Originally posted by TdogSkal

The burden of proof lays with the people saying Darkfall is fake or a hoax.   We have all the proof we need Darkfall is real, its up to the Naysayers to prove other wise.
 

Just like its up to the naysayers to prove God is not real, its up to the naysayers to prove that Darkfall is fake or a hoax.

As far as the naysayers having proof?  I have not seen one piece of this so called proof in any post on MMORPG.com since I have been a memember. 

No actually, that's a logical fallacy. Go look it up, please. The burden of proof in any situation rests on the party trying to prove something into existence, not on the party trying to prove it doesn't exist. I don't want to get into an argument about theology, but if I were to theoretically not believe in God, then there is no way for me to actually prove that he doesn't exist. Anything I do can be reasoned with. For example, if I were to say "God doesn't exist because you cannot see him," you could just respond "God maybe invisible to the human eye." I cannot counter that. This creates a logical fallacy. What does this mean? Since it is literally impossible to prove something into unexistence, then you have to prove it into existence. It is a rule of language.

How does this relate to Darkfall? I cannot prove that Darkfall doesn't exist. It is impossible. This means that you have to provide the evidence of its existence. What evidence do you have? Some words by developers and 17 minutes of combat with almost no UI shown and no sandbox elements evident. That is not Darkfall. You have to provide actual concrete evidence. A beta test. A gameplay video that shows an actual sandbox game with expanded UI.

Arguing against this point merely shows your ignorance, not only in the gaming sense, but in language and logic as a whole. You must provide proof, because I cannot.

---------------------------
Said by someone above me:
To the Fanbois: We have every right to bash the trolls and make them eat their words, it has been a long year with all the arguements on these forums againts the naysayers. Now we finally have all the proof we need.
----------------------------------------

God I hate these forums. 

I would argue otherwise.  Ignore the trolls, don't feed them, don't give them more to work with.  Trolls live to piss people off the mroe you fight with them the better.  If you DO insist on fighting the trolls, be smart about it

"are you dumb? darkfall is real and the gameplay will be awesome. you're just hurt because your game sucks."
This is not fighting the trolls, or making them eat their words.  This is counter trolling, and does nothing helpful.  It gives the trolls what they want, a reaction. And anyone else that sees it just things our community is a bunch of children.

If you really want to fight the trolls, have detailed posts.  Write out why they are wrong, use structure, avoid personal attacks.  Give them dev quotes, clips, posts, anything thats solid proof that proves your point.   It wont do anything for the trolls, but at least any outside that looks at the forums will see the correct information, and might even think "Wow, look at that helpful member of the community"  THAT is what we need. 

That will do more to silence the trolls than anything else.  Trolls don't care if theres a gameplay trailer, or beta signups.  Big deal.  Could easily be faked.  That doesn't mean anything.  You don't need to silence the trolls, or bash the trolls, you just need to show everyone else that the person IS a troll and doesn't know anything about what they're talking about by giving proof.  Saying "You don't know what you're talking about, troll." is not proof.

Originally posted by arcturussage

Edit:  I'm also not apologizing for any of the hype meter stuff.  If it was done with only one account per person, then I am lenient with that.

Good we agree.

 There are many clans in the game that focus on crafting or defending people. Many guilds have a mature atmosphere and goals.

 What is a mature athmosphere and goals?

Defending people is more mature then killing them? =)

Here is one guilds recruitment thread. They are called Bad Boys for Life (named fondly after the will smith movie)
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=67663

ROFL.  No were not named afer the Will Smith movie at all. It was that kind of name the old UO guilds took in the early years. B@D is a old renowned UO guild from the Europe OSI server. A guild known both for their griefings and a guild that could back their griefings with skill.  Although im sure there is many other as good clans in Darkfall.

At least one of their members has posted in this thread. Another was responsible for the "OMG darkfall number 1 on hype meter soon!@!11" If you look at their members on this site and on darkfall you get an idea about some of their players. Not all of them are bad, or rather B@D. I have seen quite a few that are good decent people.

He's a new member too our guild and only 16 years old, way younger then the average B@D member. Hard to have any opinion on new members but that thread certainly dont disqualify him being a member of our clan. =)

But for example lets take a look at another clan. This one is called Society of the Anvil.
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=67636

ROFL. So you got so pissed that you had to make a comparison of the guild i represent with one of the roleplaying guilds of Darkfall? By the way why dont you give us your clan while your at it?

