosion of them. Then, corporate America saw the profit in it and bought the smaller houses that made them, which led to a generification of it, which will lead to a new explosion of small producers doing innovative things, and so on -- until we are doing these same things living on sixteen planets and space staions in five different star systems.

The only constant is change. It's never over.

Like many of the posters on this thread, I too miss the sandbox style of play. True, the game developers can set up a toy set that encourages player imagination and innovation, but in the end the players themselves must fill up that world with those qualities and it is hard to see how enough people are around with the dedication to temporally and financially support a sandbox. As much as we fondly remember pre-CU SWG, all of us complained, at least once, that our communities were not active enough. Still, here are the traits and tools that I believe are helpful for a sandbox (you will recognize many of these traits from SWG):    Please comment!

1. One character limit per server (like a non-jedi SWG character). I simply believe full dedication to a single avatar is still the most effective way to draw the best creative response from a player as opposed to the current practice of rolling all the classes (maybe an exception could be made for a single non-combat type avatar). I personally found it frustrating to come on and play with my friends only to be told they were busy with grinding up new level 18 warlocks, mages, blah blah. The linear, class-based system with mulitple avatars not only erodes roleplaying (I mean moderate, not elaborate roleplaying) but gives the developers an excuse to limit the growth potential of a single, dedicated avatar.

2. No classes. Your character acquires skills and your character is free to drop skills and pick up different ones if he/she chooses.

3. Best gear for combat comes exclusively from crafted items from the player community, not from RAID sets, reputation-grinding rewards, or PvP grinding rewards. Certain components for player crafted gear could be loot drops and such but the final usable product should be crafted.

4. Player houses and player cities (the thing we miss most in WoW). 

5. Significant and relevant non-combat activities that support combat: crafting, healing, buffing.

6. Significant and relevant non-combat activities that support fun: music, dancing, social events, housing construction, city-item construction, clothing customization, avatar feature customization (hair, skin color).

7. Rewards for activities not related to leveling: Badges for collection, exploration, accomplishing deeds. In other words: Life beyond loot drops!!

8. Limited preset playzones that are newcomer, player level 1-5, 6-10, etc. Such playzones separate players rather than bring them together. Now, more difficult areas can be created and a dangerous world can have a safety zone for a player with lesser skills, but the rigid playzones of current MMOs just fosters the linear playstyle (as does the limited access and passage points between playzones).

Some desirable toysets would also include:

1. Dynamic NPCs and NPC cities whose futures were dependent upon player activities (such as PvP or quest results). Check out Citadel of Socery for some interesting descriptions of game elements (this is not a recommendation to play CoS, we all know those little companies are lucky to get to the publishing stage).

2. Uniquely generated player quests and storyline development (again, refer to Citadel of Socery).

3. PvP with a purpose (linked to significant world changes and themes, not just arenas and limited play areas).

4. PvP competition that draws upon non-combat roles (such as construction, mining or agricultural skills).

5. Significant incentives to avoid player death (lets give some realism and excitement to the process!). If you want to play a fragfest, Team Fortress is your game!

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I really do not mind if an MMO wants to emphasize its own content and themeparks, but not at the expense of leaving out the elements that support sandbox play if members of the player community chose to go that direction. Right now, the major MMOs don't give players the tools to select that option.

I am sure I have left lots of features out that encourage sandbox play, what do you think?