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9/17/08 2:32:41 AM#41
Originally posted by WisebutCruel Actually were that the case then there would be no reason to recruit the "PvPer" at all, he becomes the gankee as he does not has the rescources nor anything else to offer the "carebear" for his product.... |
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9/17/08 2:59:22 AM#42
Originally posted by FatalFX Hi Shadowmage, Crusades will be played on a single shard server.
I hate to say it, but your game wont last then. Go look at other games with separate servers (PVE, PVP, RPPVE, etc) And then look at the population of the PVP servers. These so called PVPers asking for the ultimate FFAPVP game are so full it it's beginning to drive me crazy. When the going gets tough or there is no one to grief, those PVPers head on over to the PVE servers. You need to force gamers to have respect for one another. How you do that I have no clue, but in my eyes the only way you can have both types of players in question to gel well would be to force the namecallers and acronym geniuses to understand that you can't have one without the other. Currently they don't understand that. Which is why they don't have a game to call home.
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9/17/08 3:39:59 AM#43
Originally posted by ZDPhoenix I feel that way often now. I was a PvP'er with UO, I PvP'ed in WoW and tried my hand in EQII for awhile; and found elements in each I liked. The PvE in all the games was awesome by itself, and complicated when I tried to do both (minus EQ2). Trying to mix the two caused me to have a less enjoyable time.
I want to see a strict PvP game come out that doesn't end up sucking liuke Fury did. For right now, I go off shooters for my PvP fix. I want to see a WoW type of MMO that doesn't force me to Raid or PvP to get decent "heroic quality" gear.
Check out Darkfall. It's basically UO2 meets DAOC. Huge sandbox world with 6 races in 3 factions supporting both PVP and PVE, with no auto-targeting, no auto-attacks, no friendly-fire, full looting, FPS-style real-time combat.
Huge potential for both PVP and PVE, since every item in game can be player-crafted.
Carebear is a stupid word because everyone does some PVE, and stupid because PVP players whine as much if not more than PVEers.
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9/17/08 4:03:33 AM#44
Originally posted by javac
Check out Darkfall. It's basically UO2 meets DAOC. Huge sandbox world with 6 races in 3 factions supporting both PVP and PVE, with no auto-targeting, no auto-attacks, no friendly-fire, full looting, FPS-style real-time combat.
Huge potential for both PVP and PVE, since every item in game can be player-crafted.
Carebear is a stupid word because everyone does some PVE, and stupid because PVP players whine as much if not more than PVEers.
Yes, but you dont see too many pvp'ers whining that there shouldn't be any pve at all which is one of the things that gets me the most : pve'ers saying that games shouldn't have pvp at all when most pvp in current mmo's is consensual. |
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tvalentine
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 4/01/06
“The things you own end up owning you.” -Tyler Durden |
9/17/08 4:18:06 AM#45
Originally posted by bigbeardxl
I hate to say it, but your game wont last then. Go look at other games with separate servers (PVE, PVP, RPPVE, etc) And then look at the population of the PVP servers. These so called PVPers asking for the ultimate FFAPVP game are so full it it's beginning to drive me crazy. When the going gets tough or there is no one to grief, those PVPers head on over to the PVE servers. You need to force gamers to have respect for one another. How you do that I have no clue, but in my eyes the only way you can have both types of players in question to gel well would be to force the namecallers and acronym geniuses to understand that you can't have one without the other. Currently they don't understand that. Which is why they don't have a game to call home.
EVE does just fine with one server .... i have no clue what you are talking about.
Playing: EVE Online |
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9/17/08 7:41:44 AM#46
Originally posted by bigbeardxl
I hate to say it, but your game wont last then. Go look at other games with separate servers (PVE, PVP, RPPVE, etc) And then look at the population of the PVP servers. These so called PVPers asking for the ultimate FFAPVP game are so full it it's beginning to drive me crazy. When the going gets tough or there is no one to grief, those PVPers head on over to the PVE servers. You need to force gamers to have respect for one another. How you do that I have no clue, but in my eyes the only way you can have both types of players in question to gel well would be to force the namecallers and acronym geniuses to understand that you can't have one without the other. Currently they don't understand that. Which is why they don't have a game to call home.
