A tactic is a conceptual action used by a military unit of no larger than a division to implement a specific mission and achieve a specific objective, or to advance toward a specific goal. A tactic is implemented as one or more tasks. These concepts can be defined as a hierarchy:

* Strategy
* Operational objective
* Tactic
* Task
(...)

The level of war at which battles and engagements are planned and executed to accomplish military objectives assigned to tactical units or task forces. Activities at this level focus on the ordered arrangement and maneuver of combat elements in relation to each other and to the enemy to achieve combat objectives.

----------------------------------------

(source: wikipedia)

So basically, what statement am I trying to make here?

- You guys that say WAR has nothing to do with skill do not (at all) know what this game is capable of.

Why is this?

- Because Mythic took out heavy CC, stealth and many other ladidadi-if-then-else abilities, additionally, gear does not matter that much and is quite easy to obtain. This leads to the "equality in zerg" phenomenon and the "1 on 1 has no winners" phenomenon. In zergs with equal amounts of players at the end, most of the people are dead, which is mainly like it would be in a real life encounter (hooligans beating each other up, everyone ends up with a bloody nose).

So, people get their asses handed to them if they wanna do the conan the barbarian show and storm into 3 enemy players.

Reaction: Anger, frustration, blaming the game for not holding the opportunity to involve skill and tactics.

Error: See above. The term tactical - in real war - is first and foremost, a team-oriented characteristic. in WAR, efficiency can be greatly improved if people work as a team. Don't assume you as an individual are worth anything alone, Mythic stated in the past that two people will beat up 1 player almost any time on equal levels.

Conclusion: Don't expect this to be WoW, where overall tactical decisions stopped at "group 1 go mine" or "you go bridge I go tunnel". WAR may not look like it at a first glance, but the more you progress in RvR the more you NEED a team to survive and be successful. No go get yourself people, do your duty and join the friggin ARMY (of WAR)!

M

Originally posted by Meridion

A tactic is a conceptual action used by a military unit of no larger than a division to implement a specific mission and achieve a specific objective, or to advance toward a specific goal. A tactic is implemented as one or more tasks. These concepts can be defined as a hierarchy:

* Strategy
* Operational objective
* Tactic
* Task
(...)

The level of war at which battles and engagements are planned and executed to accomplish military objectives assigned to tactical units or task forces. Activities at this level focus on the ordered arrangement and maneuver of combat elements in relation to each other and to the enemy to achieve combat objectives.

 

----------------------------------------

(source: wikipedia)

 

So basically, what statement am I trying to make here?

- You guys that say WAR has nothing to do with skill do not (at all) know what this game is capable of.

 

 

- Because Mythic took out heavy CC, stealth and many other ladidadi-if-then-else abilities, additionally, gear does not matter that much and is quite easy to obtain. This leads to the "equality in zerg" phenomenon and the "1 on 1 has no winners" phenomenon. In zergs with equal amounts of players at the end, most of the people are dead, which is mainly like it would be in a real life encounter (hooligans beating each other up, everyone ends up with a bloody nose).

So, people get their asses handed to them if they wanna do the conan the barbarian show and storm into 3 enemy players.

Reaction: Anger, frustration, blaming the game for not holding the opportunity to involve skill and tactics.

Error: See above. The term tactical - in real war - is first and foremost, a team-oriented characteristic. in WAR, efficiency can be greatly improved if people work as a team. Don't assume you as an individual are worth anything alone, Mythic stated in the past that two people will beat up 1 player almost any time on equal levels.

Conclusion: Don't expect this to be WoW, where overall tactical decisions stopped at "group 1 go mine" or "you go bridge I go tunnel". WAR may not look like it at a first glance, but the more you progress in RvR the more you NEED a team to survive and be successful. No go get yourself people, do your duty and join the friggin ARMY (of WAR)!

M

 

Why is this?

I agree.  And I know there will be tons of flames from kiddies that think otherwise, but you are completely able to use tactics in this game.. just most people don't because they don't know where to begin.

For instance, bodyblocking is a must for anyone thinking of tactical behavior.  Crowding a flag carrier or item holder in scenarios.  Blocking off a route to a fleeing enemy healer. Running in front of a witch elf chasing your healer, these are all things you should keep in mind as part of tactical combat. 

