Agreed with rikillii and gilvane. Cheaper and Different. WoW already has the mass appeal, and with how many years now to improve upon it?

I'd like to see more 'niche' games that try to satisfy a certain market and not just adding a little bit of everything only to dissapoint everyone. Besides, millions of customers hardly means anything MMO wise when they're all split up on different shards. You don't need millions of players for enjoyable gameplay, just for making more money.

Of course, it's hard to sell "Why don't you make less money from a smaller number of people than... more money from more people...?", but when you consider that most games lately that try to appeal to everyone have not came close to expectations, I think it's reasonable to try to make *some* money than no money.

I know MMOs require more depth than any other genre, but developers simply can't deliver the depth necessary to compete with other established games on release. They need to start simple and with an enjoyable game that people like playing and THEN add on from there.

Originally posted by marowit

After i read this i am holding my fingers crosset even tighter as i did before for WAR, if it fails it would mean the end of quality mmos and even more trash will be thrown at us...

If War fails it will be because it is trash.  If it's good it won't fail.

If trash games could succeed that is when you would see nothing but trash games being thrown at us.  Why would anyone try to make a quality game if they knew they could just push out a half finished piece of crap and rake in tons of money?

War has every oppurtunity to succeed.  It's a high profile game that lots and lots of people are ready to jump into and try.  The ONLY way it can fail is if the developers have screwed it up.

If it does fail I'm not going to shed any tears for EA / Mythiic or Mark Jacobs.  Business is a dog eat dog world.  Too bad, get your shit together or get out.

That whole little sob story from Jacobs, to me it sounds like scare mongering to convince people that if they don't play War the MMORPG genre is doomed.  That's Bullshit.  As long as there is money to be made with MMORPGs then there will be people making MMORPGs.

The industry will go through periods of adjustment and that's natural but to imply that it might be the end of MMORPGS is just silly.

And you know how people are always complaining that no game companies will try anything new; that they just keep making the same game over and over with different graphics.  Well the industry probably would have to be shaken up a little and knocked on it's ass for a while before that will change.  As long as the big money keeps coming in from the standard formula then the standard formula won't change. 

Ok, and even if all the big gaming companies and the old guard developers got out of the MMORPG market it wouldn't be the end of MMORPGs.  If all the big fish in the pond died out it would just make room for the little fish to grow.

I think Mark "hit the nail on the head" as they say.

I think he's right that the quote "failure" of AoC puts even more pressure on WAR to be the MMO that is finally successful enough to be a serious alternative for the WoW faithful.

I agree that if WAR does indeed flop, it's going to have a negative effect on the industry. Will any current AAA titles in development in NA cease production and closed down because of it? No I don't think so, but it'll definetly effect them.

On the flip side, if WAR is a great success it'll "prove" to the industry that another MMO can exist and be very prosperous in the post-WoW MMO marketplace. This should have a bolstering effect on many of the AAA titles currently in development.

One thing to note, if WAR fails it's not because of any outside factors... it'll be becuase of the game itself. It'll be because it doesn't live up to the hype and because it's too unpolished etc.

After being in closed beta for the past few months, I can say that I believe that game delivers on all that they have promised, that it is at a mostly polished state, and that it will be as successful as the hype builds it to be.

I think their goal of 1 million sustained subs is not at all out of the question, and thus it will be a great boost to the MMO market in general.

I've seen a few posters claiming to dislike WARhammer online, their writing looks suspicious to me, and sure the game probably isn't for everyone but from what I've seen read and heard WAR will be amazing, everyone who has actually beta tested it has said it was TOO FUN and a GREAT PvP MMORPG, for those that hate it they probably hate pvp to begin with, when I heard that the cities and few dungeons were instanced yet most of the outer world is fully open mmorpg non-instanced I realised it sounded like the opposite of Guild Wars in it's instancing structure, in Guild Wars the only time you see a player or group is if you bank sit in town or join their group to fight with a few players, in WAR you only see other players not when their bank sitting or in a tiny ass group but you see them when their actively playing the game in the masses, it will cause all the bank sitters to automatically hate the game, and the PvP element allows so many benefits that non-PvPrs would benefit less than the PvPrs but I think anyone could still have a good time solo-ing if they wanted, but if you like to solo forever you should pick up a copy of the legend of Zelda and stop whining about having to interact with other players, the interactivity sounds groundbreaking in the style, the graphics blow the crap out of w.o.w. and any other fantasy mmo I've seen to date, the race and sex options are very wide, there's nothing a new player could possibly hate about this game unless they were a die hard bitter w.o.w. player, in fact I bet there are at least 10 paid or non paid w.o.w.'ers that are purposely posting negative things about WAR, why? Because their scared that there's something better out there, ask those players if they beta tested it, ask them details, they won't be able to answer because if they had actually played it they would have enjoyed it again unless they were coward non pvpers.

