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News & Features Discussion  » Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning: Jacobs on GOA, Forums and Accountability

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101 posts found
  Tawn47

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/27/07
Posts: 515

9/22/08 7:22:48 PM#21
Originally posted by LordDraekon

Very nice interview, Jon. Well done. I'll look forward to Part 2.

I've heard Mark's logic on Mythic's aversion to Official Forums and I still disagree. Saying that community managers are somehow disconnected is a flippant statement and simply untrue. Many is the time I have seen on Official Forums where a Community Manager would continue pressing the development team until they got an answer to some particular community concern.  Tiggs and Caydiem immediately come to mind. Did they suffer abuse? Definitely. But they managed to keep us informed and make us feel like we were valued as customers. Mark either suffers from selective memory or limited experience. He really should know better.

 

Nonsense.  Community managers are great for an MMORPG which has developers with bad communication skills..  but why would Mythic need them?  The devs regularly post on Warhammer Alliance and their direct personal input is far more valuable than some canned message being passed along by some guys who run a forum.

  SteamRanger

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/03
Posts: 919

I don''t have to know how to make a better game, I only need to know where the "CANCEL" button is!

9/22/08 7:26:27 PM#22

As a follow-up, regarding Mark's philosophy that the best way for a customer to express dissatisfaction is to merely cancel their subscription, I would question why it is that Mythic gathers no feedback when a customer cancels. When you cancel your subscription, Mythic asks you nothing. You click the button and your next billing is cancelled, no questionaire, no follow-up email except to say that you have cancelled. To me, that indicates that Mythic doesn't really care why you cancelled.

Mark Jacobs appears to live in a bubble of his own reality. The world is as he understands it and there is no variation from that. Things have changed a lot in this industry since 2001, but Mark still sticks to his guns that his way is the right way. I would love to see Warhammer succeed out of love for the franchise, but Mythic seems determined to run this game into the ground like they have with Dark Age of Camelot, another game I have loved that has dwindled to a sorry state because of management that is too stubborn to admit that there might be a better way. If EA doesn't somehow intervene, I fear that within a year, WAR will be reduced to merging, then clustering servers to maintain some illusion of a healthy population. It's sad when EA appears to be the only hope.

"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift

  Tachikoma00

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/05
Posts: 49

9/22/08 8:04:18 PM#23
Originally posted by jakin

My opinion:  It's a cop-out.

MMOs will always have some variety of out of game community.  If a company doesn't provide an official spot for that community to gather it will gather somewhere else on someone else's dime.

All Mythic is doing in this case is shunting the responsibility for community management off themselves and onto other sites (WHA, this one, TTH, etc). 

I appreciate the fact that no one likes to have abuse hurled at them, I also appreciate the fact that many MMO players of this day and age feel overly entitled to door say whatever they like because "they pay their money".  None of these things abrogate the responsibility (IMO) to provide an official area for the community that will form anyway.

Now when Mythic has a customer-relations problem it will be the third-party sites that take the brunt of the flames, threats, disappointment, etc. (witness the GOA stuff - it produced another whole forum here)  It's poor form in my view to offload problems you cause (and the known consequences) onto someone else entirely.

Do I think it will kill WAR to not have forums - no, of course not.  I do however disagree with the concept and believe that fundamentally it's taking the easy way out.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love Warhammer and I loved DAoC but their lack of official forums has always been a cop-out.

  Scalebane

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 2240

9/22/08 8:21:26 PM#24
Originally posted by tkobo

A cop-out doesnt paint it with enough crap...

What we have here ,is a VERY easy to see attempt at lessening the spread of harmful (to the game) information.

Nothing less,nothing more.That they choose to cover it in PR crap, and serve it to the interviewer who just bobs and takes it as gospel, says more than people should need to know about them.

For those perception challenged,they choose to not have a forum,becuase they understand thats where the information they dont want talked about would be........

And of course,this isnt the reason they admit to.No... no... its becuase they dont feel the forums would serve a useful purpose....all the while promoting the forums of the surrogates they use to spread their side of an issue .....

Becuase if they had their own forum, their control over the information would be direct and hence even some of the MMO fans would spot it.BUT with the forums they think work just fine, the forums they support,those  forums hosted by surrogates,they can pretend to have a degree of seperation from the control while wielding it just the same.And some of you will buy it.