Not to mention LEARN your SKILLS and PLAY as a TEAM.  There is absolutely no way you an win by going Rambo.  A player alone is worthless in RVR or Scenarios.  If anything find a buddy.  A good 2 man mix can increase survivability by 30%, 50% if you've got a good healer instead of another damage class.

Also, like I said know what skills assist in keeping you alive, and what keeps your teammates alive.. assess the situation and protect the most vulnerable.

Just some thoughts.

Sounds great in theory except that

1.  RvR is totally about numbers.   Tactics won't help you win when you are vastly outnumbered, and there is no time/need for tactics when you are steamrolling.  The vast majority of RvR battles are so lopsided that nobody even bothers with 'tactics'.   On the rare occasion that you do end up with an even match, by the time you do realize tactics could help, things are so chaotic that it's hard to put anything into action... it's like trying to 'outflank' your opponent after all your troops are already in a big cluster in the middle of the field.

2. Scenarios are so small and fast that again.. simply 'zerging' is the best tactic.

You can theorize all you want, but if you actually played the game you'd see the majority of battles/scenarios require no tactics, which is why nobody bothers with them.  It doesn't help that the chat system is terrible.

QFT,

WAR is all about tactics, my guild uses them all the time, be it something simple like blocking stairs in a keep or a doorway, or using a couple of healers as bait to draw a few of the opposing players in other warbands in for a trap.

Any uneducated person is going to flame though, because WoW is full of kids who have never had to use tactics because of the MMO easy button (WoW) is all they know.

Now I do see alot of destro on my server zerg with warbands and even in one instance we had 15 defending a keep against an army of roughly 70 players, whom got destroyed and eventually they gave up. guess what? im gonna guess they had no coordinated tactics while we did. entertaining to watch and be a part of.

Im certain that some people who say this game has no skill are strictly referring to 1 on 1 combat. becaues to be successful with a group you need tactics (not just the kind for your standard you can haul around either)

Originally posted by Azrile

Sounds great in theory except that

1.  RvR is totally about numbers.   Tactics won't help you win when you are vastly outnumbered, and there is no time/need for tactics when you are steamrolling.  The vast majority of RvR battles are so lopsided that nobody even bothers with 'tactics'.   On the rare occasion that you do end up with an even match, by the time you do realize tactics could help, things are so chaotic that it's hard to put anything into action... it's like trying to 'outflank' your opponent after all your troops are already in a big cluster in the middle of the field.

2. Scenarios are so small and fast that again.. simply 'zerging' is the best tactic.

You can theorize all you want, but if you actually played the game you'd see the majority of battles/scenarios require no tactics, which is why nobody bothers with them.  It doesn't help that the chat system is terrible.

It's not theory.  Guilds and Alliances working as a team are defeating people not doing it.  I dont expect anyone not doing it, to understand it, although.  So I do understand that you just don't believe it.

Some tactic.  If people would learn to kill the healers first...

---

Originally posted by Keeper2000
It's not theory.  Guilds and Alliances working as a team are defeating people not doing it.

---

Correlation is not causation.

Originally posted by Azrile

Sounds great in theory except that

1.  RvR is totally about numbers.   Tactics won't help you win when you are vastly outnumbered, and there is no time/need for tactics when you are steamrolling.  The vast majority of RvR battles are so lopsided that nobody even bothers with 'tactics'.   On the rare occasion that you do end up with an even match, by the time you do realize tactics could help, things are so chaotic that it's hard to put anything into action... it's like trying to 'outflank' your opponent after all your troops are already in a big cluster in the middle of the field.

2. Scenarios are so small and fast that again.. simply 'zerging' is the best tactic.

You can theorize all you want, but if you actually played the game you'd see the majority of battles/scenarios require no tactics, which is why nobody bothers with them.  It doesn't help that the chat system is terrible.

At point 1:

Not entirely correct numbers do not always win and actually so far in keep defense my rather small guild never has more then 15 players available to defend a keep, and have defended against larger groups successfully 9 times (we lost 1 though because the other side was organized rather well, props to them!)
 

At point 2:

Scenarios at T1 do not require tactics much, T2 However with even just a guild group (1 group in scenarios) we coordinate ourselves and still overcome the enemy without the lame Zerg mentality.

