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Lord of the Rings Online

Lord of the Rings Online 

General Discussion  » Did LOTRO already "Jump the Shark" with Mines of Moria?

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51 posts found
  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  9/11/08 11:43:14 PM#1

I was thinking about picking up the LOTRO title and was reading articles from the LOTRO websites about the new expansion coming. I read a lot of controversal decisions made in the expansion. One of the major concerns of most fans is the introduction of the Rune Keeper class. Do you feel they have broke away from the original game design with the expansion?

 I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design.

I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.  

  duffalpha

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/04
Posts: 78

War is God''s way of teaching Americans geography

9/11/08 11:47:39 PM#2

The only people who play LOTRO are hardcore fanboys anyways. That game doesnt have any endgame at all, just a huge grindfest and OK PvE. But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG. It doesnt matter what they do their player base will eat it up.

Trust me though, if you have a special place in your heart for Tolkiens lord of the rings, dont let this game ruin that image for you.

  Cutedge

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 92

WTB sci-fi mmo PST

9/11/08 11:56:05 PM#3
Originally posted by qombi

I have decided not to choose this title because of the changes I seen coming. I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design.

I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.  


 

Saying that Rune Keeper is the same as a Hunter and a Ministrel is like saying that Hunters should get a refund in WOW because Mages do damage and Priests shuold get a refund because Druids can also heal.

As far as lore goes, this isn't any worse than any other lore break they've done. I don't think you should base your decision on people screaming in the forums because they don't like the RK.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  9/11/08 11:59:20 PM#4
Originally posted by Cutedge
Originally posted by qombi

I have decided not to choose this title because of the changes I seen coming. I for one feel bad for players who have chosen the hunter and the minstreal. There is a class coming that can do both just with some sort of a cool down. That is poor design in my opinion unless all your classes in a game can multi role. I also find it odd to have a ram/yak for travel in the mines. Why do developers always ruin games when expansions come along? It seems they all veer away from original game design.

I didn' t think LOTRO would do it on the first expansion. They should refund the players' money that chose to life time subscribe because they made false promises of sticking to the lore. This is all my opinions and are not facts. I am just so confused to why MMORPGs do this when it has potential of making old players leave and possibly will not attract new players.  


 

Saying that Rune Keeper is the same as a Hunter and a Ministrel is like saying that Hunters should get a refund in WOW because Mages do damage and Priests shuold get a refund because Druids can also heal.

As far as lore goes, this isn't any worse than any other lore break they've done. I don't think you should base your decision on people screaming in the forums because they don't like the RK.

 

I actually quit WoW because they butchered the class roles in the game, in my opinion WoW jumped the shark with the release of their first expansion. I don't play LOTRO but I can imagine this will be even worse. This class requires no cost to switch build, it is done on a cool down.

Also I don't know how you can make a comparison of what I wrote and WoW Hunters and Mages. Do mages fill two rolls? As far as I know, they both are dps classes.

  Cartography

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 334

9/12/08 12:02:35 AM#5

"We're slowly trying new things; the addition of the Rune-Keeper in Moria, a straightforward magic using class, is a pretty big step in that respect. It's not something that a pure Tolkien lore person would accept, it just couldn't exist in Middle-Earth. On the other hand, this is an RPG, it must exist."

 -Jeffrey Steefel, Executive Producer

 

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  9/12/08 12:05:03 AM#6

 If that is what was written then they have definitely "Jumped the Shark". Very sad for LOTRO players.

  Cartography

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 334

9/12/08 12:07:01 AM#7
Originally posted by qombi

 If that is what was written then they have definitely "Jumped the Shark". Very sad for LOTRO players.

was a quote from this interview:

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=228691

 

  Yeebo

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/05
Posts: 1360

9/12/08 1:11:12 AM#8

That interview had me worried too.  However the design of the Runekeeper has since been clarified by the developers.  It  isn't going to be any more lorebreaking than the Loremaster or Minstrel:

www.lotro.com/article/585

A strict lore grognard would not be accept Loremasters summoning giant glowing red Ents  to stomp on their foes, or smiting their enemies with beams of light from the heavens either.  Runemaster won't be any worse than that. 


I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.

  Professor78

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/05
Posts: 592

9/12/08 1:27:15 AM#9

 I would imagine that most Hardcore Tolkien Fans would already have left the game, or  not started in the first place, most people still seem to compare the game to the Films, but saying that, if they read the books its not a hundred miles off. 

But the Books have created arguably the best fantasy world there is, and imo that is duplicated very well in LOTRO. But players today don't settle for a few classes, they want more.....Just woke up so can't think of how to write to get my point accross yet....

But for the poster that said its a grindfest.....WTH

I constantly have a full quest book full of group quests, solo quests, crafting quests and then deeds, Trait bonuses, reputation and the class specific book/page collection quests to give extra skills. Its the only game that I have played that I have not had to grind XP to lvl!

