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Developers Corner 

MMORPG Game Concepts  » For the player who misses the original MMORPG design.

19 posts found
  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  10/04/08 10:43:14 AM#1

Friends and I sit around sometimes and talk about MMORPGs and their downfalls. One topic that comes up often is how you can always go back and play that single player game the way you remembered it and it is still the game that made it a hit. This isn't possible with MMORPGs. MMORPGs after being expanded upon lose what made them a hit and become cluttered with garbage.

 

I have never seen a MMORPG not become ruined and stray so far away from what put them on top in the first place. You can't never go back to play that wonderful game, just can't ... unless some company follows my design philosphy. I feel some MMORPGs would retain more players, the ones who dislike what the game has become by always having at least one server that has not been expanded upon. I feel what WoW, EQ1, EQ2, were is far superior to what they have become. If one of these MMORPGs provided me with a server that has not been expanded on to play on, I would still be there.

 

I like the original games, and I dislike what MMORPG developers do to them with expansions. One server that was like this would keep folks like me playing for years to come. 

  starman999

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/03
Posts: 1225

Verd ori''shya beskar''gam

10/04/08 11:10:33 AM#2

That would be great.

 

A "classic" server on each game would be just excellent especially for games that have really strayed far from their original state. If EQ or SWG had one of these I would likely have never left.

Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.

  User Deleted
10/04/08 10:02:04 PM#3

A game designed around a carrot chase will always require more carrots.  Most, if not all MMOS are a carrot chase.

Single player games that are designed so a player can make an outcome that effects the world around him different by making a different choice, class or action has more playability than a game the revolves around the carrot chase.

Designing a real immerse complex MMO "R"OLE'P'LAY G that has the same meanings a single player game is difficult. task.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16678

10/04/08 10:05:06 PM#4

In some cases like SWG it is a good idea but in other cases like EQ2 not so good.

Anyways single player games 5 years + don't have the same feeling for me anymore because I changed I guess, it is probably the same partially with MMOs.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  10/04/08 10:43:43 PM#5
Originally posted by demc

A game designed around a carrot chase will always require more carrots.  Most, if not all MMOS are a carrot chase.

Single player games that are designed so a player can make an outcome that effects the world around him different by making a different choice, class or action has more playability than a game the revolves around the carrot chase.

Designing a real immerse complex MMO "R"OLE'P'LAY G that has the same meanings a single player game is difficult. task.

 

Then there are the players like myself that do not like the way a game changes and do replay old games I have played many times. Not all have different ways I can change the world. I have played the Legend of Zelda many times and I still have to do the same things to win the game. I just like it, it was a great game and still is. I can't say the same about EQ, it isn't the same game anymore. 

My carrot would be making new classes and leveling them or coming up with fun events the guild can do like raid a city or something. That would keep me entertained for a few years. If I took a break from the game, I most definitely would come back many times and play my favorite game again like I do on single player games.

  User Deleted
10/04/08 11:17:39 PM#6
Originally posted by qombi
Originally posted by demc

A game designed around a carrot chase will always require more carrots.  Most, if not all MMOS are a carrot chase.

Single player games that are designed so a player can make an outcome that effects the world around him different by making a different choice, class or action has more playability than a game the revolves around the carrot chase.

Designing a real immerse complex MMO "R"OLE'P'LAY G that has the same meanings a single player game is difficult. task.

 

Then there are the players like myself that do not like the way a game changes and do replay old games I have played many times. Not all have different ways I can change the world. I have played the Legend of Zelda many times and I still have to do the same things to win the game. I just like it, it was a great game and still is. I can't say the same about EQ, it isn't the same game anymore. 

My carrot would be making new classes and leveling them or coming up with fun events the guild can do like raid a city or something. That would keep me entertained for a few years. If I took a break from the game, I most definitely would come back many times and play my favorite game again like I do on single player games.

Zelda is a good single player game but if Zelda were a MMO it would not be the same because it lacks any MULTI in it.