The funnest part of an MMORPG is interacting with many players, killing and being killed by non-npcs is the funnest thing I've experienced in any MMORPG, even if it's as a newbie, to me it only makes me want to play the game more, to those that turn away from challenges and cower in the corner of their mother's basement sucking their thumbs waiting for wrath of the lich king, I have a news flash, w.o.w.  never was innovative, you only think it was or is because it's the first MMO you've ever played, to me UO had the best PvP to date, since I only played the cartoony w.o.w. up to lvl 3 and immediately logged off forever unimpressed I am not even going to be comparing WAR to w.o.w., I'm going to compare it to UO, and I think it'll blow UO out of the water, since their owned by the same company I don't think ea will mind. 

Well I have to agree with Mr. Jacobs in part.  It is important that War succeed, but not for the reasons he lists.  The asians are in full production mode and putting out MMO's like they were pancakes at a pancake breakfast. 

It would be really nice to play another decent western MMO again.  Nothing wrong with Asian ones mind you, just that they are not my cup of tea.

I just hope Mythic has learned from all it's mistakes with DAoC.  At least Mythic realized some of them and put out classic servers, what SOE should have done for SWG years ago.

I don't intend to play War, but I do hope it achieves a modicum of success, if not more.

Take it from the other side.

What if WAR get like 5 million Euro and NA subs (which is similar to WoW in occident).

Does that mean other MMOs will have it easier or will a "sandbox" style game like Eve be even less likely.  Will people conclude that you need games that share what WAR and WoW share.

War is not a WoW clone, but just like DAOC it shares most of the things that the EQ lineage of games do.

If you have a second example to show the EQ lineage is the only thing that get big subs people might think its been "proved".

I will play WAR most likely and hopefully I will like it.  But frankly I am just plain tired of the whole EQ-style sub genre.  That is not a shot at EQ or WOW or WAR or LOTRO.  They are all prefectly fine games for what they are.  It is just me, I am simply tired of the interface and gameplay.

If WAR succeeds big there maybe more MMOs in development but I would say they are more likely to be more homogenous.  Maybe it will only be that way at first and in the end it will work out differently.  But that is what i am guessing.

That's mostly rubbish to be honest.

The reason I think this is that the gaming industry is now almost on par with the movie industry in terms of revenue.

Big movie studios still keep pumping out films that cost $50m or more several times a year that tank and have been doing so for decades.

The return on a succesful mmo is considerably more than a blockbuster movie.

$50-100m isn't very much for large media companies to invest in product.  If WAR tanks it won't have a long term impact on EA's share price so the owners (the shareholders) won't be particularly phased by it.

It might hurt smaller studios in the short term, but won't be the end of mmo's.