Remember this is a  Dev  from the very same company who hired Lum, just to shut him up.And the head one at that.

Barnum had nothing on these guys.Deception to make a sale......

Does seem they are scared to do it, if they are so open to talk to people like everyone says why not just have official forums, i do feel like he is just passing the buck onto other people look at this site, there is no official site so the war forums here are filled to the brim, Fansites like WarhammerAlliance and others don't really let you speak your mind so people are trying to find other places to talk, its a shame really.

I'm glad there are companies out there that just suck it up and have official forums.

GOA is still awful, can't believe he would even support those people, feel sorry for the people overseas.

"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas

  SteamRanger

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/03
Posts: 919

I don''t have to know how to make a better game, I only need to know where the "CANCEL" button is!

9/22/08 8:56:39 PM#25

Hey, guys. Go a little easier on Jon. This isn't ABC News here and he's not Brian Ross. Whenever one of the folks from MMORPG does an interview, they ask questions and the designer / company rep answers. It's not Jon's place to press for more. Frankly, the guys here get more feedback than a lot of the larger sites. Mark Jacobs is apparently so sure of himself and his position that he appears to answer very forcefully. He knows people won't like the answer so he fires it back like a cannonball. Really, the only thing the interviewer can do is take the answer and record it. Press for more and the interview can come to an abrupt end.

"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift

  Moroth

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/06
Posts: 101

9/22/08 10:00:21 PM#26

No game company is obligated to provid a forum.  There are other forums available that get monitored and in-game tools to provide feedback.  Most forums contain excessive abusive feedback that gets repeated thousands of times.  If you're unhappy with the game you can express your opinion to them directly, the fact that they're not giving you a tool to share it with the rest of the world is fine.

 

Perhaps when the MMO community matures a little and learns some manners in regards to providing constructive posts and not polls on who's leaving at the end of the month they'll provide official forums.  Till then I can't blame em.

 

The fact that there are so many posts here saying it's a cop-out to not give you a place to abuse them proves this point.  Otherwise why would it be considered a cop-out?

  Tachikoma00

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/05
Posts: 49

9/22/08 11:26:47 PM#27
Originally posted by Moroth

No game company is obligated to provid a forum.  There are other forums available that get monitored and in-game tools to provide feedback.  Most forums contain excessive abusive feedback that gets repeated thousands of times.  If you're unhappy with the game you can express your opinion to them directly, the fact that they're not giving you a tool to share it with the rest of the world is fine.

 

Perhaps when the MMO community matures a little and learns some manners in regards to providing constructive posts and not polls on who's leaving at the end of the month they'll provide official forums.  Till then I can't blame em.

 

The fact that there are so many posts here saying it's a cop-out to not give you a place to abuse them proves this point.  Otherwise why would it be considered a cop-out?

 

This response is such a joke. We aren't dissatisfied with not having an area to "abuse," we're dissatisfied with not having an "official" area to discuss this game we love with the official development team or PR heads.

There is a lot of garbage on the official WoW forums. But guess what? There's infinitely more positive and productive posts that outweigh the negative ones. Not only that, but there's tons of information about the game centralized into one forum. I don't want to have to shoot to two or three different fan sites for an MMO just to find discussion on my specific class/race selection. The companies who developed and produced the game should to provide the necessary hubs to discuss their creation. Not having that because they fear having "their feelings hurt by some forum trolls" is a complete cop-out. No way around it.

  PapaLazarou

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/08
Posts: 518

9/22/08 11:31:08 PM#28

You need official forums because its a place for the community to go and you can't blame official forums for a failure of a game.... like SWG that game failed because of Lucas Arts and SOE ruining it, not the forums because they ignored them.

 

  davvin

Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/07
Posts: 155

"You''re not going crazy. You''re going sane in a crazy world!"

9/22/08 11:50:58 PM#29

when i first heard that they weren't going to be doing "official" forums a year or two ago i was like "wtf, how can you not have forums". now i honestly don't care all that much, i've dealt with the cesspools of the WOW forums and the Age of Conan forums enough to realize that while there can be some decent info gained from the forums, sometimes it's just not worth it. and as far as the person saying that there is more positive and productive posts than negative ones--that is true, but usually the negative posts get bumped more often and fill up the front pages which makes finding the positive and productive posts a pain in the ass sometimes.