Thankyou Bigbeard for speaking for the entire gaming community. Its so good to see that you have predicted the downfall of Crusades based on the failures of other PvE games that have been kind enough to add a little PvP server as a sidethought. In other words...... You're talking a load of complete crap! I think FatalFX can safely ignore this unfounded naysaying. As Tvalentine has pointed out EVE is doing just fine with one single server. Why would Crusades need to have multiple servers if there is only one ruleset? I wholeheartedly support Crusade being on one server and think it can work perfectly well. I agree though that a good system will need to be put in place that allows players to do as they choose within the boundaries or rules of the game. A player who wants to go round killing people indescriminately should be punished by the game system. For example if a player joins a faction they could "insure" themselves (or get automatic insurance) so that if another player from their own faction attacks them then the insured player would have the option of inflicting certain forms of retribution on that player. This could come in the form of: Criminal points that upon reaching a certain level cause the ganker to be ejected from the faction and become hunted by its npc police force and its players as well as having a criminal record that other potential "employers" will be able to see. Summon a police unit to hunt them down and kill them with extreme penalties such as destruction of items on the character or major loss of skillpoints/money etc.......oh and add criminal points on as well for good measure. Permanently delete the gankers character from the server (just kidding). Factions could also form alliances just like they do in EVE and the above rules could be applied to anyone attacking someone in a friendly faction too. This kind of system would encourage good relations between players and give a reason for roleplaying. It would also weed out the more childish and stupid players who just want to kill people for no reason as they would rapidly find themselves becoming hated by all the decent players and no faction would be willing to take them in with their criminal records. Then they would be forced to turn to other criminals for help......which of course they wouldnt be able to truly trust as they would keep getting shot in the back. These criminal factions would have a hard time surviving as no other decent faction would want to ally themselves with them. Basicly the game system itself would weed out and lump all the bad players together and effectively shove them off to the side where they can shoot each other in the head all day long to their hearts content. Of course they would hate it and they would complain but it wont matter because they are criminal scum so they get what they deserve. Meanwhile all the decent law abiding players can get on with playing the game properly and occasionally hunting the criminal scum for amusement |
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Briansho
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 3/05/06
Functionless Art is Simply Tolerated Vandalism...We Are The Vandals. |
9/17/08 8:54:33 AM#47
Lets say a game is developed and released featuring heavy PvP elements and little PvE why cry? I could understand people being upset if a game is PvE and later the developers put in PvP. Why whine if the game already had PvP from the start? I know gameplay might change but why whine about people "ganking" if people know a game is released with PvP? I don't see people whining about Shadowbane and EVE. Although the carebear brigade did invade Shadowbane for a long time whining about no quests. Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL! |
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9/17/08 12:26:09 PM#48
I regularly whine about Eve for it's poor PvP and bad PvE. Both are substandard. (I also used to whine about it's unstable servers. and then marvel at them all at the same time).
Now Planetside, there was game with good PvP and no PvE. |
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9/17/08 2:18:17 PM#49
Now, now children. I think its time for everyone here to calm down. The goes for PvP'ers and carebears alike. There is no need to get into an argument on whether or not the carebears and PvP'ers can get along. As King, I will personally ensure you all that the PvP'ers and my people will get along in a harmonious manner. I promise you my children. On the face of my father and the face of my son, I promise you from the bottom of my heart we all will GET ALONG!!!
KingCarebear Lord of the Television |
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Originally posted on Allakhazam interview The current speculation is that PvP'rs may not survive. I hope to see the final score settled. It is long overdue. Thank you all for your replies, thoughts and ideas regarding this topic.
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10/15/08 9:42:22 AM#51
I think that the biggest problem facing Crusades is the fact that players who dont wish to PvP are basically forced into doing so if they wish to get from point A to point B. Someone brought up DAoC as an example with their RvR combat but the big difference here is that DAoC didnt make the RvR mandatory. The RvR battlegrounds were in locations that were separate from the main cities. In Crusades, it is sounding like in order to go to any and all planets then you will most likely have to fight your way through the masses of Gankers blockading these planets. IMO, this doesnt sound well thought out. How would this even be acceptable in a real life situation? You would have pirates in orbit able to blast down any ship that crosses their path? There is no law in the future? There is no shipping lanes that are protected? In free space I can see the possibilities of pirates attacking other ships, but really, in a planets own orbit you honestly think that there wouldnt be at least one secured shipping lane that has gun turrents and ship patrols all around to make sure that precious cargo arrives at the planet safe? Personally, I would rather ship my cargo to a planet that I know has safe conduct but pays a bit less instead of a planet that has no orbital law and has a great chance of me losing my cargo even if that planet pays a better price.