Originally posted by Razimus

I've seen a few posters claiming to dislike WARhammer online, their writing looks suspicious to me, and sure the game probably isn't for everyone but from what I've seen read and heard WAR will be amazing, everyone who has actually beta tested it has said it was TOO FUN and a GREAT PvP MMORPG, for those that hate it they probably hate pvp to begin with, when I heard that the cities and few dungeons were instanced yet most of the outer world is fully open mmorpg non-instanced I realised it sounded like the opposite of Guild Wars in it's instancing structure, in Guild Wars the only time you see a player or group is if you bank sit in town or join their group to fight with a few players, in WAR you only see other players not when their bank sitting or in a tiny ass group but you see them when their actively playing the game in the masses, it will cause all the bank sitters to automatically hate the game, and the PvP element allows so many benefits that non-PvPrs would benefit less than the PvPrs but I think anyone could still have a good time solo-ing if they wanted, but if you like to solo forever you should pick up a copy of the legend of Zelda and stop whining about having to interact with other players, the interactivity sounds groundbreaking in the style, the graphics blow the crap out of w.o.w. and any other fantasy mmo I've seen to date, the race and sex options are very wide, there's nothing a new player could possibly hate about this game unless they were a die hard bitter w.o.w. player, in fact I bet there are at least 10 paid or non paid w.o.w.'ers that are purposely posting negative things about WAR, why? Because their scared that there's something better out there, ask those players if they beta tested it, ask them details, they won't be able to answer because if they had actually played it they would have enjoyed it again unless they were coward non pvpers.

The funnest part of an MMORPG is interacting with many players, killing and being killed by non-npcs is the funnest thing I've experienced in any MMORPG, even if it's as a newbie, to me it only makes me want to play the game more, to those that turn away from challenges and cower in the corner of their mother's basement sucking their thumbs waiting for wrath of the lich king, I have a news flash, w.o.w.  never was innovative, you only think it was or is because it's the first MMO you've ever played, to me UO had the best PvP to date, since I only played the cartoony w.o.w. up to lvl 3 and immediately logged off forever unimpressed I am not even going to be comparing WAR to w.o.w., I'm going to compare it to UO, and I think it'll blow UO out of the water, since their owned by the same company I don't think ea will mind. 

Why are you ripping on WoW?  Warhammer is very similar to WoW except that it is more focused on PvP.  The graphics are very similar.  They don't blow anyone out of the water.  They use the same low poly cartoonish design for their models that WoW does.  They have an open seamless world and instanced battlegrounds/dungeons simliar to WoW.  The only differences are that Warhammer has public quests and is focused more on open wolrd PvP.  WoW still beats it in PvE combat though IMO.  Both games will fill a niche.

MMO games fail becuase they are crap.

The companies that make them ,deserve to fail also.Currently the mmo companies have been doing all they can to try and dodge the simple fact they turn out crap products.

They are fast enough to point at other companies and hint at this, but never admit even to themselves that they are just as bad.

Devs,including this one,make it sound like they are the only hope.That if they fail, so goes the industry.They tell you  "give us more time and more of your money and we can make things right".

But its a lie.If they could have made things right, they would have done so to begin with.Its about incompetence.

Take a normal 5 year old and give him every chance he wants to get a calculus eqaution right.The poor kid can try for years ,and fail everytime.He simply doesnt have the knowledge or skill to get it right.

Thats what MMO companies are right now.People who dont have a clue how to do it right, but keep wanting to try on your dime.

The absolute best thing that could happen to the MMO industry right now, would be for all the current dev teams to go out of business and move on to some industry they might actually be good at.

This way,a new "generation" can take a shot at it.

The money and time the current teams waste,could be better used by people who actually have a clue.

The ability to make that happen is in your hands.When the next "latest best MMO'  comes down the drain,it might be complete crap yet again, but were you smart enough NOT to buy it ?Or did you just reward incompetence yet again ?

Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by Razimus

I've seen a few posters claiming to dislike WARhammer online, their writing looks suspicious to me, and sure the game probably isn't for everyone but from what I've seen read and heard WAR will be amazing, everyone who has actually beta tested it has said it was TOO FUN and a GREAT PvP MMORPG, for those that hate it they probably hate pvp to begin with, when I heard that the cities and few dungeons were instanced yet most of the outer world is fully open mmorpg non-instanced I realised it sounded like the opposite of Guild Wars in it's instancing structure, in Guild Wars the only time you see a player or group is if you bank sit in town or join their group to fight with a few players, in WAR you only see other players not when their bank sitting or in a tiny ass group but you see them when their actively playing the game in the masses, it will cause all the bank sitters to automatically hate the game, and the PvP element allows so many benefits that non-PvPrs would benefit less than the PvPrs but I think anyone could still have a good time solo-ing if they wanted, but if you like to solo forever you should pick up a copy of the legend of Zelda and stop whining about having to interact with other players, the interactivity sounds groundbreaking in the style, the graphics blow the crap out of w.o.w. and any other fantasy mmo I've seen to date, the race and sex options are very wide, there's nothing a new player could possibly hate about this game unless they were a die hard bitter w.o.w. player, in fact I bet there are at least 10 paid or non paid w.o.w.'ers that are purposely posting negative things about WAR, why? Because their scared that there's something better out there, ask those players if they beta tested it, ask them details, they won't be able to answer because if they had actually played it they would have enjoyed it again unless they were coward non pvpers.