Its personal pref but for me best MMO for PVE there is atm.

Core i7(d0)on Foxconn Bloodrage, 6gb Tri DDR3,GTX 680, 120gb OCZ Vertex 2 SSD, 640gb Caviar Black, Windows 7, HAF 932 case, 24" Full HD Dell, Logitech G19, Rat 9, 50mb BB.

  Mrchompy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/07
Posts: 59

9/12/08 2:32:03 AM#10

Major grind? Are you kidding me?

Right now the max is level 50, fairly easy to get.

As far as deeds/title/ect. grinding, it's a decent way to have something to do when you're just trying to earn cash when you're level 50. Most of the lower levels of deeds can be finished as you level to 50, then the higher levels you can gradually knock out.

As far as reputation grinding, it's fairly easy, compared to WoW. Met too many people in WoW who "had" to do their dailies.

There are raids in the game as well, plus they have made the max level armor set easier to get for those who loath raiding with the vendor system in Rivendell.

I compare it to the biggest game out there, WoW, like this:

Improving your charactor after max LvL: WoW: All through gear, earned by raids/high instances PvP.Some epics able to be crafted.

LoTRO: In addition to gear through raids, crafting and PvMP, there are also traits which can be finished.If you choose to grind them, your charactor will be somewhat better than someone who didn't.

In addition, many LoTRO players are "casual" players, who enjoy non-combat stuff such as housing, the outfit system,the music system ect. Hopefully more hobbies will be added soon.

Personally I'm not too concerened about the rune-keeper. Just no intrest being one.

What sounds great to me is the legendary items that are to be intoduced. They gain experience as they are used, can be broken down, added to.....man that sounds good to me.

  winter

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2236

9/12/08 2:44:54 AM#11
Originally posted by qombi

 If that is what was written then they have definitely "Jumped the Shark". Very sad for LOTRO players.


 

 How can you even say that when you haven't ever played the game? Don't you think maybe we who actually play the game should decide rather then you? ( ie. some guy who doesn't play and appears to be just trying to troll and say how sad the game is for us?) 

 Not trying to attack you but I'd respect your opinion more if it was based on something more then second hand info you read from unknown poster XYZ on the net.

  DonnieBrasco

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/06
Posts: 1798

Achiever 80.00%
Explorer 60.00%
Killer 46.67%,
Socializer 13.33%

9/12/08 3:39:46 AM#12
Originally posted by winter
Originally posted by qombi

 If that is what was written then they have definitely "Jumped the Shark". Very sad for LOTRO players.


 

 How can you even say that when you haven't ever played the game? Don't you think maybe we who actually play the game should decide rather then you? ( ie. some guy who doesn't play and appears to be just trying to troll and say how sad the game is for us?) 

 Not trying to attack you but I'd respect your opinion more if it was based on something more then second hand info you read from unknown poster XYZ on the net.


 

/QFT.

Prett much conveiled troll post. Why in the hell would someone worry about a game who did never play it and have already decided not to play it. Second poster is ever worse, demonstrating a full-scale ignorance about the game, just bashing for the sake of bashing. Almost worth a report :)

DB

Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.

  cogollo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/08
Posts: 8

9/12/08 3:53:11 AM#13
Originally posted by duffalpha

The only people who play LOTRO are hardcore fanboys anyways. That game doesnt have any endgame at all, just a huge grindfest and OK PvE. But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG. It doesnt matter what they do their player base will eat it up.

Trust me though, if you have a special place in your heart for Tolkiens lord of the rings, dont let this game ruin that image for you.

 

Sorry here, but I completely disagree with this opinion.

I am a casual MMORPG player (play 4-5 hours per week on average), and prefer and play much more pencil-and-paper RPGs. I'm also a big fan of Lord of the Rings (the books), and I'm 30+ with little time to waste in brainless games.

Having introduced myself, let me say:

1. I loved the movies, though they are not 100% faithful to the games... but hey, it's a movie, not a book.

2. I am enjoying LOTRO enormously. Again, it's not 100% faithful to the books... but hey, it's a MMORPG, not a book: graphics are beautiful, most players behave as adults, the texts introducing the quests are long and interesting, deepening LOTR lore and sometimes are even funny/witty, some areas of the game, like "Old Forest", are amazing and have the feeling of an "old school" game...

 

I also played WoW in my time (left it at level 30 or so) and I found it much more immature and grindfest than LOTRO (my opinion again here).

Also, LOTRO doesn't force you to play in a Fellowship, but it definitely nudges you toward it... and once you start playing in a Fellowship your realize it's  worth it, and the tactical possibilities when playing in one make the game even more interesting (again, my opinion).