Zergs are easily destroyed if the opposing side has good communications ( which yes I agree the chat system doesnt help) but a good VOIP will easily fix this no problem. To many people think that a zerg will work, and actually vs PVE they do but not on PVP with a coordinated group.

Didn't WOW have organized groups who would fight PUGs in those BG(?). 

Originally posted by Azrile

Sounds great in theory except that

1.  RvR is totally about numbers.   Tactics won't help you win when you are vastly outnumbered, and there is no time/need for tactics when you are steamrolling.  The vast majority of RvR battles are so lopsided that nobody even bothers with 'tactics'.   On the rare occasion that you do end up with an even match, by the time you do realize tactics could help, things are so chaotic that it's hard to put anything into action... it's like trying to 'outflank' your opponent after all your troops are already in a big cluster in the middle of the field.

2. Scenarios are so small and fast that again.. simply 'zerging' is the best tactic.

You can theorize all you want, but if you actually played the game you'd see the majority of battles/scenarios require no tactics, which is why nobody bothers with them.  It doesn't help that the chat system is terrible.

While this can hold true for large disadvantages in numbers, you can compensate a LOT of people by tactical decisions.

This starts with simple things like assigning a 4 man force to constantly attack areas or objectives with siege weapons, like the oil or the enemy turret slots and it goes on with stealth teams systematically hacking healers to pieces just in the moment the tanks and ranged DPS storm the show.

This is not "sophisticated crap inferior to a good zerg-stampede". This works, every time, like a clockwork, because you don't need to be a strategic mastermind to realize that 3 runepriests being engaged by 2 witchelfs can no longer heal anybody but themselves for at least 30 seconds. More than enough time for the rest to take down the enemy DPS and engage the tanks.

This is very low level stuff actually, it's easy as cake to do if you communicate, you don't need to be in the military or some strange strategy enthusiast to make this up. And it raises efficiency by hundreds of percent.

M

EDIT Oh and yes, if theres a random group zerg in a keep and one outside and they are ... well, zerging, sure, numbers are all that matters, I said this before. But let 8 of my alliance mates hold the keep and we defend it against 32, and i _mean_ 32 because we've done it, multiple times.

Originally posted by Aethios

 

---

Originally posted by Keeper2000
It's not theory.  Guilds and Alliances working as a team are defeating people not doing it.

---

 

Correlation is not causation.

LOL But correlation MAY indicate causation.

Organized guilds/alliances are defeating higher numbers of opponets.  They are actually defeating zergs.  So come up with a better explanation of why these guys are better that doesnt explain it by zerging becuase they are NOT zerging... they are taking keeps with zergs in them and rolling over zergs int he open rvr.

I saw it done several times, I saw it done to me serveral times already and I did it several times with my guildies.

So as long as you cant prove his theory worng, his theory is valid to explain it.

And you theory fo zerging is the most important thing has proven incorrectly to me.

So I repeat it: for me, its a fact that tactics > zerging.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Didn't WOW have organized groups who would fight PUGs in those BG(?). 

The problem in WoW was the lack of real goals, in Alterac you could zerg the whole BG, because it was mainly a PvE instance with enemy players. In Warsong the healer and the rogues carried the flags, while the rest bashed heads no need for larger tactical decisions and Arathi basin, well, this was the only one that required a minimum of human resource management to be successful.

Still, all BGs, like the scenarios in WAR, are just nice little minigames to level or do something different. World RvR is the meat! WoW does not have this, at all...

M

I agree with OP completely...

I'm a long-time warnerd and I enjoy WAR immensely. Precisely because of the things mentioned in the OP.

Whether I'm leading a warband or just following orders I get a real sense of satisfaction when we beat an opponent superior in numbers through smart group play and tactics.

Yes, flanking attacks work in this game.

Strategic diversions are a joy - get a good warband and pretend you're attacking one keep.. then at the pre-arranged moment strike with the whole warband on a completely different front.

In keep defense get a band of people ressing at the warcamp and tell them to assemble as a group.. wait till the attackers break into the lord's room and then rush them cohesively from behind for a complete wipe.

Beautiful. Just beautiful.