The developers of MMO games target a large audiance of players and most are aimed at endgame raids in PvE or Open warfare in PvP. The PvE side requires constant advancement to keep the players that chase that carrot playing. A game that is pure player content such as Warfare needs to still get a carrot out there to get players to stay so they add content. 

Lets say a developer made a game that had 100 levels and never went beyound that. This game had a world that had roughly 3 million square kilometers of area and 60 major cities and 400 dungeons. How long would a player play before ending up crying for more content? 

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  10/05/08 10:33:28 AM#7
Lets say a developer made a game that had 100 levels and never went beyound that. This game had a world that had roughly 3 million square kilometers of area and 60 major cities and 400 dungeons. How long would a player play before ending up crying for more content? 

 

 

That is what you are missing. My post is about players such as myself that are fine with no additional content. Not all MMORPG players are  the same. I still play a game called Rubies of Eventide which is a MMORPG that hasn't had any content put in for about four years. There are other players there was well still playing and new players that start out all the time. People who play that game like the game for what it is. They either make a new character or just enjoy doing things with their character who has hit the ceiling. I know Zelda isn't a MMORPG but that was an example. Some people like to replay a classic game because it was great. 

I would like to replay Everquest many times because it was great. The people that would cry for more content wouldn't be interested in this one server that would exist, of course they would be on the others where content is continuing being pushed out and the game is constantly being changed into something it never was originally. There would be that one server that keeps people such as myself subscribed to the game as well. It would be about providing options not something that everyone would be interested in. Even though that player that loves content being pushed out constantly may not be interested in playing on this server all the time, they would still have to option to have an additional character in the "classic" world if they chose to. I think some players may like this option. I know a lot who would personally.

Lastly why would this server have to appeal to players that have already played through the content? Would it not be a great way for a new player to the game to get to experience the same magic you did at one point? That is the problem, the great single player game I enjoyed can still be played by new people that never got a chance to when it was released. In MMORPGs that can not happen because the original game does not exist anymore. Face it Everquest and other MMORPGs have changed so much over the years they barely resemble what made them great in the first place.

This new person may choose to play the original game then later experience another server with all the expansion packs. Again it is about options.

  User Deleted
10/05/08 10:59:52 AM#8
Originally posted by qombi
Lets say a developer made a game that had 100 levels and never went beyound that. This game had a world that had roughly 3 million square kilometers of area and 60 major cities and 400 dungeons. How long would a player play before ending up crying for more content? 

 

 

That is what you are missing. My post is about players such as myself that are fine with no additional content. Not all MMORPG players are  the same. I still play a game called Rubies of Eventide which is a MMORPG that hasn't had any content put in for about four years. There are other players there was well still playing and new players that start out all the time. People who play that game like the game for what it is. They either make a new character or just enjoy doing things with their character who has hit the ceiling. I know Zelda isn't a MMORPG but that was an example. Some people like to replay a classic game because it was great. 

I would like to replay Everquest many times because it was great. The people that would cry for more content wouldn't be interested in this one server that would exist, of course they would be on the others where content is continuing being pushed out and the game is constantly being changed into something it never was originally. There would be that one server that keeps people such as myself subscribed to the game as well. It would be about providing options not something that everyone would be interested in. Even though that player that loves content being pushed out constantly may not be interested in playing on this server all the time, they would still have to option to have an additional character in the "classic" world if they chose to. I think some players may like this option. I know a lot who would personally.

Lastly why would this server have to appeal to players that have already played through the content? Would it not be a great way for a new player to the game to get to experience the same magic you did at one point? That is the problem, the great single player game I enjoyed can still be played by new people that never got a chance to when it was released. In MMORPGs that can not happen because the original game does not exist anymore. Face it Everquest and other MMORPGs have changed so much over the years they barely resemble what made them great in the first place.

This new person may choose to play the original game then later experience another server with all the expansion packs. Again it is about options.


 

I am sorry if I came across as missing the point. I do understand your interest in 'orginial' game server. DAoC is putting such a server together IIRC.

