Originally posted by Realm-Reaper

PLEASE!!! No "Official" Forums for KOTOR ONLINE!!!

This is my plea and I mean it with every fiber of my being, I really hope that Lucas and BiOWARE will not have Official Forums. Nothing tears apart a community faster than the forums. Just look at WoW, AoC, and SWG. You know I'm right!

No, crappy made games released too early tears apart a community -AoC

Crappy developers that change the entire structure of a game tears apart a community -SWG

And cookie cutter games, desigined for the "lowest common demonitator" tear apart a community (due to the amount of 5-17 year olds playing) -WoW

Originally posted by Alindale

What tore apart SWG was not the forums.  Players posted what they would like to see done to the game there, like bug fixing, ways to actually fix the broken content, level out PvP, and fix the force rank system.  SOE refused to listen to players, for the most part, and decided to make changes based on what they wanted out of the game instead of the what the players wanted.  What SOE wanted was WoW's player base instead of trying to keep and protect their current players.  SOE not caring for their players, openly insulting them, using outside think tanks on major decisions is what lead to most of the grief and flame fests in the forums.  The forums for SWG was a great place till SOE started one of the most epic PvP battles ever in the forums, in which the Player Faction lost to the Dev Faction.

This is true in every respect.  The SWG forums weren't always the nightmare they are known to have been today.  For the first year or two, there was nothing but... well... I've never visited a better forum... ever.  There was so much community on the forums.  People were talking about everything.  Sure, there were arguements, and your normal forum fights.  And there was some trolling.  But it just wasn't that big of a deal back then.

Everything changed after the CU went Live, though.  I think it was because the playerbase finally figured out that SOE was doing absolutely nothing to the game that the players wanted.  It was boiling up pretty badly up til that point, what with the Jedi vs BH wars and all.  But once CU went Live... it was just the tip of the iceberg.

Right before the NGE hit, it was slowly starting to get back to normal.  People were excited about the Ranger and Squad Leader changes that were soon coming.  Finally, the focus had been taken off of Jedi, which held the spotlight for over a year.  Then NGE came out of nowhere, and it was all over.

SWG failed, and likewise, the forum community failed, because SOE did not one single thing the players asked for, the way they asked for it.  We would say that something needed to change, and then basically lay it out for them exactly how it should be... and if they didn't do something that no one even mentioned, they did nothing.

When people lose hope in their development team, then they aren't very good neighbors on the forums.  This is exactly what happened to the AoC boards - and got worse when the MODs turned out to be complete pedophiliac assholes.  WoW is an exception to this since it was highly accessable to a younger audience.... not to mention a whole lot more people in general.

City of Heroes is a great example of how good an official forum can be.  Why is it so great?  Because Cryptic doesn't dick around with their game in a way that is worse for the player than what they originally had!  And.... aside from Jack Emmeritt thinking he knows everything about designing a game (which... hasn't been disproved yet), the MODs and developers aren't just rude to the playerbase.

Originally posted by WRyan

Originally posted by Alindale

What tore apart SWG was not the forums.  Players posted what they would like to see done to the game there, like bug fixing, ways to actually fix the broken content, level out PvP, and fix the force rank system.  SOE refused to listen to players, for the most part, and decided to make changes based on what they wanted out of the game instead of the what the players wanted.  What SOE wanted was WoW's player base instead of trying to keep and protect their current players.  SOE not caring for their players, openly insulting them, using outside think tanks on major decisions is what lead to most of the grief and flame fests in the forums.  The forums for SWG was a great place till SOE started one of the most epic PvP battles ever in the forums, in which the Player Faction lost to the Dev Faction.

 

This is true in every respect.  The SWG forums weren't always the nightmare they are known to have been today.  For the first year or two, there was nothing but... well... I've never visited a better forum... ever.  There was so much community on the forums.  People were talking about everything.  Sure, there were arguements, and your normal forum fights.  And there was some trolling.  But it just wasn't that big of a deal back then.