This early on not many understand the need for tactics in the game. they have all come from games where it didnt matter. Its hard to break that mindset and teach them that we can only win as a team and all this lone ranger BS will simply not work here.

I have been constantly starting off each Scenario by telling everyone to stick together and which flags are worth holding and which to let fall as well as the importance of killing the healers before engaging the tanks. unfortunately at this stage very few are willing to listen and they charge off by themselves into a group of enemies to die all the while screaming heal and then telling everyone else that they are the ones who suck because we lost.

 You can make up tactics and formations in Pac-Man.. doesn't mean it is MEANT to have that.

WAR has no built-in function either to settle tactics and strategies.

Why?

Because there's NO need for them to decide WHO WINS in one skirmish !!! There's no final finesse evalutation, it doesn't matter what you do.

Besides, people don't CARE, they wanna farm on their fame.

Originally posted by Meridion

A tactic is a conceptual action used by a military unit of no larger than a division to implement a specific mission and achieve a specific objective, or to advance toward a specific goal. A tactic is implemented as one or more tasks. These concepts can be defined as a hierarchy:

* Strategy
* Operational objective
* Tactic
* Task
(...)

The level of war at which battles and engagements are planned and executed to accomplish military objectives assigned to tactical units or task forces. Activities at this level focus on the ordered arrangement and maneuver of combat elements in relation to each other and to the enemy to achieve combat objectives.

 

----------------------------------------

(source: wikipedia)

 

So basically, what statement am I trying to make here?

- You guys that say WAR has nothing to do with skill do not (at all) know what this game is capable of.

 

 

- Because Mythic took out heavy CC, stealth and many other ladidadi-if-then-else abilities, additionally, gear does not matter that much and is quite easy to obtain. This leads to the "equality in zerg" phenomenon and the "1 on 1 has no winners" phenomenon. In zergs with equal amounts of players at the end, most of the people are dead, which is mainly like it would be in a real life encounter (hooligans beating each other up, everyone ends up with a bloody nose).

So, people get their asses handed to them if they wanna do the conan the barbarian show and storm into 3 enemy players.

Reaction: Anger, frustration, blaming the game for not holding the opportunity to involve skill and tactics.

Error: See above. The term tactical - in real war - is first and foremost, a team-oriented characteristic. in WAR, efficiency can be greatly improved if people work as a team. Don't assume you as an individual are worth anything alone, Mythic stated in the past that two people will beat up 1 player almost any time on equal levels.

Conclusion: Don't expect this to be WoW, where overall tactical decisions stopped at "group 1 go mine" or "you go bridge I go tunnel". WAR may not look like it at a first glance, but the more you progress in RvR the more you NEED a team to survive and be successful. No go get yourself people, do your duty and join the friggin ARMY (of WAR)!

M

 

Why is this?

I don't think you understand the difference between tactics and strategy. STrategy is your overal approach to a situation. In war and wow, the strategy is pretty much laid out for you, capture A, capture B, etc....all the player decides is the order.
 

Tactics on the other hand are short term changes that involve the overall goal. For example attacking healers first....etc.

With that in mind, I find that war and wow have equal strategy but wow has better tactics, considering that its faster paced and more things can happen in a shorter amount of time then the slower WAR, which is pretty much monkey see monkey do considering you live for 15 minute safter engaging an enemy. At that point its luck, whoever gets more friends on the other one.

Finaly, wow has stealth and no rogue can take out 3 players at once, so i don't think stealth has anything to do with it really. 

Overall i think you are excited about war and I am happy you like it, however for me, i found wow more mentally engaging.

Originally posted by Azrile

Sounds great in theory except that

1.  RvR is totally about numbers.   Tactics won't help you win when you are vastly outnumbered, and there is no time/need for tactics when you are steamrolling.  The vast majority of RvR battles are so lopsided that nobody even bothers with 'tactics'.   On the rare occasion that you do end up with an even match, by the time you do realize tactics could help, things are so chaotic that it's hard to put anything into action... it's like trying to 'outflank' your opponent after all your troops are already in a big cluster in the middle of the field.

2. Scenarios are so small and fast that again.. simply 'zerging' is the best tactic.

You can theorize all you want, but if you actually played the game you'd see the majority of battles/scenarios require no tactics, which is why nobody bothers with them.  It doesn't help that the chat system is terrible.