They have a much nicer layout for their post, and clearly put time into it. They have information about the guild, and what makes them different. From the posts alone you can start to see a difference.

Aye i agree they have a good layout on their application and a nice website. Better then the one we have. We dont have the skill in our guild to make such a nice website so i guess the one we have, have to do. Seems we do just fine though with the website we have. We increased the playerbase in guild alot since we started to recruit. Seems all people dont just look at the quality of websites.  Some wanna join quality PvP clans it seems. =)

I am speaking on behalf of people like the anvil society. The people the understand not everyone is a pimple faced 12 year old that wants to gank and be ganked endlessly. We know that not everyone has the time to constantly be running to their body, or getting started up again every 10 minutes.

Average age in B@D is way over 20. We have none younger then 16.  And i agree gank is so much fun, griefing too. Add competitive PvP with those and its a blast. Might not be something all enjoy but isnt it good we have different taste's?  Would be really boring if all were roleplaying guilds like Anvil. We dont roleplay much in B@D you see.

Look to these guilds for a community, look to these clans for what potential darkfall has. Try to ignore the rest of 'forumfall' as they will hopefully be a minority once the game comes out.

There's alot of roleplayers like Anvil in Darkfall which is good. There will most likely be more people with  B@D playstyle  so have no fears, we will do just fine with the alliances we already made and the ones to come.

 

It's a forum like all others. Maybe a bit less moderated though. The DF forums are not much better, I am sick to death from trolls who hate the game for the sake of hating and from l33t kiddies waiting to pwn and shouting carebears to all they see.

I didn't read all the pages. But what I'm going to say is one thing. The community does matter. If a name comes out of a game being full of griefers and gankers, of people with no respect to each other, even if it is the greatest game in the world, it'll turn out to be a failure.

I personally think the game's graphics is a bit old, compared to what I saw in AoC and what WAR will *hopefully* be. The combat seems nice and fast-paced, it might be truely awesome. But if even part of the community sucks and the game turns to be a thriving spot full of griefers, then few of the mature community will stay long.

And as we all know, MMO games live from the subscription fee. So a plea to all DF fans - don't kill the game before it's out.

Originally posted by arcturussage

---------------------------
Said by someone above me:
To the Fanbois: We have every right to bash the trolls and make them eat their words, it has been a long year with all the arguements on these forums againts the naysayers. Now we finally have all the proof we need.
----------------------------------------

God I hate these forums. 

I would argue otherwise.  Ignore the trolls, don't feed them, don't give them more to work with.  Trolls live to piss people off the mroe you fight with them the better.  If you DO insist on fighting the trolls, be smart about it

"are you dumb? darkfall is real and the gameplay will be awesome. you're just hurt because your game sucks."
This is not fighting the trolls, or making them eat their words.  This is counter trolling, and does nothing helpful.  It gives the trolls what they want, a reaction. And anyone else that sees it just things our community is a bunch of children.

If you really want to fight the trolls, have detailed posts.  Write out why they are wrong, use structure, avoid personal attacks.  Give them dev quotes, clips, posts, anything thats solid proof that proves your point.   It wont do anything for the trolls, but at least any outside that looks at the forums will see the correct information, and might even think "Wow, look at that helpful member of the community"  THAT is what we need. 

That will do more to silence the trolls than anything else.  Trolls don't care if theres a gameplay trailer, or beta signups.  Big deal.  Could easily be faked.  That doesn't mean anything.  You don't need to silence the trolls, or bash the trolls, you just need to show everyone else that the person IS a troll and doesn't know anything about what they're talking about by giving proof.  Saying "You don't know what you're talking about, troll." is not proof.

The problem is we cannot have a good discussion on these boards because the naysayers show up and ruin the thread, derails it.   You have to fight fire with fire, have we learned nothing in history at all? 
 

Its a great theroy indeed to fight evil with goodness but that is not how the real world works.  You fight evil with Evil, that is how you beat it, History has show this over and over.

Originally posted by Stormreaver

How does this relate to Darkfall? I cannot prove that Darkfall doesn't exist. It is impossible. This means that you have to provide the evidence of its existence. What evidence do you have? Some words by developers and 17 minutes of combat with almost no UI shown and no sandbox elements evident. That is not Darkfall. You have to provide actual concrete evidence. A beta test. A gameplay video that shows an actual sandbox game with expanded UI.

