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9/22/08 11:36:54 PM#41
Originally posted by Orthedos
Are you joking? Really as a consumer we have the right to complain. Because if we do not like something we do not have to buy it. The guy can spew all the crap he wants about us renting a game. Yes it is true its SOE's game. But they are not making the game to play it for only them selfs. Thats just nuts. They made it to make money. And as a customer to complain about the state of a game is because they enjoyed it at first, and it was then ruined. At your job have you ever had anyone come and complain to you about service or anything of that sort? Reason being is because they care about were they are going and they get upset when the service is bad. If they can help it they do not want to go else were. But if it is bad, and then complained about, and bad again then they will leave. They will leave and be gone for ever. As a consumer we have more power in marketing that you could imagine. We can change how things are done very easily. One person can start a giant boycott of something and get compaines closed. And from what ive heard about SWG, that is exactly what has happend. Why they are keeping it up is a shock. But they ruined a game that many fans enjoyed. Now less than what 20k players are subscribbed? Does that even cover their server/emplyee fees? Complaining is one thing, talking as if Sony has violated you by implementing the NGE is another thing. Some of the extremist talk as if Sony owe them a limb when the CU/NGE comes that is insane. Like I said above you can complain outside White House, but that is all you can do. You have NO rights to stop what is being voted inside the oval office. See the difference? I hate CU, I hate it so much I quit and never go back. I am on your side when it comes to SWG. BUT I know my limits, I will talk with friends about how things could have been better. I never talk as if I can control or influence Sony. Not by being just a subscriber to a minor game.
Like I said. If you try hard enough you can get things changed. Look at everything in history. Everything has changed mostly because 1 person thought it was bad. And then 2 other people thought it was bad. Then 10 other people thought it was band, and desided to work together to get things changed. Then you have thousands, then you have 100's of thousands. Now thats a bit of an extreme example for a video game, but it can be done. And like I said. It has been done to this game. Like someone said sapossive 10k-50k subs is a complete joke. Now to the people that say that SOE owes them something, well if they payed their subscription in for say a year. And the NGE comes along. That is called a bait and switch. The thing you agreement you click does not hold up in court because you can not look at the product before clicking it. Get a layer on that, and if you payed somewhere around $300 bucks. (dont know the limit) you can file a law suit, and get your money back. So yes, some have a reason why SOE owes them something. They stole money from them because they payed in full for a year. Others well they just need to quit, and just move on. They can voice their complaints but that is about it. And boycott SOE. They can not expect SOE to do anything. |
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9/22/08 11:53:10 PM#42
Originally posted by Obee Its way too late to rollback. No classic servers Probably because it wouldnt be profitable for one of the companies. LEC would have to donate the use of their IP--not profitable, or SOE would have to give up a larger chunk of the revenue to LEC because they donated their IP--not profitable for SOE then. Just taking a wild guess of coarse.
Classic servers wouldn't be profitable, but they would be a huge source of positive PR for SOE. The main problem is that the folks in charge honestly think the current game is better than the pre-NGE version. The NGE was inflicted on the game because the folks in charge (SOE folks, from those in charge of the dev team to SOe management) neither understood the game, nor did they like it. The figured that changing the game to be much more like the games they like (WoW) would make the game more fun and thus, more successful. Look at the reaction by the dev team every time they release a new major publish and there is no increase in subs, along with complaints on the OBoards. They get very pissy. The entire reason the game will never be anything more than the excrement it currently is, is because nobody with any influence is aware how awful the game truely is, which keeps them from making changes that the current game needs. They do know the old version was much more popular, but they don't understand why. Look at Dan Rubenfield blaming marketing for the failure of the NGE. He honestly thinks the NGE made the game better, but that marketing dropped the ball and caused the NGE to flop. The folks in charge of SOE most likely feel the same way, and have convinced the folks at LEC the same thing. The latest grasp at straws has the developers claiming they don't consider the game to be the NGE any longer, since such major changes as, uh, adding collection grinds and cookie cutter instances, hve substantially changed the game to no longer be similar to the NGE, aside from the poorly concieved classes, horrid combat system, poor animations, and complete lack of fun gameplay. Their new claim has worked out so well that the same folks who constantly defended the NGE as an improvement, are now claiming the game is better because the NGE is gone. I actually agree with the sentiment. SWG is no longer SWG: NGE, it is SWG: NGE with cookie cutter instances and collection grinds. Now, instead of playing a poorly thought out class with the single worst combat system in any MMO available, you can play a poorly though out class with the single worst combat system in any MMO available even longer, since you need to kill even more random critters for the collections and the instance MOBs have even more hit points than normal MOBs!. What an improvement!
