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10/02/08 8:04:43 PM#41
Originally posted by Rytif
OMFG, somebody just said this? You are kidding me right? Seriously, you have to be pulling somebody's leg here. Ah, well here it goes. You are an idiot, TANKS are TANKS. TANKS take DAMAGE. In order for TANKS to take DAMAGE, they must ATTACK the opposing team, so they are in other words TANKING. You are not TANKING when you sit beside the healer nor are you going to save the healer because you lack damage. TANKS are suppose to force players to damage them, which is why they go after key target healers. The DPS defend healers, TANKS do not defend healers. You will lose, because DPS cannot take enough damage to eliminate the opposing team's healers. Please god, don't give information out. Or atleast PvE information. GRRRRRRRRRRRR!
Actually, this is why PUGs are always so messed up. People do not understand their roles based on the group makeup. In PUGs, the groups are not "set up", so people just don't know exactly what to do. It's why the made groups wtfpwn people in scenarios and open tier RvR. Anyhow, you are correct in what many feel is the current role of tanks in this game since "peeling" just doesn't exist (is ineffective) in WAR like it does in other games. |
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10/02/08 8:46:04 PM#42
All I can say, as a Rune Priest I have a hard time keeping my level ahead of my RR. Level 24 now RR23. I had to log on and do a little PvE tonight just so I'd have a little breathing room coming into the weekend. Top the healing charts more often than not, and I do DPS on the side - no reason not to do both. In fact in my opinion, the benefit of playing a Rune Priest is the high renown benefits - at the sacrifice of PvE/questing taking a bit longer solo. My advice, make friends with an Ironbreaker and Bright Wizard who will protect your ass - and are good DPSers - and you'll mow through people quite easily, gaining boatloads of renown. |
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10/02/08 8:53:15 PM#43
Originally posted by Rytif
OMFG, somebody just said this? You are kidding me right? Seriously, you have to be pulling somebody's leg here. Ah, well here it goes. You are an idiot, TANKS are TANKS. TANKS take DAMAGE. In order for TANKS to take DAMAGE, they must ATTACK the opposing team, so they are in other words TANKING. You are not TANKING when you sit beside the healer nor are you going to save the healer because you lack damage. TANKS are suppose to force players to damage them, which is why they go after key target healers. The DPS defend healers, TANKS do not defend healers. You will lose, because DPS cannot take enough damage to eliminate the opposing team's healers. Please god, don't give information out. Or atleast PvE information. GRRRRRRRRRRRR!
LOL, wish my IB buddy was on the boards to give you a few lessons. Ever hear of knockback, snare, collison detection? A decent healer doesn't need a whole helluva lot of breathing room to stay alive. Especially when at next level I'll be getting an AoE knockback of my own. Heck, my friends even warn me on vent before I even get hit half the time ("Incoming east" or "Behind you" or "Witch elf just stealthed at the bridge....MOVE!") and tell me where to run, and take care of business from there........and they'll kill the targets before the targets can kill me FTW. Please stop sucking. EDIT: He is wrong about tanks not being there to kill though......I fully expect my IB fiends to both lead DPS and protect me as a healer. Same way I heal and DPS......if someone is playing one-dimensional then they aren't taking full advantage of their class. |
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10/02/08 9:05:04 PM#44
Originally posted by DarkShadow74 You see, thats when skills comes into play....I agree its hard to keep yourself alive when people come charging at you...But you have to realize that you're not playing a computer, you're playing against someone else (your tanks/dps cant force taunt the other guys). And when you're being attacked, your tank/dps guys are doing the exact same thing ( at least i hope so) they are attacking the healers. Then the only way to survive is to to rely on your other healing players. I cant stress enough how important it is to take out the healers from the opposing team. Thats the key to victory. You take out the healers and the tanks/dps are like flies waiting to get smacked. Majority of the time on my server at least, I head straight to the healers, and in the end I die because they are healing each other, and I have about 3 or more players on me. While my stupid teammates are attacking the tanks whose in the front lines taking damage. Healers heal each other first then focus on the tanks/dps. It isnt hard, its multi tasking. It takes about 2 seconds to cast a HoT (heal over time) buff and there are some instant HoT spells you have (at least for the order side) then you have basic heals which heals a certain amount. What healers should do is cast HoT heals on the healers that are being attacked and do the basic heals on tanks and vice versa. That does more than cover the DoTs (damage over time) abilities that dps/tanks have especially when theres about 4 healers on each scenario. Its a matter of team work, whoever isnt doing their part makes the team fail simple as that. On my server just about everywhere I go destruction side owns/controls all tiers, which is sad. The order people just dont know how to play as a team. Tier 2 my white lion averages 50k damage, but in the end means nothing because all those damage are being healed by destruction side working together. |
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10/03/08 7:04:35 PM#45
Originally posted by Steelguru
LOL, wish my IB buddy was on the boards to give you a few lessons. Ever hear of knockback, snare, collison detection? A decent healer doesn't need a whole helluva lot of breathing room to stay alive. Especially when at next level I'll be getting an AoE knockback of my own. Heck, my friends even warn me on vent before I even get hit half the time ("Incoming east" or "Behind you" or "Witch elf just stealthed at the bridge....MOVE!") and tell me where to run, and take care of business from there........and they'll kill the targets before the targets can kill me FTW. Please stop sucking. EDIT: He is wrong about tanks not being there to kill though......I fully expect my IB fiends to both lead DPS and protect me as a healer. Same way I heal and DPS......if someone is playing one-dimensional then they aren't taking full advantage of their class.
