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10/15/08 6:46:11 PM#61
Fighter Are the basic profession molds players have come up with over the years. The fastest profession to train is Trader which takes about 8 months to max out depending on implants and race. The slowest profession to train is Fighter which takes almost 2 years to max out for one of the four races. As a result atleast having one alt account becomes important for the player who wants to not slow down the progression of their main for a secondary profession. To keep thiings in perspective.
But that fact isn't important because ghost training really was an incentive to those who were willing to buy alt accounts. Even though they make up about 15% of the population they account for almost a third of paid for accounts. (this is all according to CCP's guesses about populations) In retrospect I believe now CCP wasn't doing this to milk money out of their regular players but doing this because of the increasing popularity of character sellers. CCP probably believes there are enough people making accounts just to ghost train characters to sell to other players that if they price gouge them the amount of money they make off them will be more beneficial than the money they lose from players who cancel their alts. |
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10/15/08 7:09:37 PM#62
Originally posted by Ozmodan This has long been a major feature that most players take advantage of. Removing a major feature of a game with is most certainly a darn good reason to rethink playing the game anymore.
ROFL, whatever dude but you still have an invalid point. For the ALt to be effective the account must be ACTIVE which means Ghosting is not relevant. The so called feature does not in ANYWAY hinder the reasoning you have given for a second account because the account must be active to be used. As for the scout, again I say have other players to help. I ran a SUCCESSFUL mining corporation for about 6 months before real life took me out of the game. I was part of massive mining operations and cargo hauls. No one ever used an ALT to move stuff in the corp and yet we only suffered a few loses when we got hit with a war dec. We did this really amazing thing for an MMO, we use the multi player part to bring in other players so we could all work together. If you want to two box the game, then by all means feel free but do not push this crap out that you have to do this to be successful, that is pure BS. If you want to two box in the way you are suggesting, more power to you but that is IRRELEVENT to the discussion of Ghosting since an inactive account is USELESS as an escort or scout. BTW in the explination of using a scout a point to be made is that the alt does not need a lot of skills for this, in fact an ALT in a noob corp and a shuttle is one of the safest and best scouts you can use in the manner you described. So again Ghosting is a none issue.
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10/15/08 9:44:11 PM#63
The announcement was made Monday. On Eve’s official forums, the original GM master thread on the subject was locked at 49 pages. Wednesday night and the new master GM thread they made and buried in a corner is up to 130 pages long. Those are in the “Information Portal” section of the forum. The Eve “General Discussion” section has numerous independent smaller threads that get locked. How many gaming issues do you know that run around 180 pages long in a bit over 2 days time? If that isn’t the community speaking, I don’t know what is. |
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10/16/08 2:38:10 AM#64
The point here is that most the arguments FOR ghost training are for supposedly 'needed alts'. Alts are definately NOT needed in EvE. Also, if they were so needed, why would they be inactive anyways? The use of alts in EvE is so you don't have to depend on other players for assistance (whether it is hauling, scouting, whatever). They are in no way necessary. I rarely ever even log on my second and third characters on my account, and when I do, its just to test some graphics change or to look up something in game that I don't need to use my main for. I think Character farming has hurt eve quite a bit, in that you have a lot of players that have no real idea on how to use their high-sp characters. Ghost training helps that farming disproportionally more than the average player, so it IS bad for EvE overall. CraziFuzzy |
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cosy
 Newshound
Joined: 9/15/04
EvE Rules #491 you should never, ever attack Russians on winter months |
10/16/08 6:46:09 AM#65
CraziFuzzy well today alts are needed more that any day
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10/16/08 7:04:08 AM#66
Mopar, you have convinced every reader here you have very limited experience with the game. Every heard of a covert ops ship, that is what i scout with, not a new player account. That requires a healthy training regimen. Pretty evident you are trying to hide a brief association with the game by professing knowledge of it. Sorry, that does not work here. Using snide remarks just reinforces your troll status in this thread. |
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10/16/08 10:08:35 AM#67
Originally posted by Ozmodan
And you convince me more everyday that you must argue by putting someone down with tripe since you do not have a clue. I currently am a spcialized Covert Ops pilot moving toward Black Ops ships. What is sad to me is that you do not understand the simple concept of the ALT scout that has been with the game FOREVER! It has long been a standard practice to make an alt, keep them in their noob corporation and then use them in a shuttle to scout out the enemy. You seem to be unaware of this practice and you call me a noob, excalty how many wars have you fought in? This practice is used all the time. Additionally however my original point still stands that Ghosting does not impact this since even your stealth pilot must have an active account to be used and thus is not ghosting. Oh wait unless in your vast game experience you have somehow found a way to get a pilot to be able to fly using an INACTIVE account. As for my experience, my first time playing the game was in early 2004, I left after almost a year of play becuase of RL issues and started a new account in December of 2005. During all these times I have member a member of PIE, 1PG, Infinite Dreams, Sarum Guard, CAIN and a few others. I have run characters for all 4 races and do have the nasty habit of starting over after each time I take a break from the game. So please take your elitist play attitude and stick it in your missile tube.