The funnest part of an MMORPG is interacting with many players, killing and being killed by non-npcs is the funnest thing I've experienced in any MMORPG, even if it's as a newbie, to me it only makes me want to play the game more, to those that turn away from challenges and cower in the corner of their mother's basement sucking their thumbs waiting for wrath of the lich king, I have a news flash, w.o.w.  never was innovative, you only think it was or is because it's the first MMO you've ever played, to me UO had the best PvP to date, since I only played the cartoony w.o.w. up to lvl 3 and immediately logged off forever unimpressed I am not even going to be comparing WAR to w.o.w., I'm going to compare it to UO, and I think it'll blow UO out of the water, since their owned by the same company I don't think ea will mind. 

 

Why are you ripping on WoW?  Warhammer is very similar to WoW except that it is more focused on PvP.  The graphics are very similar.  They don't blow anyone out of the water.  They use the same low poly cartoonish design for their models that WoW does.  They have an open seamless world and instanced battlegrounds/dungeons simliar to WoW.  The only differences are that Warhammer has public quests and is focused more on open wolrd PvP.  WoW still beats it in PvE combat though IMO.  Both games will fill a niche.

Originally posted by Flyte27

 

Why are you ripping on WoW?  Warhammer is very similar to WoW except that it is more focused on PvP.  The graphics are very similar.  They don't blow anyone out of the water.  They use the same low poly cartoonish design for their models that WoW does.  They have an open seamless world and instanced battlegrounds/dungeons simliar to WoW.  The only differences are that Warhammer has public quests and is focused more on open wolrd PvP.  WoW still beats it in PvE combat though IMO.  Both games will fill a niche.

I totally agree. WAR is like WOW , thats why i believe that will be a success.

If not,  then WOW will be beaten only by itself.

Im sick of seeing how companies focus so much on subs numbers and marketing manuvers, a good game doesn't need 5 years of daily advertisement to succeed, a good game doesn't need to beat wow's numbers at the release, WoW started with what, 240k players? Improvements for the game and mouth to mouth viral marketing, that will bring you your first million, cattering average Joe and forgetting about the hardcore part of your fans, that will bring you your second million.

What a post! It's great to see Mark Jacobs worries and thinks long and hard about the very things the players themselves worry about. I know he's being honest when he says he isn't just blowing his own horn here, that he really hopes it will change the industry of mmorpgs a bit for the better. It is true, that if War fails then we are in for some dark times ahead. This isn't just about Mythic, it's about all our future mmorpgs.

Even the people who do not like Warhammer for whatever reason, can't argue with the man that it's success would help the genre.

Once again I am reinforced completely in my belief that Warhammer is the game for me, and that they have every reason in the world at Mythic to make this game better and better with each passing month.

Originally posted by Nekral

Originally posted by Flyte27

 

Why are you ripping on WoW?  Warhammer is very similar to WoW except that it is more focused on PvP.  The graphics are very similar.  They don't blow anyone out of the water.  They use the same low poly cartoonish design for their models that WoW does.  They have an open seamless world and instanced battlegrounds/dungeons simliar to WoW.  The only differences are that Warhammer has public quests and is focused more on open wolrd PvP.  WoW still beats it in PvE combat though IMO.  Both games will fill a niche.

 

I totally agree. WAR is like WOW , thats why i believe that will be a success.

If not,  then WOW will be beaten only by itself.