Mythic put several ruleset servers up based on player feedback. Maybe other big names will but they are going to be looking at the 'is it worth it?' because to maintain different rulesets means to have different teams to maintain the special rules, databases and updates. It is much more difficult and costly than it looks.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  10/05/08 6:08:24 PM#9
Originally posted by demc
Originally posted by qombi
Lets say a developer made a game that had 100 levels and never went beyound that. This game had a world that had roughly 3 million square kilometers of area and 60 major cities and 400 dungeons. How long would a player play before ending up crying for more content? 

 

 

That is what you are missing. My post is about players such as myself that are fine with no additional content. Not all MMORPG players are  the same. I still play a game called Rubies of Eventide which is a MMORPG that hasn't had any content put in for about four years. There are other players there was well still playing and new players that start out all the time. People who play that game like the game for what it is. They either make a new character or just enjoy doing things with their character who has hit the ceiling. I know Zelda isn't a MMORPG but that was an example. Some people like to replay a classic game because it was great. 

I would like to replay Everquest many times because it was great. The people that would cry for more content wouldn't be interested in this one server that would exist, of course they would be on the others where content is continuing being pushed out and the game is constantly being changed into something it never was originally. There would be that one server that keeps people such as myself subscribed to the game as well. It would be about providing options not something that everyone would be interested in. Even though that player that loves content being pushed out constantly may not be interested in playing on this server all the time, they would still have to option to have an additional character in the "classic" world if they chose to. I think some players may like this option. I know a lot who would personally.

Lastly why would this server have to appeal to players that have already played through the content? Would it not be a great way for a new player to the game to get to experience the same magic you did at one point? That is the problem, the great single player game I enjoyed can still be played by new people that never got a chance to when it was released. In MMORPGs that can not happen because the original game does not exist anymore. Face it Everquest and other MMORPGs have changed so much over the years they barely resemble what made them great in the first place.

This new person may choose to play the original game then later experience another server with all the expansion packs. Again it is about options.


 

I am sorry if I came across as missing the point. I do understand your interest in 'orginial' game server. DAoC is putting such a server together IIRC.

Mythic put several ruleset servers up based on player feedback. Maybe other big names will but they are going to be looking at the 'is it worth it?' because to maintain different rulesets means to have different teams to maintain the special rules, databases and updates. It is much more difficult and costly than it looks.

 

That is no problem. I thought maybe I didn't explain myself well in the first place. I do understand where you are coming from on the cost issue. Hopefully it could be accomplished at a low cost since it would not be updated. I would love to see that server that the only maintenance that happens is a reboot once in a while. I wonder how much it is to maintain that EQMac server? It includes expansions so not exactly what I was suggesting but it is similar to what I think these games need, a static server that has no expansions. It would give the option for new players, old players, and current players to get to experience the original experience once again. 

  nileq

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/08
Posts: 516

10/06/08 6:05:50 AM#10

qombi,

To me it feels like you are looking for a sandbox game.
WoW, EQ and all those games are "themepark games" and by that I mean that the developers is steering you to what you should be doing.

What I mean with "Themepark"
If you are at level 20 in WoW, you cannot enter an area where the mobs are lvl 30 (well you can but you will die). There are quests that guide you along nicely. And your goal is ultimatly to reach "end game". And by "End Game" you constantly kill the same Bosses over, and over again.  There is no compelling reason for you to go back to that level 30 area and have a second look.
In a themepark game, the game designer have set up a spectacular ride for you.

Now most people (yourself excluded) get bored of riding the same ride over and over again, hence the expansionpacks.

Now the Sandbox game
In the sandbox game, you the player help the community to provide the content. There are no "guides" to what to do next. You will just have to join the next raid organized by your guild, OR mabye some guild are organizing a gladiator game? Or you just run one way or the other and se what you find.

And now to the point, since in a sandbox game the Players themselfs "steer" the world and what happens, the designers will not need to expand the game with new rides.

Currently tough there are not many sandbox-games out there (EVE is one) but some are in development Darkfall Online is one.
 

have a good one!