If it turns out Bioware is making a SW mmo. And its a real MMO. If SWG is not around when it launches I think that means the contract between Bioware and LEC is an exclusive one, and why there are no classic servers. They would be 'technically" impossible to do? Who knows. Can't disagree with anything ya said. Although I doubt LEC is concerned with SOE reputation enough to allow them a chance to ruin the IP's reputation again....for free. They shoulda rolled back when we begged them to..it really did suck. We were angry and bitter for sure..but we weren't lying. It's too late for anything now. IF they really believed in the current version I think they would spend as much money as they could. They don't spend anything, so...I assume they're outta chances/ ideas. |
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Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi Its way too late to rollback. No classic servers Probably because it wouldnt be profitable for one of the companies. LEC would have to donate the use of their IP--not profitable, or SOE would have to give up a larger chunk of the revenue to LEC because they donated their IP--not profitable for SOE then. Just taking a wild guess of coarse.
Classic servers wouldn't be profitable, but they would be a huge source of positive PR for SOE. The main problem is that the folks in charge honestly think the current game is better than the pre-NGE version. The NGE was inflicted on the game because the folks in charge (SOE folks, from those in charge of the dev team to SOe management) neither understood the game, nor did they like it. The figured that changing the game to be much more like the games they like (WoW) would make the game more fun and thus, more successful. Look at the reaction by the dev team every time they release a new major publish and there is no increase in subs, along with complaints on the OBoards. They get very pissy. The entire reason the game will never be anything more than the excrement it currently is, is because nobody with any influence is aware how awful the game truely is, which keeps them from making changes that the current game needs. They do know the old version was much more popular, but they don't understand why. Look at Dan Rubenfield blaming marketing for the failure of the NGE. He honestly thinks the NGE made the game better, but that marketing dropped the ball and caused the NGE to flop. The folks in charge of SOE most likely feel the same way, and have convinced the folks at LEC the same thing. The latest grasp at straws has the developers claiming they don't consider the game to be the NGE any longer, since such major changes as, uh, adding collection grinds and cookie cutter instances, hve substantially changed the game to no longer be similar to the NGE, aside from the poorly concieved classes, horrid combat system, poor animations, and complete lack of fun gameplay. Their new claim has worked out so well that the same folks who constantly defended the NGE as an improvement, are now claiming the game is better because the NGE is gone. I actually agree with the sentiment. SWG is no longer SWG: NGE, it is SWG: NGE with cookie cutter instances and collection grinds. Now, instead of playing a poorly thought out class with the single worst combat system in any MMO available, you can play a poorly though out class with the single worst combat system in any MMO available even longer, since you need to kill even more random critters for the collections and the instance MOBs have even more hit points than normal MOBs!. What an improvement!
If it turns out Bioware is making a SW mmo. And its a real MMO. If SWG is not around when it launches I think that means the contract between Bioware and LEC is an exclusive one, and why there are no classic servers. They would be 'technically" impossible to do? Who knows. Can't disagree with anything ya said. Although I doubt LEC is concerned with SOE reputation enough to allow them a chance to ruin the IP's reputation again....for free. They shoulda rolled back when we begged them to..it really did suck. We were angry and bitter for sure..but we weren't lying. It's too late for anything now. IF they really believed in the current version I think they would spend as much money as they could. They don't spend anything, so...I assume they're outta chances/ ideas.