Arguing against this point merely shows your ignorance, not only in the gaming sense, but in language and logic as a whole. You must provide proof, because I cannot.

Thank you stormreaver for being an example.  Now folks.  This person, is NOT a troll.  He's not bashing the game, he's just stating that a gameplayer trailer doesn't mean anything.  And he's right.  Anyone with some know how could take a game like RUNE, change some models, make a map or two and create a 17 minute long video.

I'm not saying that this is the case.  I don't think thats the case at all.  But he is not unfounded in his opinion.

To counteract this, we talk to him. Stormreaver, Friend, I understand that you are uneasy about the game.  I can see how someone would find it hard to believe in darkfall from a few words from the devs and a gameplay video (we restate why he is untrusting and unbelieving).  However, isn't that how all games start out?  A few devs saying that they're working on a game?

Yes, for a game like darkfall that has been in development for a while, it is harder to believe it actually exists. Lets look at World of Warcraft.  According to  Wikipedia (not the best source, but good enough for this argumnet).  "Blizzard Entertainment announced World of Warcraft on September 2, 2001" and wasn't released until "November 23, 2004"

So say it took about 3 years for the game to be released from when it was announced.  However, factor in that Blizzard is considerably larger than Aventurine, they have been making games longer, and they had at least 3 games worth of backstory, locations, and characters to draw from for the game.  That alone can easily explain a large portion of the time difference.  Add to that the fact that we don't know how much work, time, effort and money went into WoW before it was even announced.  Anyone that is familiar with Blizzard and their business knows that they generally dont announce things until it is in a position to be shown off.  Look at D3 and SC2.  When they were announced they had some pretty good looking gameplay following with them. 

Darkfall on the other hand announced the game as they were starting from the ground up.  I believe there are interviews of them talking about working on the network architecture back in 2001-2002.  Something that needed to be done before they could even start working on the game itself.  Again something that adds a considerable amount of time to the process.

You also mentioned the lack of UI in the video.  If you look at the pictures on many of the darkfall websites their are screenshots of the UI.  In the video there are also short scenes that show the UI as well.  Darkfall is suppose to have a minimalistic UI.  There isn't much there on purpose as they want you to feel a part of the game.

A common argument is that the UI could have easily been photoshoped/edited in.  Sadly, I have no way to disprove this until people start getting into beta, so for this argument all I can do is say, "just wait an see."

If information like this still does not convince you (or trolls) please let me know why.  What makes you catious or unbelieving?  Many games have very similar set ups for their games.  They show gameplay videos, or just have a few screenshots, yet people trust and believe in the games.  Some games just have cinematic trailers on their website that doesn't show anything about gameplay, yet people follow it. 

What makes darkfall so different that people jump all over it?

To the Original OP

  It is very admirable for "one" person to speak on behalf of the whole community and try to apologize for something that has not happened yet.  

i have read many forums on Darkfall and many threads and YES, I have read many that go like this, "man i can't wait to gank those dam noobs"  or, "my clan is going to pillage and plunder anything and anyone we see"  noticed the word "clan" which means "many"  so after reading this, I feel very discouraged, as so many potential players, who actually want to explore the greatness of the game by him or herself without worrying about getting a knife in the back and loosing some of your stuff. 

FIRST of all, looking at this game my first question is " why should we pay a subscription for this" there are already some PVP MMO's that are quiet good, look original OP i'm sorry this game is gonna FLOP ok, it is outdated, and fine if you guys want to have a small community so be it, because that's what is going too be, a small community of gankers running around for 2 or 3 years until you get tired of it? where's the dungeon element of it? is there one?  where's the adventure?  no, dont think so im staying away, good luck with your Ganking community

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by arcturussage

---------------------------
Said by someone above me:
To the Fanbois: We have every right to bash the trolls and make them eat their words, it has been a long year with all the arguements on these forums againts the naysayers. Now we finally have all the proof we need.
----------------------------------------

God I hate these forums. 

I would argue otherwise.  Ignore the trolls, don't feed them, don't give them more to work with.  Trolls live to piss people off the mroe you fight with them the better.  If you DO insist on fighting the trolls, be smart about it

"are you dumb? darkfall is real and the gameplay will be awesome. you're just hurt because your game sucks."
This is not fighting the trolls, or making them eat their words.  This is counter trolling, and does nothing helpful.  It gives the trolls what they want, a reaction. And anyone else that sees it just things our community is a bunch of children.

