Well, I said he wasn't really a demi-god, but got pretty close to it. My point is, only a few are able to use magic, the Maiar, Valar, etc. All together maybe 100 people. How many people will be using real magic, when rune-keepers arrive? Way too many.

Originally posted by Lazer7

From the way Erandur states demi-god, I am gathering he means a minor god, which is one of the definitions. From how you state it, I agree. It is a poor word of choice in general as the definitions are many, and can be vague, including, "A person who is highly honored or revered." I also do not believe Gandalf was Manwe, as I have heard many of the discussions on this. You will find many of them on the Lord of the Rings Fanatic Plaza.

I would have to agree. I have even used the word demi-god but I alway think of it as more of a being on the stature of loki. The problem is that because of the major religions that flourish today, when one says demi-god one immediately conjures a "one" god and then subordinates the individual "a bit".

But it still ties it to the idea of some creating all powerful being and Gandalf was certainly not that.

Interesting enough, I just looked up demigod because I was questioning whether Loki would be considered one or not.

It seems that (at least from wikipedia) it is a term that describes the outcome of the union between a god and a mortal.

So because of this, I think term demi-god might not work in many instances if one were to take it in this context.

However, I also imagine that to the average person (and I certainly include myself in that) the term probably has lost this meaning and could very possibly take on a more literal meaning... God Like but not a full god.

hmmm, this all certainly sounds a bit geeky huh?  don't really remember having a discussion like this on the Lineage 2 or Warhammer forums  

edit: andyes Erandur, your point is my point as well. now hundreds and thousands of players in virtual middle earth are going to be sending lightning bolts over my head.

The thing is that magic in Middle Earth is very hard to define.. not even Tolkien himself seemed to be able to really explain what "magic" really is and how its used... In this thread Berephon (Turbines "Lore monkey") http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=144805&page=7 is discusing how he views "magic"...

"These are not my "laws," but Tolkien's, drawn from his own writings, which are publicly available at any bookstore, for those who wish to research it themselves. Take it or leave it, these are the rules by which LotRO is designed in accordance with our license and IP, rules which may be bent (sometimes to the point of straining), but not seriously or intentionally broken, unless it proves necessary. (There have been a few minor fractures for gameplay's sake, but nothing shattered so far.) While a lot of these things cannot be discussed in-game, we strive not to contradict them in-game either. (Of course, the laws of "magic" in Middle-earth are very easily extrapolated just within the volume of LotR.)"

 

You all made really valid points about the lore and such. In my opinion, the easiest way to fix the "lore break" of the Rune-Keepers (not completely but better than it will be) is to make the class an "epic" class. Either you have to get to level 50 or 60 and you can create one. If it's 50, then not as many accounts will be making one right when they get it and if it's 60, there will be even fewer. Sure, eventually everybody will get to level 60 and make one. By that time, though, maybe a few of the people who reached 60 first would have gotten bored with their RK. Either way, it would be the best way to have Rune-Keepers spread out throughout the level brackets of 1 - 10, 11 - 20, 21 - 30, etc.

I don't know. I just think that, as useful and probably amazing as the class will be, the fewer Rune-Keepers there are, the better. (then their value in the group will be appreciated more instead of just "Oh great. Another f****** Rune-Keeper.")

(And I apolagize if some of the things I said didn't make sense, haha.)

This sounds much like the way SWG was going to do the Jedi. I am not sure how they ended up doing it, but they had the same type of plan for the Jedi introduction. I do not see this happening, but it is an interesting idea.

The one thing I gathered from how magic was mentioned in the books, and interviews, is that magic was not abundantly used. Wether a lost skill of old, or a skill for the elder, or even a skill that belonged only to a chosen few, it was obvious that it did not flow as abundantly as the Rune-Keepers will. Beyond that, I can not honestly cast an opinion on that which I have not tried.

Originally posted by erandur

Originally posted by beaverz

The magic in lotr lore isnt like what you get in most mmos where one class just throws fire, water or whatever it is. Here magic has many forms, sorta enchants like in frodo's sword (sting), word magic like the ford of bruien word incatation that makes the river wipe the nazguls away. Or much more complex magic that can only be used by legendary hcaracters (gandalf, saruman, witch king, sauron).

If there is a word incantation that make a river turn into horses, why wouldnt there be one that casts a firebal, or ray of light.

Dont say that something made by turbine is against the lore just beause you didnt see it in the movies. As long as they dotn start making characters that look like wow's mages we should be ok.

Because we're normal players, Gandalf etc. are demi-gods... Normal creatures didn't use magic, not even the elves. Except the demi-gods (thought it was something like maia's or something like that) and normal gods, the is NO magic whatsoever.

This feels oddly familar ..... PreCU anyone. Jedi Knights everywhere!

[/quote]
Simple, the grind during the last levels (45-50) was awful... Kill 20 orcs, blabla, reward: 4k xp. You needed to do 20-40 quests like that, 400-800 creatures, and that's just for 1 level. It's WAY too level-based, and their leveling system just ends up in a FedEx grind. That's why most people quit around lvl 20-30.
I just couldn't survive grinding for another 10-20 hours for a few levels... That's probably why Guild Wars is so great for me. :D But yea, of the current players who are lvl 50, most of them don't mind those quests. I suppose I'm a bit excentric, I love the lore, the game just didn't turn out how I wanted... The beginning was great though :D, the shire is by far the best place in ME so far. If Turbine cares about what their players think, they'll keep in mind that everybody does get bored of killing 20 X. And if those woods after Moria (forgot the name) turn out like they're described (the most beautiful place in ME), I'll probably get back, just for the scenery. :D [/quote]

The venture from 1-50 was a breeze my friend.On a good evening of playing anyone can make a huge dent in their grinding if they get a group. Upping the cap to 60 is a great idea,getting to 60 will actually be a challenging acomplishment itself.