Even if it's true (and I don't think it will be) I don't care about the Runekeeper being a mix of Minstrel and Loremaster... I play this game for fun, not as a kind of "second job"... and this feeling of having to play a game as a kind of "second job" is what made me quit WoW... too much stress, man (again, my opinion/life experience).

 

If you want precisely balanced experiences, try Mathematics or Chess.

  Papadam

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 2127

9/12/08 5:48:54 AM#14

Nice to see that logicbox9 have taken over Openedge1s role of being full-time hater of LotrO now :)

Every expansion brings changes to games... Some people dont like change and will whine about anything!

LotrO is the best PvE MMO out right now and Mines of Moria will most probably make it even better!

If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

  Lazer7

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 91

If silence is golden, then you must be really poor. ~Lazer7

9/12/08 6:11:49 AM#15

Please remember that this game is based on the lore from the books. They do not have the rights from the movies, nor would that do them or us any good. The books have some huge differences that the movie added, changed, or just left out.

There was magic in the Middle Earth, and Gandalf spoke of how he was taught it. There was those that held runes, and they kept the ways of the ancient tongues. There was things that was no thought of as magic, though to some in Middle Earth, it was mystifying to them.

Keep in mind, with only the lore of the movies, you are casting a false judgement, and  sometimes making false statements when you speak of these things.

The Yaks/rams are a bit much... Please please please get rid of them.

  Cartography

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 334

9/12/08 8:05:08 AM#16
Originally posted by Papadam

Nice to see that logicbox9 have taken over Openedge1s role of being full-time hater of LotrO now :)

Every expansion brings changes to games... Some people dont like change and will whine about anything!

LotrO is the best PvE MMO out right now and Mines of Moria will most probably make it even better!

 

Feel free to call me a hater, because I pretty much dislike LoTRO now... however, I posted a quote from the exec. producer... the developer diary did nothing to make the lore fans think that this class is not lore-breaking... you can put lipstick on a mage and call it a rune-keeper, but it's still a mage... but hey, if you are cool with generic fantasy lightning zaps, nice...

 

There is literally thousands of posts on the official forums about this, there are hundreds about broken promises from Turbine, when they stated they would never add magic and only stray from the lore when it was absolutely necessary from a gameplay perspective (you need a healer in this game, so MInstrel it is)... LM skill descriptions aren't bad, I think most lore-freak  get mad at the animations... but what part of adding a mage class is absolutely necessary... it's absolutely not, and it's just a feeble attempt at Turbine to bolster some more subs from people who play the thousands of other generic MMOs. Where in the books did a dwarf or elf zap a monster with lightning from it's fingers? Gandalf didn't even do it. IMO, this game very much jumped the shark, just because you love it and have tons of fun doesn't mean it didn't.  I'ts a slippery slope, and in the end Turbine will do more injustice to the Tolkien experience than anyone else...

  User Deleted
9/12/08 11:37:23 AM#17
Originally posted by duffalpha

The only people who play LOTRO are hardcore fanboys anyways. That game doesnt have any endgame at all, just a huge grindfest and OK PvE. But all the PvE is designed to be played solo so why not just go play a GOOD RPG. It doesnt matter what they do their player base will eat it up.

Trust me though, if you have a special place in your heart for Tolkiens lord of the rings, dont let this game ruin that image for you.

 

Well since we're talking broad-based, subjective generalizations, I'll make one of my own.

Anyone who would spend time in forums for a game they clearly do not like so they can bash it is a troll.

See? Works both ways :)

 

 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17123

9/12/08 11:40:45 AM#18
Originally posted by Yeebo

That interview had me worried too.  However the design of the Runekeeper has since been clarified by the developers.  It  isn't going to be any more lorebreaking than the Loremaster or Minstrel:

www.lotro.com/article/585

A strict lore grognard would not be accept Loremasters summoning giant glowing red Ents  to stomp on their foes, or smiting their enemies with beams of light from the heavens either.  Runemaster won't be any worse than that. 



 

I think you guys take things way to literally in these games. They are not summoning Giant Ents. It's just an artistic representation. I imagine if there was magic and that one could wield it, there would be clues that only that person could see, swirling energy ro somewhat.

There is a difference between artistic representation of game mechanics, the inclusion of mmo conventions such as trainers and auction houses and including things that just wouldn't fit in middle earth.

To that end, Tolkien never mentioned anything about toilets but as we know they must have existed.

Of course you wouldn't include them in a game as there is no reason.

There is Trade but the game makers have to include a way to incorporate trade within the context of a game. So sure, auction house is not lore specific but neither is any other mechanism for trade. However, if you are going to have nations it stands to reason that there is going to be some sort of trade. Since the game is not about trade there really wasn't a need for Tolkien to put it in.