If you really want to fight the trolls, have detailed posts.  Write out why they are wrong, use structure, avoid personal attacks.  Give them dev quotes, clips, posts, anything thats solid proof that proves your point.   It wont do anything for the trolls, but at least any outside that looks at the forums will see the correct information, and might even think "Wow, look at that helpful member of the community"  THAT is what we need. 

That will do more to silence the trolls than anything else.  Trolls don't care if theres a gameplay trailer, or beta signups.  Big deal.  Could easily be faked.  That doesn't mean anything.  You don't need to silence the trolls, or bash the trolls, you just need to show everyone else that the person IS a troll and doesn't know anything about what they're talking about by giving proof.  Saying "You don't know what you're talking about, troll." is not proof.

The problem is we cannot have a good discussion on these boards because the naysayers show up and ruin the thread, derails it.   You have to fight fire with fire, have we learned nothing in history at all? 
 

Its a great theroy indeed to fight evil with goodness but that is not how the real world works.  You fight evil with Evil, that is how you beat it, History has show this over and over.

Aye thats how it works.  arcturussage is as i see it living up in the clouds or he isnt aware of what the climate of this site used to be and still is. This Darkfall site have been more or less destroyed by the Darkfall haters and no-sayers.

Whats good to see last weeks is that there been more constructive threads.

Lets hope its here to stay.

Have a nice one

Originally posted by Stormreaver

Originally posted by TdogSkal

The burden of proof lays with the people saying Darkfall is fake or a hoax.   We have all the proof we need Darkfall is real, its up to the Naysayers to prove other wise.
 

Just like its up to the naysayers to prove God is not real, its up to the naysayers to prove that Darkfall is fake or a hoax.

As far as the naysayers having proof?  I have not seen one piece of this so called proof in any post on MMORPG.com since I have been a memember. 

 

No actually, that's a logical fallacy. Go look it up, please. The burden of proof in any situation rests on the party trying to prove something into existence, not on the party trying to prove it doesn't exist. I don't want to get into an argument about theology, but if I were to theoretically not believe in God, then there is no way for me to actually prove that he doesn't exist. Anything I do can be reasoned with. For example, if I were to say "God doesn't exist because you cannot see him," you could just respond "God maybe invisible to the human eye." I cannot counter that. This creates a logical fallacy. What does this mean? Since it is literally impossible to prove something into unexistence, then you have to prove it into existence. It is a rule of language.

How does this relate to Darkfall? I cannot prove that Darkfall doesn't exist. It is impossible. This means that you have to provide the evidence of its existence. What evidence do you have? Some words by developers and 17 minutes of combat with almost no UI shown and no sandbox elements evident. That is not Darkfall. You have to provide actual concrete evidence. A beta test. A gameplay video that shows an actual sandbox game with expanded UI.

Arguing against this point merely shows your ignorance, not only in the gaming sense, but in language and logic as a whole. You must provide proof, because I cannot.

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

Originally posted by susanto1228

To the Original OP

 

  It is very admirable for "one" person to speak on behalf of the whole community and try to apologize for something that has not happened yet.  

 

i have read many forums on Darkfall and many threads and YES, I have read many that go like this, "man i can't wait to gank those dam noobs"  or, "my clan is going to pillage and plunder anything and anyone we see"  noticed the word "clan" which means "many"  so after reading this, I feel very discouraged, as so many potential players, who actually want to explore the greatness of the game by him or herself without worrying about getting a knife in the back and loosing some of your stuff. 

 

FIRST of all, looking at this game my first question is " why should we pay a subscription for this" there are already some PVP MMO's that are quiet good, look original OP i'm sorry this game is gonna FLOP ok, it is outdated, and fine if you guys want to have a small community so be it, because that's what is going too be, a small community of gankers running around for 2 or 3 years until you get tired of it? where's the dungeon element of it? is there one?  where's the adventure?  no, dont think so im staying away, good luck with your Ganking community

Well as far as your dungeon element, it is as far as we understand very dynamic.  When you find a dungeon their will be a differenet monster hiding in that dungeon each time you go to clear it.
 

The adventure?  That is what is great about Darkfall, its like the pick your own adventure books.... Your only limitation on your adventure is your creativity as Darkfall is all about player freedom and choice.  Yes PvP will be a big part of the world but so will PvE... I will bet their will be players that do very little PvP in Darkfall.

whole lot of energy being wasted here.

this thread also.