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10/16/08 9:17:41 PM#68
Originally posted by Mopar63
And you convince me more everyday that you must argue by putting someone down with tripe since you do not have a clue. I currently am a spcialized Covert Ops pilot moving toward Black Ops ships. What is sad to me is that you do not understand the simple concept of the ALT scout that has been with the game FOREVER! It has long been a standard practice to make an alt, keep them in their noob corporation and then use them in a shuttle to scout out the enemy. You seem to be unaware of this practice and you call me a noob, excalty how many wars have you fought in? This practice is used all the time. Additionally however my original point still stands that Ghosting does not impact this since even your stealth pilot must have an active account to be used and thus is not ghosting. Oh wait unless in your vast game experience you have somehow found a way to get a pilot to be able to fly using an INACTIVE account. As for my experience, my first time playing the game was in early 2004, I left after almost a year of play becuase of RL issues and started a new account in December of 2005. During all these times I have member a member of PIE, 1PG, Infinite Dreams, Sarum Guard, CAIN and a few others. I have run characters for all 4 races and do have the nasty habit of starting over after each time I take a break from the game. So please take your elitist play attitude and stick it in your missile tube.
Must've been a while since you last played Eve eh? Did you relise that you can now almost create a "specialised cov-ops" pilot in a few weeks? Create a Caldari toon of just the right spec, and you start the game at frigate 5, gunnery 5, and start with awesome learning attributes. So in a couple weeks, you gain access to T2 ships AND guns. 20au probes can be trained in a week or so depending on attributes. Sorry man, but your "specialised cov-ops pilot", is little more than a 2 month old n00b by the standard of todays Eve. BTW, PIE sounds a bit familiar. Was it Pie-Rats, or PIE Inc? 1PG has 38 members, and belongs to a pretty much dead alliance consisting of only one other corp called Imperial Star Guards with a whopping 12 members. CAIN consists of 1 member in a 1 member alliance, and Sarum Guard doesn't even exist as a corp OR alliance in Eve. Odd really But on the bright side, I hear Goonswarm might be recruiting |
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damian7
Apprentice Member
Joined: 4/20/06
why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid? |
10/17/08 4:47:32 AM#69
Originally posted by CraziFuzzy
one of the points here is money. if, between all my accounts, on average, i am paying about $55 USD to ccp, is that not MORE money than the $15 USD (or less if you pay 3-, 6-, 12- months at a time) that a person with a single account would pay? ccp WANTS you to have more than one account. no? then please explain why i keep getting emails from ccp about the power of 2? they've had at least two big marketing pushes for "the power of 2" this year.
so, with that in mind, it's a bit il-logical to think that ccp does NOT want you to have multiple accounts. as someone else stated, if you're going to be a spy, you need multiple accounts. spies are a basic part of eve. to deny it, is to be in denial.
anyone that doesn't know how to use their high sp character is not a detriment to me. they're a detriment to themselves and the suckers they fly with. but, odds are, those people would be a detriment if they grew a character from the start to 100m sp. some people are eternal noobs in any game, and others pick up every game within a week and are pros at it.
bottom line is twofold - 1 'ghost' training is a feature of the game from it's onset. it was removed before and quickly replaced. therefore ccp does NOT consider it a bug. 2 ccp WANTS you to have multiple accounts. could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please? |
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10/17/08 5:41:24 AM#70
One recurring theme you hear over and over and over again, in the now 143 page long new master thread (remember there’s also a 49 page old master thread that was locked), is that people see the ghost training as incentive for people to log back in. People sometimes have to take a break from the game, either because of rl or just because they’re bored or burned out on the game, but they set a skill to train before leaving, and they have more incentive to log back in, reactivate, knowing that it’s done. Really, that thought keeps popping up over and over and over in the thread. CCP will lose money by removing that incentive. I only repeat that here mainly because it’s something that people on this board who are from other games can relate to because it’s almost exactly like rested xp in other games. Ghost training, like rested xp is limited. For ghost training, you set one skill level to train when you inactivate an Eve account, and only that one skill level runs to completion, there is no skill queue. You must reactivate and log in to continue advancing beyond that ONE skill level you got while you ‘rested.’