 

as far as having a place where you can discuss your different classes/races, i've found that it's not uncommon for the forums to not have the information i'm looking for and end up having to go to several different sites anyways. without having an official forum, people are going to migrate to a couple main ones--warhammer alliance will probably one of the big ones and i would expect to get decent class discussions there, just like i would from an official class forum.

  LeGray

Novice Member

Joined: 6/11/06
Posts: 65

The cake is a pie!

9/23/08 12:07:46 AM#30

honestly, if you provide a forum it's also your job to keep it clean. one of the reasons the wow-forum has such a bad rep is because there is either too much or too less moderation - another example would be the lotro forums: tidy and informative, not the swamp ppl say "official forums always are".

on another note, as CM/CSR/mod you sign up for a job that may require to get dirt thrown at you. if someone can't handle that, sorry - get another job.
this kind of job is usually the only connection between you (the player) and the company, so when players get angry or dissatisfied they point their anger at the only company ppl available (with the whole "internet overreaction", face to face these ppl would behave quite differently ;) ).

ofc, a forum costs money (platform, moderation etc.). they can safe some by just putting up forums without much personal - like blizz - or just scrap it alltogether to safe more. but if you do that you shouldn't expect an objective opinion somewhere else, especially in a FANforum (imagine the hardcore-pve'er posting in a pvp forum.. riiight).

so yeah.. having no offical forum is either stupid arrogance or simple greed. especially if you pay a sub to play, f2p may get away with it.

  damian7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 4514

why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?

9/23/08 2:34:23 AM#31
Originally posted by Stradden
Originally posted by Yunbei

Remarkable that he really compares us, the customers, to a Tyrannosaurus. There is no excuse for the lack of official forums. Period.

 

He's very clearly not describing every customer as a dangerous dinosaur. In the context of what was said, it's clear that he was talking about the specific people who express their frustrations in abusive and threatening ways.

You don't agree with the call, that's fine, but you're taking that statement way out of context.

 


 

no official forums means that if a dev makes a post somewhere, i have to search and find which forum he posted on and find what he said, or hope that everyone on whatever forums i may read, copies that thread.

no official forums means that when devs make announcements or CUSTOMERS have technical issues, they don't have an easy one-stop reference.

no official forums means that all the players who make guides on classes, questing, rvr'ing, or whatever... have them spread out all over the internet.  can i go hear and find guides on all the different war classes? or do i have to search all over the 'net in order to try and find guides about things?

no official forums means that the gaming company cares THAT little about their customers and their customers' convenience that THEY (the gaming company) can't be bothered to put official forums.

 

honestly, i'm enjoying war.  but the disrespect inherent to no official forums is appalling, ESPECIALLY with mr. jacobs giving the reason he gave.  if i have to hunt and search to find BASIC gaming information (which isn't covered on the official website, in the book that came with the game, nor is it in the in-game help); and there's not a one-stop official forum to go look and i LITERALLY went to over a dozen fansites in order to find what i thought should be simple instructions... that irks me to no end.

mythic needs to pull their heads out of their asses, put up some official forums so that technical support and guides to everything are easily available to their paying customers.

if they are too chickenshit to do this... i don't see a reason to continue to play and support a game full of devs who are skeered that someone might say something bad about their game.

reminds me too much of the WONDERFUL people who created vanguard.

 

i can, and am, overlooking a lot of "not quite right" stuff in war (which is NOT their first mmo, so you should expect a quite stunning launch)... lack of official forums is NOT something i plan on overlooking... ever.

could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  damian7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 4514

why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?

9/23/08 2:49:31 AM#32
Originally posted by Moroth

No game company is obligated to provid a forum.  There are other forums available that get monitored and in-game tools to provide feedback.  Most forums contain excessive abusive feedback that gets repeated thousands of times.  If you're unhappy with the game you can express your opinion to them directly, the fact that they're not giving you a tool to share it with the rest of the world is fine.

 

Perhaps when the MMO community matures a little and learns some manners in regards to providing constructive posts and not polls on who's leaving at the end of the month they'll provide official forums.  Till then I can't blame em.