I would actually bet the folks at LEC think they are going to expand their market share by having BioWare's MMO coexist with SWG. When the SWG sub numbers plummet to the point where even they realize the game is past the point of no return, they will be gunshy about ever launching a new MMO before thier previous one is dead. It will be a shame too, since LEC is sitting on several IPs that would make excelent MMOs. Considering Deadmeat had told two different folks who post here that they had a CU server up and running, with the intention of opening a classic server, I doubt that LEC is preventing it from happening. According to Deadmeat, the reason they didn't open a CU server was because there were too many bugs and they didn't have the resources to fix them along side the NGE version of the game (he said a pre-CU server wan't even under consideration). If LEC is preventing a classic server, it is because they are unwilling to pay more than what they currently are to SOE to keep the current game live. If that is the case, I cannot honestly blame them for it, considering how SOE burnt them twice with their 'brilliant' CU and NGE.
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9/23/08 12:24:44 AM#44
You think Bioware would spend the extra cash to make it exclusive? I bet EA would. |
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I doubt they are spending any of their own money. LEC is financing the game, as they did with SWG during development. LEC is the publisher hiring out the game development to another development studio. There is definitely a profit sharing clause to the contract, which is why EA went after BioWare like they did. I doubt too much renegotiation went on after EA bought BioWare. I also bet the contract is much more in LEC's favor after their experience with SWG.
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9/23/08 12:41:04 AM#46
For all those above who try to quote legals, prove it in court, or forever remain a speculation. Class action? Money back? Try it. Till its proven, I remain skeptical. I seriously doubt any of you are lawyers. The lawyers I work with in my day to day business does not talk anywhere near that tone. They have qualifications, ifs, buts, maybes, and never a tone of certainty. The first thing I learn from a good solicitation lawyer I worked with over the past decade is "there is nothing certain before you go to court, during trial and even after sentence. Not till all routes and means of appeal are exhausted." If you think you can beat Sony in a lawsuite demonstrate it. Thinking and hold faith is nothing, this is not a church. Welcome to business world, where business morale selling a dime a gallon. |
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9/23/08 12:58:31 AM#47
In reading this thread....I stumbled onto someone who mentioned that SOE would never roll back solely for pride. I actually disagree with that...I think that 2 major factors contribute to it these days. 1: The NGE is actually better...but the loss of the intricate skill tree system ruined its potential and 2: They can no longer even come close to being able to afford to employ people to keep up with such intricate stuff in a way which would cause heavy growth. They dropped the ball, decided to ride it out past the inevitable storm (which they saw coming) in hopes that it would pass. It didn't. They lost too much return revenue, and now, they gotta play the cards they're dealt. There is great truth in that MMO's rely desperately on initial growth. All the backing for the game and its support comes from investors at first, and subscribers second. Within months past release, they are running on nothing but sub cash. You gots no sub cash...then its a downhill battle. At best, a company does good to simply tourniquet the wound and stop hemmorhaging. Growth past a position of loss usually fails. I can see how they were losing subs back in the glory days. Bugs and bland gameplay were always working against mainstream growth. They took a very ignorant step to correct the blandness of its gameplay. I'll actually credit them for a mild success...as I can easily see how the system they INTENDED to employ was very much better. Like most early MMO companies (and even still today, I'm looking at YOU AoC) they failed to understand the need to be very sluggish when releasing a new system. Working out small kinks makes for major improvement. They rushed a good ideal out too fast, and it dropped. More than anything....the loss of the skill tree was heavy. It contributed to most of what made the game die. You see, its not nessecarily that the skill tree was BETTER than classes. The REAL problem is...the skill tree WAS the game. The design of SWG was very weak on content. Most of the content relied heavily on player infused and created stuff...and almost half of that relied on the skill tree system to amuse people into grinding for a good portion of their time. In a true level/class system...the content is played out through carefully crafted dungeons and story...backed with obvious gear and reward progression. SWG did not have that. They moved the game into a level/class system without all the many things that make those games work. There weren't enough quests, not enough dungeons. Simply put, there wasn't enough actual level/class content to back it up. The game was still sitting in the design of player-made content, but without the "player-made" characters to support it. The social system that made the game bearable falls apart when you remove the basic social elements of non-combat skill trees. It was a rollercoaster now...but with very few interesting dives and turns. Rollercoaster games only work with lots of interesting spins on the trip.