I really felt that the forums were an extension of the game - and it was a part of the game that I could still participate in while at work (at least when my boss wasn't watching!).

And even more importantly was the trade forums where a lot of business took place.

I simply cannot imagine playing a game that was so commnity oriented that didn't have a forum.

The community in SWG these days from what I noticed on the O-Boards have been nothing about whining about everything in the game. And most of the posts are all flame posts really how healthy is a community is it when everyone is crying , and fighting over little petty BS? Looks like packs of dogs fighting for scraps of whats left of this game...

The SWG official boards are unbelievable, anyone that says that forum's community is great is living a dream. As someone else mentioned, City of Heroes' boards are way way way better hell even some parts of WoW's forums are decent, SWG's is a terrible mess yet I still read it because I want to see who says what next, and what the devs/forumgods (mods) does next. The SWG forums before the NGE weren't so bad only if you avoided the Jedi forum (Jedi seemed to attract the snot nosed 13 year olds).

Tabula Rasa went without an official forum, I normally read PlanetTR's forums since the devs posted there regularily.

Last but not least as to why players / forum posters aren't the reason why a game fails... Is that THEY are not the ones working on the code.

Edit to add:  Personally, whenever I hear an MMO coming out that will not have official forums, I'm immediately suspecting they have something big to hide.  With players splintered off without a "forum home" news dissemenates slower.

Originally posted by Warmaker

HAHAHAHA!!!!  Is this one of those threads that blame the failure of a game on the shoulders of players and forums?

News flash:  MMOs fail because they're crap and / or there are issues with the developers.

Bad games and bad dev teams will fail, and having forums or not will not prevent it.

What not having official forums will do is it prevents a central meeting place for your PLAYERS, i.e. PAYING CUSTOMERS to congragate at.  You know, like minds getting together to share a common theme or goal.

Warhammer Online currently has no official forums.  It's doing well, yes, but IMO, the players are splintered off with a piss-poor sense of community.  Same thing I saw with Guild Wars.  Both have no official forums.

If your game is good, then have no worries about official forums.

If your game is bad, then having forums or not will not matter.  You won't be able to hide for much longer how craptastic your game is.

UMMMM...

NEVER said Official Forums cause games to "FAIL". Go back and read the post.

K-THX!

Originally posted by Realm-Reaper

PLEASE!!! No "Official" Forums for KOTOR ONLINE!!!

This is my plea and I mean it with every fiber of my being, I really hope that Lucas and BiOWARE will not have Official Forums. Nothing tears apart a community faster than the forums. Just look at WoW, AoC, and SWG. You know I'm right!

1) Whenever I hear about a game without official forums, I immediately assume that game is crap. So do most people I know. Generally, I have found that I am right.

2) My experience has always been that games without forums have a difficult time establishing any sort of community. I've never seen a case where the forums are responsible for the meltdown of community... this is always the fault of the game/dev team.

3) Official forums are an incredibly powerful tool for a game publisher. Official forums allow them to control the "message". They allow the game publisher to exert at least some control over the community. Vanguard tried to do this using only unofficial forums... and it failed miserably.

From my experience, most forums are messes. It often breaks down into the mods and the mods friends talking to each other.

But what really pisses me off about most official forums for games is that they claim to want advice - but then take down any posts that they personally don't like. What happens is that eventually a couple of guys seem to be the only ones getting listened too (and said guys ideas often suck.)

Originally posted by Realm-Reaper

Originally posted by Warmaker

HAHAHAHA!!!!  Is this one of those threads that blame the failure of a game on the shoulders of players and forums?

News flash:  MMOs fail because they're crap and / or there are issues with the developers.

Bad games and bad dev teams will fail, and having forums or not will not prevent it.

What not having official forums will do is it prevents a central meeting place for your PLAYERS, i.e. PAYING CUSTOMERS to congragate at.  You know, like minds getting together to share a common theme or goal.

