Levels should be there. There has to be something in which the player sees how strong he is in numerical form. Though average max level time shud be round 1-2 mos but i guess the game shud be interesting enuf to hold u that far

some ppl race to endgame cause of raiding/pvp.. actually i quite enjoy grinding games cause they are hard if u keep out of the item mall (nice challenge :D) and i just mostly enjoy trying to make money to get that expensive item u want sooo bad :>

I don't ever want to max out my character and want to keep on evolving him in his skills like with the systems EVe and SWG placed, only not time or grind based.

I don't care for the hard set upper limit of games. Why should there only be 40 or 60 or 80 levels? Why shouldn't I be able to improve my character and strive for something for as long as I care to play a game? As it is in a game like, say, Warhammer, you hit level 40. You hit your max renown level. Maybe your guild level. You've gone through the quests. So you reroll once or twice to experience slightly different classes and characters . . . and now you're ready to move on to a new game.

As it is with MMORPGs (except EVE-Online) - once you hit the max level, there's not much point to continuing. It's like playing pac-man without any ghosts in the maze.

And I don't mind getting rid of levels entirely. How about having stats and abilities that you can obtain and improve and leave it at that? EVE-Online doesn't have levels. I like that. I'd like to see a traditional MMORPG go without them, too. I don't care if I'm Level umpteen hundred. What I care about is how powerful my tanking ability is. Or my healing. Or my capability for resurrecting people. Or my speed. Or my total knowledge. If you want to formulate some sort of tally of all those things combined that gives some general reference to my "age" or "level" without calling it a level (or simply saying I'm 27 or something), then that's good too. Perhaps just say "I have 8 million skill points"?

That's a big hurdle I have with MMORPGs. The more I play, the closer I see myself getting to the end of the experience. And unless you have OCD, there's not much point in doing it over and over and over. Or staying on the same character that is already maxed out. And I don't really care about your RvR or battlegrounds or whatever the hell you want to call them in a game. In the long run, they have little effect on anything. They always get reset or balanced out so everyone gets a little control now and then... and since they usually only impact some abilities by percentages, then all that work only goes to serve the lower level players who are running about doing the rest of the game.

One thing is clear from this thread.  A lot of people are just posting their opinion without any intention of changing their own belief. 

For myself I find that leveling isn't always fun, but I find that the so called "endgame" is mind numbingly boring in comparison.  I'm amazed that people will say WoWs leveling content is boring, but find that it is fun PvPing or raiding over and over with no or little progression in the same exact areas.  Yeah thats a lot more fun then doing quests and moving around to a lot of different areas.  To me "endgame" has always been a joke.  It's a gimik to keep people playing the game when the content runs out.  In truth the "endgame" is just that.  It's the end of the game.  Stop playing and find something new to play or reroll.

Originally posted by Z3R01

Why does a game need levels?

Did you know in Eve and Ryzom noone has ever gotten to the highest skill level.

I believe Ryzom has 30,000+ skill levels

There really is no difference in what you do or how you do it beween levels and skill levels.  It's the same thing with different words.

Skill may let you choose your skills but again you do the exact same thing, the exact same way to get higher and better at them.

Venge Sunsoar

5hrs a day - casual ?  We dont have the same definition of casual.  5hrs a day for me is HARDCORE.  I consider myself a casual player and i play 1-2 hrs max per day.

As true as it is in real life if you are given everything in life where you dont have to work for it you wont appreciate as much as if you did put forth effort.Video games are no exception.Hence why the MMORPG genre seems like it is stale.All these new games come out like Aoc and such that had so much promise but it ruins it.Game mechanics like instancing also ruin it but that is another story

Originally posted by Z3R01

Why does a game need levels?

Did you know in Eve and Ryzom noone has ever gotten to the highest skill level.

I believe Ryzom has 30,000+ skill levels

Why does a game need skill levels?

It's the same thing basically. You get more powerful. You think changing levels to skills really makes such a huge difference? I don't.

I think about 6 months is good.

Originally posted by gillvane1

Originally posted by Z3R01

Why does a game need levels?

Did you know in Eve and Ryzom noone has ever gotten to the highest skill level.

I believe Ryzom has 30,000+ skill levels

 

Why does a game need skill levels?

 

It's the same thing basically. You get more powerful. You think changing levels to skills really makes such a huge difference? I don't.

 

I think about 6 months is good.

 

A skill level just adds another headache to teh gamer. And 6 months is very challenging for most games out there.

I don't like the idea of a max level.  If the game companies insist on a max level at least make the xp requirements on the last few grow exponentionally.  This whole fascination with "end game" is getting really carried away.  The majority of MMORPG games that I've played, I've quit shortly after reaching max level.  The content along the way is what matters, it shouldn't be a race.  I've always thought of a RPG game to be about character development, skill progression and aquiring fame and fortune.