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9/23/08 1:02:03 AM#48
I rememeber working for a game press site that covered SWG and then it came acros my desk the quote that made me think "Time to get out of this mess". Here was John Smedly thinkning SWG was invincible after being such a huge sucess for a few years and saying they "would not be swayed by threats of players" wgo apparently were going to close accounts and bad press. Too bad those that said they were closing accounts didn't make threats those were promises, and unlike SOE claiming falsely the NGE would improve the game when it destroyed it, the players delivered on thier promise and SWG went sink hole. The problem is from what I can see here is most of what SOE did with SWG was only done with the OK from Lucas Arts and with the game detriorating so badly and all the bad press I really do not think Lucas Arts was too happy signing off on content to allow SOE to do any more with the game and in some cases they may have revoked some content before contract deadline went thru. As much as I love to give SOE a good roasting or scolding I am still left to think about the fact of 2 companies one with experience in MMORPG and one only with consoles, when I think back to that day when I first saw the new profession selection screen of nice professions from over 40, and see how Mortal Combat 1 it looked, who really pulled rank and made that mess? Was it the MMORPG experienced comapny SOE or was it the Cosole experienced comapny Lucas Arts? Still loving to bash SOE when I can I still have to think about the fact that with the contracts and legal strings is SOE really responsible for this? It was a Lucas Arts Dev Julio Torres that first let this load of NS for a game revamp out not SOE and it was torres that was the first to be claiming how great of a game enhancement this was going to be, and since Lucas had the final say on what could and what could not be used in the game, how did Lucas manage to walk away free and not get bombarded with all this hate, I am sure we have enough to share between two companies and for sure if we loeaded Lucas Arts with this hate then we would see who the real villan was if the game gets a revert it was SOE of the plug gets pulled cuz Lucas cannot take it then we know it was Lucas. Just for the record not only did the game itself take a beating but lately I have seen the worst GMs *cough*CSRs*cough* representing this game than I ever had seen in any other game so be glad you left or you could get banned too for bitching out a GM *cough*CSR*cough* who cannot read a ticker that was submitted in plain english "P |
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Originally posted by Gishgeron
Your post might have merit, if the only change fro the pre-NGE to the NGE was the class system. The entire core game was changed, from the skill system to the combat system. The equipment system was changed from a player driven system to a loot based system. The combat system was changed from the crappy CU Wow rip-off system to the most horid combat system that can be found in an MMO. The classes were based on WoW's classes, but no thought was put into the role that each class would fill. Where crafting had a centeral role in the pre-NGE game, the usefullness and necessity of crafter equipment was removed from the game, while crafting was left as a class (with four sub classes no less), without any purpose. The current NGE game is not a quality game, even ignoring what the game used to be. The core game is broken. The only thing the current game has that the old game lacked is directed content. The problem is that the directed content the current NGE game has is flat out awful. The majority of it doesn't fit the IP, and all of it is repetative and poorly concieved. The only thing the current NGE version of the game has going for it is the Star Wars skin.