*****************************
I have nothing clever to say.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  10/06/08 7:05:56 PM#11

 Thank you Nileq for the suggestion.  

  wartywarlock

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 114

10/06/08 7:16:47 PM#12

yeah i feel this guy. i hate what wow turned into, bad xpac, bad. to much purple. not enough dragons.

id resub if they simply made a new server with a 60 cap (and kazzak back where he used to be i guess)

which is why i get confused when blizz bang on about old code, maintaning seperate clients etc. no, theres literally no need. everyone agrees the 'client' is better, crashes less, does more wizz bangs etc. the CONTENT was better in vanilla wow. i dont care of your opinion just for me it WAS. and i would pay for it again. so just cap one single server at 60 (really, this ISNT hard) and let people enjoy the old world. hell itd be kinda interesting seeing what people come up with if they still let you into outlands, things could get crazy! just cap me back at 60, with the other few thousands that also want to be 60.

no i dont want to buy a new sub, 'uck off before you even suggest that, its nowhere near the same and still puts me with 70s (80s)

  nileq

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/08
Posts: 516

10/07/08 4:14:24 AM#13

Your welcome qombi, I am eagerly avaiting DFO myself.. head on over to Beta regisration page, beta is schedueld to start any time now..

*****************************
I have nothing clever to say.

  Forcan

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 702

Nov. 15th 2005
my heart died a little...
Long Live SWG(PreCU)

10/07/08 4:29:36 AM#14

I think classic servers are good ideas for some, not so good idea for other.

 

I agree that there are those who love the original design, but then there's the problem of contents.  Yes, there are some who doesn't need extra contents to have fun, but the amount of people are in the minority of the population in MMO.  From a business point of view, it's not profitable to do such, when their design focus is adding more contents for majority of the players.

 

Although this differs by design.  A "story-based" design, depending on the focus of WHO made the story (developers for all story, developers for main story, players for side story, or players for all story.), It would require a different way to "add" contents or update the contents.

 

The first method is the one almost all companies do.  The second (dev for main, players for side) are not so much, and player for all story are almost none-exist.  If I were a producer for MMO, I would do the mixture of the second and third method, where I let the players to develop the story on top of  what I had originally set, and then update/add contents based on result of players' stories.  Of course, I would limited the result into 3 ways:

1.) players made no impact to main story, continue with devs' main story

2.) players made some impact, but not enough to change the main story, keep the impact and modify the main story accordingly

3.) players made major impact to the main story, and change the direction of the story, use new direction for story and push out new contents based on the direction of the story.

 

That's just what I think would work best, but it's beside the point of the original question of classic server.

Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR

Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  10/07/08 7:19:19 AM#15
Originally posted by Forcan

I think classic servers are good ideas for some, not so good idea for other.

 

I agree that there are those who love the original design, but then there's the problem of contents.  Yes, there are some who doesn't need extra contents to have fun, but the amount of people are in the minority of the population in MMO.  From a business point of view, it's not profitable to do such, when their design focus is adding more contents for majority of the players.

 

Although this differs by design.  A "story-based" design, depending on the focus of WHO made the story (developers for all story, developers for main story, players for side story, or players for all story.), It would require a different way to "add" contents or update the contents.

 

The first method is the one almost all companies do.  The second (dev for main, players for side) are not so much, and player for all story are almost none-exist.  If I were a producer for MMO, I would do the mixture of the second and third method, where I let the players to develop the story on top of  what I had originally set, and then update/add contents based on result of players' stories.  Of course, I would limited the result into 3 ways:

1.) players made no impact to main story, continue with devs' main story

2.) players made some impact, but not enough to change the main story, keep the impact and modify the main story accordingly

3.) players made major impact to the main story, and change the direction of the story, use new direction for story and push out new contents based on the direction of the story.

 

That's just what I think would work best, but it's beside the point of the original question of classic server.

 

I do enjoy the points you have brought up. I also think one "classic" server would be good for the companies as well though. I don't think it would be about keeping those folks interested that want more content. I think it would be about grabbing those additional folks that would not be subscribed if they did not have this option such as myself.