With that said, a non-PvP player/ Casual PvP player most likely wont be playing a FFA PvP game anyway so what I mentioned above probably wont matter much. |
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Beatnik59
 Novice Member
Joined: 11/23/05
"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977." Now Playing: |
10/15/08 1:53:48 PM#52
I think the dichotomy is wrong. As others have said here, PvP and crafting need not be mutually opposed. Not only that, but if you look at similar games (EVE and SWG), the best crafters and the best PvPers were often part of the same guild. To me, the dichotomies at stake are as follows: Small, family or theme style guilds versus large, game hopping professionalized guilds Caual "in it for the fun" players versus professionalized "in it for the status" players Text-only players versus mandatory ventrillo players Roleplayers versus powergamers Slow players versus grinders See, the Crusades staff is under the impression that the players who PvP aren't in the same circles as the players who create gear. What they don't realize is that the big, professionalized, mandatory Teamspeak/Vent, hardcore, multi-platform clans have the out of game organizational potential to do both, and do both at a level that casual, roleplaying, slow playing individuals will never match. So to me, the biggest challenge for a game like Crusades is to ensure that the game gives line subscribers enough reasons to play, knowing full well that professional online gaming clans are going to dominate in all aspects of play.
__________________________ "...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." "It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." |
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10/15/08 5:38:17 PM#53
FIXT |
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10/15/08 10:03:14 PM#54
If neutral zones, whether neutral faction enforced or PvP prohibited, existed, it might help prevent the forced PvP from being overly abused. Whether these are free trade centers or starter areas doesn't matter, it gives everyone a place to go when they really do not want to PvP. Either eliminate the resource spawns in those areas or make them low end starter materials to prevent players from exploiting the safe havens. As others have posted, if the game is centered around PvP conflict, then non-PvP'ers already know this when they start the game and know what to expect. Offering safe havens helps offset tensions and a bad rep for a gank-fest game. As for who whines the most, that has to be the PvP'ers. Most of the forums I read for crafting are about making crafted gear equal to looted gear or to allow crafters the ability to upgrade looted gear. Either that or to fix broken or worthless crafting skills. When it comes to PvP'ers, every class forum seems to be a flame war where people are saying their classes need to be enhanced to make them balanced in PvP and every other class is posting there saying how they are either lame or already over-powered. Crafting forums I will visit to see what mats I need for items, or to see what might be released in future updates. I do not visit class forums due to having to sort thru 3 pages of begging for enhancements flame fests just to find one post on how to deal with class downfalls or gear drops. |
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Originally posted by Alindale
Good points and suggestions Alindale. We appreciate solution ideas. Would you mind posting some of these on our wish list? |
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10/31/08 12:55:41 PM#56
Originally posted by Alindale
I don't agree, people complaining about crafting balance are doing so because they see that skill as being marginalized by the system and not because they want to craft stuff for PvP. It doesn't matter whether you PvP or not, but if you have to invest time and effort into crafting, you expect to get something out of it - you don't expect to have someone who can farm an instance get better gear than you can make even after spending obscene amounts of time crafting. As for the whole PvP versus PvE discussion, I've played both sides of the fence and I've come to a few conclusions over the years and different games I've played: 1) Gankers will take every advantage they can get in PvP, whether it is fair or not - such as attacking you while you are attacking another mob, or abusing glitches to get a kill above their ability. Even if they are unable to 'con' you, they will take whatever steps are neccessary to get an advantage over you, fully devoting their time to such endevors, while those that wish to enjoy the game and take in other aspects of the game will be at some point or another vulnerable (even when they think they are not). 2) If you are trying to accomplish something completely unrelated to PvP it is jarring to be interrupted, slowed down, and possibly killed by someone who wants to show off his epeen. Jarring in a not so good of a way most of the time - and that most of time out weighs any of the joys you get from the few times where you are able to put your boot to the jerks face, or where you deserved it. 3) Total open FFAPvP does not work - for open PvP to work there has to be real consequences to your actions, and as long as this is just a game there will NEVER be any real consequences to those who want to be a jackarse. You can say what you want about groups and forcing the carebears to group together, but in practice it does not work. Name a game where it has worked before? I can name a few where it hasn't (cough, uo, cough). 