QFT

I second that

And that s why WAR fails, since there is no reason to make tactics in PvP, which would be the fun bit of the game, and considering the PvE is totally irrelevant, the conclusion is that this game don't offer a "long term" fun factor.

It might be fun today or in 1 month, but after 3 months I find it difficult to believe that people will enjoy this kind of game.

yes very tactical. you know how many times i have been blocked from getting the healer. i love the collision detection.

Originally posted by medafor

yes very tactical. you know how many times i have been blocked from getting the healer. i love the collision detection.

I like the CD too however it is pretty disheartening that you can pretty much jump over or push through anyone who is blocking you. I have never had a tank actually keep me from reaching their healers by blocking my path.

Originally posted by Wow4Lifer

Originally posted by Meridion

A tactic is a conceptual action used by a military unit of no larger than a division to implement a specific mission and achieve a specific objective, or to advance toward a specific goal. A tactic is implemented as one or more tasks. These concepts can be defined as a hierarchy:

* Strategy
* Operational objective
* Tactic
* Task
(...)

The level of war at which battles and engagements are planned and executed to accomplish military objectives assigned to tactical units or task forces. Activities at this level focus on the ordered arrangement and maneuver of combat elements in relation to each other and to the enemy to achieve combat objectives.

 

----------------------------------------

(source: wikipedia)

 

So basically, what statement am I trying to make here?

- You guys that say WAR has nothing to do with skill do not (at all) know what this game is capable of.

 

 

 

- Because Mythic took out heavy CC, stealth and many other ladidadi-if-then-else abilities, additionally, gear does not matter that much and is quite easy to obtain. This leads to the "equality in zerg" phenomenon and the "1 on 1 has no winners" phenomenon. In zergs with equal amounts of players at the end, most of the people are dead, which is mainly like it would be in a real life encounter (hooligans beating each other up, everyone ends up with a bloody nose).

So, people get their asses handed to them if they wanna do the conan the barbarian show and storm into 3 enemy players.

Reaction: Anger, frustration, blaming the game for not holding the opportunity to involve skill and tactics.

Error: See above. The term tactical - in real war - is first and foremost, a team-oriented characteristic. in WAR, efficiency can be greatly improved if people work as a team. Don't assume you as an individual are worth anything alone, Mythic stated in the past that two people will beat up 1 player almost any time on equal levels.

Conclusion: Don't expect this to be WoW, where overall tactical decisions stopped at "group 1 go mine" or "you go bridge I go tunnel". WAR may not look like it at a first glance, but the more you progress in RvR the more you NEED a team to survive and be successful. No go get yourself people, do your duty and join the friggin ARMY (of WAR)!

M

 

 

Why is this?

I don't think you understand the difference between tactics and strategy. STrategy is your overal approach to a situation. In war and wow, the strategy is pretty much laid out for you, capture A, capture B, etc....all the player decides is the order.
 

Tactics on the other hand are short term changes that involve the overall goal. For example attacking healers first....etc.

With that in mind, I find that war and wow have equal strategy but wow has better tactics, considering that its faster paced and more things can happen in a shorter amount of time then the slower WAR, which is pretty much monkey see monkey do considering you live for 15 minute safter engaging an enemy. At that point its luck, whoever gets more friends on the other one.

Finaly, wow has stealth and no rogue can take out 3 players at once, so i don't think stealth has anything to do with it really. 

 

Overall i think you are excited about war and I am happy you like it, however for me, i found wow more mentally engaging.

This.

Also the whole premise of the OP seems to be based on this statement :

"Error: See above. The term tactical - in real war - is first and foremost, a team-oriented characteristic. in WAR, efficiency can be greatly improved if people work as a team. Don't assume you as an individual are worth anything alone, Mythic stated in the past that two people will beat up 1 player almost any time on equal levels. "

Which doesn't compute at all since the same thing is entirely true for WoW as well. A coordinated team -> Random groups/Loners.

As the person above said. Strategy is mostly laid out in both games. I would have given a huge benefit to WAR if they had actually made objectives take longer to capture and travel time be in any way lengthened to where strategic division of forces would actually be an important point but at this point that is simply not true. Strategy of the three tier system is lost due to the fast travel times.