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9/23/08 2:26:15 AM#50
Originally posted by Gutboy
More than likely they probably aren't allowed to. I'm sure by now they know they fucked up big time because the original purpose of the nge was to get more and new subscribers, even if it meant losing some of the ones they had. The nge could be the greatest game of all time, but its still one of the biggest failures in the history of gaming. OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED! SEND FOR BACKUP! DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS! MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS!!! I'll pre order you SWTOR if you let me put my lightsaber in your sarlaac cave. |
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9/23/08 2:36:25 AM#51
Originally posted by nkryptik Most of the people I know that still play say the nge version of swg acknowledge it isn't as good as pre-cu or cu. They still have fun and play it for what it is but they know what they had was better. I think most people that have been around for awhile probaly feel this way. OH MY GOD WE'RE SURROUNDED! SEND FOR BACKUP! DIG IN DEFENSIVE POSITIONS! MAN YOUR NECKBEARDS!!! I'll pre order you SWTOR if you let me put my lightsaber in your sarlaac cave. |
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9/23/08 4:13:19 AM#52
Originally posted by Orthedos
Actually I as a consumer do have a right to tell any company how to do their business. I say it with my wallet. If they want what is in it they will listen. If they don't care, they won't. You can vote with your wallet and quit, I have the world will still move on agreed and Sony generally forgets your existence except as a suspended record in one of their million databases. Not true; they haven't forgotten about me. Infact they email me all the time and give me free play time on original SWG accounts while not giving free time to subscribers as I play. Seems like they love me. I feel so warm inside. Yes, I have quit it. But just because I have quit it doesn't mean I have no right to criticize or commend them for their actions. I choose to generally criticize. YOu can criticise but trying to pretend that you have a right to anything is daydreaming. I fixed your highlight mistake; I did not write the previous statement. I can criticise George Bush's policies, but do I get a vote when they decide on which army to send into Iraq? Thank for saying I can criticse. I am not pretending or daydreaming about any right I claim to have including to criticise. The U.S. constitution's first amendment garauntees it in fact. Bush...even Bush can't vote on which "army" to send. He or you if you were voted the president of the U.S. has only one "army" as an option to send; the U.S. army. I don't recall Bush voting Iceland's army to Iraq. This is a silly analogy dealing with government compared to a corporation for profit. They operate under completely seperate laws, rules, and accountability most notably the free market system. I will read any other analogy you offer based on corporations for profit. As far as me owning Sony and dream on, well if they want my money I do. If you are the kind rich enough to make a signficant investment in Sony, you will not be writing such bullshit Chapter C corporations have annual shareholder meetings. The rules are based on any laws in any jurisdictions they have articles of incorporations in. Usually these laws allow the meeting guidelines based on the corporations bylaws. Here is a copy of Sony's I found. It may not be up to date but it is good enough for illustration. Of particular interest is Voting Rights and Unit Share System. http://google.brand.edgar-online.com/EFX_dll/EDGARpro.dll?FetchFilingHtmlSection1?SectionID=6007703-455270-511578&SessionID=ZEWiWqRGPh9zi_7 At the time I wrote this Sony's stock was traded at $32.29 USD. Using their bylaws to give me a voting right I have to spend $3229 USD. I am sure there are people on these forums that spent more than this on a PC gaming rig. Believe me (or not) I can buy several dozen voting rights if I chose to. Of course I did mean what I said in the sense that if I am paying someone for a promised services or product they owe it to me to provide it to my satisfaction. I own them because if they don't provide they will not get my money. If they are taking my money they OWE it to me to provide to my satisfaction. I may be one, but SOE still wants my money. To prove this they keep giving me and others free play time with original subbed toons. They must want me very badly. How many current subscribers paid for their account time when I and others get to play for free? How much of their money was given to me by Sony? they are giving every one a free trial, True in the sense there is always an available 14 day trial for new accounts. Not true for every subbed account. Active ones get no free time only inactive for 30 days. they are airing ads. really where? That is marketing, you are just 1 of a few million targeted players, like a drop of water in the ocean. They want your money? Sure if you follow their rules. I agree, that is why they aren't getting my money even though they keep emailing me to try and get it. You are special? I don't recall saying I was special, although my mom thinks so =) As special as anyone paying a sub. And you stop there. Playing by their rules, taking their patches and changes, or leave. Again I did leave, I don't enjoy taking their patches. You have no further rights there. Again not true, U.S. constitution and all. That means, the first one quoted above is right. OK never said his opinion was wrong, I just disagree which I am allowed to do in open discussion as are you with me. All you are is just 1 in hundreds of thousands of subscriber, basically a Mr Nobody. Never said I was a somebody unless they, whomever they are want what is in my wallet. You get free trials in supermarkets, you get complementary tickets or discount coupons from magazines and McDonalds. If you feel proud b/c of that, hmm you are really very innocent indeed. When did I say I was proud of receiving any of what you described? Or maybe take a hard look at the mirror. Opps it cracked Who do you see? Me Superman? Nope just me...