Warhammer isn't like Wow, you have it the other way around, Wow is like Warhammer. If you knew the history of the tabletop game, how Wow ripped the story off and changed the names of the Dwarfs for example, you'd know this. Sure people will rebutt by saying both Warhammer and Wow ripped off the Lord of the Rings, well yes to a certain extent, but the storyline of the Dwarfs in peticular is closer to the Warhammer universe than it is Lord of the Rings which actually has little to say about Dwarfs, there are stacks upon stacks of pages in the Warhammer tabletop game world, and it's a game that has been out since 1983, as opposed to Wow 2004.

That's pretty accurate, Warhammer has none of Warcraft's hideous textures and low polygons, nor it's cartoonish models that I just cant immerse myself in. I for one hate Warcraft and the only reason I ever played was for my girlfriends benefit. I quit this year and can't stand it anymore. The only reason Warhammer has any semblance of Warcraft at all is that Warcraft was orginally supposed to become a Warhammer game but they were denied and it all got changed around to avoid copy right lawsuits. Thank-god Mythic has the liscense now and not Blizzard way back then when it's graphics were sub-par even in those days and are nearly obsolete today.

After playing Warhammer myself, I can assure you that it has an art style far closer to the table top game and to true fantasy than anything else out there. Sure it has alot of reminders of some of the best games out there at times, but that to me is a mmorpg company taking what has succeeded in the past on a whole, and improving it for the future. It's not a copy of any game out there, it's the evolution of mmorpgs in general. Warhammer is just plain fun to play, it's the first game where you jump right into the fun and get pregressively more immersed and epic feeling.

There were many times in Warhammer PW that I felt like I was inside a really great fantasy book. I had beautiful reminders of Lord of the Rings, particularly the Hobbit. With the amazing huge trolls more like traditional fantasy than other games. It was the very feel of magic itself when playing this game.

Mark Jacobs seems to know exactly what to do, because he himself is an avid lover of fantasy lore and games. He is a developer who is a fan himself, and is trying to make something not only for he and his friends, but for us all.

I hope this game gets all the success it deserves.

It doesn't matter which came first.  The fact is they are very similar.  Those saying the artwork is a lot more realistic must not have played the game yet.  Obviously the quality of the characters is higher then Warcraft as it is a newer game, but it uses the same low poly models to allow for lots of people to be in the same area at once without a lot of lag.  This results in the characters and the environment looking a bit cartoony like WoW.  Theres nothing wrong with that IMO.

I don't know how better to explain it, they graphics are not the same quality at all. If they were the same as Warcraft's, I likely wouldnt be able to stomach playing it.. As for your comment about how we must not have played if this is what we think, it's the opposite. People who have not played or not played long at all will look at early screenshots and say, "Gee, that looks like WoW.". This would be a completely wrong assumption, because after playing it for even the weekend, you will see the the atmosphere and look and feel is closer to a more alive lotro than anything else.

I have to disagree with you.  I have played the game recently.  Yes the textures are going to be a bit different as it's a different game being done by different artists, but the models over all similar to WoW and they are cartoony looking IMO.  As I said I was in the beta and am not pulling this from screenshots.  In fact if you look at the screenshots it doesn't look much like WoW at all, but if you actually have the game on your computer and are playing it the models and areas have a very similar feel to them IMO. 

I know that to Me, they are nothing like Warcraft and that that is a Very good thing for me, personally. To each their own?

Originally posted by Rabidaskal

Hmmm good post there by Mark.

I plan to play WAR, but more importantly I think the industry as a whole needs a good shot in the arm.  Too many spectacular failures are scaring away the money and the innovation and are hurting MMOs as a whole. 

     There also has to be some accountability from the companies themselves.....Games like Vanguard and AoC put way too much money into development, especially when you consider the end results...... Whether WAR is a success or failure I think we are going to see the majority of games in this genre cut way down on their development expenses with many of them going f2p....A big part of the problem is that there are simply too many MMOs for the amount of players.....If we had say 50 MMOs instead of 400+ then the MMO market would be flourishing.....I think WAR will be successful if for no other reason than it is similar to WoW.....I think it will attract a portion of WoWs playerbase that are bored and tired of playing it......