. With rested xp in other games, just being logged out, and of course being inactive, gains you some xp, faster leveling, but only for a level or two. It’s pretty much the same thing. The reason Eve players are so disappointed in CCP is that they announced the change 2 days before they planned on implementing it, and CCP repeatedly lied about the reasons for it and also lied about trying to sweep it under the carpet by moving threads around. More than that, Eve characters take so so so so so so much longer to advance than characters in other games, and there is no reset in expansions like other games to bring older and newer players on anywhere near a even playing field, ANY given account only has ONE fully functional character such that the character matters so much more per 15 dollars than in other mmos, that the ‘rested xp’ of ghost training is even more important in Eve than other mmos. So, ya, just thought I’d bring up that parallel with rested xp in other games. |
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Kyleran
 Elite Member
Joined: 9/13/06
A simple truth-"What people want and what is good for an mmo is not always the same thing"-mrw0lf |
10/17/08 6:03:07 AM#71
Originally posted by cosy
You don't "need" any of that. EVE is about making choices. You don't get to experience the entire game, just as in real life. I have a scout alt, on my 3rd acct. I don't have a miner, mining sucks anyways, I do have a tackler, on my pimary account, but I never tackle, because he's even better at ewar, so I let my corp mates tackle. Two of my accounts can haul with industrials, haven't seen the need yet to fly the bigger ships, but it would be a simplet thing to add to one of them. Building, if I really wanted to, then I'd have a 4th account. I have multiple accounts in EVE because I'm impatient, and so I was able to accomplish more in a shorter period of time. That's what you are going to have to do now too, though you might have been skirting the rules a bit to accomplish your goals. Sure, the EVE forums are lit up with people complaining about this...the same 1000 people posting ad nasuem over the issue. No one is actually reading the threads, and in the end, I doubt CCP will much care. But if it really bothers you that much, you are free to cancel your accounts and leave, the option we all have when the game pisses us off too much. (oh wait, most of your accounts aren't active anyways, skip that last step)
"Just because you aren't paying doesn't mean it's not PTW." - Amaranthar |
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10/17/08 6:40:55 AM#72
Originally posted by Jennyfyr
If you look at my blogs and other posts you will see I have recently returned to EVE and yes did start over. So in that sense yes my "pilot" is a noob. PIE was PIE, INc, 1PG when I was part of it was not in an alliance, it was a bit back. The Sarum Guard was a corporation I founded in a previous character as was Infinite Dreams. Also a bit of history at one time CAIN was one of the largest Caldari RP corps not sure about now. As for the Goonswarm, I like RP corps so I will likely gravitate to one of those. ============================= |
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10/17/08 8:43:25 AM#73
Well Mopar just to give you an idea how badly this is going effect CCP, I took a survey this past week in my alliance. So far, just in my alliance I have 253 players with mulitple accounts who have stated they are not reupping their 2nd or 3rd accounts because of this change. This is out of over 400 who replied. Your rhetoric aside, Eve depends on players having a lot of mulitple accounts, it is quite beneficial in a lot of aspects of the game. This is going to hurt their bottom line. It is a braindead manuver and I find your counter arguments, baseless and ineffectual.
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10/17/08 12:57:05 PM#74
But you see your whole arguement is also useless when you realise to USE those alts you must have an active account. This means you must be paying if you are using the accounts. If you are tow the point that you have long enough skills to train that you are cancelling the account for at LEAST 30 days then I am wonmdering why the big deal, by that level the characters are VERY useful as they are, hence no reason to go dead on the account unless you are not going to play the character for a bit, if that is the case then what is the big deal. Thew arguements about needing an ALT aside there is NO REASON to be upset about not getting to play the game for free when you started it knowing it was a paid game. In the case of your alliance it sounds like you are throwing away characters that are pretty developed for no good reason, your waste. In my opinion if CCP has to give the game away for free in essence to the "power" players then they are not losing much by losing those accounts since they are actually a minority on the server. However do what you must, it is game and you free to have your opinions and move on if you like. BTW all those cancelled accounts, can I have thier stuff ?
BTW where is the survey so I can vote?