I see for Rytif that he thinks that tanks are offense, fine, you can certainly play that way. However, if the defensive role is playing offense, and the offensive role is playing offense, I don't see why the support role shouldn't also play offense, by your theory more offense is the best solution to any PvP problem right? Oh wait, that is what the OP was posting about to begin with, too many people playing offense instead of understanding their role. Most hit points and best armor = Defense. More damage = Offense Healing / Buffs / Debuffs = Support. I don't understand why that concept is so hard for people to understand, but lets use the American sport of Football to explain. The Tank is the lineman. The lineman is the big heavy guy who can take a lot of abuse without help. His job is to protect the Quarterback (aka the healer/support character) so the healer can get the ball to to the Receiver (aka the DPS) whose job it is to get a first down (aka rack up a kill) or score (aka achieve an objective). From my "Quarterback" postion as a healer in the game the problem I see is that all my Receivers run out for the ball, and all my lineman run out for the ball, then they all scream throw it to me, throw it to me!! They are all trying to score while I'm being sacked by the other team. One total party wipe later everyone is yelling at the healer for not healing them when it was an impossible task under the pressure of an unblocked blitz. So if you tanks insist on being the receivers because you're big, and hard to tackle, it's true, but the DPS guys are crap for taking blows, and the healer can not effectively use them as linemen. So once again you fail because the tank insists his role is Offense because he only wants to serve himself instead of the team and score for the "big win". You can certainly play WAR that way if you like, A football team can play a game that way too. They will just be disapointed with a series of losses, and blame the game for being unfair, when it's them that doesn't understand how to play the game to win. When I'm grouped with my guild mates with tanks who understand tanking as defense, and healers who understand healling as support, and DPSer who understand DPSing Offense, we consistently win scenarios and other roughly balanced PvP action. If you don't want to benefit from my advice as to why we have consistent success, that's certainly your perogative. Just don't come whining here that as a healer I don't "play right" when as a Tank you try to play as a receiver. I hope this helps. p.s. If you need me to explain to you why real Tanks are Defense in the real military I will do so too. |
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10/04/08 12:25:42 AM#46
Zmortis, I see you have pretty poor reading comprehension. I'll say again - no reason your tank can't protect you, as WELL as DPS. This isn't a football game, that's a pretty poor analogy. Even if I went there - you telling me a good receiver can't throw a downfield block? No analogies are needed here - stick to discussing the class mechanics. No class is meant to be utterly one-dimensional. If healers could only heal, how could they ever solo a PvE mob for example? If your healers are limited to healing only, and can't even tab-DOT and toss an AoE down in between, then they are poor players. If you are doing well with your current tactics great, but try fully exploring all aspects of your class and you will do even better. NOTE: this does not mean I consider my Rune Priest a dpser.......I can see you typing that now.....go ahead and reread my post again to save yourself another long-winded diatribe. P.S. - I think your problem is that you are taking a PvE mentality to your PvP experience. |
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10/04/08 1:08:22 AM#47
Originally posted by zmortis
In regards to this line at the bottom I would like to input here that a Tank is a tracked, armoured fighting vehicle designed for front-line combat which combines operational mobility and tactical offensive and defensive capabilities. It was designed with the purpose of giving battle line commanders the means to punch holes in enemy defensive lines/formations. Modern tanks command kilometer wide areas of responsibility on a movemnt basis , aquire target engage shift position target engage repeat while moving FORWARD. Combined with infantry and support assests creating the modern combined arms elements of todays military the tank is still considered and used as a shock element to destroy forward heavy opposition in a MOBILE OFFENSIVE capacity. Diggin a Tank in and using it as a static defensive platform is generally considered a holding action (i.e. oh shit hunker down or a holding action due to a political descision) making the tank a very expensive LARGE target to todays militaries. This is a SUPER short version feel free to do alittle reseach yourself before spouting more of this nonsense. Janes Defense or even wikpedia are you friends. I don't particularly care about the argument at hand but wanted to point out this statement. Feel free to dispute it if you like by posting your Branch of Service, MOS specialty and personnal tactical experience on the battlefield to do so. Say any one of the U.S. Military operations involving Armor in Bosnia, Somalia, Honduras or the forward armor engagements of Iraq (either war present or past)and/or Afghanistan will suffice. Sorry for the rant. P.S. Warhammer Rocks lol. Fukn loving this game. |
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10/04/08 6:57:34 AM#48
Originally posted by 69Cuda