Originally posted by susanto1228

FIRST of all, looking at this game my first question is " why should we pay a subscription for this" there are already some PVP MMO's that are quiet good, look original OP i'm sorry this game is gonna FLOP ok, it is outdated, and fine if you guys want to have a small community so be it, because that's what is going too be, a small community of gankers running around for 2 or 3 years until you get tired of it? where's the dungeon element of it? is there one?  where's the adventure?  no, dont think so im staying away, good luck with your Ganking community

You are certainly entitled to think that but, personally, I think it is too early to tell.  Look at AoC for example, a lot of people thought that was going to be an amazing game, and by my count, it turned out to be a flop.

Yes, many of the graphics look out dated, I wont deny that.  They have said that the video was filmed on medium settings, and all we really have is their word.  However, if you look at an older gameplay video, the graphics do look noticable better.  Again, I hope that once beta comes out we will be in a better position to disprove a lot of these concerns.

You asked about the dungeon element and the adventure.  The game does have dungeons and mobs.  The mobs are suppose to be some of the best in mmos.  You can't just sit there as a tank and hold agro, the mobs aren't that mindless.  There are caves and dungeons and goblin outposts.  They aren't instanced though, so if those are the dungeons you are looking for, than no, this game is not for you. 

You ask about adventure, I think that this game, more than any other is full of adventure, or at least what I consider adventure.  You never know what you will find in darkfall.  Say every day for a week, you go to this goblin outpost and kill a bunch of them every day.  You might go there the next day and the outpost is gone, the goblins aren't going to stick around if they're constantly getting slaughtered every day.  If you want those goblins, you need to find them again.  Sounds like an adventure to me.  If you spend every day going to the same mine to get ore, you might be in for a big surprise when tomorrow it is inhabited by a dragon.  Is this not an adventure?  The world is massive by comparison, and there are plent of places to visit and explore.  If these doesn't sound like adventure ready experiences for you, I'm not sure if there is anything else I can say to convince you.

As for the subscription, that is up to you.  If this isn't a game for you, I don't expect you to pay for it.  I personally wouldn't pay for WoW.  I don't find the game fun and to me it seems like a chatroom with avatars, but that is just my opinion.

well, I have to admire your loyalty to DF, you defend the game and that's great. I've been there, defending a game until you can't defend no more and you yourself(talking about me) can't take anymore.

I wish Darkfall Luck I never wish anything bad on MMO's, I think the community as a whole is divided, we have a finicky crowd, we have been lied too and never paid attention to.   

If DF does have serious problems with large ganking clans taking over servers and declning subscriptions then I hope DF takes another approach and sees the errors in their model. 

The first indication of this is IF they start to merge servers early only time will tell. GL

The real problem here is that this game has taken way too long to develop. Ppl should be discussing the perticulars of  gameplay instead of if the game exists.

I hope that beta is out very soon or go gold or this will get worse.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

From California State University

Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

Originally posted by Stormreaver

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

I would ask that you both please stop debating argument styles.  Storm, I have a feeling if he doesn't understand your point yet, he probably never will.  That is one of the hardest parts of forums and trying to get people to see your view.  After a certain point you have to realize that someone might not see your point.  Something I'm guilty of not always doing.

I agree with your point that we need to prove darkfall exists besides a few fakeable videos and screenshots.

I think the main part of your posted I wanted to comment on was that the videos don't show this is a sandbox game.  Partially because thats hard to do.  How do you show people that you can spend your time being the worlds best crafter, or just running around in the woods looking for flowers or interesting locations.  Its easy to /say/ you have freedom but its much harder to /show/ that freedom.

Again, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I have high hopes that once beta starts and an NDA is lifted the game will gain a lot more creadability and understanding.  Hopefully once people start seeing the differences between all of the videos people posts and the things people can do in the game the sandbox element will become more clear.

Originally posted by Stormreaver

Originally posted by TdogSkal

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

 

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

From California State University

Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

Look I understand what you are saying but you do not understand what I am saying, we are both talking about the same thing....

Burden of proof:  "the ordinary rule is that "the necessity of proof lies with he who complains." For example, a person has to prove that someone is guilty (in a criminal case) or liable (in a civil case) depending on the allegations; a person is not required to prove his or her own innocence, it is rebuttably presumed"

Darkfall does not have to prove it is real, that is already presumed, therefor the burden of proof is on those that say it does not exist.