Warhammer Online currently has no official forums.  It's doing well, yes, but IMO, the players are splintered off with a piss-poor sense of community.  Same thing I saw with Guild Wars.  Both have no official forums.

If your game is good, then have no worries about official forums.

If your game is bad, then having forums or not will not matter.  You won't be able to hide for much longer how craptastic your game is.

 

UMMMM...

NEVER said Official Forums cause games to "FAIL". Go back and read the post.

K-THX!

Well, actually what you said is that forums tear the online game community apart.  Are you suggeting now that you can have a succesful game with a torn apart community?  That seems like a contradiction to me.
 

Even if we stick with the apparent suggestion that a game can succeed with a fragmented community, I've seen very healthy forum communities that add to the game, when the game is made well and players and devs work together with an attitude of mutual respect.

What you seem to be suggesting is that allowing communication ruins online communities.  That kind of seems like saying that turning off the news will make the world a better place.  I kind of wish that was true, but I don't think it is.

Originally posted by Tzimiscechi

 

From my experience, most forums are messes. It often breaks down into the mods and the mods friends talking to each other.

But what really pisses me off about most official forums for games is that they claim to want advice - but then take down any posts that they personally don't like. What happens is that eventually a couple of guys seem to be the only ones getting listened too (and said guys ideas often suck.)

 

Lol, where have I seen that before :)

Originally posted by Battleskar

Originally posted by firefly2003

Omg, its not being called KOTOR for frakkin sakes it being called THE OLD REPUBLIC which can take place from any time from KOTOR to the end of the REPUBLIC during the Clone Wars and the rise of the EMPIRE BEGAN....with all the craze about Lucas liking the Clone Wars it may be about the Clone Wars instead....I mean a new animated Clone Wars Movie and a live action TV show next year taking place after the Clone Wars filling in the 20 yr gap from Episode III to a New Hope. I wish people would stop calling it KOTOR though...cause its been reported thats its not even being called that...

 

I agree from what I have read from reliable sources is that they are making a Kotor 3,but its not a mmo,its another console rpg. Now for the new Star Wars MMo,I heard it is The Clone Wars Online and makes more sense to me for them to go this route.

that would be awesome, I love the kotor series and would hate for the series to be ruined by a mmo.

similar to what blizzard did with my beloved WC rts franchise.

i think they should open teh forums late, lke wait 3-4 months when people know whether the game is for them or not, and then open forums. The crap that gets said on forums in the beginning is incredible.

My view on Official Forums are that they are an absolute MUST as they:

1) Helps communication between Devs and Players - i.e. any changes that need to be made or important information exchanges.

2) Helps build a decent community spirit - early SWG for example - just need decent mods who will put an end to trolling sharpish - yet understand what free speach is :P (hard to accomplish but doable)

3) Look at WARs realease and don't tell me there was a butt load of confusion as no one really knew where to get information from - or players were getting pissy as info was posted on a number of diff forums at different points in time and there was no real synergy.

4) "newly realeased mmos destroyed by the forums" - absolute w*nk! Recent games have been nothing but rubbish - WAR was meant to be innovative, new, fun - sadly was none of these things was actually buggy as hell, and lacked a decent 'hook'

AoC promised a bucket load of features i.e. sieges - this was never implemented, infact only just has but there is hardly anyone around to take part! lol the drama

Vanguard - what more can I say - SOE anyone?

I think this game needs forums for it to grow and flourish, that being said yes forums will accelerate its destruction if its a load of crap...probably not a bad thing as I would rather save my 10 quid a month if thats the case - just gotta hope for a decent Star Wars game ^^

any company that spends millions making a game and then won't pay for a forum will not get my money. centralized forums are important for many reasons. mostly because customers should feel the company cares enough to have their own forums so they can have some interaction with the dev team. even when it's childish bickering, trolling, and complaints. besides it's better to have the troublemakers on one forum instead of all over the internets.