 

The fact that there are so many posts here saying it's a cop-out to not give you a place to abuse them proves this point.  Otherwise why would it be considered a cop-out?


 

see my reply below yours someplace...

 

but... where do you go for those nifty technical problems?  heaven forbid a gaming company have a single place where all the players can go to see how to tweak vista, or what settings on a video card might need to be changed, or a plethora of common problems that not only official people comment on, but also players.  how many different fansites is reasonable for you to be expected to visit?  are these fansites going to have mods that ensure a lot of false information and/or viruses aren't being passed to trusting folks?

 

wondering about trying a new class and don't want to gimp it from the go and have to pay for multiple respecs because there are things you really just didn't understand?  go find a nifty little class guide.  see a bunch of them for witch hunters right now?  what about squig herders?  heck, the game has been out for nearly a week, between beta testers and hardcore fools, there IS lvl 40 experience out there and i'm sure there's several people already throwing guides online...  where?  could you point me to which fansites EXACTLY have nifty guides about the how's and why's of those two classes?

 

hey, i'm on such and such server, playing X faction and i'd like to see, at a glance, which guilds are there and what they're saying they are all about... how many fansites, EXACTLY, have a crapton of guilds from all servers and both factions, posting recruiting adds... like guilds would do on official forums?

 

when devs make posts of interest to the entire community... how many fansites is it reasonable for me to visit in order to see these posts made by the devs of the game i paid for a box and a monthly fee, to be a reasonable number?  is my sense of entitlement so out of whack to think that this and the above reasons are legitimate and far outweigh someone's sense of  "don't say nuffin bad about me cuz i'm skeered"?

 

these, and more, are reasons why a gaming company, in this day and age, refusing to have official forums, are complete bullshit.

could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  Moodah

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/08
Posts: 181

9/23/08 4:29:08 AM#33

A while ago, official game forums were a big part of the online community, where people exchanged views and generally had fun, also voiced their their frustrations but most of the times in a more or less civilised manners.

Since MMOs went up in numbers, official game forums became a combination of whining and verbal abuse, with some imformative posts.

Good way to get sick of the MMO you enjoy playing is if you strart reading the official forums. The sheer amount of whining and complaining gets to you in a way even if you enjoy the game at that time.

Forums or no forums, I have never seen any MMO developers go forth and communicate with the community on all bigger un-official forums, posting elaborate and informative stuff and not just some run on the mill default answers like most other companies do. I appreciate that much more as a customer than having an official forums. They also tend not to hinde when they screw up something, and generally admit their mistakes and try repairing it and that also goes a long way with me.

All in all Mythic people were more active with the community in terms of quality and quantity of the communication, forum or no forum.

  DarkPony

Steed of Tardcore

Joined: 8/29/08
Posts: 5637

Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.

9/23/08 5:07:40 AM#34

Sadly he only focusses on the negative bits of having official forums. : /

I for one always enjoyed the interaction in especially the realm forums; people organizing events, making art, posting rl pictures, stating their respect for certain skillful oponents, getting people to join your guild, publishing their guild's latest achievements and yes, making new friends.

I hope he'll reconsider his stance on this.

The negative issues he describes can be delt with by mods, simple as that.

Aye, it costs them a little more money but it gives the community one central board for out of game interaction which is to me, an important thing to any mmo.

Besides, they shouldn't be afraid that the posters will flame WAR to death on their hometurf like on the AoC forums since it is a kick ass game anyway and they have always been open an honest with us.

  ofir7786

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/05
Posts: 61

9/23/08 5:45:57 AM#35

GOA didn't solve crap. Many people(Including myself) still can't log in on peak hours. Some can't even log in at all, except for late nights and early mornings. Horrid lag spikes for some as well.

  damian7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 4514

why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?

9/23/08 6:15:08 AM#36
Originally posted by Moodah

A while ago, official game forums were a big part of the online community, where people exchanged views and generally had fun, also voiced their their frustrations but most of the times in a more or less civilised manners.

Since MMOs went up in numbers, official game forums became a combination of whining and verbal abuse, with some imformative posts.

Good way to get sick of the MMO you enjoy playing is if you strart reading the official forums. The sheer amount of whining and complaining gets to you in a way even if you enjoy the game at that time.