Therefore, when all is said and done, I don't have problems with the game makers adding things that allow the game to be a game.

But there is a difference between adding some lights or graphics for artistic effect or adding mechanisms that allow for the game to flow like a game and adding classes or races that would never exist in the game world.

  User Deleted
9/12/08 11:51:24 AM#19
Originally posted by logicbox9
Originally posted by Papadam

Nice to see that logicbox9 have taken over Openedge1s role of being full-time hater of LotrO now :)

Every expansion brings changes to games... Some people dont like change and will whine about anything!

LotrO is the best PvE MMO out right now and Mines of Moria will most probably make it even better!

 

Feel free to call me a hater, because I pretty much dislike LoTRO now... however, I posted a quote from the exec. producer... the developer diary did nothing to make the lore fans think that this class is not lore-breaking... you can put lipstick on a mage and call it a rune-keeper, but it's still a mage... but hey, if you are cool with generic fantasy lightning zaps, nice...

 

There is literally thousands of posts on the official forums about this, there are hundreds about broken promises from Turbine, when they stated they would never add magic and only stray from the lore when it was absolutely necessary from a gameplay perspective (you need a healer in this game, so MInstrel it is)... LM skill descriptions aren't bad, I think most lore-freak  get mad at the animations... but what part of adding a mage class is absolutely necessary... it's absolutely not, and it's just a feeble attempt at Turbine to bolster some more subs from people who play the thousands of other generic MMOs. Where in the books did a dwarf or elf zap a monster with lightning from it's fingers? Gandalf didn't even do it. IMO, this game very much jumped the shark, just because you love it and have tons of fun doesn't mean it didn't.  I'ts a slippery slope, and in the end Turbine will do more injustice to the Tolkien experience than anyone else...

 

You have to temper all that - in any kind of entertainment - books, movies, games, music, etc. - with the fact that many people have a very unjustified and unreasonable sense of entitlement. Somehow because they're playing the game (or reading the book, or listening to the CD, etc), they feel that it should cater specifically to them - what they expect, what they want, etc.

When it doesn't deliver on their expectations of what it "should be" or what it "should do" or how it "should have ended", etc. they feel betrayed, say the given product failed, the creators sold out, etc. etc.

Some will say "they don't listen to the players", which is really just saying "I said I wanted this, and they didn't do it". People need to temper that with this, self-evident bit of knowledge:

Players will typically ask for changes that benefit the class they happen to be playing, regardless of how it affects others, what impact it has on content, etc. Turbine has to make changes that will benefit many... not only the most vocal select few.

The incredible amount of ignorance and arrogance displayed by many who believe they somehow know better how to develop a game than people who have spent years doing so speaks well enough for itself.

That these people can then post on forums and share their ignorance/arrogance with the rest of us just adds insult to injury.

When Turbine, or any game developer, makes decisions, they're not just made willy-nilly, nor in a vacuum. In LoTRO's case, they have to pass everything they do by Tolkien Ent. So, agree or disagree all you want, if Tolkien approves it and finds it doesn't "bend the lore" beyond acceptable limits, then who is anyone else to say otherwise?

In short... People need to get over themselves, realize their opinions aren't sacred and their expectations aren't law.

Turbine will do what they feel is best for the game. If they're right, great. If they're wrong, then they change things as necessary.

So far, all indications are - cries of the attention-starved few notwithstanding - they're doing a fine job of it.

 

 

 

  Papadam

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 2127

9/12/08 11:51:29 AM#20
Originally posted by Sovrath


 I think you guys take things way to literally in these games. They are not summoning Giant Ents. It's just an artistic representation. I imagine if there was magic and that one could wield it, there would be clues that only that person could see, swirling energy ro somewhat.

There is a difference between artistic representation of game mechanics, the inclusion of mmo conventions such as trainers and auction houses and including things that just wouldn't fit in middle earth.

To that end, Tolkien never mentioned anything about toilets but as we know they must have existed.

Of course you wouldn't include them in a game as there is no reason.

There is Trade but the game makers have to include a way to incorporate trade within the context of a game. So sure, auction house is not lore specific but neither is any other mechanism for trade. However, if you are going to have nations it stands to reason that there is going to be some sort of trade. Since the game is not about trade there really wasn't a need for Tolkien to put it in.

Therefore, when all is said and done, I don't have problems with the game makers adding things that allow the game to be a game.

But there is a difference between adding some lights or graphics for artistic effect or adding mechanisms that allow for the game to flow like a game and adding classes or races that would never exist in the game world.


 

I have argued alot about this on the EU forum. In my opinion the RK is not worse than the Lore master or minstrel they just use different sources for their "magic" (none of it is really magic like in most fantasy)... Both LMs and minstrels can do some crazy stuff that doesnt seem to fit very well in ME and this is just what the RK is aswell..

If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd

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