If I remember rightly, Vanguard didn't have an official forum at the start.  Sigil spouted crap how it helps affiliates make communities.   And it was HELL trying to get coherent details directly from the devs on anything. I suspect that the many WAR forums are too.  So when the official Vanguard forums went live, people started to actually SEE the devs responding (that is, when they did) rather than hearing it "third hand".    

AOC's forums are heaven compared to the likes of WoW.  However AOC's forums are far from perfect.  The EU forums are actually quite respectful because they are moderated properly (some would say almost too much).  But it's had the desired effect. 

Official forums keep all the essential information from the devs in one place.  People can discuss things as a much larger community rather than in "splinter" forum groups, locked away in the darkest recesses of the net. 

Perpectually generating hate and anger, growing and growing.......until it reaches near boiling point......Its members lashing out at people who come near or who try to give a different point of view....

Oh....

 I can see the whiney posts now. "Bioware equals Maleware". Or  "omg , omg, omg! I can't roleplay under  this amount of preasure in the middle of a PvP zone".  

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Originally posted by Realm-Reaper

Originally posted by Warmaker

HAHAHAHA!!!!  Is this one of those threads that blame the failure of a game on the shoulders of players and forums?

News flash:  MMOs fail because they're crap and / or there are issues with the developers.

Bad games and bad dev teams will fail, and having forums or not will not prevent it.

What not having official forums will do is it prevents a central meeting place for your PLAYERS, i.e. PAYING CUSTOMERS to congragate at.  You know, like minds getting together to share a common theme or goal.

Warhammer Online currently has no official forums.  It's doing well, yes, but IMO, the players are splintered off with a piss-poor sense of community.  Same thing I saw with Guild Wars.  Both have no official forums.

If your game is good, then have no worries about official forums.

If your game is bad, then having forums or not will not matter.  You won't be able to hide for much longer how craptastic your game is.

 

UMMMM...

NEVER said Official Forums cause games to "FAIL". Go back and read the post.

K-THX!

Well, actually what you said is that forums tear the online game community apart.  Are you suggeting now that you can have a succesful game with a torn apart community?  That seems like a contradiction to me.
 

Even if we stick with the apparent suggestion that a game can succeed with a fragmented community, I've seen very healthy forum communities that add to the game, when the game is made well and players and devs work together with an attitude of mutual respect.

What you seem to be suggesting is that allowing communication ruins online communities.  That kind of seems like saying that turning off the news will make the world a better place.  I kind of wish that was true, but I don't think it is.

NO!

What I am saying is that between the Fanboi and Troll agenda, the Community suffers. The bottom line is that people that DO NOT have the best interest of the game at Heart, break into the Official Forums and engage in behaviors that gives the game a bad name. Giving these people Offiicial Forums, gives them access to a stage they simply don't deserve. These people abuse the system to amuse themselves. They do it not to make the game better, but because they are Bored at the moment.

Official Forums are nothing more than Battlegrounds for Trolls and Fanbois...These days it does more harm than good.                                  

Just make it so you cant enter the forums unless you are a paying customer.  I totaly agree with having official forums for your game it just helps the community help each other.  New people can get questions answered easier about classes, quests, zones, and mobs, Devs dont have to go searching for players opinions, or ideas about the game, or maybe ideas that players might have to help improve the game.

All MMO's should have official forums

The only official forums I have ever been a part of were Age of Conan's, and that was because since I was in the beta I wanted to see the technical issues that were already known so I didn't waste the devs time with bug reports they already had a thousand complaints about. At first I didn't pay any attention to the troll threads, but after a while I began to agree with what they were saying about the game.

Now did I end up disliking the game because the forum made me focus on the bad to the point where I lost track of the good? It certainly played a part in it.

I don't think the devs can get anything really constructive out of a mess like that, since they would have to dig thier way through a pile of incoherent ranting to get to anything even slightly useful. Nerf this, change that, this sucks, you suck, your mom sucks...it's just worthless.

They just need to play the game themselves and make thier decisions based on thier own expiriences. It's impossible to satisfy everyone, so why bother to listen to them all argue about it?