Forums or no forums, I have never seen any MMO developers go forth and communicate with the community on all bigger un-official forums, posting elaborate and informative stuff and not just some run on the mill default answers like most other companies do. I appreciate that much more as a customer than having an official forums. They also tend not to hinde when they screw up something, and generally admit their mistakes and try repairing it and that also goes a long way with me.

All in all Mythic people were more active with the community in terms of quality and quantity of the communication, forum or no forum.


 

 

so, all this communication from mythic... how is that helping me if i'm looking for technical support help?  if i'm wanting to see what all guilds are recruiting for a specific faction on a specific realm?  how does that help me, as a customer, if i'm looking for player created guides?  if i'm having those technical problems and i'd like to know that someone isn't pulling my leg or trying to do harmful things to my box?

that's great that YOU, as a customer, appreciate random podcasts from a jolly developer during beta. how exactly does that help the rest of us customers with any of the above?

can you tell me where i can find all of the above in one convenient location, where i can rest assured that i'm not being led astray?

if not, then it's complete rubbish.

 

communication my hindquarters.  i re-read the interview and jacobs doesn't say that a certain part of his paying customer are dinosaurs, i don't even see it implied that he's referring to just a part of the paying public.

could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  Mirandel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 105

9/23/08 6:16:17 AM#37

It has always amazed me how fanboys can support any decision their favorite companies makes, no matter how terrible that decision sounds. ”No forums” is a cheap move. It is not only saves money for Mythica but this is the perfect way to avoid any responsibilities and in the same time keep "carrot on stick" on unofficial forums for customers. Developers can promise mountains of gold on those "unofficial" forums and diaries. And if anyone later asks "where are all those promises?" they can simply answer "you know, it was just a thoughts. Unofficial opinion". Perfect!

Expanded version of BG from WoW (as WAR is) is a fun game, but Mark's bragging reminds me of Brad McQuaid.

  damian7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 4514

why must i be nice to people that have no clue, are lying, or are just stupid?

9/23/08 6:20:06 AM#38
Originally posted by Stradden

MMORPG.com Managing Editor Jon Wood had the opportunity to speak with Mythic Entertainment boss Mark Jacobs about GOA, forums and Mythic accountability.

Just before the launch of Mythic Entertainment's Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, I had the opportunity to sit down and talk about the game. We covered a lot of ground in our short interview, and in this half, we talked about talking about everything from the finished product itself to the GOA head start issue to Mythic's decision to forgo official forums and his thoughts on accountability.

I started out my conversation with Mark by asking him a question that I asked both Jeff and Josh before him. Was there anything that got into the finished product of the game at the last minute that you were worried wouldn't make it? His answer was the same as Jeff's. "I'm glad the auction house got in on time," he answered with a bit of a chuckle. "That one was touch and go there for a while."

Read the first part of the interview here.


 

 

 

you know what, the more i look  at the whole accountability crap that jacobs put out there in that interview... the more i believe that someone THAT bloody arrogant and that honestly gives that little of a crap about me, the customer... he got me on paying for the box; but they won't see another cent from me. 

 

i wish i'd have read that before buying the box.  my biggest complaint with SOE is the way they treat their customers.

tie that into the frustration with the lack of documentation about basic gameplay and my having to scour the internet to find information that should be on their website and which WOULD be on official forums... yes, i think i will do exactly as jacobs states and canx my CC... and i'll go the extra mile for his smart-alec generalizations and do my best to spread the "truth" about this game and company.

big ups.  now we know without a doubt that soe isn't the exception to the rule.

could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  arctarus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/06
Posts: 2582

9/23/08 6:32:24 AM#39

Hi Stradden, you forget to ask him about the choppy/ lag/ hitches that quite alot of players are experiencing. And how come there's no reply from the Dev regarding this issue?

 

he can refer to Warhammer-alliance tech forum....

 

Thank you

 

 

RIP Orc Choppa

  SteamRanger

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/03
Posts: 919

I don''t have to know how to make a better game, I only need to know where the "CANCEL" button is!

9/23/08 7:25:12 AM#40
Originally posted by Mirandel

Expanded version of BG from WoW (as WAR is) is a fun game, but Mark's bragging reminds me of Brad McQuaid.


 

Funny, I thought this too. Portent of things to come?

"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift

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