4) Newbs need to be protected by the system - not by other players. If not, then you will have a lot of cancellations and frustrated players. You cannot put pros up against newbs within a system of progression and expect the newbs to have fun. You have to be relatively safe while you are learing the system and learning how to interact with the world so as to not frustrate you more than is neccessary. 5) Putting meaningful consequences for PvP death is a bad thing. Because of point #1, those that are not intending to PvP will be the ones paying for this. For this reason on games that have severe penalties, you find people not taking valuable gear with them. This devalues the whole system and de-incentivizes the whole economy. If you need examples look to again UO and more recently Pirates of the Burning Sea. Players wouldn't normally go to port battles with their biggest ships since their cost of replacement was exponentially higher and would be lost if they died in battle. Putting these consequences in does nothing to deter griefers, and instead serves to fuel their ability to make people hate them and the game. In short, when you have PvP in a game that is not solely about the PvP action (even there is support options such as crafting), if you want your players to enjoy the game you'll need to focus the PvP action around PvP objectives and areas, and leave the other aspects of the game not directly touched by PvP. That doesn't mean that you have to restrict your PvP to just killing other players on an open field, you can still have mobs and PvEish content, but you need to focus that content to be part of the PvP experience. PvE content in general should be PvP free (or provided as consentual pvp). You need to have a way to experience the non-PvP content in an environment safe from PvP without having to rely on other people. As for the Crusades and their particular implementation - I don't know how well that will work, but I suspect it will not work so well. Players that want to trade and craft will get raided by those who wish to grief. Those who grief will at some point or another have bigger/better/faster ships, unless perhaps you have specs where even at low levels you can outrun any ship that could kill you - and if that was the case you'd have other problems in the game design. Yes some times there will be banding together to fend off the pirates, and the battle mentioned will happen at some point - but the rest of the time its either going to be nothing going on or more likely it'll be a group of hungry gorillas making sticky with a single ewe. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong - maybe there'll be some protections in place to keep that from happening? Edit: What I wish to see is a result of PvP area fighting spilling over in PvE terms - ie. you capture an enemy supply base in a PvP zone and in the neighboring enemy PvE area a group of NPC mobs spawns that patrol? |
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10/31/08 1:30:11 PM#57
Carebears won't play this game. If they do, they are PvP'ers, not Carebears. There will never again be Carebears vs PvP'ers in MMO's, because carebears can go to an MMORPG where they don't have to PvP, and that's the end of that.
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10/31/08 1:47:33 PM#58
I just want a non instanced nor factioned, FFA PvP group oriented with big team objectives to develop politics and drama and with sage rules and consequences. Non dependant on the fast fingers ability, more focused on group and massive groups strategies and tactics. Totaly UNbalanced by classes on the 1vs1. It have to be done In a seamless world. Fully of great PvE activity. Whitout the need for two different sets of equipment. Where crafting and economy its something Well this is my dreamed MMORPG i dont see in it this difference between PvPers and PvEers. I will love a MMORPG where all the letters of the word have this meaning. But i know it isn't what the majority want, this thread its just a prouve of it. |
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Arcken
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 8/14/04
Lets face it, MMOs today are turning into single player console games with a chat box included. |
10/31/08 1:49:56 PM#59
Originally posted by Trissa You just described Shadowbane. Graphically speaking, one of the worst out there, but no other game offers even a remotely similar experience. |
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10/31/08 1:55:06 PM#60
Originally posted by Arcken You just described Shadowbane. Graphically speaking, one of the worst out there, but no other game offers even a remotely similar experience.
Shadowbane was on hte right track, but had some serious flaws. Point n' click movement, and horrible lag for starters. The biggest flaw was it took too much grinding to build a city, and it was to easy to tear a city down. Who wants to work for week or more to build a city, and then watch it be torn down in an evening? That's no fun.
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Originally posted by FatalFX 