Again, In theory you are correct, you are presumed innocence until proven guility but in reality you must prove you are innocence while they are trying to prove you are guility.  Ever been in a court room or watch a trial on TV, you would understand the defence is trying to prove they are innocence.

"I would ask that you both please stop debating argument styles. Storm, I have a feeling if he doesn't understand your point yet, he probably never will. That is one of the hardest parts of forums and trying to get people to see your view. After a certain point you have to realize that someone might not see your point. Something I'm guilty of not always doing.

I agree with your point that we need to prove darkfall exists besides a few fakeable videos and screenshots.

I think the main part of your posted I wanted to comment on was that the videos don't show this is a sandbox game. Partially because thats hard to do. How do you show people that you can spend your time being the worlds best crafter, or just running around in the woods looking for flowers or interesting locations. Its easy to /say/ you have freedom but its much harder to /show/ that freedom.

Again, maybe I'm being idealistic, but I have high hopes that once beta starts and an NDA is lifted the game will gain a lot more creadability and understanding. Hopefully once people start seeing the differences between all of the videos people posts and the things people can do in the game the sandbox element will become more clear."

Aye, my apologies for hijacking the thread. I agree that showing actual sandbox gameplay is difficult, but if Aventurine wasn't so shy about showing DFO's UI scheme then it would become a whole lot easier. Show crafting. Show interaction among players and NPCs. Show the building process of a house. I don't know how deep Darkfall supposedly goes into the sandbox aspect, but there are many ways to show it. They might not be as interesting as combat to some people, but it proves that the game exists.

I have the same hope as you, only that I'm not expecting a beta any time in the near future.

Erm.....3 more months, just 3 more months we will know, imagine the wait for all these 7 years... cool it dude!

And again... Hi evil twin!

Originally posted by Stormreaver

Originally posted by TdogSkal

How is that a logical arguement?  It is impossiable for me to prove Darkfall exist so the burden of proof is on proving its real?  Seriously please think about that and tell me that has any logic to it at all.
 

The burden of proof always lies on both sides, never on one side.  You must prove it does not exist and I must prove it does exist.   Just like in the American court system, You must prove I did the crime, while I must prove I did not do the crime.   Its simple logic.

With any good debate the burden of proof is on both sides.  If it is impossiable to proof that Darkfall exist then logically Darkfall does exist.   How hard is that to understand?

I have developer logs, Video's, Screenshots, Beta sign up pages, a publisher as my proof.  You only have your opinion as proof.  Logic againt states that I have the proof and you do not..... Their for its on you to disprove my proof which you cannot.

What you got next?

 

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance): This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

From California State University

Please please check your facts. In fact, this website uses the same example you did: an American Courtroom. Ever heard of the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty?" I believe the key word there is "proven," implying that the burden of proof rests on the party trying to prove something into existence (the prosecution) as opposed to the party trying to prove something into unexistence (the defense). I cannot possibly prove Darkfall into unexistence, therefore you must prove it into existence.

What evidence do you provide? Developer logs? I could write those myself in my spare time, whether I have a game in development or not. Videos? I've seen claims that these were faked, but I consider them to be real. Even so, they offer no conclusive evidence that points to Darkfall. There is a few seconds (compiled) of UI footage, and absolutely nothing that would point to sandbox gameplay (which is what Darkfall is all about). Screenshots? Again, easily fakeable. Beta sign up pages? Yea, I could go make a beta sign up page for Dog Trainer Online but that doesn't make it a real game.

Aventurine has to show some realy footage of Darkfall; show some of the features that seperate Darkfall from the other games out there or let us play the game so we can find them for ourselves. Until that happens, I have every right to not believe in Darkfall.

This argument is void really because the "prosecution" could just as easily be the folks saying that the dev team are lying whilst the "defense" could be the people saying that they are not, as is normally the case when some form of wrong doing is suspected. 

The burden of proof is on the accusers, not the accused.

Therefore it is the DF devs that should be thought of as "innocent until prove guilty" as you put it. 

In the face the defenses evidence i.e. testaments from people who say they have played the game, screen shots on third party websites, contract for distribution with a third party company, the video's ect what can doubters produce as their evidence that the dev team are lying?  I don't think any rational jury would be able give a guilty verdict.

Anyway back to the main point:  I APOLOGISE FOR NOTHING