Originally posted by erandur

Hrm, I'd not only read the books , but read the lore! Magic is supposed to be only for gods and demi-gods (like Gandalf). The loremaster was already a minor violation of the lore, the rune-keeper is a major violation... Even Turbina said they were walking away from the lotr-lore. That together with the increased level cap, made me quit...

First, I told you so. I mean not you personally, but everywhere I went I always said "someday we are GOING to have magicians - however they are called." I also said 3 long years to SWG fellows SOMEDAY we gonna have Jedi.

Now pls repeat the official MMORPG mantra "Yunbei is always right, I will believe Yunbei, Yunbei is God."

Anyhow... I find it kinda ridiculous people quit over "lore violations", as if LOTR would be the Holy Script. Its a frigging FANTASY story! MMOs just cant follow the narrow pathways of a book and still function. It is just impossible. There are always changing wishes and demands which call for compromises. MMOs MUST evolve and adapt to player wants or they are doomed.

I love Tolkiens work as many here, but Tolkien isnt God and I see LOTRO more as "alternative dimension" version than the real Tolkien world. A bit like the UO shards were alternative Britannias as compared to the former single player Britannia. I find it funny people start quoting Tolkien here to proof this and that as if they were the Apostle St.Paul .

So IMO, if you quit a MMO you formerly enjoyed over something as trivial as the addition of a class you dont like, sorry but something is wrong with you.

Originally posted by Yunbei

Originally posted by erandur

Hrm, I'd not only read the books , but read the lore! Magic is supposed to be only for gods and demi-gods (like Gandalf). The loremaster was already a minor violation of the lore, the rune-keeper is a major violation... Even Turbina said they were walking away from the lotr-lore. That together with the increased level cap, made me quit...

 

First, I told you so. I mean not you personally, but everywhere I went I always said "someday we are GOING to have magicians - however they are called." I also said 3 long years to SWG fellows SOMEDAY we gonna have Jedi.

Now pls repeat the official MMORPG mantra "Yunbei is always right, I will believe Yunbei, Yunbei is God."

Anyhow... I find it kinda ridiculous people quit over "lore violations", as if LOTR would be the Holy Script. Its a frigging FANTASY story! MMOs just cant follow the narrow pathways of a book and still function. It is just impossible. There are always changing wishes and demands which call for compromises. MMOs MUST evolve and adapt to player wants or they are doomed.

I love Tolkiens work as many here, but Tolkien isnt God and I see LOTRO more as "alternative dimension" version than the real Tolkien world. A bit like the UO shards were alternative Britannias as compared to the former single player Britannia. I find it funny people start quoting Tolkien here to proof this and that as if they were the Apostle St.Paul .

So IMO, if you quit a MMO you formerly enjoyed over something as trivial as the addition of a class you dont like, sorry but something is wrong with you.

But the problem is you just don't get it. It's not about somene quitting over the fact that there were 4 rooms (or whatever) in Bilbos house or that they had to sacle the world down to fit a realistic size in gamign or whether or not a tree was place in a certain place.

the issue is that it's akin to playing in a game that is based in the civil war and they add FGF Hellcats.

Because the players of these games are so inundated in the whole D&D fantasy realms that they have no clue about integrity to story or world.

I personally have no problem with the game not being a middle earth simulator (which would have been stupid) or the use of mmo conventions such as trainers or auction houses.

But putting something in in a manner that doesn't belong there suddenly tilts the whole experience. "which one of these is not like the other".

And yes, there are people out there who would like a little integrity to the source material. In my opinion it's ok to have integrity. I so seldom see it that it's always refreshing when I do and a sad par for the course when I don't.

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

And yes, there are people out there who would like a little integrity to the source material. In my opinion it's ok to have integrity. I so seldom see it that it's always refreshing when I do and a sad par for the course when I don't.

You know what happens when these games don't stick with source integrity?

It ends up an unfocused mess like Star Wars Galaxies both pre and post nge.

Originally posted by Torak

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

And yes, there are people out there who would like a little integrity to the source material. In my opinion it's ok to have integrity. I so seldom see it that it's always refreshing when I do and a sad par for the course when I don't.

 

You know what happens when these games don't stick with source integrity?

It ends up an unfocused mess like Star Wars Galaxies both pre and post nge.

Sorry but thats BS. NGE wasnt crap because it included Jedi. They were there before. Most ppl wanted Jedi, so SOE did what most wanted. End of story.

They messed up other things.

I respect those who prefer canon, but a MMO is not a museum.

Originally posted by Yunbei

Originally posted by Torak

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

And yes, there are people out there who would like a little integrity to the source material. In my opinion it's ok to have integrity. I so seldom see it that it's always refreshing when I do and a sad par for the course when I don't.

 

You know what happens when these games don't stick with source integrity?

It ends up an unfocused mess like Star Wars Galaxies both pre and post nge.

 

Sorry but thats BS. NGE wasnt crap because it included Jedi. They were there before. Most ppl wanted Jedi, so SOE did what most wanted. End of story.

They messed up other things.

I respect those who prefer canon, but a MMO is not a museum.

Thanks for reading.

The game was f*cked the second they included Jedi along with a multitude of other things that went astray.

MMO may not be museums (whatever you mean by that) but you can easily see what happens when you start to get all crazy with adding things on a whim.

Will LotR follow the same route? dunno but its not a good sign they start tampering with core aspects of the lore.

I think most of the hardcore purists quit the game over some obscure tidbit that made them mad already or never started in the first place.  Adding in a "magic" class won't affect the majority of people and they needed to do it a long time ago.