Thanks for the reply. I never said I was special, but the fact that you took the time to respond to me has made me feel truly special. Thank you very much for that. Cheers =) "Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic |
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9/23/08 12:00:10 PM#53
Originally posted by Ginaz I've never heard of a current player (not counting the viral marketers that infest this site) who thinks the NGE is better than the pre-cu or cu game. And no, just because the NGE is the longest running version of the game doesn't make it the best version of the game. |
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9/23/08 12:13:49 PM#54
What is sad in my case is that even though I loathe what SOE did I would immediatly re-up and play on a pre-CU server if they made one. It was truley the most unique gaming experience I have ever had. It was addictive. The NGE cured me of that addiction which of course was good and bad. My wife of course thanks SOE for the NGE. ;) -------- "SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor |
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9/23/08 1:41:21 PM#55
Originally posted by Obee
Blixtev regularly includes snide comments toward the players in his posts. Deadmeat liked to take backhand swipes at the playerbase also and on a few occasions basically said the players were morons. With the change in SOE producers, the devs don't post as much as they did a few months ago. That is likely the main reason they aren't insulting the playerbase as much as before. I don't think it is so much that they care more about the current players, it is that they can't afford to lose too many more of them without LEC shutting the game down.
They have (referring to the jabroni's who have been working on SWG for the last 2/3 odd years) been like that from the beginning. Blixtev is a prime example of an "insert insult" his arrogance first began oozing out of every orifice of his body when he was put in charge of the Armour smith revamp during the Combat upgrade (if you can call it that) a few years ago. During that time he caused a lot of people too quit because he point blank ignored people's suggestions, was quite rude to a few when they pointed out flaws in the new design when we were testing the who build process on the test server etc and the AS correspondent quit who was an awesome guy as he realised that he was dealing with a bunch of c**k munchers and had been lied too. In short I kind of find it funny when people defend them as they are just a mass bunch of ego’s who couldn’t code for a decent game between them. I think they have gone passed the point of caring who still plays or even getting new subs in it's just damage limitation and keep rolling cash in while spending as little as possible on maintaining the game.
Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200 |
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9/23/08 3:44:37 PM#56
IMO, Blixtev is one of the worse things about the NGE, and that's saying a bunch. How do you top bad with worse? |
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9/23/08 3:46:48 PM#57
Originally posted by Esquire1980 John Smedly (sp?)??? |
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9/23/08 7:56:52 PM#58
Originally posted by Obee
I would imagine Bioware would have to purchase the use of the IP from LucasFilm even if that money came from their publisher LEC. If LEC wanted to develope themselves..they would prolly have to purchase the use of the IP from LucasFilm as well lol. IF LucasFilm wanted it to be exclusive..LEC couldnt change that. At least thats how I think it was explained...but your post sounds much more correct i have to admit. So your prolly right. |
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9/24/08 10:31:40 AM#59
Originally posted by Orthedos
What is wrong with his statement, 100% correct. You don't comprehend his mentality. What about his mentality? He stated something correct, and you have issues with it? You rented a movie, and half way through you disagree with the way the main actor treats his wife. So you send an email demanding a change in script and refilming, or you sue Fox or Disney? Try it. You only pay $15 for a month, and you think you have the rights to decide on how the game should be developed? Only $15 and you think you are god. Go count your contributions again. Its $15 and yes only a merge pitiful pathetic dismal $15. Stop feeling big about it. You are 100% entitled to feeling unhappy about the game. Quit it, like many of us did. That is all you can do. You have no say in SoE or whatever the new department is now called. They own the game, and you have the option to subscribe or quit. Sorry that is all you can do. As for owning Sony Corporation, dream on.
No I didn't like the way it was going and canceled |
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9/24/08 9:37:38 PM#60
Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi
I would imagine Bioware would have to purchase the use of the IP from LucasFilm even if that money came from their publisher LEC. If LEC wanted to develope themselves..they would prolly have to purchase the use of the IP from LucasFilm as well lol. IF LucasFilm wanted it to be exclusive..LEC couldnt change that. At least thats how I think it was explained...but your post sounds much more correct i have to admit. So your prolly right.
As much as I like Bioware due to games like NWN, NWN2, and the KotOR series, kind of worried about them hiring previous SOE VP's. If they hired SOE Austin VP's they could have hired dev's too. Article link: http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/press_releases/2006_03_15_Austin/. Please note that is a 2006 article. Hopefully, those are the only two SOE peeps they have hired. Makes me a bit nervous, who knows.... |
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