Diablo 2

which has a multiplayer option online still has players playing it and it does not have new content. DAOC released classic servers of some sort  that I am aware of and have a pretty large following. I think there may be enough interest to provide these type of server options in the future for gamers that do not like what the games become after an amount of time.

I also think there would be room for game design such as you mentioned as well. We the gamers would all benefit from more options.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  10/11/08 6:07:38 PM#16

I was thinking about the benefit as well of having one or two classic servers for the popular MMORPGs for players new to the game. They could play on these servers if they want the original experience and when reaching top they could either stay put or pay for a transfer to a progressing server.

A few MMORPGs that I would subscribe again to if they offered this type of server would be Everquest, World of Warcraft (I enjoyed the original ), Star Wars Galaxy, and last but not least Ultima Online!

 

I would love this optional server! It wouldn't require updates, they could choose the patch to stop it at and just let it stay static. It may bring in old players for them and new players as well. There is always the option for future character transfers. I gaurantee it would always have a healthy population as long as the game is going. Look at the EQMac server, even it is expanded upon and is on a macintosh client and still has a decent little population. Look at DAOC and which servers are the most popular. There is evidence of these servers working.

 

If they are worried it would effect people buying expansion packs, I don't think that would be the case. I know I would have one character on the progressive servers in some cases and one  on the classic at the same time. I would still be buying expansions.

  Vindicore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/06
Posts: 48

10/12/08 6:57:58 AM#17

The trouble with this problem is you always look at games initially with rose tinted glasses; when you first play it you are excited, you have lots to do and likely you have friends that feel the same way.

As you play more theres less new things to do, people get bored with the same stuff and the excitement dissapears.

New content isnt a bad thing (unless it breaks the game completely or alters it in a major way), if it gives you more or different things to do.

However, i would like to give players the option to use servers that are clean of all updates (bar bug or exploit fixes) but then you risk guilds being split and populations on each server dwindling.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  10/12/08 11:04:27 AM#18
Originally posted by Vindicore

The trouble with this problem is you always look at games initially with rose tinted glasses; when you first play it you are excited, you have lots to do and likely you have friends that feel the same way.

As you play more theres less new things to do, people get bored with the same stuff and the excitement dissapears.

New content isnt a bad thing (unless it breaks the game completely or alters it in a major way), if it gives you more or different things to do.

However, i would like to give players the option to use servers that are clean of all updates (bar bug or exploit fixes) but then you risk guilds being split and populations on each server dwindling.

 

I think that is a possibility for some people but I think there are a lot like myself that just think the original game was better than the current game and will still play it for the game it was. There are others that never got to experience the original game and it would be all new to them. If the game was a hit in the beginning then it still has the potential to do the same again.

I still enjoy going back and playing single player games that I have played in the past and loved. Why do I like to? I like to because they were hits and great games. They are still the same great game I played then. Can I go back to that time period .. no but that isn't the reason I am replaying them. I don't think we will know how successful these one or two servers will be unless they create them. DAOC seems to be having success with theirs and games like Diablo 2 that are not a MMO but are still online have players playing even to this day.

I believe there is a market for this type of server. If could be introduced as a good starting place or a classic server. There could be transfers available in the end for people who want to continue on progressing but the option would be there for people who don't. If anything it would create a lot of hype for the older game and would probably increase the subscription base overall.

I don't see how it would split up guilds if you say it would not be that popular anyhow. If people leave their guild to play on this server then they were not happy in the guild in the first place. My bet would be that most would not leave their guilds to try it. What would happen is older players would come back, new players may be enticed by the opportunity to get to see a game in it's glory and some guilds would create a division on that server to try it.

  Hawkins

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/04
Posts: 119

10/17/08 12:37:20 AM#19

I miss the classic RPGs. I think that I actullay proposed for a MMORPG drvien by a classic style single player RPG.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/207235

I think that it can designed so that each expansion will be a brand new storyline designed such that each player requires to start a new character in order to play the new expansion. The player however can keep his 'old characters' such that he can still enjoy the high level contents in the old expansion.