A way to ensure that there is no level max is some form of  decay/aging mechanics...not like Fable..where only your character ages and quickly (unless you donated at the temple)..but npcs as well.  You could pass your belongings down to alt/relatives/friends after natural death...of course they won't be able to use them until suitable experience is accrued....I don't know...I'm sure this would be difficult to implement but still fun.

i think the whole lvling up thing is overused.. and meaningless. because there is so many outher ways of making a player learn how to play there character.. and as seen every day.. just because a character is lvl ?? dosnt mean he acturly is a lvl ?? player, with all these power lvl services around..

i think max should be equal to the amount of contets in the game, if you have to grind, than there is to many lvls.   i really dont see the point of having lvls just to have lvls..

an aging mechanism would also reduce motivation for addiction and powerleveling services...Since...the longer you grind/ play without log off...the faster "time" passes and your character ages...eventually to die a natural death. All the gear would be useless for that character...and if BoP,,,then others as well. The exception would be for the next generation of that character...which would have to level up to use the formers equip...but by that time...most of the items would decay to near uselessness. The way to maintain interest to play is for characters made as descendants of the original toon,,,are allowed to inherit only items labeled as Heirlooms...extremely rare.

Originally posted by snoop101

Im asking this because it just seems that some people want to be at the end game in a matter of a week. I look at the adventure and leveling as something that you slowely grow which takes longer. You need to feel that you accomplished something.

 

I could handle ANY max level as long as there is enough content added to every level.I have yet to see a developer that can pull off even GOOD content for 50 levels.Originally it took a VERY long time to reach max level in FFXI,witch was 50.Once all the game info hit the websites and there was high elvels to hold the little kiddies hands it soon became a ton easier to level also.

The other part is that if you truly want to enjoy the WHOLE game at EVERY level,then it takes time to farm for your best gear you can wear at each level.Then the game has to make EACH level last a VERY long time so that you don't outgrow your gear and make that huge effort it took to get it a waste.

I think most players are about BRAGGING that is why they want to hit straight for end game level,and spend every minute of there life attaining the highest /best gear in the game.I don't believe in the end game ideas that games are using.Games should NOT have an END game,it should instead entice you to go back and play again as another class/job with several rewards for doing so.

I think the whole idea of instances and end gaming should be done when you play your next class/job at level 1+,that way you can utilize ALL that you have learned all over and it does not become a thing of the past,as you spend everyday in max level instances.You could do like FFXI does and earn your sub class the second go around and not at level 15,like it is now.Everytime you go back to start another class it keeps the entire game looking busy and not just the end game levels.It could also open up new instances and gear for your  lower levels ,each time you play another class/job.The WHOLE game would benefit making noob zones look busy for new players and yet ALWAYS give vets more to do instead of end game gear instances,witch equals...boooring.

Gaming also NEEDS a lot more death penalties,otherwise it becomes nothing more than grinding for XP.The game needs to make reasons for players do do other things than JUST grind for XP,by that i don't mean questing that sends you from point A to point B.Something like earning teleports or Chocobo raising so you have a faster means of travel.

Why is there a need for levels? Sorry but I like skilled based mechanics better :)

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i don't really see the need at all for levels, there are other and better ways to solve character development.

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I agree.

And 5 hrs/day casual I think is more semi-hardcore personally.

Oops forgot to answer the question:

How long it should take?

The gameplay is good enough- see GunzOnline as an almost example and doesn't really matter. But, if you're doing zillions of collect x/y quests for instance, and not really doing much different other than fighting little-bit-bigger-mobs with little-bit-better-abilities getting little-bit-better-items then naturally a fast rate is much more preferable imo.

Originally posted by SgtFrog

i dont really care if it takes years. what matter is the content inbetween.

yeah I agree here as long as I have content to play through I don't care how long end game takes.

Originally posted by Aguitha

5hrs a day - casual ?  We dont have the same definition of casual.  5hrs a day for me is HARDCORE.  I consider myself a casual player and i play 1-2 hrs max per day.

I was thinkin the exact same thing. Ppl with a real life, ya know crazy things like a g/f,b/f or a spouse, a family n a real job doubfully casually kill 5 hrs a day on a game.

As to the OP...I don't need to lvl to feel I accomplished something. If I have fun playing the game and forget about lvling that is most important. The game should be fun from level 1 to the endlevel. Not just the mindless grind we are facing in most games.

Ok so I used 5hr/day as a reference point. Obviously if you play for 2 1/2 hours/day you can then double what time you think it should take. If that makes sense.

I see a lot of people on here arent so into how long it takes but "the journey" which I think a lot of people are missing now a days. Warhammer to me makes you feel like you are in a war from level 1 and theres so much to do each level. Yet theres still people that complain that there not at 40 yet and its been out for such a small amount of time. On the other hand after playing Wow it feels like if your not 70 your a nothing and its so boring leveling up because no one runs nothing anymore. So you race to 70 so you can play the game. I enjoy warhammer WAY more then I ever did in Wow and hope that more MMO's push towards this "journey style". On a side not I love Vanguards leveling also, but in a different way. I feel that Vanguard has so much that you spend a lot of time exploring different things. I never once felt in vanguard that I "have" to race to end game.