I never said defensive action has to be stationary or avoid engagement with the enemy. However, since you are a big fan of Janes Defense you will understand that a tank has no where near the offensive power of a Ground Assault Aircraft. Put your lone rogue unsupported Tank against a C-130 Spectre Gunship and who wins the fight? Those Air Assault platforms are the true offensive power of the modern Military, while the Tank is only used for short range capture and hold manuevers and is highly dependent on direct infantry support. Of the two, the tank is much more vulnerable if they get out of range of their immediate support mechanism. They have to work very closely in concert with their infantry support mechanism. The Ground Assault Aircraft has a much greater range of unsupported action compared to a slow Tank, especially when mixed with the Air Superiority fighter. When someone takes a tank away from their ground support in an area where the enemy has Air Control the Tank Dies, regardless of how hard a lone mechanic tries to keep it operational. That is the point I am makeing. Rogue solo or even two man operations are no where near as effective as combined strategy. You tell me what happens to a military that does not work in concert with each other since you are an expert in all things military. I don't need to have been a supply MOS to understand the support mechanism is as important a role as anything else in the military. Without it the military dies. When you leave your logistics and supply vulnerable, undefended, and under assault tell me what happens in a military engagement? When you ignore the mission objective in favor of chasing random guerilla forces because it's more fun, tell me what happens? I can tell you if you don't know, You lose the fight! I hope this helps. p.s. I am also enjoying playing WAR, but for me PUGs with solo minded players are no where near as fun or effective as when I am with a coordinated Guild Group. p.p.s. I am playing a Rune Priest as my main, and if I ignore healing in a group, in favor glory DPS, my group suffers for it. It's certainly ok to drop a DOT or DD when you're good on action points, and everyone is healthy, but if you don't or can't heal when you're needed, you're next to useless to the group as a whole. |
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10/04/08 7:34:06 AM#49
I have all three Order healers. I choose different strategies when playing each one. You can't not dps at least some of the time on the AM and WP. It's just not possible. The only Order healer that can have the luxury of not dpsing at all is the RP.
I'd like to point out too that the UI isn't great for healers atm. It's very hard to see your party most of the time in scenarios and/or RvR. You don't automatically see peoples' hitpoints outside the party so you can't always tell if they need help. If someone in my group is taking a lot of damage too, they get priority on my heals. It sucks when all of the healers are in one group and tanks in another, but unfortunately, that's the bad luck of the draw of the PuG.
Also, outside of the WP, none of the healers can really kite a tank train and heal easily at the same time. So please please please peel off attackers from healers if you want healing! I've been subjected even to squig beating for several minutes on my RP while trying to keep an entire group alive. It's not a rare occurance! RPs and WPs seem to be the first targets of Destro, so anytime a healer has to kite the tank train away, you won't get healing at all. No peeling? No complaining about lack of heals. End of story... Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC. |
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10/04/08 9:36:27 AM#50
I had Archmage as main once, it was an uttlerly thankless experience. First, Archmage dies much faster than Runepriest, but no Dorfs for me. Then you stand quite out and I must say tanks just dont help. I dunno, but healers get little protection, and Archmage dies dies dies so easily, esp for Witches or what they are called. I rly learned to hate that class, heh. They jump on me from invis and once they are at me I can practically let go and watch the invitable. (NERF THEM NOW PLS!) At first I tried to help whenever I saw someone in trouble, but in 95% it led to my own doom, when those I wanted to help just ran away and left ME to their mobs. I just stopped playing healer at some point. You are totally left alone in the rain with that job. Nobody thanks you when you do it good, and just snap at you HEALPLZ when you fail to heal 20 people at the same time. Somehow being healer is like working as garbage collector. I am glad the job is done, but pls let it be done by someone else. |
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10/04/08 9:49:03 AM#51
I always thought the healer was key in PVP and was always my first target but if players dont work together then being a healer is not desired.....In most games it is a thankless job and you get blamed if things go badly...... |
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10/04/08 10:41:10 AM#52
I have not had a problem getting experience in scenarios when I play my shaman, I get vastly more experience than most people in the scenerio half the time. Generally my healing at the end of a average scenario is 18k -19k in teir 1, with 6k dmg. I only tend to use my damaging attacks when I have 5 waagh (I think thats what its called) I almost always have 6 to 7 k experience at the end of sceneraio, with 4k if I join half way through, which seems to happen alot >< I have leveled 80 % through scenarios, which are much more enjoyable now there is more variety in which ones I can do, before it got boring quite quickly doing the same one over and over again. People finally seem to be learning to play as well ;p |
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10/04/08 12:10:20 PM#53
Originally posted by Kilmar What the hell are you talking about? I throw a HoT on everyone in battle and watch as the waterfall of RP appear over my head. On a decent PG run I usually end up with 1200-1600 RP, over half of that from healing because the people I run with are higher renown levels (thus more RP per heal tic on them). |
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