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Beatnik59
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/23/05
"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977." Now Playing: |
10/18/08 6:26:35 PM#75
I, like many here, wonder what they hope to gain by implementing this change. It certainly isn't because of their stated reason: "This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not." First of all, in EVE, nobody actively puts time and energy into working on their characters. They don't, because nobody needs to do anything to train up skills except set the timer. The skill that takes two days to master will be done in two days whether a person plays two days straight or takes two days off. Anybody who says otherwise just doesn't know EVE. In fact, I'd say that the vast majority of characters in EVE don't have "time and energy" invested in them when training long skills. Whether subscribed or not, most of the training time is accrued at times when the player isn't logged on to EVE. Nor does "ghost training" upset the balance of EVE. Combat balance is not unfairly distorted, because nobody engages in combat when ghost training, just as nobody engages in combat when they go away from an active account for a bunch of days. The only difference between a character on an active account that sits for 60 days without a logon and a ghost trainer is the monetary value: $30. In fact, given CCP's policy on ISK for timecodes, a lot of active accounts don't pay CCP anything anyway. Make no mistake, this isn't about the "balance of the game," nor is this about encouraging players to "actively put time and energy into working on their characters." It isn't, because there is no balance problem when characters aren't being played, and EVE characters don't require "time and energy" to advance. This is just an attempt by CCP to get players who cancelled to subscribe again...not necessarily to "play" EVE, but to "train in absentia," reinforcing the notion that EVE players already know. When it comes to character advancement, it doesn't matter whether you play EVE, it only matters that you pay EVE. So then, why doesn't CCP just drop the facade that this is about "time and energy," or about "balance," and just make it so you pay money for SP? I'm sure that if we take the amount of SP gained per day, we can get an estimate as to how much each SP is worth in a dollar amount. Why not be able to pay a fee to get the skills that we want without having to wait around on an account we don't intend to use? That way, we don't need to worry about losing out on training time, and CCP gets more revenue. Everybody wins that way. __________________________ "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." |
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10/19/08 4:46:38 AM#76
Yes agreed, playtime is more based on obtaining ISK than on skill training. People don't actively skill train like in more common MMOs. I don't understand how people here are confusing acquiring SPs with acquiring ISKs. I think it would make more sense to stop inactive account sell orders, manufacturing jobs and research jobs than to mess with SP training. These three things have far more effects on a character's advancement and on the EvE game as a whole than SP ghost training does imo. I'm surprised that players aren't crying more about that than about the SP ghost training.
The removal of ghost training is very annoying since it removes some of the flexibility I enjoyed with being an EvE player and having multiple accounts. As I explained in another thread, I used to have one account paid for by credit card, and one account 'paid' for by 90 day GTC. The credit card one is one I had to let lapse and ghost train twice, because of work-related issues. The 90 day GTC account was my main who I paid for for 2 years with a credit card as well before I started using the ISK-for-GTC option. Until my recent hiatus from the game, I was active on that account for a long time at a go since she was my trader/miner and made far more ISKs than my combat alt.
My combat alt was a nice addition since he could grind lvl 4 missions and haul when I mined and couldn't convince my corpmates to give me a hand. Quite a few people hate mining and hauling, so having the alt to haul is great. If I do consider coming back to EvE, I guess I'll be playing one account at a time Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC. |
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10/20/08 6:01:18 PM#77
Well, I shan't be resubscribing. Forty years old, back to school with 15 credits and I don't have the time to play as much as I once did. Don't see much point in even resubbing to keep training going between breaks from school with this ignorant change. I had thought better of CCP than this. Perhaps CCP should consult their subscriber base prior to making stupid changes like this ultimate nerf. Thank you CCP for saving me money in the long term though, I can think of better places to spend it now. |
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10/20/08 11:19:19 PM#78
I agree that they could do without making this change. While to most that don't play it seems like common sense to change it, it's actually a really bad idea. Since you cannot go in and CHANGE your training after your account expires, you can only finish training ONE skill while you are inactive. And since that is true, you're bound to come back after that skill is complete, when you will end up paying again for at LEAST another month. It keeps people coming back, paying, yeah they might get a month off in some cases, but overall If I were CCP I would rather allow this then have people just quit playing. Especially with the Alts who are giving them a lot of money. I was thinking about coming back, as I go in and out of EvE Online, and I always liked that when I had to quit for real life reasons, that my Skill kept training at least until I completed that skill. It made me want to come back. Now I'm not so sure. While I understand that CCP is complaining that they are using the Processing Power to maintain these characters, it's not like these characters are going years and years without paying. They all have to reactivate to change skills. I read about GTC bought with ISK, I've never seen the feature, but I guess it exists, if I were CCP I would remove THAT feature, as that only leads to lost revenue, and I wouldn't see anything wrong with them doing that. I currently run an online game, and I won't even allow that feature. While it is a really nice feature to "Give back" It encourages people to find ways to easily farm game money, or "Buy" it, and it definitely cuts revenue as many players will stop having to pay ever. What I DO allow is for people to SELL benefits from their subscription to other players for in-game money. That way the person still has to subscribe, So the revenue is still recieved, but someone that can't afford to, or doesn't want to subscribe can still get benefits of a subscription without real cash being spent, and without my taking a loss in revenue.
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10/21/08 3:32:03 AM#79
Whilst this change doesnt affect me, i have 2 accounts which are always active, but an alt is very much needed for a capital ship pilot, i do no want to jump my ship to any joe's beacon... cap ships are too expensive to jump around recklessly, the one time i did use an alliance mate for a cyno i was put in a very risky situation, of which i do not wish to repeat. But meh, the chinease server has had "ghost training" disabled since its release so :/ 
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10/21/08 3:36:44 AM#80
Originally posted by JackStyles
uh... you do realise that this isnt lost revenue, as another player has to buy the GTC, to trade wit hanother player for ISK... CCP lose nothing
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If you have managed this then you are truly an MMO god.
